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The Albigensian Crusade Podcast
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- čas přidán 15. 04. 2016
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Join J Stephen Roberts, Rand Brown, and special guest Paul Copenhagen for a discussion of the Albigensian Crusade (1209-1229). At the dawn of the thirteenth century, Pope Innocent III determined that the Cathar heresy spreading throughout the Occitan could no longer be endured. Therefore, he called on the Kingdom of France to launch a crusade to take control of the Languedoc and restore orthodoxy. Simon of Montfort, a great northern French lord, would emerge as the crusade's dynamic leader.
Thanks to Dr. Helena Schrader for providing the photographs of the Occitan for this podcast!
Excellent overview avoiding the usual idealization of the Cathars or glossing over the brutality and power politics behind the "crusaders." I particularly liked your summary of how different the Langue d'Oc was and the attitudes of the local nobility, as well as their motives for fighting. Also very good points about how "easy" it was to "crusade" in France, and the Spanish interests. Well done!
The phrase "Kill them, for 'the Lord knoweth them that are His,' " did not come from a letter of Arnald Amalric, though he does profess to a great slaughter of the Albigensians in his letter to the Pope. It comes from the "Dialogue of Miracles" by the German Cistercian Cæsarius of Heisterbach, Part V, Chapter 21: "For in so great a manner did the error of the Albigenses [or “people of Albi”] prevail, that in a short space of time it had infected up to a thousand cities, and if it had not been repressed by the swords of the faithful, I think that it would have corrupted the whole of Europe. In the year of Our Lord 1210, a crusade [literally, “the Cross”] was preached against the Albigenses in the whole of Germany [“tota Alamannia,” though in German authors “Alamannia” is usually restricted to Southern Germany] and France, and from Germany there arose against them in the following year Luitpold, the Duke of Austria; Engelbert, then the Provost, afterwards the Archbishop of Köln, and his brother Adolf, Count of Altenberg; Wilhelm, Count of Jülich, and many others of various ranks and dignities. It was done similarly in the Île-de-France [literally, “France,” but the mention of the other duchies makes clear that the more specific meaning applies here], Normandy, and Poitou. The preacher and the head of all these was Arnaud, Abbot of Cîteaux, afterward the Archbishop of Narbonne. Coming to a great city, which is called ‘Béziers,’ in which there were said to be more than 100,000 people, they besieged it. In their sight the heretics, pissing on the book of the sacred Gospel, hurled it down from the wall against the Christians, and shooting arrows after it, yelled, ‘Look, there is your law, wretches!’ To be sure, Christ, the sower [or “spreader” or “originator”] of that Gospel, did not leave the insult cast against Him unavenged; for certain guards [or “adherents, followers,” even “camp-followers”], enflamed with the zeal of the Faith, like lions, according to the the example of those in the book of the Maccabees [cf. 2 Macc. XI. xi.], with their ladders set against them boldly scaled the walls; and the heretics, terrified by the divine power and climbing down, and opening the gates to their pursuers, they gained the city. Recognizing by the admissions of those people that there were Catholics mixed in with the heretics, they said to the Abbot, ‘What should we do, my Lord? We are not able to distinguish between the good ones and the bad ones.’ The Abbot, fearing to leave any, so that they would not pass themselves off as Catholics out of so great a fear of death, and after they themselves [sc., the Crusaders] had departed would return to their perfidy, is reported to have said, ‘Cut them down [or ‘kill them’]; for “the Lord knoweth them that are his” ’ [cf. 2 Tim. II. xix.]; and so innumerable people were killed in that city.”
Kill 'em All let God sort them out so that the scare of death does not turn them into Catholics.
excellent... I have read and studied this off and on for some time and to hear each of your perspectives really opens it all up so clearly .. Once again I thank you.
At about 36 min The speaker mentions that Pope Leo was being ignored in what he had to say. Is there a sense that later In the south France issue, Leo's men lacked confidence because of how badly his man Pelagius had fumbled bad decisions in Egypt as a means to appear relevant and in charge? (Assuming the dates of crusade 5 works) One does get the sense that to effects of the 4-9 crusades were the rise of the cohesion between nation states, boundaries flags and identities that in time relied less and less on romes control and influence? It would follow that national monarchs would begin balancing the wishes of their people with the request of Rome. If that is true it's pretty fascinating because I thought that type of bold thinking that would defy Rome came much later during the time of Martin Luther.
Also, would you be willing to make a mention about the miss information with which modern evangelist hold up the Albigenses and Waldenses as separatist heroes willing to buck the system when in reality the same modern denominations would have doctrine that they themselves would call the albigensis heretics?
Interesting. One more please. You are so talented and I'm writing a book on the Kathar heresy, what are we to make of the resurgence of similar ideas throughout history relative to not pure gnosticism but the ideas of a figure like Arius? I have trouble presenting him as an out right heretic his ideas were cogent and had equal scriptural support to that of the mainline church fathers. I think the vote at Nicaea reflected additional motives as it's human nature. Arius was vindicated after all.
What is it about this view even up to the present that just will not die?
I'm not sure if you reply to comments but I have gotten so much out of your teaching and would love to get your perspective on this. Naturally I will cite anything that I use if I write anything that you have taught. Thanks in advance,
English isn't my first language but you had a very interesting statement I was hoping you can help me understand.
"...miss information with which modern evangelist hold up the Albigenses and Waldenses as separatist heroes willing to buck the system when in reality the same modern denominations would have doctrine that they themselves would call the albigensis heretics?
Is evangelism a heretical sect like cathar/wald?
Why do evangelism praise them?
Is this because the modern church doctrine now shows more to cathar/warld heresies?
Also can you help me understand "modern denominations would have doctrine that they themselves would call the albigensis heretics"
Maybe in baby English :-)
Thanks Nick, awesome thoughts!
outstanding insights. Do ya'all tour for speaking engagements? Books on tape?
Gold value it is this Podcast. A subject that is always seen with "manichaean eyes", as all things around the Middle Ages. Speaking of that epoch is to, in most cases, give space for hatred against Catholic Church and nothing else. It is good to see that there are people who are engaged in showing this topic in the light of historiography. Good job, congratulations.
Thank you!
@@RealCrusadesHistory ;aa
T re
I was not aware that the Mancheniens and the Albigensians were related. I do know that thousands of Europeans were committing suicide because of the Manchenien Movement until it was finally crushed by the Roman Church.
Manichaen* not related but their ideas did have some influence on the cathar peoples.
Good discussion of a difficult topic.
thanks for listening
Hi, I've been trying to find a letter written by Pope Pius II (Enea Silvia or Aeneas Silvius) to a Muslim leader (Ottoman Sultan Mehmet II)criticizing Islam and trying to get him to convert to Christianity.
The letter is called "Epistula Ad Mahumetem" and I was wondering if you knew anything about it (did it ever survive?)
Thanks if anyone can help!
*Even survive
+Colin Thomson Haven't seen that, but if I run across it I'll let you know.
Excellent
Good stuff.
One more remark: the major reason so few noblemen were Cathars was the strict pacifism of the Cathar religion. Like early Christians, Cathars renounced violence (along with eating meat and sex). Noblemen might have been able to do without the later, but it was hard to defend your lands without violence....
Where did Early Christians renounce sex or eating meat? I don't remember that in any reading of Early Christian history.
first christian sects after jesus death were like that before church got its authority and dogma established..you can find early christian churches of that sects that believed in that in levant(syria,lebanon,holy land)
Helena P. Schrader it's because you were allowed to receive the laying of hands on your death bed. Who would renounce the pleasure of the world if it was not needed?
Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her. Best way of freeing yourself completely of the Beast system ... do not procreate
Completely counter to the Biblical mandate of "Be fruitful and multiply." Life is good; life is sacred.
I would like to know if these gentlemen are Catholics ?
They sound like.
is this a catholic radio?
missthunderstormable the youtuber is admittedly Catholic (his words)
Of course it is. It defines the Cathars as Heretics throughout the discussion. Its a fait accompli.
@@richardparrington8636 It describes the Cathars as heretics for the reason that they were. It's pretty simple isn't it?
If you don't like it there are hundreds of videos portraying the Cathars as veritable Angels. The dont mention the awkward facts concerning Cathar beliefs such as suicide and infanticide.
Great vid
+Conan5000 thanks!
Do you know who would have worn a red tunic with a white cross on the front?
knights templars
Some of them became the Cathars!
Interesting topic
+bombardus Thanks
Papal legate killed? 3:00
8:20 of the flesh
10:00 5th earl of lychetster
Yes what if it? Please expand
When I hear Cathar all I think is the Starwars species 🤣🤦♀️
Is there a Star Wars species with that name?
Will you do video about Shajar Al Durr, who female muslim leader who manage to kidnap King Of France during crusades and demand france to pay tribute to egypt ?
Very interesting topic. I had no idea this happened. Interesting how the struggle between centralized power and local control happens over and over again all around the world.
the implication is still at work today great podcast
I agree
(RCH confirmed they do not justify THIS crusade - I am glad that my doubts were proven wrong)
An upvote for being fair enough to mention the horror done on another Christian group
But did I get it wrong or are you justifying what they did on these people because they had socialist ideals? How would it have harmed Europe considering they did fought for self defense? Even if cathars considered conception as a bad thing most d
Still had children.
Furthermore what do you think communism is? How would communism hard USA if REAL communism is applied (if that can happen) instead of the Stalinist monstrosity?
We're not trying to justify anything, we're just discussing the history of what happened.
Real Crusades History I ask my excuses for misunderstanding your words.
Have a nice day and good job :)
Real Crusades History I modified my comment. Is it OK or its better if I delete it?
No need to apologize. Comment whatever you like. I'm just trying to explain what we're trying to do. Glad you like the podcast, thanks.
Socialism is bad because it denies the right to private property which is catholic doctrine
Still going on today, Cathalunia,
The Cathars would have been a species killer if they got enough people behind them since they refused to breed.
Population replacement is well underway in Europe now. If the Cathars had been successful it would have taken place much earlier. Common denominator.? The respective success and lack of influence Church then and now. Without faith Europe is lost.
Only perfecti were required to not have children . honestly I don't see anything more evil that creating life.
What's the point? You put this thing to the world who will suffer and soon die of old age? What makes you think human specie is so important? Why would it bother you after your death? Also if god is contrary to abstinence he would let us know.
He did. "Be fruitful and multiply."
Remember when the Jews poisoned the wells during the Black Plague? That was because they watched Catholics mass murder other religious minorities. Would you call that a preemptive strike in self-defense?
like feminism today
Of all the Crusades, this is my Eighth least favorite. Great podcast!
Thanks for listening
Love giving the 500th like!
A
Seriously, what is with all the Cathar apologists in the comment section? You'd think the heresy never died out.
There is no denying that the Cathars were a neo-Gnostic death cult of the time which was not above using murder to achieve it's ends, and it was they who drew first blood in the conflict. So, heresy aside, it was a lawless element in an area of France that was barely clinging to civilization, so to maintain order some measure of enforcement was needed. However, said enforcement can and has easily crossed the line, sadly.
Seriously, did you even listen to the video?
her·e·sy
/ˈherəsē/
noun
belief or opinion contrary to orthodox religious (especially Christian) doctrine.
Guess what? It hasn't died..
And with Protestant apologists whining "if the Church had listened to Jesus (as if we don't, and what they really mean is "be Protestant") attacking the Church?
@@Ninjato7
“death cult …which was not above using murder to achieve it's ends”
knowing the complete lack of self awareness that you bring to this statement gives me such confidence in the finite nature of abrahamic ideology.
Al triumf del Montsegur se va del sels !
Calvinism is not gnostic. The speaker is clearly a Catholic.
+MaineYankee Gamer look the name of the channel...what did you expect heaten
+MaineYankee Gamer Calvinism IS very gnostic. And yes, the speaker is Catholic. Thank God.
There are so many sects and cults and heresies which fell off from the Church that is impossible to know everything. Arianism,Pelagianism,Donatism,Manichaeans,Oriental Ortodoxy,Eastern Ortodoxy,Waldensians,Cathars,Luterans,Calvinists,Anglicans,Methodists,Adventists,Quakers,Pentecostals,Baptists,Anabaptists,Wesleyans,Mormons etc. This was just a few of thousands of pseudo-Christians.
sime skelin-CROAT
extremly well said good sir
It is very insulting to call Calvanist gnostic and very historically inaccurate.
dreams evil
Almost every comment the author replies to seems to be a correction comment xDDD funny take a look at his replies over most their videos xD
Lunatic Zellot ahahah true they just corrected me
Not even a word about Bulgars! I wonder how it's possible to talk at all about the Cathars, without mentioning the Bogomils? Do their believes just "fall out of Heaven"?
What you call Cathars aren't a phenomenon on their own. They are just a stage of a much broader movement. A movement hat began not in France but further East, in the kingdom of Bulgaria, our former kingdom. This is the true site where what you now call the Renaissance began more than 1000 ago with the development and spread of the true Christianity of Bogomilism, called by the corrupt churches of both East and West "heresy". The Cathars weren't any different than our Bogomils in any respect. In fact, they were direct descendants of them and if they were allowed to tell their story, they would have been happy to confirm it!
It was the Bogomils, who later transferred their knowledge and social structure not only to the Cathars, but throughout the Christian Mediterranean, who started the way of opening of the human consciousness to personal interpretations of the Bible and started undermining the totalitarian control of the church. And in that respect, they did succeed, albeit at a great cost of blood. After the Albigensian Crusade all of Europe knew what the Papacy is really about and how the Pope will crush any free-thinking spirit. Yes, it served to solidify the hubris of the faithful, but it also served to strengthen the will of the free-thinkers. Will that one day would not tolerate Papal dictatorship any more! Thus the Cathars and by extension the Bogomils actually did their job-theiy paved the way for what came next as the rebirth of the Classical European civilization and the beginning of the age where men by himself would interpret what the Holy Scripture actually said, not the be obedient to the perversions of the Church, no matter where its seat may be. This is the true contributions of the so-called heresy for all of the world to see and this is where the Cathars succeed. So, it wasn't all for nothing! They managed to unveil the true face of Rome and this image still haunts this church to this very day. What is even more important-they made a dent in the sweet lies of fairy tale of the Church as the God's emissary on Earth and through the breakpoint all of Modernity managed to flow in the West. can you imagine how the modern world would have looked, if Rome was never challenged?
You can thank the Cathars, and by extension the Bogomils for it! In the name of all that's right, they did their bidding.
Bogomils were the Paulicians, deported from Anatolia to Bulgaria for consortiing with Islam.
Well. That for one, but Cathars did some very ugly stuff. They were against life, killed themselves and killed children for that end. The Catholics have no doubt done atrocities, but Cathars did, too.
"Everything is forbidden. So, everything is allowed." This wise Albigensian saying proves that they were the true faith!
More like proves they were nuts.
Usually, a wise statement doesn't completely contradict itself.
Sounds like nothing is true everything is permitted. Where you got this sentence?
If that were true they would have survived.
Ideas matter, Christians have a creed for a reason. Manichaean ideas are alive and well today; Contraception, Homosexuality and Abortion all share a manichean spiritualism.