Why Puma IFV Failed its Combat Test
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- čas přidán 13. 09. 2021
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The German Army's Puma is known as the best Infantry Fighting Vehicle in the world while at the same time being plagued with development problems. Its an armored personnel carrier armed with a 30mm autocannon unmanned turret.
The troop transport is a relic from the Cold War era and the war in Afghanistan. The German Military is working hard to get it ready by 2029 and hopes to export it to as many NATO countries as possible. It failed its combat test in 2020 so what's really gone on here? Can it be fixed? Find out in this video.
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Do you think the Puma IFV will become extinct or will it become the primary infantry battlefield transportation?
can you make a video about the new ifv for the usa like what would they rather choose kf 41 lynx or the redback
Off topic, but speaking of Germany. Curious has anyone heard about the wounded soldiers from the bombing that were sent to Germany? I heard through the grapevine that another solider passed away, but they are trying to keep it out of the press. Seems weird there hasn't been a status update on the soldiers. I don't really have many active duty friends anymore so hard to find out good intel. Plus the Blinken seem to avoid the question during the hearing.
@@filli2429 yes definitely looking forward to covering the Lynx ! thats next on the list
Nice shirt bro
@@jaytrock3217 bump
"Millions of dollars over budget" is the motto of every military project ever.
Its all the crack smoked by the top brass when writing the list of prerequisites for the manufacturers 😂
Meanwhile, somewhere in USSR in 1941:
"The front needs X."
"When?"
"Yesterday."
seriously was there ever a project that was cheaper than expected?
@@No5f3r4tu atomic bomb. It turned out to be much simpler then at first anticipated ie borderline impossible.
The programs that are on time and under budget are not news worthy and the Pentagon does not like them
"Only soldiers of a specific height may enter this vehicle"
Thus microlads became microkings
People get it's role completely wrong! It's more of a tank support than a Troup transport. It can survive tank hits, battle enemy soldiers and armored vehicles extremely effectively to support tanks. The boxer APC will fill in the personnel carrier role.
considering that the average height of a soldier in Boots is about 6foot and the averag height of a central european male is around 175cm, this is totally fine.
in the end its about top clearance.
even if you are seated in a hammok seat, when your vehicle gets a whack from below (by mine or ied) you will get pushed upwards. if you are too tall, you will hit the ceiling get a bruise, in worst case you could break your neck.
@@zhufortheimpaler4041 the average german is quite tall. Go to any city there, almost 90 % of men are taller than that
@@magnagermania9311 well, i live in a german city.
the average size of a german Male is 180cm, thats 3-5cm taller than the average in poland and france, but also only the average.
the Puma allows 184cm. thats good enough.
there was a statistical evaluation of the serving mech infantry personnel, wich concluded that 85% of serving Panzergrenadiere could serve without restrictions, the remaining 13% could serve in crew positions (driver, commander, gunner) only 2% were too tall.
so there is no problem, the discussion is artificial.
@@zhufortheimpaler4041 im german too, I ment over 175 cm by the way. I'm also not criticising the puma, it's the best in the world.
The Puma S1 was actually declared "combat ready" after some modifications in 2021.
One neat feature of the Puma IFV is its simulator. The Puma itself is the simulator. There is a simulator plug-in device and several Pumas can play together with an additional container sized workplace for trainer and computer.
I think with the size limitations the US army needs to redesign the vehicle a bit and call it the Cougar. That way the whole squad can ride the Cougar.
Clever bastard
You win the internet today!
Like tossing a hotdog down a hallway...
Rheinmetall previously offered the Lynx KF41 which is basically an evolution of Puma and it substantially larger (It can accommodate 3 crew + 8 dismounts).
I see what you did there.
And I approve.
It fits a squad. The crew and the soldiers in the back are the squad (Panzergrenadiergruppe). They function as unit. A german IFV is not just a battle taxi.
This. Nick got it right. Our Stryker equivalent is the Boxer.
The same goes for the Bradley, Warrior, BMP..... every IFV in fact so nothing uniquely German or special there
@@armyreservist0 The Bradley is an aluminum tank. I wouldn’t send it in any situation, where it’s actually being shot at.
Still it’s just doesn’t feel right to call a track vehicle PUMA
12,7 can shoot true aluminum tank.ammo black
It's not only the German weapon industry with this problems. I was a Marder Infantry commander (1983-1986) and in one 3 week training, Americans showed up with the brand new Bradley Infantry tank. Same electronic problems. They did fire one shot for 4 days. IT guys and electronics guys jumped in and out. It was a disaster for them. On the 5 day, if I remember that right, they finally got some shots away but not like us. The whole 3 weeks they had the "special guys" in the back sitting to jump in with laptops and after hours coming out calling it a day. My 2 cent.
yeah, that was in 1986 though. pretty sure some 8th graders could write better software now lol...... or AI chatbots. that's a scary thought.
1986 is ancient history in technical terms.
”I fear not the man who has designed 10,000 different tanks, but I fear the man who has designed and iterated one tank 10,000 times.” - Sun Tzu when commenting on Modern Warfare with Rommel and Patton while sipping on his Matcha Tea Latte
So basically, it’s the perfect IFV and the only downside is the delayed development and increased cost. Things that always happen with weapons development
Indeed.
Name a weapons development project that was finished in time and did not overflow the budget.
There is no such thing.
well and the "no solideres over 6f" thing but that can be fixed
@@tomendruweit9386 it can be but nobody wants to do this since it is not necessary since the wast majority of all soldiers and also the population is able to fit inside it.
@@emilsinclair4190 well the german average is 5,9 feet so not a small part of solideres and the population are above 6f
@@tomendruweit9386 only 2% of the panzergrenardiere were unable to serve in the puma in 2018. 12% were only able to be crewmembers. Around 80% of the general population should be able to fit inside this vehicle.
Every vehicle with a roof has a higher limit. Sure the limit is lower than those of the marder (1.84 compared to 1.96) but enough people are able to fit into it to justify the additional armor in this place.
I served in the Bundeswehr from 2001 to 2013, as a Panzergrenadier Officer (mechanized infantry). I had the pleasure to command a Marder Company for two years. It Was really great. We always jolked, that the Puma will be put into Service in October, only the actual year was unclear.
I loved riding and shooting the Marder. But all I heared so far from my old Comrades, who fought in Afghanistan with the Marder and are now put on the Puma is, rhat the Puma is just amazing.
The Bundeswehr die several training runs with Puma companies fighting against top of the notch Marder Companies, and the Puma ripped em a new one.
The also did a combat simulation Old Pumas vs New Pumas (better communication and live map systems) and the found that the New Puma was 18% more efdective than the old Puma.
Too make a long story short, modern Military equipment is meant to be updated, even the old Panzer 4 had several updates back in the day. And nowadays, with all the technology Updates every year (just Check your Phone, how old is it) its ver assuring to know, that the New Puma can be upgraded any time.
My only concern, being an old Marder guy, is the remote controlled turret. If its broken or even the Munition is gone, you've got some issues. With the Marder you could put New rounds imto the magazine without exiting the vehicle.
Afghanistan the Germans had been in mainly peaceful areas. Not going up against tanks or ifvs
@@TheColombiano89 They were probably stationed there, what else they could do then!? And did the "Taliban" had tanks & IFVs back then?
I'm not sure, but I don't think they did...?
@@TheColombiano89 Dude what's your point? This guy never claimed that his comrades went up against tanks in their Marder. He was just sharing his personal experience. I bet you are also one of the people who claim that the Leopard never saw actual combat and is overrated and only good on paper while there are like 20 nations apart from Germany who use the same tank in active combat unlike the our german army who is more defensive lmao
@@G31M1 Leopard saw combat recently and blew up. Those Leo 2A4s of Turkish army failed but I still think it is a good tank.
@@majorshaker6870 The Leopard 2A5 (Denmark) and 2A6 (Canada) has seen combat in Afghanistan, however, only versus Taliban.
Hey Chris. Never been in the military but have a number of friends who were. Ground pounders in Iraq and Afghanistan, they told me the horror stories about having Bradley's, Strykers, Het's , etc blown up with them inside. All while waiting on the powers that be to authorize that next upgrade. I think that you are spot on in your assessment of the Puma and it's developmental challenges. I also think that the Puma or a Puma like vehicle is the way forward. That muzzle brake fuze setter is really slick!!!
I also like your ground level work from the front. You keep it real. No self centeredness. Just an honest report about a topic that needs to be talked about!!!!! Keep it up dude!!!!!
I was a gunner on the Schützenpanzer Marder and I'm jealous of the Puma crews. The Puma has to be a fantastic vehicle. I was told that I am too tall for the Spz at 1.80m, but it worked great
About the height thing, the german doctrine for IFVs or Schützenpanzer is different to the us‘s. The Panzergrenadiere belong to one ifv and are supposed to work together with the armored units. You specifically apply as panzergrenadier and if you‘re to big, you cant enlist as one
underrated comment.
That'd make sense if it was made solely for the Bundeswehr, but the Germans seem very interested in exporting this vehicle in large numbers to people who don't follow the German doctrine. And to those countries, these height and seat restrictions won't be a plus for the purchase consideration.
@@chinguunerdenebadrakh7022 True, but as far as i know, the export variant of the puma, which's name i forgot, has some differences
cool to know
Still a huge proplem for all the already enlisted Panzergranadiere that are to tall for the puma. I met one who told me his hole platoon consists of people who are to tall by the new hight limitations, and if their KpChef wouldn´t just say "screw this" his hole platoon would be grounded because they weree not allowed to use their new vehicle.
The Bundeswehr is not a conscript army anymore, and still can not afford to select soldiers by hight in basic roles.
Rhein mental and Kraus's wife..... I couldnt hold laughter.
Danke for your translation!
Richtig wäre Rheinmetall und KraussMaffai
@@bobbyfischer7028 Ja seine Aussprache war einfach zu komisch.
War schon premium
He also said Renk engine, but it's an MTU engine, with a Renk transmission.
Something worth mention is , that orginally was planned to build 1000 PUMA IFV , this was downsized to 350 , now upgraded to 500 . Research and Development Costs stays the same = per Unit R+D costs trippled or with the new Order at least doubbled what makes the Unit more expensive . Every new Order will be cheaper because R+D Costs of the project are already compensated .
Unit costs should never include R&D unless specified. A much more useful measure is the marginal cost of what it actually cost of make one more system, but those numbers are incredibly hard to come by.
Great video mate! Cheers.
The Puma got a huge improvement program a few months ago, after wich it excelled at the battle campaign. The problems were solved and the vehicle now is absolutely reliable (at least as far as the Bundeswehr and the Pumas' creators say). The limited number of soldiers come from the very special fighting style of the german "Panzergrenadiers". All in all, it seems like the Germans wanted *their* perfect IFV at all costs, no matter how long it takes.
Also, the Puma is specifically designed for European terrain - some desert and humid areas included - fulfilling the German army's most notable job: homeland defense. If the Germans had an equal number of newer Leopard tanks this might easily be a force alone that could hold the Russians from entering Poland (as that country is economically too weak) or even the Baltics if deployed just in time. Sadly, Germany exports tons of weapons and at the same time totally jumbles its European peacekeeping potential, mostly by underspending its armed forces and having abolished general conscription.
@@dr.paulwilliam7447 It’s still enough to stop the Polish when they attack Russia.
@@dr.paulwilliam7447 Airsoft and simulators are the new alternative to conscription. Conscripts go to shooting range rarely. It's mostly useless stuff like marching. Marching and discipline only necessary to the one point but gotta do repeatedly and waste the time. "Small number" of professional army always beats large army of grunts. If there are too much area to cover, professionals can hold on their own untill conscripts get extensive training in short period of time. They are better at whatever they do at home and contribute to the economy, so handfull people can actually get proper training and do it their job... and also get paid for it.
@@dr.paulwilliam7447 Poland economically too weak? That depends on the percentage of spending they are willing to make. They currently have a better combat ready military than germany. They bought 32 - f35 in 2020 which means their air force will be better than germanies ( like how in the fuck did we germans mess that up?!). Germany has a notorious problem with keeping their equipment combat ready, aswell as not having many forces participate in actual active missions. Poland is active in just about every major conflict since 2003 , including iraq.
But the most important factor is, their social cohesion is MUCH higher than germanies. So many people here in good ol´ Deutschland dislike the military as they still have a guilt complex from the 2nd WW, and as a pole born in germany i think thats sad as hell. In Poland the military is respected and always has been.
Also poland still is the fastest growing economy in Europe by a long shot. They are estimated to reach over 800 billion in GDP by 2025, thats an increase of 200 billion in 4 years.
@@apis_aculei almost.
"It Takes 20 years to perfect a new vehicle"
That's why most Militaries and Insurgencies just use Toyota Hilux with a 12.7mm Soviet Machine gun.
Hint: how many Hilux can you buy for the cost of just one Puma? Unless they get their APCs for free, say a gift from a retarded US president. You can also pile at least twice the number of terrorists in the back of a pick up than in a Puma.
@@tonylam9548 I loved my Hilux
@@tonylam9548 and how many Toyotas would you need to take down just one puma?
@@carso1500 I understand your point. But with that many insurgents and RPGs, bang for buck it's almost better. Before you laugh the last 20 years in Afghanistan the insurgents had no air support, no tanks, no armored personnel carriers and won the fight!
@@williamsample2631 they won in the same way the US lose Vietnam, the population got sick of the war and forced the military to get out, and the casualities on the US side were actually meager nothing, it's was mostly from an economical stand point "why do we keep spending billions of dollars on other countries where there are soo many problems here at home"
I mean yeah the US "lost" and the insurgents won because they decided to retire but it was a political defeat not exactly a military one
Nice video. thank you!
Me a warthunder player when I hear Germany making another puma… P A N I C
her: "Oh sorry - I don't date men who are shorter than 6 ft tall."
German army: "BUT WE DO! PLEASE! TAKE A SEAT! Take a look at this beauty! (reveals Puma IFV behind curtain)"
Finally, an entire division for short kings.
So thats why there are some many recruiters in our restaurants!
The puma is awesome. i am a puma crewmember since its beginning in the regular forces in 2016 and all that was trashy in the beginning is now a running system. with the upgraded puma VJTF it will be ready for any task.many clips from this video are actually from my unit
Gut zu hören. Freut mich, dass unsere Truppen endlich was Anständiges erhalten haben.
How to tell you're a hobbit without telling you're a hobbit.
@@YeeLeeHaw i am 1.80 or 5'11" or in whatever you are measuring. I guess thats not hobbitish
That is pretty awesome, safe to say, I envy you!
@@therealpule So you're a dwarf.
Modular design might be the solution to a lot AFV issues. If the armor can be changed out for different missions, you could have lighter armor where high mobility is needed and heavier armor in situations where protecton is paramount, while still having essentially the same vehicle. You could do the same with different turret modules.
Being millions of dollars over the design budget sounds like a massive problem until you remember that the unit price is likely multiple millions. If the budget overflow is indeed measured in millions, not in tens or hundreds of millions, either developing new AFVs is significantly cheaper than I have expected or the initial budget was actually fairly accurate.
Sorry, its *ONLY* evolution (of war gear) and 'only', soforth.. *GOOD.* (Das *IS* 'god/gut'..;) 'Cos *nomore* (=Need. of any *'stuupid* soldiers'..) RIGHT? - Future *WARS* are: *100%_Digital.* ( Clever. *'AI-* ..robotGears *FIGHT* against .. *Yes* 'enemy ..robots.) And all (so.called.soldiers = Whom (ONLY) SIT their *fatAsses'in* ..Some. Underground *Bunker* ..thousand and THOUSAND's of miles ..Away from..) 'The Actual' *action.* - byeBye.. ' shitty.. *stupid'ol* ..wars'. o'Right? *HOW* about That. - *THINK.* (its *ONLY* evolution of war gear.)
In addition to saying the Puma failed the 2018 audit, you should have mentioned that this year the Puma succeded at the very same audit for NATO VJTF.
The quality of the videos on this channel go down the drain, there are tons of mistakes and misinformation in each video. How can they make a 2021 video based on 3 year old information ?
But only after about a half billion Euros were spent on improvements ...
Is it bad that i actually feel invested in the goat gun intro?
it's the only part of the video worth watching tbh
I'm with ya.
Goat Guns is the only reason I watched this video, although the ad at the end about the Puma IFV was pretty good as well.
😂😂
Thank you Cappy
That goat guns add was perfection lol. Well done Cappy
As far as I know the black and white display was used because it was more resistant to changes in the temperature at this time.
That's a good reason, and they probably paid extra for it too. Meeting military specs can be a pain at times.
@@unknownhours When the Puma was developed they only had black and white screens wich where rated for -40C° thats why chose it.
Right im a Puma Gunner
But they get replaced now.
THat T&P didn't mention that doesn't surprise me. Grunt, yes. Have a damn clue how things work past "if it doesnt work, kick it", no. He doesn't.
Two things that could have been said are:
1.The newest Puma Upgrade for the VJTF in 2023 called S1 as been testet in early 2021 and has been declared "war worthy". This Upgrade ironed out all the issues it had and finally brings out the Pumas full potential.
2.The german Army has a different way of using IFVs compared to most other nations, it´s not just a better armoured APC with a cannon, like a lot of countries use their IFVs. The "Panzergrendiere" fight together and along side of the Puma and are fully networked with it, thanks to their IdZ Gear. So you can´t just look at the Puma, without looking at the way it fights with its dismounts.
this
This concept is not unique to the German Army. US forces call this network-centric warfare. It was pioneered by the US in the 1990s. The US systems are a little more ambitious because they want to integrate all assets including land, air and sea forces so they are taking longer to develop.
@@jacquesstrapp3219 The Germans have pioneered this concept in ww2.
@@scratchy996 Yes but they only had WWII tech to accomplish it. Network-centric warfare uses direct links for all assets.
@@jacquesstrapp3219 Doesnt make it a US concept. German Grenadiers have been fighting with their vehicles togheter since WW2 while the US was still using its IFVs as battle taxis in iraq and afghanistan
I'm really digging the War Games background on the ad. Majestic AF.
Germany just reported the failure of ALL 18 Pumas deployed during an exercise, that was not even particularly demanding.
So yes, this video aged very well.
yea. and after a week everyone agrees that its not the vehicles fault or the producers fault.
Simply just the Bundeswehr getting what they ordered. Spoiler: they kind of always order overcomplicated overprized shit
Cutting edge stuff takes time to perfect, and the days of AFVs being little more than armoured boxes on tracks with a field gun jammed in are long gone. At least the Puma is being built, which can’t be said for a lot of military hardware programs that never get off the ground.
354 vechicles in service with the Bundeswehr.
>AFVs being little more than armoured boxes on tracks with a field gun jammed in are long gone.
why?
@@correctionguy7632 because they are now also jammed packed with lots of high tech electronics, battlefield management systems, CBRN systems, ballistic computers, comms equipment, laser range finders, laser warning receivers, APS systems, radars, thermal vision systems, programmable smart ammo, composite armour, anti-spalling layers, suspended seats, advanced suspension systems, APUs, etc etc. The more high-tech stuff you cram into one the more bugs you will need to work out of the system. Plus all these advanced gizmos need to be integrated and work properly with each other, and since they are all made by different companies in different countries, this isn’t always as quick and easy as anyone would like. That answer your question?
Your intro should include the phrase" sophisticated man about town".
lol no one has ever accused me of being sophisticated
Yes it really should.
I´ve been watching the video over and over again and the "I checked its still a puma" joke makes me smiley every time
Your goat gun short could be the funniest sponsor promo ever. Hysterical
Very recently Matsimus had posted a video regarding the Ajax IFV that they are planning to replace the Warrior with. Basically, they had a lot of problems that doesn’t sound too different from the Puma. Basically these things has major problems that hopefully, is a quality control problem and not a fundamental design issue and that the program may potentially be scrapped.
Ajax is not the warrior replacement boxer will replace warriors
I mean, soldiers not being able to fit inside is fundamental, right?
@@acctsys if it were just that, it would be minor issue, the bigger problem is that the inside of the vehicle is so fucking loud that test crews have been afflicted with permanent hearing damage, plus the whole think shakes like Michael J Fox getting electrocuted
@@Barbaroossa It's that bad. So we answer Luis' dependencies that it's a fundamental design issue.
@@acctsys yes, an absolute fuckup all around
"It kinda looks like a Puma."
"What in the Sam Hill is a Puma?"
Ah, a man of culture, I see :)
Was looking for this one haha
South / Central American version of Mtn. Lion.
@@robertbates6057 Woosh...
Didn't I just tell you to stop making up animals?!
The really good thing about the puma is that it's threat detection system allows it to target drones together with the tungsten pellet dispersion system it's really good at taking them down. Drones are the future and having a good system on your troops transports to counter it is very good.
After Ukraine, EVERYONE is going to be concerned about drones. I think few people understood what a force multiplier they are.
A commercial drone and a communication line to a Paladin, and somebody is having a bad day.
'you have to wonder what was sacrificed with all that armor '
well, you said it yourself: internal space/troop carrying capacity
Puma's been ready since 2015 tho. They've only been fixing some minor problems since then.
Yes ! Very true I should have been more specific and said the puma wouldn’t be FULLY ready till upgrades are done on S1 version in 2029 , it’s operationally acceptable since at least 2018
Well the Puma in the VJTF version (with MELLS anti-tank missiles, the MUSS counter-measures, colour displays etc.) was tested in March this year and declared to be fully operational.
For the VJTF deployment the industry will upgrade 40 Pumas to this standard, that‘s supposed to be done until the end of this year.
Later there’s probably going to be a contract to upgrade a further 226 Pumas to this VJTF standard.
@@Taskandpurpose hi, the biggest sellingpoint for the bundeswehr was as far as i know the integration of the puma in the "infanterist der Zukunft" system were they can stream in real time information to the soldiers on foot
@@mark-ms7ox Not only this.
It is Made for Transport in the A400M Transport Plane.
And it is Made for the Bundeswehr exactly!
Puma was compromised by air transport requirements. Maximum vehicle weight had to allow it to fit in the A400M. The only way to do this and achieve the desired protection level was to lower the roof, which is why it is so cramped. Keeping the weight low was also why the first version had five road wheels instead of six. The most important reason why fleet availability was so bad was because the Bundeswehr did not order a spare parts package when the vehicles were originally delivered. Many of those parts were long lead items which took 12-18 months to manufacture, hence the delay. Within its design limitations, Puma delivers superb mobility, protection and firepower. It is undoubtedly the most survivable IFV. I am 6 foot and had no problem riding in it. It also has a decoupled running gear, which means noise and vibration are not transmitted from the tracks, road wheels and suspension to the crew compartment. Net, net, I would rather be in this than any alternative. Puma has come good in 2021. But Krauss Maffei Wegmann and Rheinmetall will improve it further.
What happens if noise and vibration levels are getting out of control is shown to us by the Ajax. It might very well be that the whole project will be axed because of that.
By the way, didn’t know that you are also active on CZcams as well Mr. Drummond.
Yeah, the air transport and "Fallschirmjäger" deployment really hindered both its armour and size. Were the "spec ops" requesting a special variant instead of requesting a be all end all for all troops, the puma would have been amazing. Armour like an MBT, transport a dozen soldiers and mobility of an IFV would have made Puma the state of the art of the world. In the end now Lynx is the hunter the Puma should have been and it sells better than fresh bread
@@fatalityin1 nah the puma was made for the German army and the German army likes to only have 6 people in the back.
Its good in War Thunder and thats all I care
the puma is trash for modern insurgency warfare, it can only use one weapon (its canon) at a time, the infantry inside the vehicle can't engage threats
It failed again this week. When 18 Pumas took part in am exercise and after two days all 18 had sever system issues which rendered them useless. :(
Warrior and Marder are being kept in service for longer. There are now many Remote Weapon Systems that are available which would improve these vehicles and provide a lot of the functionality of the Puma and Ajax whilst using a proven base platform.
The thing with the height is more about safety restrictions than it is about it being actually possible. The former main IFV of the German Forces were way smaller, just didn’t have the regulations written down. It’s actually quite roomy. Just as Russians aren’t particularly tiny but still have IFVs half the height of NATO Forces.
The "problem" is caused by the mine protection. The seats have to be decoupled from the hull. If a mine explodes under the vehicle, you need enough headroom. A soldier above 1.84 meters would risk suffering head and neck injuries.
@@comsubpac The interesting question is, would he still be better off in the puma, or would the old marder provide tall guys with a better mine protection?
@@kilianortmann9979 Puma.
The Russians have hordes of dwarves and midgets to man their BMPs, thanks to poor nutrition. Germany doesn't.
@@nobodynoname6062 What a idiotic comment, the average Russian male is about as high as the average German male.
Great video, but you missed a few rather important points.
Example: The greatest advantage of the unmanned gurret is, that in combination with the independent periscope, gunner and commander can switch roles within the press of a button. So, both keep spotting in a designated area, and as soon as one of them has a target on sight, he can, if using the periscope instead of the weapon-optics, auto-rotate the turret to that target and the periscope autorotates to the sector the other one was spotting using the weapon-optics. That alone almost doubles the number of targets you are able to identify and shoot.
this sounds alot more efficient
I'll note that the Marder also featured reduced squads of 6 (7 before MILAN was added), so from the average Panzergrenadier's perspective, that's no change. German policy regards dismounts and crew as one squad, albeit an over-officered one, as both the dismount lead and the vehicle commander are OR-5 NCOs.
The height issue isn't much of one, either. Back in the day, I was disqualified from serving in tanks for being too tall, and IIRC, Marders had the same 185cm cutoff as the Leo 2. The problem here is that if you make the IFV tall enough to fit, say, 200cm people, it becomes a bigger target. Width, incidentally, is determined a) by the width of German roads and b) by the width of railroad cars meant to carry AFVs - we do recall how much of a pain it was to have to fit special "transport tracks" to the Tiger, because the actual tracks were too wide to fit the rail cars.
I would also bear in mind that the Puma is very much a compromise between "able to deliver support to infantry engaged in counter-insurgency" and "can kill BMP-3 and Armata IFV reliably". I expect the Spikes to remain modular, and *not* to be fitted to vehicles deployed to counter-insurgency ops.
I love the funny bits like "I checked, it's still a Puma". 🤣🤣🤣. Hilarious. This is the reason I sub.
An important thing you missed is the squad to IFV connectivity as the Puma seems to work as an information center for the troops it's carrying. The Puma receives video and other infos from the soldiers and vice-versa and I think that's probably the most important point to this new vehicle.
Might be time for me to step down from this lol......
Great video as always. Looks like I am slowly becoming out of the job!
No, you are my first choice
Matsimus! We should do a collaboration, I love your work man
You two are the best! I couldn't believe to see Mat watching Cappy :)))) That's great! GOOD JOB YOU TWO!
Not really, another opinion from an experienced user are always welcome.
you walked so other defense channels could run
The way you said those company names 😂😂😂 .... I almost wet myself ... pure comedy !
"Millions over budget" applies to that ad too G 🤣
Love the Arma 3 footage
glad you liked it because it took me forever to record it lol messing around it that game is difficult
@@Taskandpurpose I believe there are a lot of camera mode mods that make it easier to create a cinematic. Because working with the editor and trying to film things from the players point of view is a pain in the ass. I can relate.
@@rarecalifornian3398 Yeah, as someone who spent mostly on other parts of ArmA, footage wise will require you to understand Eden especially at making scenarios to make something like Banned Inc. or KinglesPringles
@@notsoprofessionalweeb I personally refrain from giving myself a headache and so shy away from Eden as much as possible. But I know a CZcamsr called viper1zero focuses on the cinematic side of things. He even has a list for best cinematic mods or something.
Indian news anchors love it too
I always wondered if there wasn't a government procurement program that couldn't adhere to the boundaries of a proposed IFV spec sheet. Many of these vehicles seem "great on paper", only to run head-first in the manufacturing realities of gross weight/horse power ratios, ease of maintenance and a host of other issues (i.e. just look at the poor AJAX's vibration problems that has suspended the entire program).
I find myself drawn back to the CV90 program, which is still evolving through successive iterations of a reasonably balanced design and continues to draw data from the current users for further improvements. It's expensive for sure, but there's also a growing volume of both useful data and practical experience under deployment conditions- which seems like a bargain in light of unresolved problems with some other well-publicized vehicle systems.
Great video, Sir. Lots of food for thought...
I think the big problem of the Puma would be it keeps breaking. It doesn’t matter how advanced and capable your IFV is if it doesn’t work much of the time.
Just perfect, if you could make a Video for k2 Tank or k9 howitzer it would be awesome.
6:50 losing orientation because you're only watching through a camera seems like a silly problem in the 21st century, because video games have found solutions for this a long time ago.
A simple 2d image showing the direction of the turret relative to the hull works decently, but you can even superimpose the vehicle and sight cone of a camera onto a map.
like used in reality aswell.
even in the 70s marder ifv you have a physical display on turret position in relation to the hull
In manned turrets you losse the orientation as well in the same way if you are under teh hatch (which the gunner usually is). Therefore you have to have a visual from the turret-position relative to the hull - and all those vehicles have that. With all that cameras arround the system also could create a from-above-view for overview purposes. Not sure if the Puma can do this, but my Toyota can do with only 4 Cams....
So true, I immediately thought of World of Tanks
@@911epic Even WWII vehicles like the Panther would come with an azimuth indicator inside the commanders cupola to make it easier to tell which way the hull is pointing and thus command the driver properly.
@@builder396 true
"The Puma is known as the best Infantry Fighting Vehicle in the world while at the same time being plagued with development problems. What's really gone on here? " A beautiful hot mess, that's what.
The classic crazy vs hot scenario
@@Taskandpurpose lmao
Well then, it's perfect for the times we are in.
Hmm really don't beat a Griffon / AMX 10P / EBRC JAGUAR or even older VAB.
@@ommsterlitz1805 wtf are you talking about, all of those would get their shit beaten in by the Puma because it has an amazing FCS with all around Cameras, a high accuracy gun that can fire 30x173mm APFSDS, HE and Programmable rounds, with the APFDS penetrating upwards of 100mm out to 1000m. The VAB would get absolutely shit on because its armor can only protect against 7.62 rounds and would get turned into swiss cheese by the Pumas 30mm. Same with the VBMR Griffon and EBRC Jaguar. Especially the AMX 10P would be shit on, its dated asf and against any force armed with anything but rifles and the occasional 12.7mm it would get torn to bits. None of the Vehicles could compete in the role the Puma would be utilised in, the Puma would be on the very Frontline, fighting alongside Tanks as a IFV and Firesupport Vehicle. Not just that but unlike the AMX 10P and the standard VAB variant it has much more Protection against IED's. Dont even get me started on the overall armor, which is miles better than that of any of the Vehicles you mentioned, being able to soak up RPG's and older ATGM's is a huge advantage when fighting alongside Tanks in direct Combat. The Puma would whip the shit out of any of the Vehicles you mentioned in most Scenarios due to its Mobility, Armor and Weaponry.
Puma wasn't designed for peace-keeping at all. Its frontal armor can be upgraded to almost MBT-like protection levels. That would not be necessary in Afghanistan-like scenarios.
Puma's dismount squad is the same size as Marder's, so all's good on that front.
Surprised to see Arma footage here, because right now I'm playing it while watching this.
Only a decade late and MILLIONS over budget? That's small potatoes for the US military. I think we've failed like 3 Bradley replacement and BILLIONS at this point.
to be fair I should have said billions of budget with that addition of 1.23 billion dollar price tag to get it operational. but yeah I still think its worth it
@@Taskandpurpose Yeah man, I love the Puma. Especially if they can adapt a 40 or 50mm turret down the road like the US army wants.
Impressive the US has been our military ally since the 1950's and still know next to nothing about Mechanized Infantry/Panzergrenadiere, i.e. calling the Puma a "battle taxi" and mentioning carrying capacity as a restricting element even though the Panzergrenadiersquad consist of both the vehicle and the dismounts - no one gets left behind. The US senate(IIRC) had the Puma reviewed and came to the conclusion that it was better than the Bradley, with cost and carrying capacity being mentioned as downsides. This report is already a couple years old. So if the Puma failed its combat test[Citation needed], what does that say about the current and upgraded Bradley being thrust into the same testing enviroment?
Oh, and don't misunderstand: There have been issued with the Puma since the start of its development cycle. They have been identified, solutions attempted, solutions found, solutions implemented ever since. There's no reason to assume what issues still exist WILL get ironed out.
Also, the height limit introduced was for two reasons: 1. Reducing risk of head injury should the vehicle run over a mine. 2. Worker Protection Laws. You can bet both would get thrown out the window if it ever came down to finding enough dismounts.
His video is not wrong. Rheinmetall is a shitshow concerning IT and the puma really failed all tests concerning AI-technology in 2019. By that time and after social media outlash they brought in Rohde&Schwarz (back then just a small manifacturer for lightly armored troup transports, command vehicles and secure coms devices). Those took over all the IT-research and not even a month ago the Puma had another big test and excelled in all their earlier failed categories. So this video is not wrong, its info is just out of date. And Rheinmetall too saw their error in creating an IT-heavy vehicle with mostly engineers, just look at their youtube channel, not even aerbus is catering to young IT-professionals this much as much as rheinmetall currently does.
US mechanized doctrine is almost identical to Panzergrenadiere doctrine. The US places more emphasis on close air support but otherwise they are very similar. The "battle taxi" doctrine is an old concept that was used before the introduction of IFVs. Doctrine has to match your equipment. When all you have is aluminum boxes (M113) you emphasize dismounted combat. The US currently has 3 types of infantry brigades, mech, Stryker and light. Each has it's own doctrine and TO&E based on their equipment and missions. When the Bradley was introduced doctrine and TO&E changed drastically. The same is true when the Stryker was introduced. The Puma is superior in many ways but high tech systems take longer to work out problems. I suspect that just like the Bradley, the Puma will see many upgrades to overcome these difficulties.
@@jacquesstrapp3219 it certainly is in the Heavy Brigades or whatever they are calling them these days, but in the Stryker BCTs I'm pretty sure that they don't operate in the same manner. Strykers very much are "battle taxis" this distinction is relevant because the presenter was in a SBCT and therefore thats the paradigm he's used to thinking in - point and case him pointing out the 6 man dismount capacity as a negative
@@VitaminsB1212 As I said before, each type of brigade has it's own doctrine. Stryker brigades are closer to motorized infantry than mechanized so their tactics reflect this. Common sense should tell you that the Stryker would not be effective in an IFV role.
Haha bro, the US doesn’t give a rip about workers protection laws for Soldiers. That’s fucking funny
Ausgezeichnet, very good evaluation.
That Krauss 'wife' part got me in tears, i know its sometimes hard to pronounce foreign names but thats the most hilarious misspronounciation of Maffei ive ever heard :D
In my humble opinion, you seem to have reasonably well vulgarized the relative merits/deficiencies of the Puma.
As you aptly stated, development issues are generally revealed as the bits of kit get issued/used/abused by the end-users!
Thus, a 10+ yr adjustment period integrating tech with hardware and user requirements is par for the course.
All new high tech toys are money pits initially, then they hit their stride and all is forgiven.
Sorry, its *ONLY* evolution (of war gear) and 'only', soforth.. *GOOD.* (Das *IS* 'god/gut'..;) 'Cos *nomore* (=Need. of any *'stuupid* soldiers'..) RIGHT? - Future *WARS* are: *100%_Digital.* ( Clever. *'AI-* ..robotGears *FIGHT* against .. *Yes* 'enemy ..robots.) And all (so.called.soldiers = Whom (ONLY) SIT their *fatAsses'in* ..Some. Underground *Bunker* ..thousand and THOUSAND's of miles ..Away from..) 'The Actual' *action..* - byeBye.. ' shitty.. *stupid* ..wars'. o'Right? *HOW* about That. - *THINK.* (its *ONLY* evolution of war gear.)
I remember there was an interview with a comment regards the black-and-white display. There was a requirement to operate this vehicle at quite low temperatures. And at the given time of development only such displays where available.
Add 2 inches to the turret and to the body. They are trying to create enough energy to keep all the systems going. The Philippines just bought a bunch of t 90 M's with remote near/ indirect land battle dominance to support their tanks. It needs a center turret shaft for troops, but would be remote. A lock feature would keep it from going powered when in load or manned turret mode.
There was a tank made in the 70's that used a rapid fire about 57 cal. gun to punch through the Russian made tanks and APC's. There are some cool things they could do to make the thing more survivable, deadly and lightweight. It looks like a rpg cage could go on it to put an additional 2 inch stand off on most surfaces. The transmission, gun turret, power pack and engine needs to be modular, with a 4 hour switch out time for each component.
Expensive equipment sucks right up until it completely wipes the floor with what it's fighting and transitions from being able to win into total domination.
Hello from Germany that was a very good video about the different aspacts of the spz puma
I'm gonna need all the goat gun ads together as a feature length release, thanks in advance
Hey mate, fancy doing a video on the British Ajax? Cost overruns, time overruns, shaking the testing crews heads til they have health issues etc..
It will be a great vehicle when they get it right but at the moment, there's no end in sight so we carry on using the 1960's designed and built Scimitar family of light armoured vehicles..
That "commercial" was so funny damnit !
"It looks like a warthog.. Nah it's more like a puma"
As for my personal experience with the Puma is that it is an absolut beast IF it works properly. But due to it being new and therefore having problems and the lack of spareparts it is now in a realy bad spot where those two problems come together and created that absolute mess of combat readiness. As for the height problem that is only because if you hit a IED you must not be taller then 6 foot otherwise you risk injury. The black and white screens where only used since they where the only onces wich where rated for -40 but i think they will be replaced. In sumary the Puma just needs more funding and faster problem solving and upgrading of it´s electronics.
If you have any further questons feel free to ask.
Anyway have a good day :D.
"the Puma is that it is an absolut beast IF it works properly."
A machine that does the impossible with Kraut Space Magic (tm).
And as soon as the German Engineers in the repair bay stop doing their maintenance wizardry; reality catches up and your wonder weapon is now a multi-ton paperweight.
Why am I not surprised.
Can you compare the puma with the lynx?
Is it true that you cant transport it by railway?
@@ralfis1234 yes
@@emilsinclair4190 Im sorry but you are wrong the Puma was planed with 3 armor variants A, B ,C. A for air transport b for train transport and c wich is the combat ready puma. The B variant was scraped because the puma is also transportable by train with its C variant.
(edit) the puma is allways the same vehicle. The variants can be installt or removed to make the puma transportable by air/ make it combat ready.
Hey Cappy, loved the intentional butchering of the German language!
0:00 This video was made danks to our partner ...
0:06 ... they're switching away from building armored vehicles and weapons that were specifically designed for "peacekeeping" missions ...
2:50 ... two of Germany's most prestigious and historical armored vehicle manufacturers joined forces: Rhein-mental and Krauss' wife have been around since 1889 and 1860 respectively ...
7:04 The vehicle was audited by lawmakers from the bunden-hivan-shroff [Bundesrechnungshof, spoken boondis-rashnoongs-hohf, actually similar to the GAO, although it is not part of the legislative power, instead being Germany's fourth power] ...
That fragmenting shell feature sounds perfect for shooting down drones
Did he say "Kraus' wife" was involved in the development? That explains things.
Krauss Maffei
@@BerndGSchneider It was that funny Italian name Maffei that threw him off, pronounced MahFAY.
Very interesting. Good points regarding the optimisation towards non near peer opponents with low acceptance for casualties.
One thing though the programable rounds sounds exactly what the CV90 have. Or atleast what the bofors 40mk variants have. So not only typical for the puma.
Interesting here might also be the puma compared to the lynx. What are the defining features and how do they translate to the purpose/end customers need and doctrine.
In a german Tv show ,covering the puma, one of the soldiers told the interviewer that often the pumas entire computersytem would crash. Then it took round about 9 minutes before it could move again :^)
Sounds Awesome!! Just needs to cook longer?
I loved the GOAT gun ad! The rest of the video was fine, too. 😆
7:16 well thats not so much because the vehicle itself, but has more to do with the fact that our army doesnt stock up on spares (beurocrats somehwo messed that up im defenetifly not an expert) and it takes like ages for the new parts to arrive so they have to scavenge spare parts frome some pumas to keep at least a small number running
I actualy drove in one in my bootcamp it looks cramped but when u sit its pretty comfy. I must say i still like my lether drivers seat in my Leo more
I want the simulator you are using, it looks pretty good. Loving the content
Tinders girls be like: Swipe left if you can fit in a Puma IFV
"You know what I call guys under 6 ft? Puma IFV squad detachments."
You must be THIS - TALL TO RIDE THIS RIDE.
The PUMA has Tally-Ban written all over it.
7:08 Oh…okay, “Bundesrechnungshof”…
It took me a few try’s to decipher that one 😂
It’s one of those words where the middle sounds all scratchy, from the throat. Pretty much vocal Everest for most non native speakers. So props for giving it a shot 👍
This Puma has got all the bells & whistles but it doesn't do what it was intended to do, so. It becomes support for bigger slower vehicals. It can be used as a phalanx o r to bring up the rear.
I think it looks more like a warthog.
Not the A-10 Thunderbolt...
@@genghisgalahad8465, that was a reference.
@@jesupcolt I understood that reference...
*They call me- MR PIG!*
Rheinmetall went all in with the modularity. the 35mm gun is modular, used widely in different systems and the lynx ifv is arguably just a puma with an even more modular approach. They ideally want every new development to be tweakable so as to cover as big a market as possible.
I guess an Update would be very nice...😉😊😊
Caught you out on your record player analogy... vinyl sales are through the roof
I can't imagine an armored vehicle produced after the 80's that I wouldn't replace the Bradley with tbh.
Namer.
Merkava
I’d also say Stryker, but they are widely different missions and the Stryker is really a replacement for the M113, and should have done it across the board, especially in armored formations, since the 113 is trash as a mortar carrier or ambulance,
The bradley is a dated piece of aging equipment. The only reason why they all haven’t been destroyed yet is because the Taliban/ISIS can only bring RPG-7 rockets to shoot it.
So yeah, literally anything can replace the bradley, since well, in a real war they will all be destroyed.
On a plus side, at least R&D in the military contractors won’t be sitting on their asses anymore
@@gamingrex2930 I mean if the best they've got is RPG-7s then an M2 Bradley might as well be a light tank. They're mine resistant as well. They get thoroughly outclassed by newer IFVs, but against older tech they're a very tough opponent to deal with.
@@gamingrex2930 You know the Bradley has benn in "real" wars right......
It did quite ok, it was there to win the gulf war.
You know what nation hasn't been in a 'real' war? Germany. Most German hardware is basically untested against equivalent equipment.
Most European Union countries would get a rude shock against a near peer opponent, should the day ever come.
@@gamingrex2930 you are stupid the Bradley's have seen and fought in wars and still manage to keep themselves up and running unlike the germans who havent seen war in along time
So far, am at 8.08 and the Puma is still kicking Ajax's ass.
The Lynx has the same cannon and fuzing capability. The 35mm Skyguard AAA system was the first to feature programmable rounds, in 2006-ish.
I was stationed in Germany for a couple years, 1st Btn, 4th Inf, TOW gunner. The average panzergrenadier was much big bigger than the average yank. I mean, like I was shocked. They all seemed to be at least six feet tall.
1. It's somehow reassuring to see Germany and the US having the same programme issues replacing their IFVs that we're having in the UK - I'd ask for a video on AJAX, but it'd probably be basically the same as this.
2. I need a goat guns spin-off miniseries.
It seems like we’re all in this together… Defence projects are a mess in every country. Some just don’t allow their media to report on it
Germany’s program is finished, the US is starting yet another attempt to find a Bradley replacement.
@@jansix4287 it’s kinda misleading to say that Germanys program is finished. We still need to upgrade all Pumas to the newest standard and there are still a lot of Marders that need replacement. Initial development is indeed finished though
@@maxt9657 Puma is combat ready and can be deployed immediately. Upgrade programs will go on forever.
The more I see other countries struggle with IFV my appreciation for the CV-90 grows even more.
Sometimes it seems to me that defense contractors are just trying to squeeze as much money out of the governments as possible by intentionally under delivering and then saying "Well... we need more money for r&d, upgrades, and there's also this and that"
That is an understandable notion, BUT the way the government asks the companies to preproduce, preplan, modellize etc. their military hardware is hideously laughable. In Germany, the Bundesamt für Ausrüstung, Informationstechnik und Nutzung der Bundeswehr was reshaped in 2012 because its predecessor was so flawed and bureaucratized. If you hear about the German defense ministry employing hundreds of external advisors costings millions over millions of dollars, you know why. That reforming process has not yet finished, leaving Germany without an adequate link between its military and arms producers. Not so easy in a democracy like Germany!
Sure, but constantly chaning requirements (and still not being precise with their "Lastenheft") have their great share in this.
Gasp!
I wonder if there's information out there about the reliability of this IFV. I know the LANCE system has been around for some time, I remember seeing the AA version tests videos, but it does have a lot parts to it that can break. The rest of the vehicle is filled with that as well. For example what happens if the muzzle electronics fail and don't set the fuse time, does it explode on impact? does it have a default timer? how effective is it without that muzzle? Or what happens if the automatic smoke deployment malfunctions?
I wanna point out that I am not saying that the Puma seems to be unreliable, plenty of vehicles have electronics and a lot of moving parts that can break down, I am just genuinely curious to know if there is any information available out there talking about this topic and wether there have been improvements in reliability in general for this project.