The History of Clefable's Rise in DPP OU
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- čas přidán 12. 09. 2024
- Patreon: / pokemonbkc
Links used in video below:
Music: • Sinnoh シンオウ Pokemon Lo...
Jirachee's Blissey team: www.smogon.com...
Thread with the summer 2012 log of me vs. Earthworm where EW used Clef: www.smogon.com...
Post with the early 2013 DPP tour finals log of panamaxis using Clef against Cyberodin: www.smogon.com...
Post with the fall 2013 log of Heist using Clef against pana: www.smogon.com...
Tesung using Hot N Cold's Clef team against SoulWind in Smogon Tour semis: replay.pokemon...
Sweepage using my Clef team against Tesung in Smogon Tour finals: replay.pokemon...
boudouche using his Clef team against Fakes in SPL 6: replay.pokemon...
Tamahome debuting Knock Off Clef in the first Clef mirror against Fakes' CMer in SPL 6: replay.pokemon...
Heist using a first draft of his hugely influential Clef team, still using CM, against Bad Ass in SPL 6: replay.pokemon...
Heist using the more impactful Knock Clef version against Lady Bug in SPL 6: replay.pokemon...
My Clef stall team against ToF using my old TSpikes offense in Smogon Tour: replay.pokemon...
Shake using I Crawled against xray in Wold Cup: replay.pokemon...
SPL 9 usage: www.smogon.com...
SPL 10 usage: www.smogon.com...
BIHI using my Dug Clef team against Vay in SPL 11: replay.pokemon...
Excal using his Dug Clef team against Honor in SPL 11: replay.pokemon...
Heist using CM Clef against GaryTheGengar in SPL 11: replay.pokemon...
SPL 11 usage: www.smogon.com...
If you want to see more, browse for replays in the Smogon Tour, Smogon Premier League and World Cup of Pokemon subforums here: www.smogon.com...
Important: Fakes informed me that he was the first to use Knock Off Clef, and he was the one who passed it on to Tama. Thanks for watching :)
...and august just informed me that Veteran In Love (VIL) used it before Fakes. The more you know!
update no. 2: tama says he can't remember when he first used it but he didn't get it from fakes. this kinda thing can be contentious.
@@BKCplaysPokemon Discourse in the competitive scene, what a shocker
Magic Guard LO stab double edge was such a fun way to use clef I miss it.
the uu special!!!
Omg its weedle twineedle
Hi weedle luv u!!!!
Hello dad
Clefable Weakness Policy Double Edge Pls
So you're telling me people discovered how good was Clefable in gen 6/7/8, so they just applied this concept to gen 4 and now Clefable dominates yet another competitive generation?
as is outlined in the video, I don't think it directly drew from clef being good in gen 6 because it was proven to be useful before xy even came out. I think it's more that the timing with more people looking for tools to handle the hazard-heavy meta simply coincided with gen 6.
@@BKCplaysPokemon but on the other hand, I am pretty sure that clefable becoming popular in XY definitely helped to make more and more people realize that it has actually been good for several generations, let's say: it ensured that cleff got the recognition it needed to become more than sort of an "insider pick".
I can see it play out like this "ooh, boy ... hazards are dominating my precious stall team .. what should I do?" *accidentally looks at gen 6 OU instead of gen 4* ... "wait .. this pokemon called clefable ... that exists in gen 4, right? Let's try it out!"
@@BKCplaysPokemonis sure r not
@@BKCplaysPokemon uu啊
Something that I think is really cool is how people realize how good knock off was after the gen 6 buffs and started using the pre-buff version of it in past generations
Hariyama in gen 3.
Also caused a rise in thief usage too although that’s more fringey but it’s nice utility for pokes that don’t get much in the way of utility
TIL Magic Guard prevents full paralysis in DPP.
Back when I used to play DPPt way back in 2009 I ran a sandstorm stall team with Clefable on it to negate sandstorm chip, I won't pretend that I knew what I was doing as I was totally new to comp, but even back then through playtesting there were small little benefits that I picked up on. I'm glad to see it gets more recognition these days
Clefable has the best character development of every single Pokémon.Ever.
Clefable was pretty much a diet Chansey with better Physcial bulk and attack in Gen 1 but Chansey was just mostly better
It got better in GSC,Belly Drum made it a better sweeper and not to mention it’s main competition from last gen had evolved and it’s evolution wasn’t that common but Clef was still a niche pick and outclassed kinda by Snorlax
ADV was a low point as Blissey was the best it had ever been and Snorlax was back with Fighting types beginning to rise such as Heracross and Hariyama
DPP began with Clef being outclassed by Blissey once again,but it had a big rise later on and began a legitimate top 15 Pokémon in OU thanks to incredible diversity,Magic Guard and good special bulk and attack
BW was the all time lowest point with Fighting types all over the place in all three tiers it could be used in and its stats were really starting to show
XY was Clefable Strikes Back.It became one of the best Pokémon in OU,even more so then DPP.It was could fit on almost any team with like 10 different sets and was even considered the true number one along with Mega Metagross
SM came and while it wasn’t quite as dominant even being UU at one point it came back and proved it was a good choice overall
SWSH however made Clefable into the undisputed number one OU Pokémon,Supporting usage on the same level as the former king of OU landorus-T because of Teleport,Wish and Protect endlessly supporting its teammates
Swsh is so weird. Clefable at the very top, TTar at its lowest point of all time, Aegislash not even close to being broken, the ugliest mon of all time (Dracovish) having a move that eclipses even Kyogre Water Spout in raw damage etc
@@santasangre996 Actually Sir Vish could use max power Fishious Rend with 1 hp when you need to be carefull with Kyogre Water Spout
@@pabloarammasmanian5391 yes i know
NEXT 👏ARC 👏
@@santasangre996 :^(
Apologies for the off-topic but OMG I didn't remember Rotom-Wash's original sprite look so traumatized (in comparison to future ones where it's really happy). Makes me wonder what the hell they put inside that washing machine.
It was still Electric Ghost back then- so that trauma look goes with the possessed washing machine it was.
I stopped playing when BW was released. Yesterday I went to check up on what pokemon were being used and it was fascinating to see that so many different pokemon are being used in DPP OU. I would love to see videos explaining how Nidoqueen, Dugtrio and Crobat became popular meta picks and how Jirachi went from just a regular OU mon to one of the most played and meta-defining pokemon of gen 4 OU
Dugtrio cuz trapping
The DPP meta looks terrifying
Its insane the amount of things clef can viabley run in DPP ou. Rarely has sticky barb ever been useful but clef can make even that work.
The 72 defense EVs reminds me of an emvee spread to hit the even 200 defense
Not the chinese clefable...
Clefable is such a GOAT mon, it's that kinda mon i'd wanna go and spam on the ladder lmao
I am here because a Clef carried last Pokemon Stadium Tournament winner team, and it was very overlooked as well!
As a guy who played DPP competitively at the time, but stopped before B/W, this video is very interesting to me. I'll be adding comments here as running commentary.
To start out, about the expected changes:
- I would expect more changes than just Heatran changing movesets, because I know tiers work by usage (popularity first) and Pokémon quality is only used to decide banlists (Ubers, BL, etc), a BL Pokémon isn't too weak for OU, it's too strong for UU, it just so happens to be not used very much in OU.
Usage (popularity) is also an indicator of quality, and with perfect metagame players and teambuilders, it would be the exact indicator of quality. But the reality is that the players aren't perfect, most were kids or casuals (look at the history of the Gyarados and Electivire combo usage in DPP, which was a lot more common in bad players than good players), and even the best players aren't perfect. So, of course the metagame will change over time, especially as nowadays interest in DPP multiplayer has probably a much more competent metagame playerbase, but also much smaller.
The changes I would expect would be the top-20 getting reordered, but not much, and some dropping out and some of the below getting in. But, since in another video you said that there are new bans now, I would actually expect some radical changes.
- I would expect Clefable to one day rise in usage, but that's just because I was always a fan of its versatility tied to its bulk with access to Softboiled (I remember a time where a lot of great Pokémon were hampered by having to use Rest for recovery).
I'm at the start of the video. It seems you are implying it has become central to the metagame, like Blissey or Garchomp used to be, if that's the case, I wasn't expecting that at all.
Ok, "largely eclipsed Blissey" sounds amazing and too good to be true.
It's funny that you mention a Calm Mind set, which I've used in a lot of in-game. Clefable really is so cool.
I think it's normal that top players understood Clefable's potential before other people, like me, I liked Clefable but didn't see it as a game winner Pokémon in OU.
I remember when climbing the ladder, I would get to a point where the teams started changing, Pokémon you weren't used to seeing showed up and players made predictions much better. I remember getting completely slapped by a Nidoqueen, which was unexpected to say the least.
I'm really liking the video so far. Very informative and factual.
It seems that what makes Clefable a game winner is that neutral turns are advantageous towards the player with the Clefable. Blissey was so good and central to the metagame because you could just turn off your brain, send in the pink blob and stop your opponents Special Attacking momentum. Clefable seems to me that its better to break a lot more types of momentum, namely ruining a lot of supporters.
> Heist sent out Nidoqueen
triggered
BDSP gave Clef's Fairy Typing but removed Clef's Softboiled. You giveth, you taketh.
Still has moonlight and wish, and softboiled will comeback when Home connectivity comes out.
@@EM7575 well uh
banning a uu mon in OU would be hella wild XD
fun fact: back in the days when x and y were the main games uu banned venomoth to uubl.
but venomoth was nu at the time lol
Dugtrio dpp ou
p sure it was more of the ability being banned rather than the Pokemon itself. Dugtrio is UU proper and Arena Trap is allowed there.
@@TheDunsparceGames well this happened again. Arctozolt got banned from UU right as it was about to become untiered (so it was in PU).
good solid info and entertaining, good stuff
i always loved clef, from gen 1 my first run ever back in the 90's i used a clef all out attack (ice beam+tbolt+flamethrower+double-edge) ahaha so great to see its evolution, i dont think any pokemon can ever match the delevopment this pink blob ever had lol
Nidoqueen was so frequent!
Was Thief always "prevalent" (I don't really know that much about the tier, I'm just assuming based on the battles I've watched on your channel) in GSC OU or was it popularised later on in its lifetime akin to Knock Off in later gens?
thief was definitely always a thing, and just like clef, people looked to spam it in greater quantities in attempts to better deal with the dominant stall teams - also like clef, the recent timing of such teams has merely coincided with the knock-heavy new generations, but I don't think it's directly influenced by it. thief skarm/egg/nido/gar were around since the very beginning.
@@BKCplaysPokemon Thank you for answering!
Great video, very informative and well structured
Love the DPPt content man!
Wasn't sure if you were still serving on the old gen councils but wanted to ask if you guys would ever look at retiering some of the mons who's usage and viability has not been reflected by their tier. Thinking specifically of obviously clef being OU but also something like Nidoqueen moving up to OU or Electivire and Dusknoir being allowed to drop to UU.
Love to hear your thoughts!
thanks! I actually stepped down from the councils recently but I did try to do something like this only to get shot down by the higher ups. I thought it was silly but eh. I would move evire/noir to BL so as not to mess with uu and in a similar vein make clef/nido/dug "honorary ou." maybe someday someone else will feel like having that debate on my behalf but I was pretty burned out on all the stupid hoops that had to be jumped through in order to make common sense decisions
@@BKCplaysPokemon I have a question. Why not mess with UU? As we all know gens are not static and tiering changes do happen that greatly effect the old OU gens so why can the same not be done for the all of old lower tier gens. for example GSC NU has had some very significant bans in the forum of raichu and golduck and those happened later on.
Is it because DPP UU does not have many games going on for play testing? I guess its possible that some pokemon could be broken when dropped into uu (I cannot imagine how the tier would beat togekiss) but those can always just be banned when proven to be busted.
@@kingwailord4143 gsc nu was not an established tier until comparatively recently - as in, "NU" as we currently know it didn't exist at all until dpp. on the other hand, dpp uu is an established tier and given that it no longer is in official tournaments, i.e. anyone who plays it is only playing it because they love the tier, there's no reason to uproot it.
Oh I totally called this back in the day, I'm proud of Clefable.
I played during DP and I thought Clefable was good. Felt bad for it that it wasn't OU when Magic Guard was so OP, and I wasn't at the maturity point where I could respect non-OU Pokemon in OU. Feels nice to see that Clefable was in fact one of the best in the format.
Also feels nice that it is still officially UU which means, it can terrorize that tier as well with its legendary life orb double edge set :D
Gen eight OU wants to have a word with you....
In 2012 you brought Clefable against me in POCL allstars and I accused you of being cheap. I was so annoyed by it that I responded in game 2 by bringing baton pass 😂 at the time, to me, it was the same level of strategy
Can you post a video about how sparsely used Rhydon is in GSC OU? Like, I haven’t seen the mon for a very long time after playing a large chunk of GSC OU and on paper, he just my seems to be outclassed by Tyranitar.
He is ... ?
?
Could be a useful addition to a video on golem's large rise in usage
@@llamaryder1 Yeah, because of Rapid Spin.
And outclassed by Golem of all things.
Which if you know about the current happenings of RBY is like the ultimate karma.
Only bkc can get me listening 40min about a Pokémon I have a deep seated hatred for in most forms
Ur videos are literally so good
I always find it amusing that the ones who benefit the most from Seismic Toss are Normal walls instead of strong hitting fighting types.
Interesting how prominent Clefable is in gen 4 OU and gen 6 OU, but nowhere to be seen in the gen 5 meta game
Fighting types truly went crazy in Gen 5
This didn't age well
I think i saw in one of your bw teams during the ladder series and it was clefable sun lol. How big of a meme is that really? What is the point? Or just a joke? Love the vids
lmao 100% a joke. thanks much :)
Clef is broken on all the even gens(4,6,8)
What about 0?
Did someone say Clefable??
would love if you could supply some of these clef teams! i want to give them a whirl
would twave be useful at all on clef? it would be nice to punish typical switchins like pre-pheal loom, tar, skarm, and gengar and let a slower sweeper like sd scizor or dd nite go crazy vs clef’s counter
for sure. T-wave doing t-wave things on a bulky pokemon is always a very viable option. Maybe not so much on the calm mind set because that one is already suffering from 4-move-syndrom but on the supporter, it's a very viable 4th move.
@@IschmarVIthanks for the (albeit late) answer. yeah i definitely wouldn’t want to run mono-attacking cm clef just for twave
Great video :)
Hey BKC, have you ever thought about making a video about random factors in competitive ? Do you like it they way it is, or would you change it (slightly or big changes), how to prevent it or play around it, etc...
At least we can all agree that Clefable is and has always been a Normal-type.
clefable finds a way to be annoying in any metagame it finds itself in -____-
theodore i guess Teleport 😭
Gen eight
Smh
BRO I NEED THIS VIDEO...
I'M MAKING A VIDEO ABOUT PBR AND I NEED THIS FOOTAGE ABOUT CLEFABLE CAN I USE IT PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE!!!!
go nuts lol
@@BKCplaysPokemon I'M ALREADY GOING AHHHH
@@BKCplaysPokemon hello
It turns out I didn't need it...
But here it is
czcams.com/video/9ZVL8QaC2AM/video.html
And now its even more broken because its a fairy type
why does nobody use toxic on clefable
the last slot is always up for grabs and toxic clef def has value to fuck with swampert in particular as well as ttar and gliscor switches. other moves just tend to be favored but tox is an underrated, solid choice.
It's very viable but a) immunities are everywhere and b) toxic is one of those moves every pokemon learns so it's not taking advantage of one of Clef's defining traits: its movepool. Opportunity cost and whatnot
@@llamaryder1 a is a good argument, b would also include thunder wave
@@tobiasrheker5738 t wave is a bit more exclusive than Toxic, but I get what you mean. It also deals with a lot of clefables counters as well as benefitting common teammates more. Also the abundance of t Spikes in gen 4 ou means that the meta has taken steps to counter playstyles revolving around toxic stalling as well as making t Spikes on a teammate a stronger/safer option to take on swampert etc. Finally, clef can often beat many of the things it's supposed to beat without needing Toxic, so toxic ends up being niche. It's a viable move, I would just rather use something else and run Toxic or t Spikes on something else and utilize clefables extensive movepool in other ways
Would clefable work in a trick room team?
bad special attack, lack of good special normal stab, attack is bad, youre much better off running something like specs eruption heatran on trick room
@@TheDunsparceGames thank you for the tips man I'm trying to mix it up so I'm not using the same teams and pokemon others are using its really difficult I'm finding if you dont play to the meta
He ro even metagross would work
it might work on some trick room teams but probably not as a sweeker but rather as a defensive backbone pick that can deal with some stuff your team would be weak to otherwise. As a sweeper ... clefable is not the "get in and do as much damage as possible within 4 turns" type of pokemon so it wouldn' benefit that much from trick room - although it might sometimes help getting a few quick calm minds in before getting hit with strong special moves.
I hate facing clef lmao!
What browser do you use
what the heck is with the high pitched squeal