Great video as always. Side note : have you considered doing a "state of the older gens" video where you go through the current state of the meta in gens 1-5 and maybe talk about the weirder developments in there ? That'd be a fun thing.
@@fulltimeslackerii8229 the reasons are pretty simple and likely dont warrant a very long video, the higher tiers have a lot of ground types that flat out counter it. due to it losing hurricane/air slash, its exceptional special attack cant provide the coverage it needs to hit pesky ground types for meaningful damage, as well as losing heat wave, if you were keen on using that. Zapdos also didnt just lose those, of course, it also lost toxic like so many other pokemon, so even its defensive sets were crippled beyond repair. it still had roost and defog, but loosing its major coverage really killed its viability, and it sank to a tier not as dominated by ground types or pokemon that took advantage of its limited coverage.
Love DPP OU, my favourite though absolutely not competitively viable strategy is my ttar-fightingspam team which uses scarf pursuit ttar to remove psychics/ghosts for a bunch of powerful fighting types to wreck havoc with close combat. Its a worse version of Dragmag but its fun to overrun some teams with it on ladder
Just a standard Little Cup strategy (except that since gen 6, the Fighting type can just Spam Knock Off themselves and be fine, and even with the removal of Pursuit this type of team is still really really strong in the meta, I am currently using one and I relatively easily reached 1500 on the ladder with it, which speaks a lot when a hyper offense where your only psychic and Flying resist is a Suicide Lead Pawniard (and technically Sash Abra) and you have absolutely no defensive synergy whatsoever can find success, Fighting spam is one of the most tried and true strats in LC)
@@XtheGAMEmaster Personally, I have found that Scarf Garfetched is the MVP of the team (alongside SD Grassy Seed Grookey) because yeah, Timburr and Mienfoo are super useful and reliable, but man, Galarian Farfetched is such a beast at reliably finishing off weakened teams and revenge killing almost everything (granted, I have learned to always Knock defensive Staryu, it's too reliable at stopping Farfetched from cleaning due to how deceptively bulky it is, like Holy Shit, CC doesn't even KO (very low percentage) after two rounds of rocks, that's crazy). Sorry for going on a tangent, but I really love this mon in the tier, it's really really good even if it's frequently quite hard to justify on a team
so our brave hero has stooped to baiting rage clicks by making the runtime 4 seconds over a perfectly even hour...now i'll have to watch the whole video so i can figure out why those 4 seconds were so important
00:35 "I'm not trying to go on unrelated tangents as much." *Makes a 1 hour video on DPPT Salamence while spending less than 5 minutes talking about Salamence*
tune in next week, where I upload an hour-long video titled "history of adv ou" from the metagame's 200 origins to full 386 (including XD), the inventions of TSS, different ttar sets (boah, VILtar), but halfway through I veer off into movies that have been on my mind lately, such as: loves of a blonde, braindead, down by law, alice in the cities, the villainess, beau travail, US go home, portrait of a young girl at the end of the 1960s in brussels, only god forgives, possession, night is short walk on girl, sword of doom, pulse, belladonna of sadness, persona, bubba ho-tep, two-lane blacktop, kolobos, dream demon, do the right thing, the thing, akira, song to song, last year at marienbad, antichrist, tokyo drifter, head, raise the red lantern, samurai rebellion, marketa lazarova, big trouble in little china, picnic at hanging rock, the cranes are flying, a woman under the influence, the double life of veronique, bullet ballet, one cut of the dead, police story 3, fear x, censor...
@@whydoiexist2180 the first thing you should do is to not quit when facing stall. Because by actually *facing* stall you will gain experience and that experience can help you with figuring out how to deal with it.
My favorite part of this video is BKC saying he trusts the people in charge of OU and has taken a step back away from it. Sound like an old man watching the new generation take over. 😅
This argument kind of reminds me of late 2017 Smash 4 when Bayonetta was considered overpowered to the point of invalidating every other character and people wanted to unban custom moves as a counterbalance, lol
I remember the custom moves metagame. It was a disaster, but a funny one. (For the record this meta only existed competitively on the 3DS) Bayo should have been banned because she was more uncompetitive than the most broken of items. Instant touch of deaths on the entire roster that requires SDI'ing like crazy to try and live only for them to react to your SDI and do the other touch of death instead halfway through. And when she wasn't doing that she was running away and pecking at you with guns. Also god forbid you got hit by which time.
honestly the discussion of unbanning customs was so laughable to me as someone who played dedede at the time, I considered him the worst character in the game but his customs were stupid strong such as armoured jet hammer, a jet hammer with armour so strong you could armour through a reverse warlock punch at 999% or anything for that matter, counterplay?, just grab him or bait it out which both involve you getting into range of being hit, dedede with customs has no reason to not instantly pull this move out and exclusively use it when he is past 100% then create biased 50/50's until he dies off losing one also if you hit him the breif hitlag makes it a easily reactable punish for dedede so if you end up hitting him while pulling out the move you get punished as well. considering this is a custom on a bad character and ivalidates most the cast while still being tame compared to other customs idk how people didnt realize customs would just murder the game faster
@@sablesalt I don't recall a serious discussion about reintroducing Customs. The consensus after giving it a college try was that they were too good, ESPECIALLY Miis
@@JJSquirtle there never was a serious disscussion of unbanning customs, people brought it up to try and make it one but it got shut down very quickly for very clear reasons such as what I said, also mii were actually good because of small-short mii being hyper mobile with little downsides and the mii customs are actually not that great aside the ones listed below Fighter ultimate uppercut(an upwards hitting dk punch, this one is debatable depending on who you ask) helicopter kick(like mario up special but kills at about 70%), piston punch(multihit kill move similar to fire fox), feint jump(zss down b but more mobile) for fighter. Sword Galestrike(projectile that effortlessly kill confirms), airborne assalt(good burst option similar to diddy monkey flip), chakram(has several angles and speeds, very deadly set up tool from neutral to kill confirms), skyward dash slash(basically the same as piston punch), reversal slash(mario cape as a down special for some reason) for sword fighter. Gunner Charge blast(samus neutral special reskin), laser blaze(fox neutral special reskin),flame pillar(robin side special but doesn't run out), gunner missile(samus side special reskin), canon uppercut( basically shoruken, hits hard and kills early as well as being a good get off me for gunner),echo reflector(fox shine reskin) for gunner. The out ones of the list that are actually considered broken moves are helicopter kick, feint jump, galestrike, chakram and canon upper cut., the reason those are busted is because helicopter kick is very easy to ladder combo into off of most stray hits and kills super early as well as being a get off me tool., feint jump literally is so mobile on top of having I-frames that you can spam it to get a safe approach in neutral, literally just negate any bad positioning by just feint jumping out of the situation, drastically increase recovery options(which more than makes up for helicopter kick going less high that most recoveries), edge gaurd effortlessly since the angle it hits at is brutal as well as the I-frames letting you ignore most up specials otherwise hard to deal with hitboxes, camping is also viable with feint jump since it's amount of mobility from being able to change the direction it goes or cancel it lets you dance around about half the cast and even for the other half they still have trouble since depending on when you cancel the move you get to mix up the period of I-frames and it's unreactable., Galestrike is just straight up a projectile that completely shuts down some characters by using it at a specific range since it forces shield or starts combos for free basically but is bad in other match ups because how long the animation is., Chakram is actually just straight up cracked, it has very little to no endlag, you can angle it and throw it fast which makes it go quite far allowing it to poke but it's real use is the slow toss which makes it a multi hit lingering projectile which both makes approaching very easy since it's not something you can challenge due to mii being able to just hit you out of anything you would use to challenge it as well as it locking characters into shield, you can retreat with it, you can use it to edge gaurd and it kill confirms very easy into up air or up special., Speaking of up special skyward dash slash is the one mii sword uses as it both goes far, is hard to challenge due to disjoint and also can finish ladders by killing off the top or call out air dodge attempts to escape the ladder combos while putting the opponent in an awful position., Canon upper cut just hits really goddamn hard I dont have much to say about it, you can confirm into it easy and it's fast, what more could you want?, oh it also works very well in connunction with up air since that is very disjointed and juggles easy since it is basically like the belmonts up air from ultimate but a multi hit. If you read all this, thx for reading it.
I really hope they have a suspect tournament with mence back in the mix. Like how they’re doing with Sun and Moon Premier League- suspecting previously banned stuff each round. I think one round is too small of a time frame, but an entire tour should paint a very accurate picture. Also, would be cool if you did a vid about why Jirachi is OU and had never been suspected.
I think it'd be very polarizing for the metagame in the same way that when urishifu-s was unbanned in gen 8: if you don't wanna run hyper offence to outpace it, you had to bring ridiculously defensive pokemon to survive it, with the added dimension that mence is amazing at destroying offense
Tldr the stalliest teams become proportionally stronger with stronger offensive tools because balance is forced to run stall mons just to not get run over
Ok I'm kind of proud of myself. Full disclosure I'm am a very little baby when it comes to competitive Pokemon. And I'm loath to leave my comfort zone of the first three generations that I played as a kid. When I got interested in playing competitive I pretty much only consumed content for those generations. (Thank you BKC for you are one of the only people that cover older generations in so much depth😭) so when you kept saying D.D.nighte, I knew dd ment dragon dance, but I was so lost what ddnighte ment. So as I paused to Google the context clues came together in my head to realize you ment dragon dance Dragonite! Turns out I'm not the dullest knife in the drawer....unless I'm wrong and then this would be really embarrassing 😅
Now that I saw this video, I'm wondering if Mew would ever drop down to OU. Factoring the BP nonsense that its good for in Ubers, if that is banned, then maybe Mew might be worthy and balanced for the tier. With the coverage and recovery moves, it can be like Celebi and be a wallbreaker with Fire, Ice, and Psychic coverage. It is still vulnerable to Pokemon like Scarf Ttar and Chople variants, but it can also switch and go to the physical side to beat Blissey(maybe.) And YES, it can metaphorically handle stall with its coverage: for Clefable, Hippowdon, and Latias(for 40% from an Ice Beam lol) I wonder...
Unleashing a pokemon with massive bulk like mew spamming will o wisp might not be a good idea, especially since it has access to both earthquake and earth power, and a recovery move. Honestly I think it will end up making stall stronger.
mew would be busted, its jirachi bulk minus serene grace plus a billion utility moves not limited to explosion, wil o wisp, knock, taunt, instant recovery, seismic toss, rock polish, swords dance and nasty plot. not only would be even better than azelf as an offensive lead, it would be impossible to kill alongside jirachi on defense.
I used to run a gym league on formation back in the DPP days, and the only deviation we had from standard smogon OU clauses was a ban on Salamence. There was some debate about it, but we felt pretty justified when he finally did get banned for real.
Hey BKC, do you think DragMag would see a noticable jump in dpp popularity with the return of mence? I know it's kind of already existed before, but I'm curious if it could see gen 5 levels of popularity or close
Yes, I’ve been playing DPP since 2009 when mence was OU. Drag Mag was very popular. Flygon, Mence, Latias, magnezone and 2 fillers- usually an additional steel for opposing dragon teams. Scizor was #1 in usage back then because of being a check being able to come in on locked outrages and bullet punch with a band and chip damage to KO, or pursuit Latias. Scizor has fallen off a bit since then..
Only a Cresselia could wall mixMence and not even reliably - depending on reciprocal spreads, Rocks + DMeteor + Outrage with life orb would kill anyway. Ice fang spdef Gliscor / Hippo could not even. Bully waters that could tank a +1 outrage (Swampert, Vaporeon, Suicune...?) with 252HP/252Def bold took 50% anyway and mence just pierced through them. Huge solo threat.
@@IschmarVI it's only niche is being a second Rayquaza. Atleast Mence had the satisfaction of mostly outclassing Ray in gen 6 and 7 Ubers with its mega.
If you like the background music in this video and haven’t played Hotline Miami (or just listened to the soundtrack), I highly recommend you do because it has a similar sound.
my love for the drive soundtrack led me to check out hm's soundtrack a while ago. it is indeed excellent. ty though, I'm always up for more recs in this genre
son the topic of unbanning something broken, didn’t that happen with excadrill in gen 5? in the FsG video, apparenlty jellocent cores were so strong they had to unban excadrill for spinning.
yeah thats true, excadrill was initially banned because of sand rush tho, so i personally think mold breaker and sand force excadrill would have led to it being unbanned at some point
Unbanning Salamence bto deal wqith something broken would be like Unbanning Dialga just to deal with Latias or something like that I dont think this is a great example but you guys get the point of what Im saying, its sdtupid, we would end up unbanning everything
semi-stall is essentially a stall-team at its core (so a lot of defensive synergy, recovery, passive damage, yadayadayada). But unlike a "full stall" team, a semi-stall team also has a few more offensive components to it (scarf tyranitar with stealth rock is probably the best example here) and as such, is able to actually threaten an opponent directly in some ways. On the other hand, balance and bulky offense teams are not fundamentally built as stall teams (oh sure, they love their bulky defensive cores and stuff, but they utilize those defensive elements differently - in a more aggression-oriented way such as trying to chip opposing pokemon into kill range for, say, your mixed infernape or so)
the content is great on this channel but it's very hard to follow what you are trying to say without a script, like in 2 and a half minutes you haven't even mentioned Salamence here, I know the whole no editing no scripting thing is your style and you probably do it this way because you don't have the time to do it but it would help tremendously with making everything more clear
Didn’t Semistall bloom around the time Mence and Latias were OU 12 years ago? I don’t see any good reason to unban it Also, I’ll go ahead and say it, stall is not broken and Clefable is overhyped 7:11 I don’t know man. mixmence had to rely on Brick Break, of all things, it was quickly phazed out by Chomp, who was immune to sand and resist rocks, iirc, I only remember Maryland’s team with mence before platinum 10:15 that’s true, and I’m reminded about zard in 6th gen, tbh Smogon has been much more lax ban wise as time went on 12:27 was it really ab exaggeration though? Scizor was like, more used than Lando-t in later gens, Skarm had to run shed shell due to Magnezone, Heatran existed as a scarf user because it was an okay-ish mixmence check (all the shuca, pasho orbtran lead etc came after two dragons got banned), only other set was the torment thingy, and that’s because Shoddy didn’t code that correctly 😏, more people used Forretress over Mie because it could switch into outrage, and oh, both mory and tress were sdef due to draco
thanks for the detailed comment! 1. let's not exaggerate, mence was used in d/p - and used a lot, too. it was a great garchomp partner, and stood well on its own. here's an example from the rmt archive: www.smogon.com/forums/threads/losing-is-an-incapability-100-win-ratio.44188/ since you mentioned marriland, on youtube you can see many battles with symphonyx64's team, which made great use of specsmence. this was not some rare pokemon lol 2. yes, it was an exaggeration. the scizor claim is incorrect - at its absolute peak, it was at 32% usage. the idea that tran only ran scarf or torment is wildly incorrect, too - feel free to flip through the rmt archive to see all the other sets that were commonly used (shuca sr, subtoxic, magma trapper...).
@@BKCplaysPokemon Well, I’m on the phone, I don’t really think I have the capability to do detailed posts like the team raters 😅, but I stand corrected regarding Scizor, I remember that it was at the top of the usage for majority of dppt, only to be dethroned by heatran after latias and mence were banned. Taylor’s team can be considered important in the application and novelty of sashape, especially back then when deoxys- emerald was unbanned and was one of the premier sr users, alongside bullet punch mmash sr explosion metagross who countered it, and well yeah, Infernape was good against that, but I can’t help but cringe at that Salamence, the ev spread and item are a contradiction by itself, no way people used this, so I did a trip down memory lane, I believe this is as precise as we can get regarding mence before platinum cap.smogon.com/ShoddyStats/2008-07/July-SmogonU-AllPokemon.html Dmeteor was the most used move, almost all mences had offensive spreads (I remember wishmence used by some, but that was super niche like ddhealbellnite), but Taylor’s mence was a one-off, other moves like brick break and hydro pump are also there to catch stuff like snorlax, tyra, blissey and heatran, I didn’t meant that Salamence was a joke like Electivire pre-platinum, for example, I remember one of the advantages about scarftar before it became common, was switching on a dm or fire blast, and then but it was definitely outclassed by Garchomp, and was thanks to platinum that it finally gained the top spot of being the most troublesome sweeper, I even remember seeing stuff like Chain chomp, who was basically mixmence with a weaker dm, but with stab eq, immunity to sand and resistance to rocks, you point out that Salamence and Chomp were sometimes seen together, I believe the term was parallel sweeper? It’s been too long since I played on Smogon so 😅, (surprised you even ended up in my recommendations, I’ll sub, because nostalgia is my weak spot though) basically two sweepers that wear their checks so that the other sweeps, and yeah, true, 3 dragons 3 steel/2 steel 1 water was kinda a meme in bw and dppt before the bans, but I’m not convinced that this makes pre-platinum mence a top pick like chomp, in the same vein Lucario and Scizor work the same way as parallel sweepers in dppt and bw, Lucario’s impact in both metagames isn’t on par with scizor. You can also find Heatran, 52% scarf, 19% left, and while left can be argued to represent both toxic and torment, shuca is nowhere to be seen at the time, the initial application of shuca was to better face opposing heatrans and set sr, whether it were a lead or in the back, while pasho trapper I distinctly remember it appearing after latias and mence were gone, because chestokingdra, offensivecune and starmie gor an usage buff, so pasho was a good lure, never liked it, because magma storm had horrible accuracy in dppt, but yeah, several people used it after the bans, before though, it’s a bit more didfixult, due to heatran requiring hp ice and explosion in order to be a somehow okay check for those dragons, and not having enough breathing room to try fun stuff. OT: Excadrill got Mold Breaker later on, but sand force was always usable, it’s okay though, not even God could make heads or tails about BW OU and its ban, unbans and philosophy, I can’t really fault anyone on it 🤣
umbreon became "ou by technicality" a long time ago (pokemon that don't deserve their ou status but the gen is no longer active so they can't go to uu, alongside things like evire and dusknoir) as for clefable, this video was made for you: czcams.com/video/8oDJXe6VrVw/video.html
Was Mence ever considered broken in BW1 (I started playing right before BW2)? I'm curious because the defensive options for checking Mence hardly improved in gen 5 aside from maybe permanent rain helping Steel-types and it even got Moxie. From a BW main, the lack of offensive checks is what rly pushes it over the edge in DPP imo.
I'd say mixed mence which is one of it's most potent sets can be checked with specially defensive Ferro in rain , combined with switching around, mence could be quickly worned down, kinda like infernape. Poison heal gliscor would also be annoying.
I'd say that the biggest thing keeping Salamence in check is actually competition With Multiscale Dragonite is a better Dragon Dance user, Latios is a better Special Dragon if you ever wanted to run Specs Salamence (and Scarf always keeps DD in check), Hydreigon is a better Mixed Mence in some regards, and if you want a Physical Dragon type to break, Haxorus is better And that's without even taking in Garchomp and KB as they came in BW2 solely. In DPP there is barely any opportunity cost to running Salamence as it is the best at almost everything it can try
@@ilovemalaysia Pretty interesting. I didnt asked the forementioned question in a offensive manner, i just find it weird to play in a meta were things are, comparatively ''simpler'' (without saying that is generally simple) while at the same time it's not ''much different'' than the next metas. For example, gen1-2 metas had way different mechanics than now (example no physical/special split), which makes sense to me, for someone wanting to play that format. On the other hand, i find it more enjoyable to play a gen5 ou instead of gen4 ou, cause you have more and better moves, much better abilities(for example ha), weird strats with items started and etc. Gen4 ou fills kinda limited
Comparing Gen 4 and Gen 5 is like night and day tho, all generations have many things unique to them that cannot be replicated in later gens. Tho I personally think the only generation that comes close in fitting your criteria is gen 6, but there might be a lot of people that might want to argue with me on that, especially because most of them don't like dealing with a certain regenerating pokemon.
@@strawberrijam3676 oh I didn't mean it like that, I just answered it literally like yea people do play this meta. Personally I like gen 3 and 4 since the fact that it doesn't have team preview makes it more fun and it's more offensive compared to gen 1/2 . Everyone has their preferences tho.
Is Stealth Rock ban viable? It can be more centralizing than Mence (or even Dug for that matter) due to the sheer amount of Pokemon it forcibly removes.
“Free Giratina” had me terrified, even as a joke, but I can’t deny that it would be funny
"What if BKC Returned ?"
Would also be a fitting name for the video
Great video as always.
Side note : have you considered doing a "state of the older gens" video where you go through the current state of the meta in gens 1-5 and maybe talk about the weirder developments in there ? That'd be a fun thing.
that would be great, but that's a big undertaking
"The weirder developments"
The rise of Lanturn is making this list for sure
personally i’d love to see a BDSP vs DPPT comparison and why some mons fell out of favor. (zapdos is RU in BDSP like holy shit)
@@fulltimeslackerii8229 for Zapdos it's simple : it has mono Electric coverage in BDSP (no okay, it has drill peck lmao)
@@fulltimeslackerii8229 the reasons are pretty simple and likely dont warrant a very long video, the higher tiers have a lot of ground types that flat out counter it. due to it losing hurricane/air slash, its exceptional special attack cant provide the coverage it needs to hit pesky ground types for meaningful damage, as well as losing heat wave, if you were keen on using that. Zapdos also didnt just lose those, of course, it also lost toxic like so many other pokemon, so even its defensive sets were crippled beyond repair. it still had roost and defog, but loosing its major coverage really killed its viability, and it sank to a tier not as dominated by ground types or pokemon that took advantage of its limited coverage.
The funniest people were those that decried stall and entry hazards at the same time.
Love DPP OU, my favourite though absolutely not competitively viable strategy is my ttar-fightingspam team which uses scarf pursuit ttar to remove psychics/ghosts for a bunch of powerful fighting types to wreck havoc with close combat. Its a worse version of Dragmag but its fun to overrun some teams with it on ladder
Just a standard Little Cup strategy (except that since gen 6, the Fighting type can just Spam Knock Off themselves and be fine, and even with the removal of Pursuit this type of team is still really really strong in the meta, I am currently using one and I relatively easily reached 1500 on the ladder with it, which speaks a lot when a hyper offense where your only psychic and Flying resist is a Suicide Lead Pawniard (and technically Sash Abra) and you have absolutely no defensive synergy whatsoever can find success, Fighting spam is one of the most tried and true strats in LC)
pokepaste pls
@@sephikong8323 especially thanks to mienfoo being super good in that tier
@@XtheGAMEmaster Personally, I have found that Scarf Garfetched is the MVP of the team (alongside SD Grassy Seed Grookey) because yeah, Timburr and Mienfoo are super useful and reliable, but man, Galarian Farfetched is such a beast at reliably finishing off weakened teams and revenge killing almost everything (granted, I have learned to always Knock defensive Staryu, it's too reliable at stopping Farfetched from cleaning due to how deceptively bulky it is, like Holy Shit, CC doesn't even KO (very low percentage) after two rounds of rocks, that's crazy).
Sorry for going on a tangent, but I really love this mon in the tier, it's really really good even if it's frequently quite hard to justify on a team
What's your fighting lineup out of curiosity? Gotta have Machamp, Lucario, Breloom, I'd vouch for Primeape as great a soft check for opposing Breloom
so our brave hero has stooped to baiting rage clicks by making the runtime 4 seconds over a perfectly even hour...now i'll have to watch the whole video so i can figure out why those 4 seconds were so important
00:35 "I'm not trying to go on unrelated tangents as much."
*Makes a 1 hour video on DPPT Salamence while spending less than 5 minutes talking about Salamence*
"this image will not move. this is a podcast. anyway"
tune in next week, where I upload an hour-long video titled "history of adv ou" from the metagame's 200 origins to full 386 (including XD), the inventions of TSS, different ttar sets (boah, VILtar), but halfway through I veer off into movies that have been on my mind lately, such as: loves of a blonde, braindead, down by law, alice in the cities, the villainess, beau travail, US go home, portrait of a young girl at the end of the 1960s in brussels, only god forgives, possession, night is short walk on girl, sword of doom, pulse, belladonna of sadness, persona, bubba ho-tep, two-lane blacktop, kolobos, dream demon, do the right thing, the thing, akira, song to song, last year at marienbad, antichrist, tokyo drifter, head, raise the red lantern, samurai rebellion, marketa lazarova, big trouble in little china, picnic at hanging rock, the cranes are flying, a woman under the influence, the double life of veronique, bullet ballet, one cut of the dead, police story 3, fear x, censor...
It was to set up his Z-Celebrate Vaporeon
@@BKCplaysPokemon cant wait
Man you read my mind, I was actually thinking on this week how would be DPP OU if Mence returned and you made a video, thank you :]
i swear blaming stall has become the new “how to identify a low ladder player”. same with “ban lando T”
"ban toxapex"
how do I desl with stall this personally I suck against stall whenever I see it's stall I quit cause I suck at dealing agaidbt them
Stall is to Pokemon what Zoners are to Fighting Games I guess.
@@whydoiexist2180 have more free time than your opponent, stall is the worst on weekends
@@whydoiexist2180 the first thing you should do is to not quit when facing stall. Because by actually *facing* stall you will gain experience and that experience can help you with figuring out how to deal with it.
My favorite part of this video is BKC saying he trusts the people in charge of OU and has taken a step back away from it.
Sound like an old man watching the new generation take over. 😅
This argument kind of reminds me of late 2017 Smash 4 when Bayonetta was considered overpowered to the point of invalidating every other character and people wanted to unban custom moves as a counterbalance, lol
I remember the custom moves metagame. It was a disaster, but a funny one. (For the record this meta only existed competitively on the 3DS)
Bayo should have been banned because she was more uncompetitive than the most broken of items. Instant touch of deaths on the entire roster that requires SDI'ing like crazy to try and live only for them to react to your SDI and do the other touch of death instead halfway through. And when she wasn't doing that she was running away and pecking at you with guns. Also god forbid you got hit by which time.
This is literally similar to the unbanning of Excadrill...
honestly the discussion of unbanning customs was so laughable to me as someone who played dedede at the time, I considered him the worst character in the game but his customs were stupid strong such as armoured jet hammer, a jet hammer with armour so strong you could armour through a reverse warlock punch at 999% or anything for that matter, counterplay?, just grab him or bait it out which both involve you getting into range of being hit, dedede with customs has no reason to not instantly pull this move out and exclusively use it when he is past 100% then create biased 50/50's until he dies off losing one also if you hit him the breif hitlag makes it a easily reactable punish for dedede so if you end up hitting him while pulling out the move you get punished as well.
considering this is a custom on a bad character and ivalidates most the cast while still being tame compared to other customs idk how people didnt realize customs would just murder the game faster
@@sablesalt I don't recall a serious discussion about reintroducing Customs. The consensus after giving it a college try was that they were too good, ESPECIALLY Miis
@@JJSquirtle there never was a serious disscussion of unbanning customs, people brought it up to try and make it one but it got shut down very quickly for very clear reasons such as what I said, also mii were actually good because of small-short mii being hyper mobile with little downsides and the mii customs are actually not that great aside the ones listed below
Fighter
ultimate uppercut(an upwards hitting dk punch, this one is debatable depending on who you ask) helicopter kick(like mario up special but kills at about 70%), piston punch(multihit kill move similar to fire fox), feint jump(zss down b but more mobile) for fighter.
Sword
Galestrike(projectile that effortlessly kill confirms), airborne assalt(good burst option similar to diddy monkey flip), chakram(has several angles and speeds, very deadly set up tool from neutral to kill confirms), skyward dash slash(basically the same as piston punch), reversal slash(mario cape as a down special for some reason) for sword fighter.
Gunner
Charge blast(samus neutral special reskin), laser blaze(fox neutral special reskin),flame pillar(robin side special but doesn't run out), gunner missile(samus side special reskin), canon uppercut( basically shoruken, hits hard and kills early as well as being a good get off me for gunner),echo reflector(fox shine reskin) for gunner.
The out ones of the list that are actually considered broken moves are helicopter kick, feint jump, galestrike, chakram and canon upper cut., the reason those are busted is because
helicopter kick is very easy to ladder combo into off of most stray hits and kills super early as well as being a get off me tool.,
feint jump literally is so mobile on top of having I-frames that you can spam it to get a safe approach in neutral, literally just negate any bad positioning by just feint jumping out of the situation, drastically increase recovery options(which more than makes up for helicopter kick going less high that most recoveries), edge gaurd effortlessly since the angle it hits at is brutal as well as the I-frames letting you ignore most up specials otherwise hard to deal with hitboxes, camping is also viable with feint jump since it's amount of mobility from being able to change the direction it goes or cancel it lets you dance around about half the cast and even for the other half they still have trouble since depending on when you cancel the move you get to mix up the period of I-frames and it's unreactable.,
Galestrike is just straight up a projectile that completely shuts down some characters by using it at a specific range since it forces shield or starts combos for free basically but is bad in other match ups because how long the animation is.,
Chakram is actually just straight up cracked, it has very little to no endlag, you can angle it and throw it fast which makes it go quite far allowing it to poke but it's real use is the slow toss which makes it a multi hit lingering projectile which both makes approaching very easy since it's not something you can challenge due to mii being able to just hit you out of anything you would use to challenge it as well as it locking characters into shield, you can retreat with it, you can use it to edge gaurd and it kill confirms very easy into up air or up special.,
Speaking of up special skyward dash slash is the one mii sword uses as it both goes far, is hard to challenge due to disjoint and also can finish ladders by killing off the top or call out air dodge attempts to escape the ladder combos while putting the opponent in an awful position.,
Canon upper cut just hits really goddamn hard I dont have much to say about it, you can confirm into it easy and it's fast, what more could you want?, oh it also works very well in connunction with up air since that is very disjointed and juggles easy since it is basically like the belmonts up air from ultimate but a multi hit.
If you read all this, thx for reading it.
I really hope they have a suspect tournament with mence back in the mix. Like how they’re doing with Sun and Moon Premier League- suspecting previously banned stuff each round. I think one round is too small of a time frame, but an entire tour should paint a very accurate picture.
Also, would be cool if you did a vid about why Jirachi is OU and had never been suspected.
Excitedly listening to BKC talk about one of my favorite Pokémon as I fall asleep, love love love love your uploads man, hope all is well with you
I think it'd be very polarizing for the metagame in the same way that when urishifu-s was unbanned in gen 8: if you don't wanna run hyper offence to outpace it, you had to bring ridiculously defensive pokemon to survive it, with the added dimension that mence is amazing at destroying offense
Tldr the stalliest teams become proportionally stronger with stronger offensive tools because balance is forced to run stall mons just to not get run over
Ok I'm kind of proud of myself. Full disclosure I'm am a very little baby when it comes to competitive Pokemon. And I'm loath to leave my comfort zone of the first three generations that I played as a kid. When I got interested in playing competitive I pretty much only consumed content for those generations. (Thank you BKC for you are one of the only people that cover older generations in so much depth😭) so when you kept saying D.D.nighte, I knew dd ment dragon dance, but I was so lost what ddnighte ment. So as I paused to Google the context clues came together in my head to realize you ment dragon dance Dragonite! Turns out I'm not the dullest knife in the drawer....unless I'm wrong and then this would be really embarrassing 😅
you are not wrong :3
These are the best videos to fall asleep to.
i dont think stall is broken but i do believe stall is pretty good and a lot of ppl dont like it being above average
True, there's a difference between broken and just generally don't like to play against it
Because Stall forces you to play by their rules. It forces you to play a way you don't want to in order to win.
@@josephhanicak7922 you're not wrong but also a lot of good team types do that. HO is much worse than stall in this regard
Now that I saw this video, I'm wondering if Mew would ever drop down to OU. Factoring the BP nonsense that its good for in Ubers, if that is banned, then maybe Mew might be worthy and balanced for the tier. With the coverage and recovery moves, it can be like Celebi and be a wallbreaker with Fire, Ice, and Psychic coverage. It is still vulnerable to Pokemon like Scarf Ttar and Chople variants, but it can also switch and go to the physical side to beat Blissey(maybe.) And YES, it can metaphorically handle stall with its coverage: for Clefable, Hippowdon, and Latias(for 40% from an Ice Beam lol) I wonder...
Unleashing a pokemon with massive bulk like mew spamming will o wisp might not be a good idea, especially since it has access to both earthquake and earth power, and a recovery move. Honestly I think it will end up making stall stronger.
mew would be busted, its jirachi bulk minus serene grace plus a billion utility moves not limited to explosion, wil o wisp, knock, taunt, instant recovery, seismic toss, rock polish, swords dance and nasty plot. not only would be even better than azelf as an offensive lead, it would be impossible to kill alongside jirachi on defense.
Take a shot everytime BKC says "uh"
The single most frustrating thing about this video is staring at “Beserker”. It’s BeRserker, dammit!
the 2011 misspellings haha
Great video, you always put out hits
So your not Logan from the movie Logan? Wow the betrayal
I used to run a gym league on formation back in the DPP days, and the only deviation we had from standard smogon OU clauses was a ban on Salamence. There was some debate about it, but we felt pretty justified when he finally did get banned for real.
Hey BKC, do you think DragMag would see a noticable jump in dpp popularity with the return of mence? I know it's kind of already existed before, but I'm curious if it could see gen 5 levels of popularity or close
Yes, I’ve been playing DPP since 2009 when mence was OU. Drag Mag was very popular. Flygon, Mence, Latias, magnezone and 2 fillers- usually an additional steel for opposing dragon teams.
Scizor was #1 in usage back then because of being a check being able to come in on locked outrages and bullet punch with a band and chip damage to KO, or pursuit Latias. Scizor has fallen off a bit since then..
definitely, people almost never used cbnite in the latimence era whereas they def would now and that'd be brutal
@@Last_Respecterdpp in those days was an entirely different landscape
BKC podcast W
Only a Cresselia could wall mixMence and not even reliably - depending on reciprocal spreads, Rocks + DMeteor + Outrage with life orb would kill anyway. Ice fang spdef Gliscor / Hippo could not even. Bully waters that could tank a +1 outrage (Swampert, Vaporeon, Suicune...?) with 252HP/252Def bold took 50% anyway and mence just pierced through them.
Huge solo threat.
I will just say I totally enjoy when you go on an unrelated tangent so I don't mind if you keep doing them :)
1hour bkc. Fuck yeah
New BKC video hell yeah!!!
You feel stall is too strong and want to bring Salamence back
I just feel bad for Salamence and how much it sucks in Ubers
We are not the same
I mean, in theory it's not even a bad pokemon. The problem is that, well ... Rayquaza exists.
@@IschmarVI it's only niche is being a second Rayquaza. Atleast Mence had the satisfaction of mostly outclassing Ray in gen 6 and 7 Ubers with its mega.
I was hoping for a series like this!
Yay BKC content back!
Maybe switch the Latis on the banlist. It would either work or be a hilarious trainwreck
we've been rewarded for our patience
Gen4 OU with salamence sound fun even if it ends up broken
If you like the background music in this video and haven’t played Hotline Miami (or just listened to the soundtrack), I highly recommend you do because it has a similar sound.
my love for the drive soundtrack led me to check out hm's soundtrack a while ago. it is indeed excellent. ty though, I'm always up for more recs in this genre
Can't believe you released this without our resident mence believer Jirachee in call :(
That was a fast notification for an upload 9 seconds
I'd love to see a vid about your thoughts on Latias in ADV OU!
32 recover pp, dude calm mind refresh dragon claw recover latias would absolutely destroy OU even without soul dew
@@anitabath2636 not to mention hardly any real weakness due to the lack of phys/spec split and her speed, basically a crocune on roids lol
whoa!
THE KING IS BACK!!!
Is stall even good in DPP? I got laughed at for doing it and told hyper offense was the only valid method. Did something big change in 7 months?
whoever told you that was wrong no matter when it was said
@BKC thank you for the feed back ^^ I really enjoy stall so I was kind of heartbroken lol.
would be nice to get salamence back ou
son the topic of unbanning something broken, didn’t that happen with excadrill in gen 5? in the FsG video, apparenlty jellocent cores were so strong they had to unban excadrill for spinning.
yeah thats true, excadrill was initially banned because of sand rush tho, so i personally think mold breaker and sand force excadrill would have led to it being unbanned at some point
wait didnt bkc write that episode?
Yeah but they still banned the thing that made it so broken when they eventually did unban it (Sand Rush)
I think it was brought back cuz magic guard spikes offense is going crazy, with zam and reun being the main problems
@@ilovemalaysia yeah it was a lot of reasons, but the metagame just wasnt in a healthy state due to hazards and its abusers in general
He returns!!
I love u BKC!!!
Unbanning Salamence bto deal wqith something broken would be like Unbanning Dialga just to deal with Latias or something like that
I dont think this is a great example but you guys get the point of what Im saying, its sdtupid, we would end up unbanning everything
HYPE
Heat visuals. Audio was meh.
Jksjsk
So when is the DPP tournament videos coming out?
when I feel like it (who knows)
at 21:00 is the background music Mega Drive perhaps? Sounds a lot like them
Video starts 7:00
hi. competitive channel viewer only. not a player. what is semi stall and how is it difference from “balance” or “bulky offense”?
semi-stall is essentially a stall-team at its core (so a lot of defensive synergy, recovery, passive damage, yadayadayada). But unlike a "full stall" team, a semi-stall team also has a few more offensive components to it (scarf tyranitar with stealth rock is probably the best example here) and as such, is able to actually threaten an opponent directly in some ways.
On the other hand, balance and bulky offense teams are not fundamentally built as stall teams (oh sure, they love their bulky defensive cores and stuff, but they utilize those defensive elements differently - in a more aggression-oriented way such as trying to chip opposing pokemon into kill range for, say, your mixed infernape or so)
Salamence
the content is great on this channel but it's very hard to follow what you are trying to say without a script, like in 2 and a half minutes you haven't even mentioned Salamence here, I know the whole no editing no scripting thing is your style and you probably do it this way because you don't have the time to do it but it would help tremendously with making everything more clear
mence is my favourite pseudo legendary but there’s no logical reason for it to be re introduced into g4 ou
Big Stall got to you… how much were you paid to make this video?
32 PP
Didn’t Semistall bloom around the time Mence and Latias were OU 12 years ago? I don’t see any good reason to unban it
Also, I’ll go ahead and say it, stall is not broken and Clefable is overhyped
7:11 I don’t know man. mixmence had to rely on Brick Break, of all things, it was quickly phazed out by Chomp, who was immune to sand and resist rocks, iirc, I only remember Maryland’s team with mence before platinum
10:15 that’s true, and I’m reminded about zard in 6th gen, tbh Smogon has been much more lax ban wise as time went on
12:27 was it really ab exaggeration though? Scizor was like, more used than Lando-t in later gens, Skarm had to run shed shell due to Magnezone, Heatran existed as a scarf user because it was an okay-ish mixmence check (all the shuca, pasho orbtran lead etc came after two dragons got banned), only other set was the torment thingy, and that’s because Shoddy didn’t code that correctly 😏, more people used Forretress over Mie because it could switch into outrage, and oh, both mory and tress were sdef due to draco
thanks for the detailed comment!
1. let's not exaggerate, mence was used in d/p - and used a lot, too. it was a great garchomp partner, and stood well on its own. here's an example from the rmt archive: www.smogon.com/forums/threads/losing-is-an-incapability-100-win-ratio.44188/
since you mentioned marriland, on youtube you can see many battles with symphonyx64's team, which made great use of specsmence. this was not some rare pokemon lol
2. yes, it was an exaggeration. the scizor claim is incorrect - at its absolute peak, it was at 32% usage. the idea that tran only ran scarf or torment is wildly incorrect, too - feel free to flip through the rmt archive to see all the other sets that were commonly used (shuca sr, subtoxic, magma trapper...).
@@BKCplaysPokemon Well, I’m on the phone, I don’t really think I have the capability to do detailed posts like the team raters 😅, but I stand corrected regarding Scizor, I remember that it was at the top of the usage for majority of dppt, only to be dethroned by heatran after latias and mence were banned.
Taylor’s team can be considered important in the application and novelty of sashape, especially back then when deoxys- emerald was unbanned and was one of the premier sr users, alongside bullet punch mmash sr explosion metagross who countered it, and well yeah, Infernape was good against that, but I can’t help but cringe at that Salamence, the ev spread and item are a contradiction by itself, no way people used this, so I did a trip down memory lane, I believe this is as precise as we can get regarding mence before platinum
cap.smogon.com/ShoddyStats/2008-07/July-SmogonU-AllPokemon.html
Dmeteor was the most used move, almost all mences had offensive spreads (I remember wishmence used by some, but that was super niche like ddhealbellnite), but Taylor’s mence was a one-off, other moves like brick break and hydro pump are also there to catch stuff like snorlax, tyra, blissey and heatran, I didn’t meant that Salamence was a joke like Electivire pre-platinum, for example, I remember one of the advantages about scarftar before it became common, was switching on a dm or fire blast, and then but it was definitely outclassed by Garchomp, and was thanks to platinum that it finally gained the top spot of being the most troublesome sweeper, I even remember seeing stuff like Chain chomp, who was basically mixmence with a weaker dm, but with stab eq, immunity to sand and resistance to rocks, you point out that Salamence and Chomp were sometimes seen together, I believe the term was parallel sweeper? It’s been too long since I played on Smogon so 😅, (surprised you even ended up in my recommendations, I’ll sub, because nostalgia is my weak spot though) basically two sweepers that wear their checks so that the other sweeps, and yeah, true, 3 dragons 3 steel/2 steel 1 water was kinda a meme in bw and dppt before the bans, but I’m not convinced that this makes pre-platinum mence a top pick like chomp, in the same vein Lucario and Scizor work the same way as parallel sweepers in dppt and bw, Lucario’s impact in both metagames isn’t on par with scizor.
You can also find Heatran, 52% scarf, 19% left, and while left can be argued to represent both toxic and torment, shuca is nowhere to be seen at the time, the initial application of shuca was to better face opposing heatrans and set sr, whether it were a lead or in the back, while pasho trapper I distinctly remember it appearing after latias and mence were gone, because chestokingdra, offensivecune and starmie gor an usage buff, so pasho was a good lure, never liked it, because magma storm had horrible accuracy in dppt, but yeah, several people used it after the bans, before though, it’s a bit more didfixult, due to heatran requiring hp ice and explosion in order to be a somehow okay check for those dragons, and not having enough breathing room to try fun stuff.
OT: Excadrill got Mold Breaker later on, but sand force was always usable, it’s okay though, not even God could make heads or tails about BW OU and its ban, unbans and philosophy, I can’t really fault anyone on it 🤣
well i'm back to gen 4 OU
No!!! The unrelated tangents are so good!
Algorithm comment. Love to see you making vids again :)
pokemon are throwing rocks at me, lets ban Jirachi
Salamence went from underwhelming (yet solid and viable) in ADV to broken in dpp without any significant changes to itself or its movepool
mence is not even close to underwhelming in adv and dpp saw it receive draco meteor and outrage, with roost to boot
Okay, so I haven't played DPP OU since 2011. When did Clefable run the world and why is Umbreon OU when Baton Pass is banned?
umbreon became "ou by technicality" a long time ago (pokemon that don't deserve their ou status but the gen is no longer active so they can't go to uu, alongside things like evire and dusknoir)
as for clefable, this video was made for you: czcams.com/video/8oDJXe6VrVw/video.html
@@BKCplaysPokemon I actually saw your Clefable vid I the recommended videos lol ty!
The vid just started and you're already spreading Big Stall propaganda, smfh.
Who?
I've always hated stall, just not a playstyle
Do you think it can come back if Dragon Dance was banned on it?
that'd be the wrong type of complex ban so no (you'd have to ban dd on every pokemon for it to make sense)
Complex ban yuck!!!!
Was Mence ever considered broken in BW1 (I started playing right before BW2)? I'm curious because the defensive options for checking Mence hardly improved in gen 5 aside from maybe permanent rain helping Steel-types and it even got Moxie. From a BW main, the lack of offensive checks is what rly pushes it over the edge in DPP imo.
I'd say mixed mence which is one of it's most potent sets can be checked with specially defensive Ferro in rain , combined with switching around, mence could be quickly worned down, kinda like infernape. Poison heal gliscor would also be annoying.
I'd say that the biggest thing keeping Salamence in check is actually competition
With Multiscale Dragonite is a better Dragon Dance user, Latios is a better Special Dragon if you ever wanted to run Specs Salamence (and Scarf always keeps DD in check), Hydreigon is a better Mixed Mence in some regards, and if you want a Physical Dragon type to break, Haxorus is better
And that's without even taking in Garchomp and KB as they came in BW2 solely. In DPP there is barely any opportunity cost to running Salamence as it is the best at almost everything it can try
you said it yourself - bw is much, much faster AND stronger, whereas in dpp mence's 100 speed is too much for how strong it is
do people still play this meta?
Of course
@@ilovemalaysia Pretty interesting. I didnt asked the forementioned question in a offensive manner, i just find it weird to play in a meta were things are, comparatively ''simpler'' (without saying that is generally simple) while at the same time it's not ''much different'' than the next metas.
For example, gen1-2 metas had way different mechanics than now (example no physical/special split), which makes sense to me, for someone wanting to play that format.
On the other hand, i find it more enjoyable to play a gen5 ou instead of gen4 ou, cause you have more and better moves, much better abilities(for example ha), weird strats with items started and etc. Gen4 ou fills kinda limited
Comparing Gen 4 and Gen 5 is like night and day tho, all generations have many things unique to them that cannot be replicated in later gens.
Tho I personally think the only generation that comes close in fitting your criteria is gen 6, but there might be a lot of people that might want to argue with me on that, especially because most of them don't like dealing with a certain regenerating pokemon.
@@strawberrijam3676 oh I didn't mean it like that, I just answered it literally like yea people do play this meta. Personally I like gen 3 and 4 since the fact that it doesn't have team preview makes it more fun and it's more offensive compared to gen 1/2 . Everyone has their preferences tho.
Old gens have plenty of big tournaments, with Smogon Classic in June being absolutely massive.
Reban Latias and take jirachi with it smh
Is Stealth Rock ban viable? It can be more centralizing than Mence (or even Dug for that matter) due to the sheer amount of Pokemon it forcibly removes.
Just rapid spin