Why Didn't The Flow Arts Go Mainstream?
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- čas přidán 5. 09. 2024
- A decade ago we thought Flow Arts were set to go mainstream--so what happened? Poi, hula hoop, fans, and fire spinning in general seemed like they were about to become the next big thing, with EDM and circus becoming major forces in the pop culture imagination. And now we're a decade later and it seems like the art may have actually shrunk? Come along as I investigate why flow artists remain underground and kind of obscure. And I investigate how we can still take the world of wand, gloving, silk aerial work, rope dart, and many more into pop culture awareness the same way yoga, skateboarding, and parkour are!
#FlowArts #FireDancing #PoiSpinning
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A huge thank you to this month's Flow Supporters:
Lane Lillquist
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Elisabeth
Christina S
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Michael LaHood
BJ ✨
Vitaly Gashpar
Alison Keroack
Wynne Hunkler
Christaff
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Zachary Stephens
Nina Simon
JF
Fairy moon Deva (Jill Danskin)
Carys Matar
Manuela Bellydance
Austin Yo
Phlip Purple
Kate Marusina
Tina McDonald
Jessica Nunno
Skyla Harris
Stephan Scheiderer
Sarah H.
Beki Burg
Anna
Sheri Morgan
Mindi Luke
David Diaz
Radek Michalik
Julia Ryder
Paul Kim
David Sturman
Eric Montijo
Jay
Patricia Lee
Nate Techlin
Kelly King
Brian Huddleston
'@whistlepunk.labs
Xeph Grand
Ania Swiniarska
Charles Sauvageau
Cara Lee Macdonald
Blingtron
Alex Ciminian
Dana Ma
Amanda
Jim Martin
Bloodsong
Purple Lotus
Aaron Freeman
Siryn
Chad A Eckman
Alfred Blackman III
jimid
Steffi
Arlene Smith
Mr Mom
Will384
Auron Wyse
Jeff J
Lunaris
Dean Ritts
Parmita Dalal
Finn Bell
Scott Coley
S Jones
Laura Conner
Flow Mayhem
Jeremiah Johnston
Russell Paac
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Alix Moore
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I went to my first flow festival knowing only one person. There was a nightly tea tent that had open tables for people to join whenever they needed a break from the fire circle. I will never forget sitting down and being told by someone that I wasn't good enough to be there. That memory has fueled my motivation to never make others feel the way I did.
That sounds like a delightful way to come into the flow arts! I'm so glad you had that experience!
@@DrexFactor Uhh, not exactly delightful being told I shouldn't be there.. 😅
Oh snap…I definitely missed a word or two when I first read this. I am so sorry that was your first experience with us but glad that you stuck with us. And I apologize for skimming that paragraph when there was clearly more going on than my cursory read revealed. 😜
@@DrexFactor it's all good. There isn't a social community I've been a part of that hasn't had some amount of gatekeeping. I have worked to accept that it has nothing to do with me, and often comes from insecurity.
I had someone told me I wasn't good enough and it almost got to me. Luckily I kept going.
I feel it's definitely not the norm. For the most part people were accepting . Glad you didn't quit ❤️
i have recently started learning staff spinning, and i definitely get wierd looks everywhere i take my staff, excluding only malcolm x park
I'm purely a fan, not a performer, so take this for what it's worth. One of the major differences between the flow arts and dance is how much space the artists tend to cover. A lot of the flow artists that I've seen perform like whip artist in the sense that they stand mostly still or move as little as necessary in order to perform their trick. Additionally, when you do see a performer who builds a routine around the tricks, they tend to be firmly focused on a single simple trait (ex: Fierceness for fire sword or Seductiveness for Silk Rope). Sadly, this leads to a lack of emotionally dynamic performances and a limited duration of interest for the audience. My favorite flow video involved a staff that the performer manipulates with his whole body. He slide on the ground and leaps through the air while moving from room to room during the flow art performance, creating a multi-noted viewing experience.
I personally don't know any performer that doesn't move around unless they've just started. Not everyone is that level yet.
I've tried really hard to try different styles and I regularly flow to different kinds of music. Classical, rap, edm. I take inspiration from Nick Woolsey and just go outside and play around.
Watching this makes me realize just how fortunate I am to be a part of the flow community here in Seattle. I'm not saying our community is completely devoid of the gatekeeping type, but the vast majority of us are very welcoming and accepting of all sorts of new props and people in the community, and so many of the people who show up to the flow jams here are more than willing to teach newcomers how to use their props. It's also a welcome change that instead of being out in the middle of nowhere with nobody else around for 500 miles, most of the events hosted here take place in the middle of the city, so more people both local and from out of town can much more easily access them. I feel like our community here should be a blueprint for the flow community as a whole in so many ways. Honestly, if it wasn't for their openness I would've been tossing clubs to myself at home all weekend instead of hanging out with you and everyone else at the Flow Fest.
I'm in Seattle currently myself and I have to agree that I think the community here is doing an incredible job of being inclusive, accessible, and also putting on a professional face. Well done, all!
@@DrexFactor Everyone did an amazing job and I'm truly blessed to be a part of this community
Second that - there is not a Seattle spin jam I've been to that I haven't been able to ask for help learning something new. 🧡 Most of the progress I have made is thanks to the SFAC community.
I just wish there was a flow arts group on the west side of Puget Sound. It would cost me $45 round trip to come to the fire jams each time I attend one, which I haven't so far due to my costs to get there. Someday, I hope there'll be a group over here on the west side. :)
@@LauraS1we started an Eastside jam group (Bellevue) this year! It's not too hard to organize if you have the time to host. I just post on social media to remind people and then bring my speaker/music. 🧡
You hit it right on the nail buddy I been spinning since 05 it has started dieing for sure but my passion for it always burned it started with festivals and drugs but when I stopped partying so hard it always stayed with me as a beautiful art any show I perform for fam and friends they love and I try to encourage them especially new people who want to learn I show em basics and encourage them to watch tutorials to learn more to keep it alive
I'm so glad to hear that you've held onto it even as your life has changed and that it still fills a need for you!
From the perspective of a nobody spinner from Singapore, I cannot help but agree with each of your points to a certain extent. I started spinning in 07 and for 4 and a half years could only go so far into 3 beat weave back front and windmill with a few stalls.
Fast forward to now I’m 33 and am the fittest I’ve ever been, happiest I’ve ever been, and poi has played a huge part in that.
I think this counter-culture coupled with hyper*individuality has made the flow arts quite difficult to access. Till now I’ve put in the work, performed at festivals, and developed a small curriculum that teach locally - but I still am fearful of ever coming out as a “performer “ or “poi spinner” as the level overseas (RUS + US + EU) is just so high.
I’ve been debating about whether or not I am qualified to even be allowed to share my flow journey by holding workshops in fear of the backlash of the flow community going “well he’s pretty trash isn’t he”
And sure I can go do a couple of classes here and there but I’ll never…. KNOW yknow?
It’s also that I take into consideration the culture you just expounded upon Drex, that I do want to preserve that kind of culture - at least the mystique of it. But it’s my goal to definitely try to make things more accessible to everyone csuse flow arts is a wonderful thing to do and have around. It especially for a person growing up with ADHD 😅
Thank you for your opinions Drex !
Being a good teacher is what really matters. I had hooping teachers who were good performers but couldn't teach at all.
I found it interesting you mentioned parkour in here as having a low barriar to entry. I picked up flow arts (specifically poi spinning) as a means of taking a rest from my life style of parkour training. It gave me something to do that wasn't physically difficult but still offered a challenging activty i could take part in. For a while flow arts became one of the main activities i was focusing on and it really helped me challenge myself in new ways. Parkour is very difficult for most people to begin with however.. Things that are as simple as doing a standing jump onto something of low height without knowing proper technique usually discourages people form trying anything else because of how alien it is for people to do so in a control manner. I don't think either Flow Arts or Parkour have a low entry barriar however i do see A LOT of similaries in the two practices. Both look easy at first until you actually try them, and both have very deep cultures that teach disipline and good work ethics. I love being part of both communities. unfortunately i've since taken a break from my local fire community due to its high levels of drama and rampid drug use so parkour has become my main focus again.
Very valid points. I think I meant that more in the context of not needing anything other than your own body to get started--not needing to buy special equipment or anything like that but you're absolutely right that parkour is incredibly challenging. That line was more a reference to what inspired this video. There's a British Parkour guy on CZcams who did a video on why he thinks parkour never went mainstream and I loved the video so much that I wanted to apply the same thought experiment here. This is the original video: czcams.com/video/iNpkSmRFtks/video.html
Combining fire performances with alcohol or drugs seems dangerous to me. I couldn't do it while sober let alone intoxicated.
I think your point about competitions is a good point. Yo-Yo has a ton of performances that are very flow like. It def is the best comparison.
I forgot to mention this, but dance competitions are also totally a thing. As is figure skating. The melding of the artistic and the athletic is a thing that so many other activities have done and successfully translated to competition. There's zero reason we can't as well.
I went to a meet about 20 years ago as a complete beginner trying to learn poi and the whole thing was so cliquey and I felt really unwelcome. It felt like you had to already have advanced skills to be there. It’s taken me until now as a far more confident adult and with access to the now extensive Internet tutorials to pick it up again. I’m now hoping to learn silk fan to start with.
Oh wow! 20 years ago and it was still like that? I'm glad the internet has made it easier to learn. Silk fans are awesome, though I'll confess I don't know if there are good resources out there for learning it. Do you know of any?
I agree, a couple of years ago i started learning poi, and a few little basic tricks, but eventually the next tricks after windmills, etc became to hard for me and i never managed to master them no matter how much i practiced and without meaning to i went off it to pursue other interests that were more accessible in terms of skill. And that level of difficulty just isnt visible it looks like you arent doing anything that challenging but requires a lot of coordination and practice
And youre right i have kind of stopped even hanging out in the type of environments were poi slackline acroyoga and stuff is practiced, not on purpose it just happened
the competition problem also happens in yoga a bit, as an inflexible yoga instructor I find theres this thing about not competing with others or even yourself because yoga is about acceptance of what is but then the contradiction of not letting yourself stagnate or not try interesting poses or to go further in a stretch because of this or you wont have futher skill because yoga is also about self discovery and becoming comfortable pushing boundaries you didnt know you could surpass, and there are many yoguis who are naturally very flexible and enter the poses immediately but have no wisdom or presence or ability to meditate or not show off on instagram AND there are many yoguis who struggle to enter poses but know so much of what the essence of yoga is, so who is a better yogui according to mainstream? the one who can touch their nose with their little toe behind their head of course cause it looks cooler
There is definitely something to be said for the difference between things that look difficult and things that are actually difficult and the ways it influences what winds up becoming popular or directing peoples' work in those areas. I think that internet video as a means to share poi tricks has definitely favored a flatter, more 2D approach to spinning and we lost a lot of 3D work along the way because of it. Likewise, I think a big part of the current push around contact and juggling-influenced poi tricks centers around stuff that looks impressive on camera or that reads as exceptional as opposed to a lot of the pattern-based stuff from the second generation of tech poi that fizzled out circa 2013 or so.
@@DrexFactor interesting, yes things like windmills when i was learning them i thought "but this is only looking good from the front, if someone sees it from the side it isnt the same" its not better or worse but it hyper focuses the art in one area
I noticed that yoga is getting competitive and in the mainstream media especially TV advertising it's seen as not 'proper' yoga unless it's hot yoga or acro yoga. So Hatha, Iyengar and yin yoga is dismissed. Yin yoga is Hatha yoga but holding the poses for longer which is difficult at first. When yoga got too popular I switched to tai chi.
Thanks for the wonderful video essay. I've felt this way about juggling as an art and community for a while so it resonated deeply. Great point about a steep learning curve - nobody is going to pick up the skill in a weekend or summer at the same level they might first see someone demonstrate. But because that applies to so many other things (skateboarding, chess, slackline, guitar, etc.), I'm not totally sold. There is a particular mindset that is drawn to the physical and mental challenges, curious or persistent enough to work through the stages of progress. The commercial or business side is weird as well, as it is difficult to tell what will sell as a mainstream product or activity. Presentation and an inviting presence is critical. It may simply just take a certain charisma of online content and nurturing environment to engage a new generation to participate.
Glad this resonated! This is a bit of a tangent, but one of the things that irks me most about the juggling community is that props that require less skill to learn are seen as lesser or less valid props than those that are more difficult to learn. Rather than recognizing them as gateway props and encouraging people to take them up, there's a certain level of disdain or disgust for those props and the people who use them. Which, to be fair, is also a thing we have as Flow Artists (I did indeed throw a little bit of shade toward leviwand and dragon staff here, after all), and it is also a thing that becomes a hindrance rather than a help for bringing new people in. I tried picking up skateboarding when I was younger and it is WAY harder than poi. There's dozens of kids in my neighborhood that skateboard and there's absolutely no reason some of them shouldn't be spinning poi, too.
I would say that I don't fit the mold of Poi spinners and I do not let that discourage me. I could probably post more about me learning to spread the word. I love the brain body connection, I love the movement. I love that it is a personal journey.
I have been looking for local community to connect with and at my minor attempts did not find anything that was in alignment with me. Then by luck a new community center opened up a few miles away. I even lucked out on finding them. I was searching random stuff on event brite. Seriously it was a synchronicity moment. They are going to have Poi Classes. They have not had one yet but it sounds like it will be laid back and just encouraging practice and community. I hope that is what it turns out to be.
Keep spreading the word.
Hey Drex, great video and very good points were made.
As someone who does colorguard, I actually really admire the kind of lack of competition within the flow arts community. It was nice as somebody starting out in levi wand how welcoming it was compared to guard. I'd say the barrier of entry to flow arts is lower than colorguard haha. But within the guard world there are so many people who are medal-chasers and elitists. It's not everyone, but there are enough around that you will eventually witness such behavior. However I agree with you that competitions would be healthy for the flow arts. Colorguard is basically it's own sub-section of flow arts as you are dancing and spinning up to 3 or even 4 unique props. There are major competitions and events every year and lots of superlatives and world class spinners to look up to because of it. Tons of youtube videos out there of the top groups in the whole world that inspire tens of thousands of kids to spin like them, and even more videos of individual spinners on instagram or tiktok.
I wish more flow art 'pros' could post more videos of themselves like back in the day. Especially like poi-spinners. The tech behind Poi is very well explored much like in guard and I feel that showcasing interesting, difficult, or new tech would help remedy the lack of competition by helping new spinners look up to someone.
Thank you Drex for all that you within and for this community. Your videos really helped me understand the flow arts world more and they still do.
Keep doing what you do :)
I do none of the performing arts, but I am the mother of a high school feature twirler in the Deep South. I came to the comments specifically looking for the "Auxiliary" (Guard, Dance Line, Majorette/Feature Twirler) people.
My daughter is about to enter her senior year and she's been twirling with the High School Marching Band since 8th grade. Her first two years she was part of the majorette line but keeping an instructor in rural areas is difficult so now it's just her and she's changed her style to that of a Feature Twirler.
She's gone to several camps in the past few years to hone her skills and competed for the first time in a baton competition this past January. So I've had a lot of learning about competitive baton recently.
She's been twirling fire as part of the half time show since 8th grade. The only limitations on fire in our area are that no school with artificial turf allows fire. This year she's going to add fire fan (We just got them in...we got the combo LED and fire so that she doesn't have to change her routine if she has to perform on turf and still has lights) I strapped an insane amount of ostrich feathers to some Russian grip wooden fans two years ago for "Shake a Tail Feather" for a Blues Brother's show. So she has had "some experience" with fans but I was on youtube today looking for more videos on different grip styles when I came across this video.
Between our revolving door band directors at our school and the marching band competitions....I feel like many of the flow arts would be a great fit for the more creative band directors but they have to see it executed and most of them also need to see a performance geared toward a field show. (i.e. stuff that will read in the bleachers)
I made a pair of veil poi trying to convince a previous band director to include them...and the bar was the learning curve for the students. I can make the props but I can't make them do the cool things.
Hence my suggestion for expanding the flow arts to mainstream as well as creating new flow artist is Guard, Majorettes, Dance Line.
Salary for instructors is a big barrier to high quality instruction for Marching Band Auxiliary. Given the unique benefits in regards to fine motor skills that the flow arts offer...I would imagine that grant money could be found for a flow artist to teach in public schools.
So vapidfox, if you have read this far....as someone who does guard and flow arts....do you think as I do that flow arts could fit in the half time show world perhaps even DCI?
@@elizabethogden90 Yes, flow arts would absolutely fit in a half time show and DCI!! I have seen the Blue Knights actually spin with buujeng back in 2015 and have seen a local high school colorguard use silk veil fans in their production last year. I aspire to be a colorguard director/designer and design my own productions within winterguard or the marching band season. I have had so many ideas with implementing flow arts within the auxiliary caption.
You said that one of the bars with flow arts and auxiliary is teaching the prop itself, however another big hurdle is that of the adjudication and the rules of spinning different props besides typical colorguard props and batons. In my state of Florida, unique equipment are judged as props in the same vein as the décor on the field or a thematic prop that can be held with (things like flag poles without the silk, maces, prop axes and swords, etc) and is penalized to the same degree when it is dropped. The issue that also comes with that is, in an activity as competitive as colorguard, experimentation with spinning unique props is kind of discouraged because it doesn't reward as many points in a competition as it could with typical auxiliary props.
The auxiliary judges reward points based on the technique, the vocabulary, and the execution/achievement of the choreography-WITH the typical props.
With any use of unique visual props, the points are rewarded toward the Visual caption and partially towards the General Effect caption (or can be heavily rewarded depending on the execution, like in Carolina Crown's 2012 production with the big circus cube frames at the end).
I know a handful of people in Florida that do colorguard and also flow arts. I've seen a few examples of flow arts implemented into colorguard. I believe that eventually we will see a surge of flow arts props used within colorguard productions as we now enter this new age with props--Pride of Cincinatti using gravity/counter-balance props in 2022, FIU World using dance poles in 2023, Stryke Percussion using treadmills and climbing harnesses in 2022, etc. Although those examples I gave are with stationary interactable props, I believe it will eventually transition to flow art props as the activity continues to evolve and experiment further within winterguard, and by proxy DCI and Marching Bands.
Both activities could stand to really benefit from each other. Mixing the competitive nature of colorguard along with the experimental and expressive aspect of the flow arts.
Great breakdown! One thing I don't think you touched too much on (and would love to hear your thoughts on) is that a lot of people don't see flow arts as, well, art. It's missing a story, a conversation. Dance performances will often tell a story and that sticks with people. When people see spinning fire, yes they want to give it a try but it isn't always clear that it's also an expression or story to follow. When people hear there's going to be fire spinning they expect spectacle, not substance. There are so few examples of choreographed pieces that I think really do this (especially solo pieces, partner makes it a little easier (loved your Stray Italian Greyhound piece by the way)).
That's not to say pieces don't have this either or that there's anything wrong with freeflow! Like many performance arts though, feelings need to be exaggerated for an audience if that is the route parts of the community want to take flowing. Because story is a hell of a marketing tool for its staying power and conencting with an audience.
Thanks for the kind words for Stray Italian Greyhound! I have another video coming up this month that I hope you'll love just as much. Short answer: I agree with you in principle here. A lot of what's governed my work in the past few years has been trying to express emotion and tell stories with poi and I think this creates a lot of potential to reach people that flow arts otherwise might not. A person who isn't in the flow arts may have a hard time telling the difference between a Mercedes and Zan's Diamond, but they'll absolutely recognize a person expressing universal feelings of joy, anger, sadness, and excitement. I think there's a lot of untapped potential here for reaching a broader audience--I will also say having explored this realm somewhat that there is a lot of stigma within the flow arts world (especially in the tech poi world) around doing this. It's seen as cringe to actually emote or inhabit a character when spinning. Needless to say, I think that needs to change.
But given the comparisons I drew in this video, I'd also be remiss if I didn't also acknowledge that skateboarding, snowboarding, yoga, and parkour all became a big deal without the people practicing them explicitly engaging in the same kind of storytelling or emotive expression. One can also pull in attention from the general public with virtuosity and sheer style. I think it's important to acknowledge that there isn't just one single path toward reaching that kind of appeal--there are many and I think that we should explore all of them and support people regardless of which path they choose.
All great points. Thanks for bringing them up. If it was more accessible and not so hidden away I probably would’ve stuck with it. It’s not much fun to do this alone all the time.
It's true. I think the accessibility part is both one of the more difficult hurdles to cross as well as one of the things that holds us back the most.
Wow.. After watching this i realized how lucky i am. I found out about flow arts and fire spinning last summer in camp: a lot of people there spin poi or/and staff. Now i am a part of this camp's flow art community. 🎉
Great commentary. I love flowarts with a passion for the physical and mental benefits it brings and would love to see it become more mainstream especially i have heard so many anecdotal stories how flow arts transformed or saved their lives. Your talk has been so helpful in identifying barriers stopping this. Thank you for sharing
Sure thing! Thanks for the great feedback!
I started hula hooping recently and realized I'm as good as I was as a kid. Very fun. Superb exercise
I'd compare the idea of competitive flow/poi to something like Skateboarding/ figure skating/ breakdancing, it's expression through skill and passion. it can still be judged in a point system, just put a panel of experts together and score it.
I understand the feeling of potentially being displaced by a larger mainstream culture that doesn't share my feelings.
That being said, the idea of young people who might not feel that they fit in seeing what I do and connecting is pretty cool.
I don't necessarily want it to go mainstream without it connecting to accessibility and radical inclusion/self expression.
The communities counter culture might be associated with some pretty adult themes. But the underlying beliefs of just being yourself without shame is what it's all about. 😮
I think another barrier to people starting out in flow arts would be cost. I know just for practice fire fans, they start around $75 USD or so and only go up from there. A set of DIY fire fans costs $110 and up and you have to put the wicks on yourself. If you want fully rigged fans, you're pushing $200 and above right off the bat. Yes, you can make your own practice fans out of a variety of materials but, trust me, they don't flow like the real thing at all. If you want LED fans, prepare to truly fork out some serious cash.
I mention fans because that's my current flow. I don't know how much it costs to get into staffs, hoops, or poi although I know you can start off with poi by using two really stretchy socks with weights in the toes. Fans, though, are insanely expensive.
in my experience of over 12 years of juggling and flow arts. poi spinners are the hardest to get along with. very elitist and unwelcoming really pushed me towards juggling. im not a hippy type and that always seemed to be the first problem i looked different so i wouldnt even get the chance to let my spinning speak for itself becuase i would be purposely ignored and left out of videos of meet ups. it was a big bummer that lead to me stepping away from all of it for awhile do to a lack of other jugglers i could get along with.
I started playing with poi in 2006 from glow stringing and stayed pretty consistent opening a community at my university and taught dozens of folks but fell out as I grew older and in pursuing my career took precendent and time/ patience for wook stuff. Thank you for making this video. It's so well done and accurate. (Except some that churn still check in so maybe there's hope)
Great video. I'll offer a slightly different take on the growth of flow arts if I may. Everything you mentioned is spot on, but have you considered the growth of flow arts in connection with other more mainstream arts- such as martial arts and other sports? I am a lifelong martial artist, and I find that flow arts such as poi and Crystal Stix significantly improve my practice given the focus, dexterity, and coordination required. They offer a very recognizable altered state of mind as well- that reflects what is needed in the martial arts. Basically, the flow arts are a shortcut to the "Mushin" state of No-Mind, that is very sought after by martial artists worldwide. We also know this as the "Flow State".The flow arts are MUCH more than just festivals, drugs, hippies, Ren fairs, and a small closed culture. I believe that the benefits of this practice need to be packaged in a different way that is accessible to a much wider audience. Think of utilizing the flow arts as a method to improve more mainstream athletics as a starting point to make them grow more mainstream. I don't think that anyone here would argue that these practices make a better all around athlete- This is definitely not to say that the flow arts can't stand alone- Indeed they can- but as a methodology for growth, I think that they need to pair with other activities to provide the growth spurt that you we all would like! Just my 2 cents! Cheers from New Orleans!!!
wow.... Drex... I seriously misjudged you. We think VERY similarly re: flow arts culture, and it's issues. Thank you for giving me perspective. I think we all got into flow for the same reasons, and left for the same.
In Poland our law is a bit diffrent so one can perform with fire on a town square without a problem(unless its right under a monument or something). In Warsaw for example theres a square right in front of the mayor metro station exit. People visiting the center of Warsaw in the evening can see fire performances almost every weekend there. Becouse of that here most people know what flow arts are. Its also interesting couse our fire community is more alt than hippie. Despite most fire guys looking alt and edgy people dont seem to be hesitant to ask us about the art so it doesnt seem like the "scaring off" effect you mentioned occurs here. But that alt comunity in Warsaw is a mess nontheless so not many people stay.
Hey drex, no idea if you'll ever read this comment but here goes: I'm a PhD researcher looking into circus, ableism and embodied knowledge.
I'm a spinner and a artist at heart. Can't say there's anything here I disagree with at all - I would say that spinning is both super accessible and super inaccessible at the same time, once you find 1 spinner, you'll usually find a network. Finding that 1 is the hardest bit.
I'd love to bring flow to the mainstream, I think talking about meditation, self-esteem and community is a great way to do it. All the best.
OMG, thank you for talking about this! I started hooping in 2011 and it SEEMED inclusive, but it really wasn't . I can not tell you how many times I tried to be a part of online groups that were very picky. They would have a host of requirements that were not friendly for beginners that were interested; they were gatekeeping. So I practiced alone at home for years. As you know hooping got real big then around 2018 it fizzled out. During the pandemic around 2021 it started to make a come back. I started seeing new people on line that I had never heard of, thanks to Tik Tok. But still its not as big as it was, maybe it was meant to come in waves? Hooping has been around in the mainstream for a long time, so maybe it was supposed to have high highs and low lows. I dont know.
I appreciate this conversation so much Drex! This is definitely an important topic and I have much to say on it! Also thanks for the video feature among the other amazing flow artists featured in the video 💛 And I’d love another visit to DC so we can hang again. Hope you’re doing amazing!
I'd love to hang out again and I really appreciate your feedback! As I was thinking of artists that I believe represent what I'd love to see in the future of our community, you were definitely one of the first to pop up!
@@DrexFactor You’re the best Drex! ❤️ So honored and it means a lot especially to hear that right now. I’ll definitely be planning when next I’ll be in the area this year. I’ll be in touch!
Really nice video!
I agree with most, if not all the points made in this video. Specifically around the difficulties in getting legitimate fire spinning going in more populous locations. If anyone seeing this also is working on this goal lets get together and compare notes! If you're just starting to figure this out I'm happy to pass along all the info I have. I've come to do more and more glow than fire, I've heard this echo'd a lot, but there will always be something about the fire aspect that is going to appeal to some of us no matter how amazing those flow props are ( and they really are amazing ya, I'm talking to you Sean Prisna & all FlowToys elves in general. :) )
On a more personal note, I do agree that there is a specific aesthetic that the majority of flow artists conform to (yup I said conform). When I stated some 14 years ago I also assimilated to the aesthetic, even have some of those clothing pieces and still bring them out from time to time for special occasions like Saturday fire circle. Over the years as both myself and my peers have aged I've gotten more comfortable wearing whatever I feel like and letting my skills (or lack of) speak for itself when approaching a new group of spinners I've never met before. Early on though I def wanted to be part of the 'in' group, so I resonant with that statement. I also felt some of that cold shoulder of 'you don't fit the aesthetic' and it was hard, even hurtful at times to overcome. One of the things that got me through was connecting to people through volunteering to make the things happen, not just focusing on the props but on the community aspect. Through my volunteering I realized that a lot of us have a hard time in social settings for various reasons which can lend to awkwardness or even coldness in social interactions. With that understanding I now attribute an unfulfilling interaction to miscommunications first and only after multiple failed attempts over a couple festivals to a conclude that that person and I aren't gunna hang. Hell I've known people 10 years but haven't had a solid conversation... yet! Sometimes it just takes that long and that's okay.
I enjoy camping a lot, I do as personal pleasure... and I'd rather not have to do it for 3 (or more if you're volunteering) days to go play with friends. Just off from NWFF 2023 which takes place in Seattle and doesn't require camping and is highly accessible, the entire Flow Fest approach I wasn't sure about at first because I was only accustomed to the camping fest approach but over the years I've really come to appreciate what Flow Fest has to offer the community.
Final thought, and an admittedly biased one, KindleNW has been making an intentional major push to improve all aspects of accessibility and I want to take a moment to encourage anyone who hasn't made it to a flow festival because of access challenges and you really wanna do the thing to reach out to KindleNW.org contact page and ask what options are available maybe it won't work out this year but can start a convo for the next!
Thanks @Drex for standing out/up with opinions and starting conversations!
Much love y'all
Desert
Thank you for all this and goodness yes I hear you about the pressure to conform in dress and appearance. I did that for many years on my channel and came to a point where I realized I was dressing up as a character and not as myself. I sometimes feel out of place at flow events because I've opted to present myself in a way that I feel more comfortable with, but I fully support people who want to go out and explore new fashion options and see what fits for them. The note on volunteering and making friends by helping to build community is an important one! Thank you for adding that to the conversation!
I am so happy to be hosting weekly flow jams in our area, cultivating a rad local community. This video was like a virtual pat on the back. I think about the people we have coming every week and the learning that takes place. The social connection. Frankly, the lack of bs. It's just a weekly gathering, and yet these are really the backbone of our circus community.
So interesting to think about our reactivity as a social group, and how we have hindered ourselves from thriving by turning people away (probably without knowing it).
One small note:
Calling dragonstaff a gateway prop, and comparing it to leviwand/pixelwhip in terms of learning curve is super inaccurate in my opinion. Definitely not the point of this video, but a little dismissive
Interesting video overall. I would love to see more community organizations develop, and competition be a lot more welcomed. How edgy are we if we can't even foster friendly competition 😋
"Calling dragonstaff a gateway prop, and comparing it to leviwand/pixelwhip in terms of learning curve is super inaccurate in my opinion. Definitely not the point of this video, but a little dismissive "
So I kind of want to unpack something that I think may be buried within this and ask: why is dragonstaff being compared to leviwand or pixel whip, let alone being characterized as a gateway prop bad?
Gateway props bring new people into the flow world and lower the barrier to entry for people curious about what we do. I remember interviewing Alien Jon years ago for Profiles in Poi and being struck that one of his primary motivations for creating Fiberflies was to create a gateway prop: something anyone could pick up and make look cool with minimal effort. His hope was that by picking up a fiber whip, people would then move on to spinning other props as they were exposed to them flowing out with other people and/or develop more techniques for them down the line. But in his mind, the simplicity and ease of using the prop was the feature and not the bug.
I wish I had thought to draw these points together more directly in this video, but I think one of the ways we in the Flow Community tend to engage in gatekeeping is by creating the association that simple/easy = bad. I know I've rolled my eyes at people doing backbend buzzsaws or the kid onstage doing a 3-beat weave for 5 solid minutes and looking back on it I think I've definitely been a bit of a snob in that regard. I think there are some incredibly cool things one can do with dragon staff. I also know many people who learned in a half hour how to do a chi roll and called it a day on getting any further and are happy to just vibe on that.
I do agree that I suggest that dragon staff is a simple tool to pick up (at least moreso than poi--which at one point was considered a gateway prop in itself) and without connecting those dots and suggesting that gateway props are actually a good thing that it can seem like I insinuated that the prop was lesser than many others. But I think recognizing that association is important and something we probably need to deconstruct if indeed we want to lower barriers to entry overall. We should be shoving dragon staffs and leviwands into the hands of beginners. I think we'll wind up with more flow artists that way!
Come to Colorado then 💅🏽 14:27 literally everyone flows here
Exactly
Kinda late for the party but WOW that was a great video! As someone that go into the flow community relatively recently I've also asked myself that question. I've made some notes. Time to think how to tackle the problems and make the thing go viral. Cheers!
Such good vocabulary and phrasing. Super easy to understand every idea. I would listen to an even deeper dive of each sub culture
Certainly the beginning of my exit from flow arts was two-fold: one, the gatekeeping shade that was constantly cast on the local event I was helping run (which, frankly, sounded more inviting than most others), and two, the takeover of my local spin jam by a bunch of highly competitive people who really had no time for beginners. It made it entirely unappealing to go, and so I phased out.
This is all as opposed to how I got in in the first place - I got in because of a warm welcome, because everyone around me was decidedly uncool, and because we went out to dinner after spin jams. When I got to that first event in the Northeast, people welcomed with open arms and wanted me to be there, even though it was my first event.
So, here's a couple of tensions. You said that we may need competition - how do we do that without sacrificing inclusion of new people? All the people who are most competitive to get attention on Instagram or wherever seem to have eyes and ears only for other folks "on the same level," which creates a less-inviting environment. As well, being open to "the normies" kinda follows two paths - there's your buttoned-up nerd who wears khakis and a polo shirt to spin fire, and is super unassuming; then, there's the bros you mentioned who maybe were a major source of pain for us in the past. Inclusion of the first has led to performances that made me cry, and many a delightful night of that person helping me learn; inclusion of the second made me want to leave altogether - and if you look at me, I've never been some alt-culture poster-child. I taught Latin, forchrissake.
So how do we get competition /and/ openness; how do we have openness /and/ maintain our values? These are not conversations limited to flow arts communities.
Did you see the women’s skateboard finals at the Olympics? My favorite moment came at the very end. On her final run, Misugu Okamoto was poised to take gold if she did as good or better than her second run, but fell near the end of the run and burst into tears. The other competitors who were still in the park rushed to her and carried her around on their shoulders as she wept as though she had won gold. I don’t think that competition and community are anathema to each other but I do think a lot depends on how both competition and community are engaged in. We have no formal competitions, but elitism still happens, so I don’t necessarily think the two are mutually exclusive.
There is definitely a thread of super competitive people in the Flow Arts that engage in gatekeeping. The overwhelming majority of whom are young men. This is my personal take, so take it with a grain of salt, but I hear many claim to renounce their egos and give lip service to community even as they harass and diminish the work of others. My take is that many want to be seen and respected and talk about ego as an in-group identifier and/or fashion statement. They talk of egolessness while avoiding actually doing any of the shadow work around it. They would be among the loudest to protest open competition because it carries with it the risk of feeling as inadequate as they try to make others feel. And I think competitions would actually help if for no other reason than they would force us to talk about the quiet part out loud and appeal to a new generation of artists who are open about their desire to be seen and not trying to hide this aspect of their personalities away to seek social approval and in the process cause damage to others.
It was such a feeling when deep in the flow arts. When you practice so much and feel like a different person and interact with the world differently from flow arts, it's hard to feel like you're part of a special group. Something special definitely happens, but you have a great point that it's important to get past that elitist temptation in order to make it more accessible. What a trip down memory lane 10/10
I think that in many cases the insularity of the community is seen by people who come into it as a feature instead of a bug--that it's a "safe" space that will stay particularly small and niche. The challenge, of course, being that we still bring in all sorts of people and many of them represent the things we were trying to get away from in mainstream culture. I don't think there's a way to create a subculture that is truly devoid of these features without confronting them directly and avoiding doing that seems to be at least part of the motivation in the first place.
Hooping took.off where I live because if a teacher who came from a nearby city to teach it and then those who learned from her started their own classes. But carrying a hoop through the street makes you a target for harassment. In the daytime, it's just the odd look or comment, but in the evening, people want to borrow the hoop so they can steal it. The alternatives are to use hoops brought by the teacher or ones that can be clipped and unclipped to become smaller.
I mostly stopped practicing because I had to move cross-country into an inconvenient apartment space, and I just don't have the time to go down to the park very often.
But I've got plans for a media project that involves flow. I need to see about an incubation investment though, or it's going to take a long while to develop.
I picked up poi after coming across a fire flow on instagram, I'm not sure how I came across it lol but I fell in love after that and it's now my ultimate goal!
Totally agree with what you said about making learning the art accessible. I bought poi toys after seeing how cool it looked at a rave thinking it's easy to learn, then realized quickly after getting them that it isn't 😅. Seeing how few poi tutorials there are on youtube (compared to dance tutorials or skateboarding tricks etc) almost made me give up, but finding yours and a couple other channels gave me hope cause I know there's resources for me to learn from 😊. Thank you for making these videos, cause I would have quit otherwise ❤.
I'm just starting out, and as a software engineer who slouches at a desk all day, I feel like poi is helping me with posture and exercising my shoulder and back muscles, so that's a main appeal for me (other than to look cool and give light shows at raves ^^)
Fushigi tried. Fushigi really, really tried. Lol
Can you expound on this please ?
You're not wrong! 😂
@@zzasserzzdude there was sooo much marketing for that damn ball
Lol I got one for xmas years ago... I like my blue spheres now way more
Great episode. I appreciate the logical, well parsed out information. I'm just now hearing about flow arts (age 46, but way to busy working back in early 2000's). I started silks and lyra and heard of flow arts there. I'd love another way to move and play (something we grownups deprive ourselves of too much). But, I'm boriing (no drugs or alcohol, no artsy fashion or tatts, go to bed early, etc). I love my circus buddies. Each one is unique and they are all so kind and accepting of everyone who walks into the gym. And, I love learning in a regular occurring class. Maybe I can find a flow gym? I don't know if they exist, but I'll look. Saturday morning flow would be great therapy (like sylks and Lyra are).
This perspective is interesting to see as a yoyoer. In our community, many top players see the competitive scene as being counterproductive to creativity. The contest has created a highly optimized and formulaic style of yoyoing. The result is a landscape of fast but simple tricks to maximize the density of elements in a performance. Heavy penalties for mistakes result in less risk taking. Also, repetition, an important artistic element in my mind, is not allowed in yoyo contests. I have often wished that the yoyo community could operate more closely to other flow arts communities. In 2020, there were no contests, and the creativity of tricks people were posting skyrocketed. The types of yo-yos that sold changed. Comfortable yoyos that sacrificed some performance became more popular. It seems like yoyoing became more fun without competitive pressure.
This is a very important topic, and I agree with all that you said, I hope that it does one day become main stream. And I will do what I can to help. And set a good example for others. Thanks
Food for thought! I’m an ex dancer now accountant that first picked up a prop in my 50s and really love the ability to dance again in a new way. I don’t look counter culture but somehow the willingness to play with a prop in public seems to identify me as “other”
Excellent point! There absolutely is a degree to which picking up props automatically puts someone into the category of "other". If enough people picked them up, I think that would go away, but it requires a lot of brave souls to cross that line first.
I'm in an odd place when it comes to the Flow. I absolutely love the art form, but not the community. I've run into way too many artists who perpetuate scientific misinformation, notably on vaccines and GMOs. It's the same type of relationship I have with various martial arts communities, and for similar reasons. And as a person of color, I'm a bit disturbed by the level of cultural appropriation that takes place without much respect for the culture which it comes from. A bit ironic, considering how willing they are to gatekeep the flow arts.
But I am 100% with you on using flow for math and science, because you can model some really cool concepts in geometry, calculus, and classical mechanics using a prop.
Yeah vaccines and GMOs always hot flow arts meet up conversations 😂
There is a loooooooong essay I have in me about how I think Flow Arts has a streak of Conservatism that we don't really talk about or acknowledge that I'll put out there at some point. I'm working on a video essay right now about why I think Flow Arts is truly a separate culture and community than the juggling or circus worlds that does touch on it...but suffice it to say I agree that there are a lot of troubling and problematic aspects to the community that have been put into stark focus in the past few years. But the short version is that I agree with you on these points...it was something that came as a bit of a shock to me in these past few years and definitely something to keep in mind in any conversation about the Flow Arts becoming more well known.
I’ve wanted to learn how to do this kind of thing for at least 30 years (since glo-sticks) and finally have some time to dedicate to practicing it as a self care activity. It looks far more fun than yoga. Yes, one day I would like to spin fire - it is definitely a motivator but for now I’ll go with the kids LED balls which I’ll be taking off into the mountains :) I’m so glad I found your channel.
Even though I 100% agree with what you are saying here, I do see the Montreal/Quebec community growing. We have weekly -legal- fire practise & a flow festival that are growing in attendance. We also have pionneers like Mr. Poi who comes from outside the traditionnal hippie scene and who works at bringing pois to the mainstream, teaching kids at school and making it a recognised discipline in gymnasiums.
Interesting! Is Mr Poi on IG or Tiktok? I'd like to check out their work.
@@DrexFactor @monsieur.poi
Thanks for this video!
I still beileve in the flow arts, I love the juggling stix. Started when I was 12, and thought I could change the world with them... 😂 boy was I wrong. They did changed my world and I'll take the little wins!
One thing I don’t think he touched on was how flow toys are custom. It’s a hobby that requires you to either learn to make a custom piece of flow equipment or spend money on a custom piece for you. I made my own stave and it was nice for a short time, but ultimately I had to have a nicer one to get better. Plus making my own was not that much cheaper than buying a custom one
We will see what happens in a few years when Full Circle Phenomenal completes the first ever entire world tour, driving, teaching and performing flow arts the whole way. (3.5 years and 16 countries in, recently making it over the ocean from Uruguay to South Africa, with our truck). Flow arts is admired and desired around the whole world; legitimate human evolution depends on it. I do agree competitions would bring out a bigger crowd, though I have experienced many people just want to come out to see something they haven’t seen before (and yes, most people still don’t know what “fire spinning” is, but more and more people are saying to me, “Oh! Yeah I know someone who does that!”, always with wide eyed enthusiasm. Partner/team flow arts / fire spinning in choreographed shows, combined with just a little dance and acrobatics, and people will then see it less as islander restaurant or street show gig and more of something that is obviously challenging, tantalizing to the senses (as the patterns become more and more precise and sacred, people will be leveling up their own consciousness and not knowing it), and worth investing further in, in some way. I say this is the golden age of flow arts, but people who do not stray away from spin jams, festivals and concerts may never see it. One way or another, the competition is on, and those who can communicate well and direct energy will be the winners. Nice video. 🙏
As far as the judging contest thing goes, follow the guidelines of gymnastics or ice skating.
I don’t like the idea of “cleaning up” flow arts as a prerogative at all, especially because some of its most visible counterculture signifiers are things like gender nonconformity and alt fashion. Those aren’t things I (or others) do to scare off newcomers - for many people, it’s who they are and what they love, and things they may only be able to express and have recognized fully at dedicated events with people who accept them. Requiring a degree of tolerance for non-normativity as a barrier for entry to flow arts communities is what makes them a place non-normative people can exist.
You say you got into flow arts indifferent to/in spite of ‘the scene’, but I think that’s not true for a lot of people - I started because I liked the art, and stayed because I found friends and community and loved that it was a culture where being queer, nonconforming, etc, were celebrated. I don’t have strong feelings either way about flow arts going “mainstream” - but the idea of scrubbing those things from it towards that end, or that people who are visibly nonconforming are holding flow arts ‘back’, makes me pretty sad.
Very valid point! My intention with that section was to more address people who don't fall into marginalized communities taking on their signifiers as a mark of individualism or counter culture street cred, who then go onto great notoriety given they still possess the privilege associated with their identity and I absolutely see how I failed to connect the dots in that part of my commentary. Thank you for pointing that out.
The competition thing definitely makes people innovate
I wish I had seen this video before trying to enter flow arts.
Completely, completely agree and I was very traumatized. I feel like I'm in a dystopian novel but it's a bunch of fragile ego'd flow artists running around in flip flops.
I'll stick with dance and circus arts.
And I stuck it through long enough to have my own community and events, but dang have I thought about having a podcast series to discuss exactly what you have so poignantly expressed here.
I first discovered flow art around 2010, got my first pair of poi a few years later and only went real serious about flow art in 2023.
The one thing I noticed is the tone of online videos. It feels to me that it went from « hey! Come have fun and find your flow! Fun Fun Fun!» to « Look at how serious I am about this, here is a complex trick. Oh? You want to start? Know that practicing flow art is good for your health, etc... »
That massive change in tone from playful to stupidly serious really scared me.
If I had not discovered it all earlier, I would have gone « nope! Not for me ».
This is such a cool topic thank you for diving into this. I got introduced to hooping by a friend. Most of the props I use now got introduced by friends. I feel like people do not know about flow arts alot. I remember when I first got into flow arts it took me a couple years just to find a community. I only heard about festivals that are affordable in 2022. Most people in the flow arts have lost respect for one another and that is so sad that people do not see other flow artists for who they are. Plus I think flow festivals need to be more affordable. Plus at flow festivals people are so clicky so it is hard to go festivals where you do not feel like you truly fit in bc the other flow artists are not willing to welcome new people to the festivals.
Interesting, that's very different from my experience.
One of the smartest analyses I've ever seen about Flow Arts; thank you ! I totally agree with you about the bottleneck effect resulting from the community's desire to remain "underground". We should present a friendlier and more familiar face to the rest of the world.
At the same time, I believe there is a key difference between Flow Arts and skill-based sports like skateboarding: in Flow Arts, technical skill is not a *goal* but only a *means* to create harmony between mind and body. By putting them in another Red Bull contest or dedicated TV shows, we could see a whole new generation of fans rushing to the next big move - just as happened with breakdancing. Rather than being absorbed too quickly into mainstream culture, flow arts should allow time to be part of its transformation from within - creating spaces that are freer from the dictates of performance.
From my European perspective, Flow Arts are not dying at all: they are still in full bloom and I see more and more people practicing every summer, thanks to influencers like you ! ;-)
Hope you read this dude.
I've been spinning for years and am mostly self taught. I learned the arm roll and chi roll through videos on here.
But the fancier stuff i taught myself. Realised I'd been doing a "jebuz" for years.
I think the community is gate keeping. There's hardly any dragon staff tutorials. My reception from people when i want attention and spin in public is always good. I've shown people how to do the arm roll and let them leave realising it's just a tool and how to use it.
But I'm also an Australian tradesman 🤷♂️
Just stared poi about 6 months ago and absolutely love it 🥰 can’t wait to be an expert!
Oh boy this is a really great topic choice.
The number one question for sure when I had attempted street performance is about fire XD. It really is the most eye catching with a side of danger that immediately gives an impression of skill. But online LED is king. Sadly when talking about my prop and what I do, it's Juggling > baton spinning > flower sticks > flow arts.
All competitions really are, are just meet ups. IJA 2023 is a 5 day event of competitions, workshops, shows, and general gathering of the jugglers. Which btw on the IJA 2023 front page is actually a mention for a flow arts show with a brief description. "Flow Arts are an intersection of object manipulation and dance that the IJA embraces.
btw nice touch with a rotation background, didn't see it the first viewing whatever the reasoning for that is, it is visually nice.
more detail description of the show.
Over the past few years, the IJA has taken steps to highlight more flow artists by producing a show dedicated to the “flow” side of manipulation. The term “flow arts” has come to encompass object manipulation props and tools such as hula hoop, poi spinning, baton twirling, and other forms of movement and dance that incorporate the use of objects in their performance. This show will absolutely dazzle you with insight into unique props and skills that these artists showcase.
IJA is a really really amazing partnership to have, so there is still hope :3
I agree. Also being heavily in the aerial seen (and other circus arts In general) there are alot of the same issues of counter culture, perceived danger and extreme eversion to competition.
I will say that one of the best things that happened to the aerial seen in particular was the pole industry. As they made it alot more acssesability both for classes and for equipment (the price of a mobile rig is maybe a 7th as much as it was) and introduced low stakes competition to the wider community. And aerial is another one of those ones that feels it's on the rise again.
Personally I feel like the big thing to solve is fire it has a huge draw (definitely want brings on most people to us) and ways to make this more accessible and ideally youth friendly. Competition is great for retention but getting the numbers in should probably be the starting point.
For us insurance has been the issue (UK based). We can get insurance to do pretty much anything we want with kids, knife throwing, flying trapeze, high level aerial, tool use and making equipment, even making and lighting fires to cook on in the woods in forest school programs. But we've not found anyone willing to even discuss insuring teaching and working with fire with teens. And honestly many of them get bored after a year or so and move onto other disciplines because of this.
This is SO spot on! ❤
PREACH. I started poi in 2003, and then stopped around 2006 to be an adult. When I came back in 2016, EVERYTHING was different - tech, we use white gas now, the whole scene was very different. I actively saw posts on a local poi Facebook group that denigrated "muggles" and people who didn't wear festival clothes (wtf?)...even though I had been spinning since before they were in diapers. It was gross and disheartening and honestly one of the main reasons I don't really do poi anymore. I liked spinning with my friends, and it's also how I made friends back in the day, but every jam I went to was just not for me. I'm grown, I don't do drugs, I don't like camping for a festival like that. Also, these are things that need to change in general, not just to go mainstream.
Being one of the people that recently came back to flow (because I found my pois while deep cleaning), I agree with much of the points from the video. Entry point is kinda high and events are still on the "underground" genre, and there is no straight progression, you just kinda "flow" into new tricks, new ways of expression.
Plus.... current culture is so fast paced that just a few take the time to learn the way to manipulate a basically new extension of the body.
If there is no organic introduction like we had in the late part of the first decade of this century (man, that phrase made me feel old XD), the chance of the "curiosity" to stick and evolve into a hobby and then itself evolve into a common practice, from my point of view, is quite low. And I agree, the common conception of flow arts is that they are for hippies, people that have no work or are lazy, etc. which makes the cover letter not so appealing to new people or parents to let their "little Bobby" play poi.
Pretty interesting stuff. You're right on the mark that Flow Arts haven't entered the general consciousness yet: as someone who unknowingly practiced a flow art (staff spinning) on my own for over two decades, I can say I never heard of the Flow Arts community until last year! The last time I brought up Poi to someone they didn't know what it was until I showed them a pair. They called it the "balls on strings thing".
Thinking about it, I believe your point about the lack of competition is the biggest reason why Flow Arts hasn't expanded onto the general scene. To the general audience, no competition means no one stands out. No one standing out means no one is worth watching. No one worth watching means no one watches. No one watching means no one thinks about it, and that means it fades away. People love a story, and story needs a main character.
The second biggest thing I believe keeps the general public from remembering Flow Arts is the nature of advanced moves. This audience needs something easy to understand to get into what they're watching. As an example, Ice Skating has very clear things that people cheer for: jumping in the air and spinning 3-5 times; doing a long glide with the skate held behind the head; doing an tight, high RPM spin for 20 revolutions; etc..
In contrast, I believe most Flow Art moves become more technical as they get more advanced. As you said, these are impressive to people in the know, but have no impact on the uninitiated. They can tell it looks cool, but they really can't tell how cool: unable to comprehend the patterns, all they'll see is spinning things that make pretty shapes. If they spend too much time watching those pretty shapes, their minds will eventually get bored.
Competitions can eventually be figured out: we've had competitions for performative arts like Ice Skating, Rhythmic Gymnastics, Marching Band, etc. for decades. The second part is more difficult: the general progression in Flow Arts at this time doesn't encourage big, fast, easy-to-understand movements that catch peoples' eyes. The only thing I can think of a this time would be to focus more on the choreographically nature of the performance: coordinating with music to increase the impact and emphasis of the Flow Art; varying speeds, timing, and complexity to keep the audience mind from stagnating; adding in dance elements that the audience can easily identify with; and other things of that nature.
I was at Northwest Flow Fest and saw your performances (at the Fire Jam and the Instructor Showcase). I appreciate how you perform: a mix of fast, snappy moves; expansive, far reaching moves; and complex, technical moves. Use of wide, dancing footwork to move around, keeping the audience from staring in one direction or at only one point of your body for too long. Expressions and emphasis conveyed not just with the Poi, but with your hands, feet, and body in general. Impressive work!
I moved from oregon 8 years ago to Utah to be with family, finding out very quickly flow arts as a whole doesnt really happen here. At least that ive found yet, if there are any Utah folks still manipulating, id love to meet you all❤️
Because poi is often a performance, which always requires practice, there is always going to be some anxiety when doing poi and in 2023, the young people aren't ready for more anxiety. No one born after 2000 sees it as entering a flow state, they see it as a high-coordination activity where the chances of embarrassment is very high. They prefer social media and smart phones: low- or zero-skill activities.
Thank you so much for this video.
seems pretty mainstream to me- you see more people doing flow than Yoyo- and Yoyo was MASSIVE in the last century
Tiktok and instagram is the mainstream now- so many flow artists making names for themselves and getting sponsored for it- which wasnt happening 10 years ago
Youre so correct with the gatekeeping and edgyness
the culture of what "mainstream" is now is just so different
Social media has definitely changed how we frame mainstream for sure...and arguably it opens the door to arts becoming widely adopted without necessarily getting access to traditional media in a way that would both gain them household name status but also require getting through media gatekeepers with a very long history of filtering out diverse voices. I do agree that Tiktok and Instagram are for all intents and purposes the new mainstream, but I don't think simply having content on those platforms makes us mainstream. When we get the kind of exposure, views, and recognition that things like yoga and skateboarding get on either platform, I think we're getting closer to that kind of status.
Agreed,much more mainstream when i started.
Love flow arts, I just don't know anyone who is into it too...... I used to but most of them stopped playing and one if them moved away
Watching this has been made me learn on my interests are
There are hardly any conventions in Germany. So you only have one or two opportunities a year to meet like-minded people. Besides that, there are some groups that to fireshows, but they are more like competitors than community developers.
Great video! Props can be so expensive espencially in poorer countries
Like my hulahoop juggling and dancing friends, I felt like I didn't want to pour it into the show and blast it. I always thought it would explode on Tiktok and it would piss off old jugglers. Hulahoop is actually mainstream among kids, but only gymnasts learn about the possibility of different moves.
When I first watched hulahoop dance, I was very impressed and wanted to learn. But no one I showed around me was impressed. Have any of your relatives or friends said that they want to try it too?
Idk. I love flow, started as a glover, still spin poi. It's antithetical to competition for me. It's inherently personal. It's a way to exist at a music festival. It's derivative, not the main show. I think music festivals are the way to main stream flow, art, and more generally creativity
It would be nice to have more gatherings, like drum circles -- they're not mainstream either, but are easier to find now than they were before... not so much for flow arts. At least, not that I know of.
I'm willing to share it and make it open to everyone but everythin in my life what i really liked became trash when it was becoming mainstream.
A good example is music they are bands they make such a nice unique music style and then when their become popular their change their style to that what the masses like. I like the unique vibe that we poi spinners have and i think when it becomes mainstream and competitive it really fast become a bad environment. Sorry for my bad englisch this is not my standard language :D
Regarding counterculture and hippies: One thing that concerns me is how many people enter into counterculture and do counter-cultural things with deeply-held resentment toward the rest of society. Yes, there are problems with mainstream society and culture, there's no doubts there. But resentment breeds hatred and violence. If you really want the world to change, you have to transform yourself first. I used to show the world my negativity, and I received negativity in return.
When I became a font for universal love, I found that even people who _should_ theoretically hate me found themselves unable to, and I've saved many from dark places.
I found a group so I could spin my poi saftely with fire... but the leader said "ok meet me at my friends house. The rules are you have to dress up as the weekly theme" sir, I just want a safe space to spin. I have yet to spin fire. Is this normal?
epic video and topic
In the U.S., it is quite obvious that flowart is not mainstream. With all the permits, licenses, etc. I started working with various fire props in 2008-2009, when I lived in Ukraine. At that time fire shows, fire festivals were at the peak of popularity. Now that I live in the US, I find it very difficult to enjoy fire even for myself (NY state, baby), so sometimes I, even now with 3 kids, pamper myself with LED props, but it's nothing compared to fire... I miss it so much😢
I don't even know what flow fests are but one hard truth I learned is that not everything mainstream is good and not everything good is mainstream
Thx for video
I have to agree. I started out from the juggling side and attended a lot of juggling festivals. I felt like it was something any person off the street could attend and feel welcomed. I preferred the more flow side of props and juggling vs numbers, tech, etc. As I picked up more things like Poi, staff, contact juggling I started trying to engage with other spinners, and attending small burn events or local meetups. Almost every one of those experiences included some level of uncomfortability. Why can't just attend a workshop without a guy telling me about crystals with his dick out? Why can't I exist around buddies without them panicking to hide their stash cause the park warden is coming over. It feels like I can't engage the flow community without also having to consent to experiencing all these other things that I'm not into. Add on top of that the amount of people preaching PLUR that just do not exemplify what it means and are hypocritical gatekeepers. I agree with you that its mainly an expression of a subculture rather than being its own separate thing that anyone can feel welcomed into.
I feel that another factor is more of what he touched on. When we talk about the way we dress, and how we preach "acceptance" the flow community has grown beyond intolerant and toxic as culture and politics have merged.
Even Drex openly dispises conservatives and people who are unvaccinated. This is the flow community as it seems as whole. The counter culture he speaks of has become a very disturbing thing.
The flow community could have been so much better but the living breathing hatred people have developed is almost tangible.
The attitudes and ideas that flow through this community is one that the biggest turn offs for people outside of it. And this is why it'll never be main stream. It's come as fsr as it will go which is still amazing but every mountain has a top. So many amazing artists are scared to voice their concerns as people like Drex and many others are gripped by their personal beliefs.
The places that the flow arts are more prevalent in are also the most toxic communities I've seen. Not all the people. But Many many of them.
We all need to do better, and be truly accepting of others.
"Even Drex openly dispises conservatives and people who are unvaccinated."
Let's clarify here...I openly discuss getting vaccinated and encourage others to do the same. Then anti-vaxxers descend on those posts en masse and engage in harassment and intimidation. So I think it would be more accurate to say that conservatives and anti-vaxxers openly despise me and do everything in their power to discourage me from openly sharing my own views on the topic. And when I push back or defend my position, they project their own behavior (bullying) onto me.
You want something to become mainstream enough to be accessible but not too mainstream like yoga and salsa was for a while. Not because it attracts the sort of people you hated at school (I dont live where I grew up) but because it attracts the bandwagon jumpers who don't really want to be there as they only chase the current popular thing and then they move on. They have no real interest in anything not because they haven't yet found anything but because they follow the herd and only go where their friends want to go.
These are the people who will sneer at X thing before it becomes really popular and then get into it at the peak of popularity only to move onto something else a year or two later. They do this so as to be popular with the maximum number of people.
I was into yoga just before the peak of popularity, but then the bandwagon jumpers came along, crowded out the class, messed about and ruined it for me, so I quit.
I have seen the same thing happen with music sub genres which kills off the sub genre very quickly and then the top musicians have to reinvent themselves and develop a new style of music.
Amen!!!!
I am a movement artist too of my own way. I just subscribed. I'm interested.
Outstanding! Welcome!
because I just got started. Im sorry im late
All good! We saved a seat for you 😉
Так много рассказал. Удивительно верно
#notallflowartsfestivals ... Just had to say it!
I mean gloving comps are a thing
Flow arts are extremely cheap, which makes them very accessible. Some sports are extremely expensive. The problem is that it's associated with partying, raves, etc. It's cool tho.
It's still arson as controlled as it is people don't understand
I hope it doesn’t go mainstream..
It’s nice to have my own slice of heaven, a nichè corner of the universe.
I miss one issue: the arrogance of people in 'the community' who act asif it is all about contest. Bye.
It didn't go mainstream because it's not impressive.