How to nurse a damaged Bf 109 back home - IL-2: Battle of Stalingrad
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- čas přidán 5. 09. 2024
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Hi Sheriff i have a question! During WWII the bf109 and fw190 were equip with a trim that move the entire horizontal stabiliser, on the bf109 by a handwheel and on the fw190 it was done by an electrical system. I am sure you know this in BOS/DCS WWII some players use the trim to gain more manoeuvrability in a turn fight. I have found not so much information if in reality German fighter pilot were using the trim in combat.
"Thomas L. Hayes, Jr. recalled diving after a fleeing Me-109G until both aircraft neared the sound barrier and their controls locked. Both pilots took measures to slow down, but to Hayes' astonishment, the Me-109 was the first to pull out of its dive. As he belatedly regained control of his Mustang, Hayes was grateful that the German pilot chose to quit while he was ahead and fly home instead of taking advantage of Hayes' momentary helplessness. Hayes also stated that while he saw several Fw-190s stall and even crash during dogfights, he never saw an Me-109 go out of control." (its not mention but the bf109 pilot probably used his trim to pull out of the dive)
"During dogfights between Fw 190s and RAF fighters it was not uncommon for the Luftwaffe aircraft to flick on their backs from a very tight turn and crash at full throttle. The cause of this disastrous behaviour was the pilot making excessive use of the electric tail-trimmer, an ingenious invention of Focke-Wulf, in an attempt to tighten an already very high 'g' turn, the aircraft eventually entering a high-speed stall from which there was no recovery." German Aircraft of the Second World War - J. R. Smith and Antony Kay. Putnam, London 1972
So my question is was it common to use the tail trim to gain manoeuvrability during combat on bf109/fw190 or was it just some fringe cases of pilots thinking "outside the box" and using the trim system in combat as a last ditch effort?
(Sorry for my English i am French) (i already ask Bismarck no answer yet...)
Hi, my best answer to that: this issue of using trim to gain control authority advantages dates back in sims for a long time, but there's more than one aspect in the quotes you gave. I first encountered it in the original IL2, where people would add trim to an axis to allow them to rapidly add trim as desired, faster than was possible in reality. In the most recent IL2:BoX patch, trimmers were given realistic travel times (10.4. Time of stabilizers and trimmers shift from end to end is now close to realistically possible, from patch notes) to prevent the any chance of people exploiting trim for added stick authority in an unrealistic fashion.
Your first quote (the diving 109) though has to do with loss of elevator authority at relatively high Mach numbers (and also very high stick forces to a degree). This has to do with the formation of shock waves ahead of the elevator (and high dynamic pressure for the stick force issue), and all moving stabilisers are much more effective than trailing edge trim tabs at maintaining control authority (hence the rise in use of off all-moving stabs in the dawn of the supersonic age, for eg. the later F86 Sabre changes). The 109's all moving stab allowed him control authority compared to the P51's elevator tab only.
The second quote illustrates the danger of using the trim, and the reason that in modern commercial aviation, you're taught to never 'trim for a transient', ie. never trim for a steep turn for example. Nose down elevator authority is usually not designed to be as much as nose up, and in severe cases might not be enough to counter a lot of nose up trim - resulting in a pilot being 'trapped' with a lot of nose up input that could only be gotten rid of slowly (because of trim travel time), IF he had the presence of mind to run the trim nose down at all (often, in panic due to the stall, people will just push the nose down with stick input and forget the need to get rid of the nose up trim).
In summary (IMHO) - the real skill of using trim in combat is to remember to trim for a stable firing platform, ie so you're not adding a lot of stick input when you have to fire. Often people will be trimmed for cruise, but at combat power and slower airspeeds (after a lot of turning), the trim requirement is vastly different. Getting rid of that, but not to the point of trimming for the turns is important for a good shot IMHO. IRL, and now in IL2:BoX, it's just not possible/practical to try and gain an advantage with trim - elevator authority by itself is enough to take you to the critical angle of attack anyway, why complicate it? With the exception of the very high speed pullout (where you basically have to use it), I leave it.
sheriff: having read erich hartmann's book and also watching you fly I have to believe you read the same publication. He lost his own aircraft @ least 3 times by being struck by wreckage of the soviet fighters he destroyed. Your barrel roll to set up the attack is perfect. Keep up the great vids.
I had my style before reading the book, but knew about how he attacked his targets.
I recognized relatively early the advantages of getting in close ;)
Ididn't mean to suggest that you copied anyone or anything, as your skill at this level is amazing. `I suppose what I meant to say was that it seems I am a fly on the wall watching a live dogfight against someone that very few could outfly. Even when it seems another aircraft has a definite advantage, you outfly youself right on to his six.I fly radio control giant scale planes and my very favorite is my FW190. Knock em dead Sheriff-THANKS
don't play War Thunder anymore? I don't blame you. as soon as I get a better computer I'm going to IL2....also. It looks more reslistic. Having a good time doing air cover for tank sim battles tho. Nice video.
Angry Marine
I've heard yes...but why I don't know. LOL
Good vid. This will help a lot
cool vid sheriff...other planes? If you want to that is.
what about fires in the engine or gun compartment? I put out a Fire by opening the radiators, shuting off the engine and diving with max. speed. Afterwards i was able to fly about 3 min. at 0.8 ata while the RPM fluctuated about +/-100. with in visual range of a friendly airfield, the end of the Server misson prevented me from landing.
Maybe (i Don t know) damage to the hull, prop cap or the hood increases cooling and violently fast airflow around the engine?
I never was able to put out a fire in a 109.
Happend to me 2 times on WoL. Although very rarely.
steppa from 62 here, great flying on your part man ;)
I will try it if I have the oppertunity, But i never even saw a 109 putting our a fire.
Me neither. I would love to see or hear about your experimentation/findings
edit: Both incidents occured before the latest patch, i don´t know wheather damage simulation changed or not.
I Like
The f series and on had a switch in cockpit to stop a coolant leak to one rad why is this not in game...
Question: Wouldn't opening your canopy cause a some extra drag? Is it worth doing just for damage assessment?
Fritters87 yes. but it's not only for damage assessment but for better all around visibility. seeing enemies or beeing able to see the runway
Thanks for the feedback, good to know!
BTW tried IL-2 with VR, Sheriff?
not yet
do you use trackir ? and are you german?
I'm planning war thunder this is way better upgrading my pc .
The real trick is landing when the front of your canopy is covered in black from your engine leak, you are seeing red from taking a hit, and someone just said something dumb in chat so your nerd brain desperately wants to respond
remove the canopy and lean outside of the canopy