Great video Jagger! As a Crows supporter it was pretty hard watching the club go through all those awful years. As if the death of Walsh in 2015 (and Dean Baily in 2014) wasn't emotionally damaging enough on the players. It feels like the accumulation of those things, the loss of a GF and then the camp finally tipped the club over. In the pursuit of greatness, the crows failed to do good...
I go for Richmond and it took me a real long time to accept the fact it actually happened, I'm just so used to the Tigers being a laughing stock it's so weird to see them win not just one premiership, but three.
Can’t wait for part 2. I think a lot of player exodus can be attributed to other factors, such as players wanting more security with longer contracts that weren’t given and others wanting to go home, but it is true that the past few years have been particularly rough. Having said that… Go Crom forever. ✊🏼
i'll explain the "crom" thing for those who have no idea. so the crows official twitter account tweeted some shit and accidentally said "go crom". the crows fans leapt on this in the most artificial, cringeworthy way, and tried to make it a "meme", but it's just so misguided and awful that everyone just shakes their head at it
I'm still so heartbroken over what has happened to my crows since the grand final it's been so so so frustrating seeing a team that was once so strong now where they are currently
I really like your content Jagger ; it's a good objective look at deeper AFL footy history and gives a fresh insight into things not explored by mainstream media and fox sports. Keep it up !
this is just untrue, especially about the players ''wanting'' to leave, majority of them weren't offered new contracts due to age and adelaide wanting to do a complete rebuild of the entire team after disappointing results from 2018 and 2019 keath (28 at the time) jenkins (31 at the time) betts (33 at the time) cam ellis yolmen was literally delisted by the club greenwood (28 at the time) jacobs (31 at the time) forced all of gibbs (31), talia (30) and lynch (31) into early retirement, forced out brad crouch, hartigan, atkins, ect for draft picks lever, cameron and mcgovern were the ones who left without being forced out. lever and cameron left right after the 2017 grand final
@@SgtTibbs-jj9hl second half of your comment is a cop out, doesn't really make sense, why rebuild if you have the second best team/why not include talia and drop worse players
@@leopoldstotch7711 second best team in 2017, but the group aged out and were done by the end 2019. Talia got delisted because he injured his foot and could get back to playing. He probably needed to retire, but he wasn’t ready. Potentially in denial. Disappointing way for his career to end. Also Lynch and Talia only finished end of last season so I don’t know what you’re talking about
You don't cut off of your experience immediately, didn't go well for North. Simultaneously Richmond refused to rebuild in the early 2000's and it set them back a long way.
TLDR; stuck in mediocrity for many years that didn’t let us have access to top talent in draft and the introduction of expansion teams screwed us up along with tippett saga a major issue for us throughout the 2010s was that we were stuck in mediocrity, always finished mid table and never too low and then we shot up the table in the latter years, meaning we didn’t have access to high draft picks and also the tippet saga, we’re only now picking up gems in the draft which is something we haven’t had in ages for instance from 2008 draft to 2018 draft we only had 2 top 10 picks, Phil davis (who left us for GWS) and Chayce Jones (who is a dud) so we’ve had to rely on picking from the lower tier players and hoping they turn out alright, and it’s only been the last 3 drafts where we have managed to have the chance to pick the top players in the country, it still haunts me to this day that we messed up the 2018 “super draft” two times in the first round, but jones and mchenry are still only 21, so plenty of time to grow
Fantastic video jagger. As a crom fan its been a really tough few years, ever since half time in late september. Why the crows played their worse match of the season in their most important match in almost 20 years still baffles me to this day. looking forward to part 2
@@nitrowrldd4795 its quiet common that an interstate team has a killer season, then bottles it in the gf sydney swans are another example. Purely because the grand final is played in melbourne.
@@avarma6313 nah, that's silly pal. Good teams just win when it matters. It's why they become premiers and not just grand finalists. West Coast literally won the flag the next season to Adelaide in 2018 as an interstate side playing at the MCG against a local VIC team. Richmond also won another flag playing away in QLD due to COVID. Melbourne did the same last year (albeit against another VIC side - but both teams were able to earn the right to play the game by overcoming other contenders). Best teams and players just perform when the stakes are at their highest.
I have been a Carlton supporter my Entire life but only started following the AFL fully engaged into every Game I think it was late 2019 more so from 2020. So, I had never heared anything about this but it explains why Eddie came back to the Baggers and why everyone left. Very down days for the Crows, hopefully there is a lift soon!
I think this video missed the mark quite a bit on the Crows in certain spots. Really you needed to start at 2012 to get the full picture as well, covering the Tippet saga and lost draft picks, as well as being one team heavily raided by the expansion teams, losing Bock & Davis. The camp wasn't the reason 2018 was a failure, we started that year on fire but injuries got on top, by the time 2019 rolled around - to many of our senior players were on their last legs or cooked. Charlie, Lever & McGovern left for bigger contracts, with some of them traded whilst under contract. The Tippet sanctions & continual loss of gun players like Danger and Gunston hit us here, where we should have had another 2 or 3 gun players entering their prime, we had barely anyone. Having seen the writing on the wall, we swiftly began the clubs first rebuild. Senior players were moved on, as they were holding back young talent or were pretty much cooked. I reckon that most players endured the camp and moved on and forgot about it. Players were hounded about it in interviews over and over and barely looked interested. Undoubtedly, the AFC handled it terribly. They let gutter journalists twist and makeup rumours to fit their narrative and refused to defend themselves. It was like this on most issues in the media during the 2010's. Rarely would the AFC come out and defend itself when someone said something negative about them or spreaded a rumour. Journalists would post a headline from a 'source' and sheep will believe it, AFC would be silent. The story of the AFC in the 2010's is Draft sanctions, unparalleled loss of quality players, a murdered coach, a premiership window that opened and closed into a rebuild.
Fair take, there’s a lot of contributing factors that would’ve taken me years to cover. Injuries were crushing, but the take of Graham Cornes and stuff that the camp had 0 impact is misguided. It for sure played a role in players saying yes to contracts despite Mark Riccuito towing the party line and saying it was just money. Part 2 will cover more of that though
@@jaggerskilbeck Pyke wasn't a great coach, he wouldn't play youngsters, the loss of Cameron and lever before the camp really hurt and the 6-6-6 had way more influence. Also you can't really source an article that was retracted. Was the camp shit yeah probably, was it the torture the media made it out to be definitely not, safe work SA cleard collective minds, that means nothing to bad happened bon the camp
The impact of the camp is overstated and not relevant in the departure of most of those players. Lever and Cameron had already gone. Greenwood, Ellis-Yolman and Keath were all list management decisions to focus on youth. Jacobs was cooked and had been overtaken by ROB, Jenkins was offloaded to reduce cap pressure.
Absolutely, the Tippet and expansion sagas really hurt us in the long run. The other thing people seem to skip over a lot was the rule change in 2018 to 6-6-6. You could see immediately from the start of that season that our game plan was shot. 2016-17 Crows would setup 4-6-8 with the big forwards isolated up front with far more space, with Charlie Cameron & co. streaming off the back of the square to provide more numbers in the middle for quick clearances. When 6-6-6 came in we lost that and Pyke etc. couldn’t come up with a suitable replacement plan. The other big thing is Crows got to the GF off a wave of emotion, remember how much ‘do it for Phil’ stuff there was that season. Getting there and playing for Walsh would have taken a massive emotional toll. It would have been galvanising for the group that season, but then hard to imitate that again the next season. Even harder given how bad the GF result ended up. I imagine GWS had a similar experience when they lost in 2019 - the expectation and pressure of being the new team on the block winning a maiden flag would have been massive, and given the result, seemingly similar outcome.
Agree, I still think there's an underlying cultural problem there as well though. I'm not going to forget the handling of Taylor Walker's racism any time soon. That "apology" made me feel sick in the stomach and I've supported this club since 1991. Some grade A disgusting PR shit from the AFC. Looked more like Robbie Young apologising. Ah well. Back after a few matches, give Louis CK a Grammy, keep a predator in Cabinet. Little slap on the wrist if you're white and a man.
"Adelaide were building the strongest team the club had held since their premiership run in the late 90's." I would have to disagree with this. Neil Craig's teams in the mid noughties were formidable and for a bit of luck in the finals and maybe "Matthew Pavlich" might have won 1 or 2 premierships. Good teams that fail to win premierships are quickly forgotten and this is a good example I think. Otherwise excellent content
@@averian3191 Again I'd disagree. You don't win 2 premierships in a row by accident. Malcolm Blight just had to keep tinkering with the forward line. It was otherwise an excellent team. But sure "luck" is always important: injuries, suspensions, bounces can all hurt.
@@averian3191 Lucky? Have you watched the games? Adelaide in 97 had to win four finals to win the flag, the first team ever to do so. The comeback against the Bulldogs was a classic, if you aren't a Bulldogs' supporter, and St Kilda were clearly outcoached and outplayed in a dominant second half. To then back up in '98 against one of the hottest flag favourites in AFL history took more than just luck. Remember the red hot 'Roos didn't kick a goal in the final quarter. Those teams may not have been Adelaide's best ever teams but they didn't win by luck.
I remember walking out to kick to kick at the Gabba in 2015 after the Crows defeated Brisbane, saw Phil Walsh exiting the ground... kinda surreal that that was the last time he would walk off a footy field...
Most of the Crows who departed, left because they wanted longer contracts and more money than the Crows were prepared to offer. Players like Lever, Keith, Greenwood, Ellis Yomen, Jenkins all said they wanted to stay. If the Crows had agreed to what they wanted, they would have happily stayed. Betts wanted to see out the final year of his contract but was told that he would be playing some games in the SANFL, so he looked elsewhere As for McGovern, it was well known that he suddenly wasn’t happy about his contract that he’d only signed mid year, and his manager was shopping him around before the camp even happened. The only player who seemed to genuinely want to go was Charlie Cameron, when he went to Brisbane. And who knows why that was because he kept giving a different reason for leaving. Starting with he wanted to be with family (who were actually in WA!)
@@themaster7552 yes, was there when he was a kid. When he wanted to leave Crows he said he wanted to go to Brisbane to be with family, but they are in WA. Then he gave a couple of other different reasons. Kept changing his tune as to why he wanted to go.
If Adelaide were so shaken up by the camp, then why were they 6-3 after 9 rounds in 2018? They lost 2 of those 3 games by 12 (bombers) and 5 points (port) respectively. Everything imploded after round 10, where they were soundly thrashed by Melbourne by over 90 points. The camp occurred 5 months beforehand. Also, Adelaide led the GF for nearly half the game but were being crucified by the umpires. Everyone could see it. It made the umpiring in the 2016 GF look fair and balanced by comparison. The AFC 2005-2006 sides were formidable, but unlucky to have met a doped up superhuman Ben Cousins in the prelims. Sydney were the AFC's bunny team at the time.
There is a lot of optimism and expectations around us as a club now that we've moved past the camp, exodus of players etc. I think we are still another year or 2 away from being in finals contention let alone playing finals
The worst part of that camp was when the players were woken up every morning at 3:30 am, striped naked and forced to form a human centipede . Tex was forced to be at the back every time. But it made him a better husband I suppose
This is a great video, as a Richmond supporter going into that 2017 Grand Final I thought we were maybe a chance and if we won it would be 1-2 goals. I did not expect the result we ended up winning by. I wouldn't say we were the laughing stock of the AFL, I look at teams like St Kida (1 flag, 27 wooden spoons) as a laughing stock. I think in some ways, Richmond broke Adelaide, they have never recovered from this moment.
Crows supporter here. I think although Richmond were in stellar form in that 2017 finals series, no one expected them to play such a flawless game as that 2017 grand final. I remember watching the game somewhat dispassionately and thinking at the end "that's about as good a game of footy as an AFL team could play." In a way that game probably caused people to sign off on the camp; I don't think Richmond itself broke us though. We've been horribly mismanaged on a variety of fronts (particularly recruitment and list management) since 2016 or 2017. Going through the failed draft picks, elite players we've lost, and the bonehead contract decisions (e.g., huge contracts for Sloane, Jenkins, the Crouches, Bryce Gibbs failure) over those last 5 years or so is pretty staggering
as a Crows supporter myself, watching after 2017 has been rather difficult, I often ask myself, how is it that team that was within striking distance of a premiership fall so badly? even after losing the 2017 GF, with the team they had, the premiership window was open, then it slammed shut on them so suddenly. now with whether the camp had anything to do with it, there needed to be transparency, which we as Crows supporters never got, all we had, was players leaving. that being said, I think the Crows will rise up the ladder, not this year, but in the subsequent seasons, especially as the younger lads get more game time, just as long as the board keeps Matty Nicks, just because of what he inherited, he has to play his part in rebuilding this team
While the camp was definitely a disaster, I don't think the Crows are still in disarray. Sure, we are still in rebuild, but our squad now is actually looking very capable with a strong future. The fact that we've won/loss most of our matches within a goal shows that we have heart and a passion that was absent since 2017. Call me delusional but I reckon with the team gelling together with experience and players improving on certain aspects like kicking accuracy, and potentially some pick-ups to add depth, we could be genuine Finals, and even Grand Final, contenders sooner than you'd expect.
After Eddie Betts his autobiography came out. Something jumped out at me. In 2014 when collective mines worked with Saint Kilda. Saint Kilda actually finished last in 2014, and the crows thought it was a good idea to bring in collective mind.
Greenwood, Keith, Ellis-Yolmen, Jacobs etc were all advised they were on the trade table as the club wanted to rebuild hard and hit the draft. O'Brien had overtaken Sauce and the other boys were all 27yo or more. The club got as much out of them as they could. If Matt Crouch stayed fit, then Ellis-Yolmen would have been in the SANFL anyway. Betts was offered a deal on less money and would have to play a % of SANFL games as they blooded young players and he didn't want that. his wife also wanted to return to Melbourne. I like the video production but some of the opinions sound like they're taken from one side of the argument without doing the due diligence on the other
You are absolutely right with all you said. It makes me angry when people talk about the “mass exodus”. Most of the players who departed left because Crows didn’t agree to their unreasonable contract demands, and Crows opted to let them go. And this is definitely a one-sided view point. What about the players who came out and said they either liked the camp or had no problem with it.
Damn! An EXCELLENT discussion and one that will sadly continue for the Crows until they publicly admit that fiasco…. What is it now, 4 years - and still waiting!
I do feel a bit sorry for the crows in 2017. We (Richmond) got to play all 3 of our finals at the G even though we finished 3rd. We probably would have got spanked had we played at Kardiya or Adelaide oval.
Crikey, you must be the one and only Richmond supporter to see the injustice and the inequality in that. Unfair that Richmond got to play GF on their home ground. Crows only get to play on the MCG once or twice a season.
@@shaz464 I remember some Tigers supporters (and at least one high profile figure in Kevin Bartlett) running their mouths off about being forced to wear the white shorts and clash guernsey, despite finishing the season lower than the Crows. Very arrogant. I'm a firm believer in the GF being played on the higher ranked team's home ground or any ground of their choice. The favouritism towards Melbourne-based clubs in this regard needs to end. And I say that as a Bulldogs supporter. Unfortunately, the Crows with their aggressive anthem stance made them rather hard to like aswell.
I'm not sure if you're just trying to make a good story or you're actually naive regarding this 'player exodus', it seriously had nothing to with the camp. Lever/Cameron left before the camp, Greenwood/Ellis-Yoleman/Keath were all 28yo with less than 50 games and got far longer contracts at other clubs, Jacobs was let go as he was replaced by ROB, and the Jenkins was essentially forced out. The only real departures because of the camp were Mcgovern and Betts, not hard to do some research
Didn't suggest any of them except McGovern and Betts left because of the camp. Simply discussed the camp, then discussed the players exits in the following years and made a vague causal assessment that can be interpreted however you want. I didn't once state they left because of it i just suggested that it led to a culture shift that a lot of players weren't happy with, a fact plenty of them had attested to. Did so much research, I literally love the Crows
What about reporting about the players who said they actually liked the Camp, including captain Taylor Walker. Rory Sloane said he came home a better son, husband and team mate He was actually called a liar by Chris Judd and Caroline Wilson on National tv. Rory soon put them in their place Bryce Gibbs said he’d been on worse camps at Carlton There were rumours that something disgusting happened to Sam Jacobs where he should have walked out of the club. Sam denied it. In fact, he’s still at the club in an off field role.
@@kennethperry82 The players that were asked all said they had no problem with the camp. AFL players association said they had no complaints from any of the players. The SA govt (SA safe workplace) investigated and found nothing wrong. The AFL investigated and found nothing wrong. There were other investigations also that found nothing. All the ridiculous rumours were unsubstantiated and Victorian journalists and newspapers had to retract articles and statements after Collective Minds threatened to sue. Shall I go on?
This sounds like military style training, kind of like the movie "Full Metal Jacket", the idea being the you tear people down and build them back up again from scratch. Of course the issue is that this is football, and no one is needing to prepare to die. In addition many people who do undergo military training are changed in a negative way from it.
Every team has to go into a rebuild but if the team doesn’t win a premiership with your previous list, the rebuild hurts a little bit more, and I can’t explain why.
As a Crows fan, I think the issues run deeper than the collective minds camp, although it is clearly a very big factor in our downfall. Another comment mentions this, but the culture of the club was one of a stepping stone club for many years through the 2010’s with players like Tippet, Davis, Dangerfield, etc all moving on. We’ve really struggled to keep hold of our talent. Lever, Cameron and McGovern are prime examples of seriously good players having a decent season or two and then going interstate. I don’t think it’s ever been a destination club. I honestly think Phil Walsh was turning it into that and it’s truly sad that we’ll never get to see the fruits of what he was doing. And although we lost the 2017 GF, I will always thank Don Pyke for giving us 2 pretty amazing years there. He got to a grand final which Neil Craig never did in the many years he was coach.
They went into 2017 way to cocky and arrogant ,their stare down typified t their arrogance ,walker was flying home with the cup in the seat next to him according to the cocky crows .They haven't recovered .Go Tiges
All clubs go through the good times and the bad one's playing the game is the what counts like you played as a child just starting your career the excitement and you played for your team mates and no so much for the money more your jumper and your club
From my perspective, the Crows fall was mostly attributed to an ageing list and the lack if injection of youth as they spent all their tickets to win a flag. Even if they did win the flag in 2017, the resultant fall would likely have occured. The player exodus though did not help their cause and subsequently they earnt their first wooden spoon.
Exactly, 2019 was proof of this that they literally turned their list over. I guess it doesn't stop people from making videos packed with lies however.
Great video Jagger!
As a Crows supporter it was pretty hard watching the club go through all those awful years. As if the death of Walsh in 2015 (and Dean Baily in 2014) wasn't emotionally damaging enough on the players. It feels like the accumulation of those things, the loss of a GF and then the camp finally tipped the club over.
In the pursuit of greatness, the crows failed to do good...
I tipped the crows in 2017 to win the premiership, and I look like a genius, until Richmond happen.
I go for Richmond and it took me a real long time to accept the fact it actually happened, I'm just so used to the Tigers being a laughing stock it's so weird to see them win not just one premiership, but three.
@@ReaperspearX I understand I go for Brisbane, and by god going for Brisbane is like being on a rollercoaster.
@@outlawrip-offartist4161 I’m a bulldog supporter, we’re good for a couple of years and shit for the next 5-6
@@outlawrip-offartist4161 I’m an Essendon fan. Enough said.
@@bunglegamingmusic1784I’m a Carlton fan born in the 2000s
Enough said immediately.
Can’t wait for part 2. I think a lot of player exodus can be attributed to other factors, such as players wanting more security with longer contracts that weren’t given and others wanting to go home, but it is true that the past few years have been particularly rough. Having said that… Go Crom forever. ✊🏼
You're delusional
Go Crom
You mean the crows?
@@levand3673 Go Crom.
i'll explain the "crom" thing for those who have no idea. so the crows official twitter account tweeted some shit and accidentally said "go crom". the crows fans leapt on this in the most artificial, cringeworthy way, and tried to make it a "meme", but it's just so misguided and awful that everyone just shakes their head at it
I'm still so heartbroken over what has happened to my crows since the grand final it's been so so so frustrating seeing a team that was once so strong now where they are currently
I really like your content Jagger ; it's a good objective look at deeper AFL footy history and gives a fresh insight into things not explored by mainstream media and fox sports. Keep it up !
this is just untrue, especially about the players ''wanting'' to leave, majority of them weren't offered new contracts due to age and adelaide wanting to do a complete rebuild of the entire team after disappointing results from 2018 and 2019
keath (28 at the time)
jenkins (31 at the time)
betts (33 at the time)
cam ellis yolmen was literally delisted by the club
greenwood (28 at the time)
jacobs (31 at the time)
forced all of gibbs (31), talia (30) and lynch (31) into early retirement, forced out brad crouch, hartigan, atkins, ect for draft picks
lever, cameron and mcgovern were the ones who left without being forced out. lever and cameron left right after the 2017 grand final
Talia’s foot is cooked, why do you think no other club picked him up. Lynch is 32 and the club is in a rebuild
@@SgtTibbs-jj9hl second half of your comment is a cop out, doesn't really make sense, why rebuild if you have the second best team/why not include talia and drop worse players
@@leopoldstotch7711 second best team in 2017, but the group aged out and were done by the end 2019. Talia got delisted because he injured his foot and could get back to playing. He probably needed to retire, but he wasn’t ready. Potentially in denial. Disappointing way for his career to end.
Also Lynch and Talia only finished end of last season so I don’t know what you’re talking about
Exactly, this video is packed so full of lies. The same lies the media tried to tell, and ended up losing a court case over.
You don't cut off of your experience immediately, didn't go well for North. Simultaneously Richmond refused to rebuild in the early 2000's and it set them back a long way.
no matter how much i hear about this camp i still think its been used as a scapegoat, i guess we'll never know unless we were there. nice video
TLDR; stuck in mediocrity for many years that didn’t let us have access to top talent in draft and the introduction of expansion teams screwed us up along with tippett saga
a major issue for us throughout the 2010s was that we were stuck in mediocrity, always finished mid table and never too low and then we shot up the table in the latter years, meaning we didn’t have access to high draft picks and also the tippet saga, we’re only now picking up gems in the draft which is something we haven’t had in ages
for instance from 2008 draft to 2018 draft we only had 2 top 10 picks, Phil davis (who left us for GWS) and Chayce Jones (who is a dud) so we’ve had to rely on picking from the lower tier players and hoping they turn out alright, and it’s only been the last 3 drafts where we have managed to have the chance to pick the top players in the country, it still haunts me to this day that we messed up the 2018 “super draft” two times in the first round, but jones and mchenry are still only 21, so plenty of time to grow
Stellar work as usual mate. I'm amazed this channel hasn't aught on with more folks yet.
My favourite Adelaide crows team was Neil Craig’s Crows they might not be a powerhouse but was a strong steam
05/06 were just as good if not better than 17
Great team of the bird dynasty@@JohnSmith-gc3kj
Fantastic video jagger. As a crom fan its been a really tough few years, ever since half time in late september. Why the crows played their worse match of the season in their most important match in almost 20 years still baffles me to this day. looking forward to part 2
This is the most solid piece of reportage on this story. Fucking excellent work, man.
i was one of the few people i knew supporting the crows in 2017 GF, sad when they didn’t win
i feel like the only reason they lost was that the grand final was in melbourne
@@avarma6313 what ? you dont lose by 8 goals simply because of the oval youre playing on
@@nitrowrldd4795 its quiet common that an interstate team has a killer season, then bottles it in the gf sydney swans are another example.
Purely because the grand final is played in melbourne.
@@avarma6313 nah, that's silly pal. Good teams just win when it matters. It's why they become premiers and not just grand finalists. West Coast literally won the flag the next season to Adelaide in 2018 as an interstate side playing at the MCG against a local VIC team. Richmond also won another flag playing away in QLD due to COVID. Melbourne did the same last year (albeit against another VIC side - but both teams were able to earn the right to play the game by overcoming other contenders). Best teams and players just perform when the stakes are at their highest.
@@avarma6313 Where were the 97 & 98 grand finals played?
This is going to be put into a tailspin again with Eddie's book coming out.
I have been a Carlton supporter my Entire life but only started following the AFL fully engaged into every Game I think it was late 2019 more so from 2020. So, I had never heared anything about this but it explains why Eddie came back to the Baggers and why everyone left. Very down days for the Crows, hopefully there is a lift soon!
a lot of misinformation in this video mate
I think this video missed the mark quite a bit on the Crows in certain spots. Really you needed to start at 2012 to get the full picture as well, covering the Tippet saga and lost draft picks, as well as being one team heavily raided by the expansion teams, losing Bock & Davis. The camp wasn't the reason 2018 was a failure, we started that year on fire but injuries got on top, by the time 2019 rolled around - to many of our senior players were on their last legs or cooked. Charlie, Lever & McGovern left for bigger contracts, with some of them traded whilst under contract. The Tippet sanctions & continual loss of gun players like Danger and Gunston hit us here, where we should have had another 2 or 3 gun players entering their prime, we had barely anyone. Having seen the writing on the wall, we swiftly began the clubs first rebuild. Senior players were moved on, as they were holding back young talent or were pretty much cooked.
I reckon that most players endured the camp and moved on and forgot about it. Players were hounded about it in interviews over and over and barely looked interested. Undoubtedly, the AFC handled it terribly. They let gutter journalists twist and makeup rumours to fit their narrative and refused to defend themselves. It was like this on most issues in the media during the 2010's. Rarely would the AFC come out and defend itself when someone said something negative about them or spreaded a rumour. Journalists would post a headline from a 'source' and sheep will believe it, AFC would be silent.
The story of the AFC in the 2010's is Draft sanctions, unparalleled loss of quality players, a murdered coach, a premiership window that opened and closed into a rebuild.
Fair take, there’s a lot of contributing factors that would’ve taken me years to cover. Injuries were crushing, but the take of Graham Cornes and stuff that the camp had 0 impact is misguided. It for sure played a role in players saying yes to contracts despite Mark Riccuito towing the party line and saying it was just money. Part 2 will cover more of that though
@@jaggerskilbeck Pyke wasn't a great coach, he wouldn't play youngsters, the loss of Cameron and lever before the camp really hurt and the 6-6-6 had way more influence. Also you can't really source an article that was retracted. Was the camp shit yeah probably, was it the torture the media made it out to be definitely not, safe work SA cleard collective minds, that means nothing to bad happened bon the camp
The impact of the camp is overstated and not relevant in the departure of most of those players.
Lever and Cameron had already gone.
Greenwood, Ellis-Yolman and Keath were all list management decisions to focus on youth. Jacobs was cooked and had been overtaken by ROB, Jenkins was offloaded to reduce cap pressure.
Absolutely, the Tippet and expansion sagas really hurt us in the long run.
The other thing people seem to skip over a lot was the rule change in 2018 to 6-6-6. You could see immediately from the start of that season that our game plan was shot. 2016-17 Crows would setup 4-6-8 with the big forwards isolated up front with far more space, with Charlie Cameron & co. streaming off the back of the square to provide more numbers in the middle for quick clearances. When 6-6-6 came in we lost that and Pyke etc. couldn’t come up with a suitable replacement plan.
The other big thing is Crows got to the GF off a wave of emotion, remember how much ‘do it for Phil’ stuff there was that season. Getting there and playing for Walsh would have taken a massive emotional toll. It would have been galvanising for the group that season, but then hard to imitate that again the next season. Even harder given how bad the GF result ended up.
I imagine GWS had a similar experience when they lost in 2019 - the expectation and pressure of being the new team on the block winning a maiden flag would have been massive, and given the result, seemingly similar outcome.
Agree, I still think there's an underlying cultural problem there as well though. I'm not going to forget the handling of Taylor Walker's racism any time soon. That "apology" made me feel sick in the stomach and I've supported this club since 1991. Some grade A disgusting PR shit from the AFC. Looked more like Robbie Young apologising. Ah well. Back after a few matches, give Louis CK a Grammy, keep a predator in Cabinet. Little slap on the wrist if you're white and a man.
"Adelaide were building the strongest team the club had held since their premiership run in the late 90's."
I would have to disagree with this. Neil Craig's teams in the mid noughties were formidable and for a bit of luck in the finals and maybe "Matthew Pavlich" might have won 1 or 2 premierships.
Good teams that fail to win premierships are quickly forgotten and this is a good example I think.
Otherwise excellent content
Honestly, even our 90's team wasn't the best. We were very lucky to win those premierships.
Fair cop, almost worth a video in itself
@@averian3191 Again I'd disagree.
You don't win 2 premierships in a row by accident.
Malcolm Blight just had to keep tinkering with the forward line. It was otherwise an excellent team.
But sure "luck" is always important: injuries, suspensions, bounces can all hurt.
@@dyslexicmyasre688 well, Adelaide don't win the 1998 Grand Final if North Melbourne kicked 10.2 instead of 2.10 in that 2nd quarter
@@averian3191 Lucky? Have you watched the games? Adelaide in 97 had to win four finals to win the flag, the first team ever to do so. The comeback against the Bulldogs was a classic, if you aren't a Bulldogs' supporter, and St Kilda were clearly outcoached and outplayed in a dominant second half. To then back up in '98 against one of the hottest flag favourites in AFL history took more than just luck. Remember the red hot 'Roos didn't kick a goal in the final quarter. Those teams may not have been Adelaide's best ever teams but they didn't win by luck.
I remember walking out to kick to kick at the Gabba in 2015 after the Crows defeated Brisbane, saw Phil Walsh exiting the ground... kinda surreal that that was the last time he would walk off a footy field...
Please keep making these videos, they are so amazing.
I only ever heard the tip of the iceberg of what happened (the Richmond song). This is nuts 😐. Thanks for the upload. Real eye opener
You are a blessing to the AFL community
A blessing wouldn't be someone that posts lies and misleading videos. That is actually against CZcamss terms of service.
@Confessions Of A Movie Freak what?
Incredible Jagger, wish you made more of these
Most of the Crows who departed, left because they wanted longer contracts and more money than the Crows were prepared to offer.
Players like Lever, Keith, Greenwood, Ellis Yomen, Jenkins all said they wanted to stay. If the Crows had agreed to what they wanted, they would have happily stayed.
Betts wanted to see out the final year of his contract but was told that he would be playing some games in the SANFL, so he looked elsewhere
As for McGovern, it was well known that he suddenly wasn’t happy about his contract that he’d only signed mid year, and his manager was shopping him around before the camp even happened.
The only player who seemed to genuinely want to go was Charlie Cameron, when he went to Brisbane. And who knows why that was because he kept giving a different reason for leaving. Starting with he wanted to be with family (who were actually in WA!)
lever and cameron left, the rest were forced out due to age and adelaide wanting a complete rebuild
@@helvijssaukants3479 Lever left for 850k a year, we were never going to offer that
@@helvijssaukants3479 it's funny how Lever and Cameron's departure's are attributed to a camp they didn't attend
cameron was originally from brisbane
@@themaster7552 yes, was there when he was a kid. When he wanted to leave Crows he said he wanted to go to Brisbane to be with family, but they are in WA. Then he gave a couple of other different reasons. Kept changing his tune as to why he wanted to go.
If Adelaide were so shaken up by the camp, then why were they 6-3 after 9 rounds in 2018? They lost 2 of those 3 games by 12 (bombers) and 5 points (port) respectively.
Everything imploded after round 10, where they were soundly thrashed by Melbourne by over 90 points. The camp occurred 5 months beforehand.
Also, Adelaide led the GF for nearly half the game but were being crucified by the umpires. Everyone could see it. It made the umpiring in the 2016 GF look fair and balanced by comparison.
The AFC 2005-2006 sides were formidable, but unlucky to have met a doped up superhuman Ben Cousins in the prelims. Sydney were the AFC's bunny team at the time.
These videos about the footy are rare, and to come across yours is a treat
There is a lot of optimism and expectations around us as a club now that we've moved past the camp, exodus of players etc. I think we are still another year or 2 away from being in finals contention let alone playing finals
Awesome video can't wait for part 2. Yeah that really is such a massive exodus.
The worst part of that camp was when the players were woken up every morning at 3:30 am, striped naked and forced to form a human centipede . Tex was forced to be at the back every time. But it made him a better husband I suppose
This is a great video, as a Richmond supporter going into that 2017 Grand Final I thought we were maybe a chance and if we won it would be 1-2 goals. I did not expect the result we ended up winning by. I wouldn't say we were the laughing stock of the AFL, I look at teams like St Kida (1 flag, 27 wooden spoons) as a laughing stock.
I think in some ways, Richmond broke Adelaide, they have never recovered from this moment.
Crows supporter here. I think although Richmond were in stellar form in that 2017 finals series, no one expected them to play such a flawless game as that 2017 grand final. I remember watching the game somewhat dispassionately and thinking at the end "that's about as good a game of footy as an AFL team could play." In a way that game probably caused people to sign off on the camp; I don't think Richmond itself broke us though. We've been horribly mismanaged on a variety of fronts (particularly recruitment and list management) since 2016 or 2017. Going through the failed draft picks, elite players we've lost, and the bonehead contract decisions (e.g., huge contracts for Sloane, Jenkins, the Crouches, Bryce Gibbs failure) over those last 5 years or so is pretty staggering
We’ve recovered this season we should make the 8 if we stay playing like the last 2 rounds
@@lochie777 this comment aged well lol
So happy you've uploaded again
I love this content - please keep it up with more AFL stories
Hi
Idea: How the Brisbane Lions went from 15th to 2nd on the ladder in just one year
putting in effort and training hard is your answer
I believe Luke Hodge had an extremely heavy influence on the rise of the bears. In addition to Fages etc
With 7 years of hard work prior.
@@cootey638 lol the bears. It's not 1992 anymore
@@bibsp3556 righto champ
I’ve waited so long for this and it didn’t disappoint, what a vid
Sensational job as always, Jagger! Keep these coming!
Love that one of my fav CZcamsrs is back with a fire upload on my bday!
Love all these videos
So informing and entertaining
as a Crows supporter myself, watching after 2017 has been rather difficult, I often ask myself, how is it that team that was within striking distance of a premiership fall so badly? even after losing the 2017 GF, with the team they had, the premiership window was open, then it slammed shut on them so suddenly.
now with whether the camp had anything to do with it, there needed to be transparency, which we as Crows supporters never got, all we had, was players leaving.
that being said, I think the Crows will rise up the ladder, not this year, but in the subsequent seasons, especially as the younger lads get more game time, just as long as the board keeps Matty Nicks, just because of what he inherited, he has to play his part in rebuilding this team
awesome edits in this one, mate. the flow of the video was really well done. thanks!
While the camp was definitely a disaster, I don't think the Crows are still in disarray. Sure, we are still in rebuild, but our squad now is actually looking very capable with a strong future. The fact that we've won/loss most of our matches within a goal shows that we have heart and a passion that was absent since 2017. Call me delusional but I reckon with the team gelling together with experience and players improving on certain aspects like kicking accuracy, and potentially some pick-ups to add depth, we could be genuine Finals, and even Grand Final, contenders sooner than you'd expect.
That was one of the happiest days of my life lmao. Was so worth all those shitty years
Jagger has returned. Loved this one, hopefully the saga will be officially concluded soon enough.
Love your music
Thought we already had part 2 but I'll watch again
Great to see u back keep up the good work
After Eddie Betts his autobiography came out. Something jumped out at me. In 2014 when collective mines worked with Saint Kilda. Saint Kilda actually finished last in 2014, and the crows thought it was a good idea to bring in collective mind.
I wish you uploaded more these are so good oh my god.
Greenwood, Keith, Ellis-Yolmen, Jacobs etc were all advised they were on the trade table as the club wanted to rebuild hard and hit the draft. O'Brien had overtaken Sauce and the other boys were all 27yo or more. The club got as much out of them as they could. If Matt Crouch stayed fit, then Ellis-Yolmen would have been in the SANFL anyway. Betts was offered a deal on less money and would have to play a % of SANFL games as they blooded young players and he didn't want that. his wife also wanted to return to Melbourne.
I like the video production but some of the opinions sound like they're taken from one side of the argument without doing the due diligence on the other
You are absolutely right with all you said. It makes me angry when people talk about the “mass exodus”. Most of the players who departed left because Crows didn’t agree to their unreasonable contract demands, and Crows opted to let them go.
And this is definitely a one-sided view point. What about the players who came out and said they either liked the camp or had no problem with it.
yeah he should've acted like a complete crom nuf and made stuff up
Hang around for part 2
@@jaggerskilbeck no thanks.
It was a dumb move putting Keith on the trade table. Only got peanuts for a top KPD that would be helping the team at the moment.
I don't even watch the AFL but these videos are incredible
Haha. U just broke all the Gold Coast suns hearts
Gun wood requested a join to the suns OF ALL PLACES
I still can’t believe Charlie Cameron asked for a trade to Brisbane.
Ended up working out for him though
Well he grew up in Brisbane so...
"and it will take the crows years to recover.."
*enter Josh Rachele*
Wow this hasn't aged well lol 😅
Josh is behaving like a flog
I love your videos! Please keep doing CZcams. Your Chanel is gold for footy fans.
Damn! An EXCELLENT discussion and one that will sadly continue for the Crows until they publicly admit that fiasco…. What is it now, 4 years - and still waiting!
we need more videos!! you're like the jimmy highroller of AFL and i fucking love it
Love the videos Jagger!
So happy to see you back
I do feel a bit sorry for the crows in 2017. We (Richmond) got to play all 3 of our finals at the G even though we finished 3rd. We probably would have got spanked had we played at Kardiya or Adelaide oval.
Crikey, you must be the one and only Richmond supporter to see the injustice and the inequality in that. Unfair that Richmond got to play GF on their home ground. Crows only get to play on the MCG once or twice a season.
@@shaz464
I remember some Tigers supporters (and at least one high profile figure in Kevin Bartlett) running their mouths off about being forced to wear the white shorts and clash guernsey, despite finishing the season lower than the Crows. Very arrogant. I'm a firm believer in the GF being played on the higher ranked team's home ground or any ground of their choice. The favouritism towards Melbourne-based clubs in this regard needs to end. And I say that as a Bulldogs supporter. Unfortunately, the Crows with their aggressive anthem stance made them rather hard to like aswell.
Richmond did win a preliminary final against Port at Adelaide Oval in 2020 and broke Geelong the following week.
@@pcorf Talking 2017. Not complaining, just saying it is hard to know if we would have won that year had the comp been on level pegging.
We are probably closer to our next Prelim than to our last Grand Final. #PrelimBy2027
I have been waiting for this video for a very long time
Idk if we have, but i think we have recovered
I'm not sure if you're just trying to make a good story or you're actually naive regarding this 'player exodus', it seriously had nothing to with the camp. Lever/Cameron left before the camp, Greenwood/Ellis-Yoleman/Keath were all 28yo with less than 50 games and got far longer contracts at other clubs, Jacobs was let go as he was replaced by ROB, and the Jenkins was essentially forced out. The only real departures because of the camp were Mcgovern and Betts, not hard to do some research
Didn't suggest any of them except McGovern and Betts left because of the camp. Simply discussed the camp, then discussed the players exits in the following years and made a vague causal assessment that can be interpreted however you want. I didn't once state they left because of it i just suggested that it led to a culture shift that a lot of players weren't happy with, a fact plenty of them had attested to. Did so much research, I literally love the Crows
I rate the Crows 2005-06 teams better than the 2017 side. We just couldn't get over West Coast in those prelims
Fair video BUT, will you be doing a part III in two years from now?
It’s scary how quickly a team can be nearly premiership to wooden spooners within 3 years
Would love a follow up in a couple weeks with all the new interviews and fallout to come
Please make an analysis on norths collapse
The North side yes
But not Port, it is only round 4
Fair
I think they have emerged now but yeah took from that day until this year. To even be competitive in a finals race sort of situation
What about reporting about the players who said they actually liked the Camp, including captain Taylor Walker.
Rory Sloane said he came home a better son, husband and team mate
He was actually called a liar by Chris Judd and Caroline Wilson on National tv. Rory soon put them in their place
Bryce Gibbs said he’d been on worse camps at Carlton
There were rumours that something disgusting happened to Sam Jacobs where he should have walked out of the club. Sam denied it. In fact, he’s still at the club in an off field role.
So 3 out of the playing list 😂😂😂😂
@@kennethperry82 The players that were asked all said they had no problem with the camp. AFL players association said they had no complaints from any of the players. The SA govt (SA safe workplace) investigated and found nothing wrong. The AFL investigated and found nothing wrong. There were other investigations also that found nothing. All the ridiculous rumours were unsubstantiated and Victorian journalists and newspapers had to retract articles and statements after Collective Minds threatened to sue. Shall I go on?
Can't wait for the part 2 in a few years...
YOUR BACK!!!
Awesome mate. Your sport videos are the best ❤️❤️
Great watch mate. Editing went up a notch in this one!
Collab is on
@@jaggerskilbeck 👀👀
Yes collab
Great video as always! Love your work mate👍🏼
I miss their high scoring footy, it was so fun to watch
great video man
Me: “not having anything to watch on CZcams” *jager posts😍*
This sounds like military style training, kind of like the movie "Full Metal Jacket", the idea being the you tear people down and build them back up again from scratch.
Of course the issue is that this is football, and no one is needing to prepare to die. In addition many people who do undergo military training are changed in a negative way from it.
Love this video about my team, can you also do one for their 97,98 back to back premiership as well 😊 pleasssse
Best content 💯
Shit content
honestly such a great video
Every team has to go into a rebuild but if the team doesn’t win a premiership with your previous list, the rebuild hurts a little bit more, and I can’t explain why.
Can't wait to see part 2, will you be covering Tex Walkers racism as well?
My favourite part of this debacle was Tex Walker declaring Jake Lever was chasing cash rather than team success 😄
As a Crows fan, I think the issues run deeper than the collective minds camp, although it is clearly a very big factor in our downfall. Another comment mentions this, but the culture of the club was one of a stepping stone club for many years through the 2010’s with players like Tippet, Davis, Dangerfield, etc all moving on. We’ve really struggled to keep hold of our talent. Lever, Cameron and McGovern are prime examples of seriously good players having a decent season or two and then going interstate. I don’t think it’s ever been a destination club. I honestly think Phil Walsh was turning it into that and it’s truly sad that we’ll never get to see the fruits of what he was doing. And although we lost the 2017 GF, I will always thank Don Pyke for giving us 2 pretty amazing years there. He got to a grand final which Neil Craig never did in the many years he was coach.
I don’t like pyke still and I was happy when Nicksy came
Brilliant video mate!
What background music do you use for your vids?
It’s been so hard to see us fall so far from 2017, and now I’m so desperate for finals and we can’t get up
Thanks for this ! Great content
A good summary of what has happened to the AFC. They will be back on top again. Go crows
love these very well made
Who’s here after Adelaide is having a great year in 2023
Great video and very well written, subbed and liked.
Love your vids man!
They went into 2017 way to cocky and arrogant ,their stare down typified t their arrogance ,walker was flying home with the cup in the seat next to him according to the cocky crows .They haven't recovered .Go Tiges
Great video as always man
Another awesome video 👏🏼
All clubs go through the good times and the bad one's playing the game is the what counts like you played as a child just starting your career the excitement and you played for your team mates and no so much for the money more your jumper and your club
From my perspective, the Crows fall was mostly attributed to an ageing list and the lack if injection of youth as they spent all their tickets to win a flag. Even if they did win the flag in 2017, the resultant fall would likely have occured. The player exodus though did not help their cause and subsequently they earnt their first wooden spoon.
Win it in 2017 and they would have given it another shot in 2018 for sure.
Exactly, 2019 was proof of this that they literally turned their list over.
I guess it doesn't stop people from making videos packed with lies however.
Absolutely. 🇦🇺👍🍺🍺
i reccon you should do a video on the 2013 Brisbane Lions, an absolute rollercoaster season
Keep up the great content 🔥🔥
Jagger’s back, tell a friend