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The Weight Is Over - Building the Raptor Prototype
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- čas přidán 4. 03. 2019
- So the first weigh-in with everything is in the books. You'll have to watch the video to see the results. Other than that we get closer every day to being ready to move the aircraft up to the airport for it's initial taxi testing.
This has officially become the "happy pleasure" of my week, seeing Tues and Sat videos come in. Can't wait to see her take off for the first time after all this work. Great job gentlemen!
Peter, I salute you! Most people would be cursing under their breath or just be mad and impatient. When you run it problems you probably think "dang." But to get up and solve other problems. Later, when you come back to the first problem, somehow you figure it out. I'm glad to say I kind of know you!
I find it interesting, but also typical, that nearly every video I’ve watched over the past three years has had glowing comments about every step of the process yet when the weight issue came up in this video,, all of a sudden there are dozens and dozens of I told-you-so-ers and nay sayers crawling out of the woodwork. Now the engine is a horrible idea. Insurance is impossible. Costs will never work out. The weight is not solvable. Maybe I completely missed it, but I don’t remember seeing many of these comments earlier. Now that there is a hurdle, everyone is jumping on the bandwagon. Personally, I believe based on what ive seen with the attention to detail that this wil be solved. . Look at all of the amazing work that has been done. Focus on possible solutions for cutting weight. Provide those comments. Solutions, not problems.
Well I must be a Raptor video addict, it's Saturday & I'm jonesin' for a new one....had to watch this one twice ! lol
Sadly, this is Peter's first reality setback. It's not a game killer because even at a gross weight of say 4200 lbs it'll still have a better power to weight ratio than a A36 Bonanza. No, the two elephants in the room are the cost and insurance. I built N36LV. I thought I could do it for $180K. It took more than $230K to finish it. Peter's got a $20K+ propeller hanging off the back, an engine system worth at least $40-50K, $7K worth of Hysol, $75K worth of avionics, etc, etc. Figure another $15-$20K for paint and interior. Notice I haven't mentioned the cost of anything built out of carbon fiber yet? Now to the really ugly part. How many builders can go bareback without hull insurance for a quarter million dollar plus investment. Insurance was one of the driving factors that made me decide to sell the plane. Aviation insurance companies hate fast homebuilts. They really hate fast, retractable gear homebuilts. They absolutely despise automotive engine conversions. And lastly, the thought of a reasonably-priced, fast, auto-engined, retractable-gear, pressurized homebuilt will send them scurrying into the woodwork. When my plane first flew, my premiums were $3700 a year for a hull value of $230K. Six years later, they were climbing past $7500 a year for a hull value of $180K and I had never scratched a plane in 30 years of flying. It is my opinion, at least until someone puts a thousand or so hours of safe flying on one of these planes, hull insurance will not be available at any cost. Bummer.
So glad to see some more work on the doors. I had started to worry they might be done
Peter,
Things are really looking great! It's super exciting to think about how soon we'll all be seeing this beautiful thing moving under her own power.
Thanks for showing us all the successes and not-so-successes; keep up the great work, you're almost there!
Regards,
Jon
WOW, this is one gorgeous looking plane, can’t wait for its first flight!!!
I really look forward to watching your build videos, thank you for posting them.
Looking forward to seeing her fly. Great job getting this together!
I truly appreciate all of the well thought out features, and functional benefits of these well thought out features, as will the passengers and any other Raptor Pilot. The fact that this aircraft has phenomenal ramp appeal, both inside and out, is just a bonus.
This airplane is so important to aviation. It doesn’t matter to me as a consumer if all I can put in this airplane is two small adults and two 25lb bags.
What matters to me is that I can travel at 220kts at 25k feet, and I can get 7gph fuel burn.
What matters is that I’m not forced to spend 100,000.00$ plus for a 300hp airplane engine. finally someone has put some real time and effort into integrating a car engine into an airplane and sharing the experience real time.
I have been a aerospace engineer for near 10 years now and would be happy to contribute to this endeavor to help make it a success.
When you start taking escrow payments again I’ll be waiting.
Trent Palmer has some really good explanations on why you want an engine built for a plane. It boils down to the manufacturer testing, validating and providing service bulletins or even grounding if it not safe. That's what you get with the price.
@@TheJttv Aviation engines are dinosaurs. Well proven dinosaurs, but costs for research and development needed to push current technology into general aviation is just astounding. Modern auto engines LS1/LS3, and especially diesels VW TDI/Audi TDI, have the durability and reliability to survive and thrive in aviation today if the platform is engineered to use it. Trent Palmer has a very entertaining channel, and he among many others stick their noses up at auto engines. I look forward to a $5000 zero TSN engine replacement, higher performance, less maintenance, more efficient and economical engine choice. GearedDrives has some great amounts of data for his system and how many hours his system has thrived on the LS3 geared PSRU (tens of thousands of hours without failure). Great setup. This little TDI......if the in-house belt driven PSRU holds up then this TDI is gonna make the GA industries head spin.
@@shawnbryan6626 Agreed. If any pure automotive engine can transition to GA, the Audi/VW will be the one. Audi/VW has been building tdi's since the 1940's. When they see how successful Raptor's engine will be, they may take interest. Drone applications alone could create a new and successful line of business for them. I hope Peter will get some serious credit for pioneering the the turbos, redrive, electronics, etc., etc... Amazing work.
@@PistonAvatarGuy Have you seen all of the videos from this series? Peter has this thing on the test stand pushing 450hp. I do believe its been dialed back a bit since then, but the hp/lb ratio is going to be adequate if not a bit overpowered. The CD-300 certified diesels costs are rediculous. There is no way the average aircraft owner could ever afford to retrofit or purchase a new Cessna 182. Frankly an $80,000 engine option is just too much.
II think I read Peter comment last year to one poster who said electric was they way to go for this project in the future. Ha agreed. Also, he mentioned at the open house building an engine to challenge the conventional approach was a big part of what his paradigm is about. He can always fall back on a certified dinosaur. Anyone following that Siemens electric power plant for LSAs?
Can’t wait to see it fly for the first time!
I worked as a painter when young. Water the floor before paiting and you keep the really small particles on the ground instead of getting airborne and into the paint job. Awesome craftmanship and lovely to follow the progress. I wouldn't mind a try for electric motor but I guess impossible to keep all the batteries needed in the wings and still fly.
I wish I live near these guys, would love to help out as volunteer while gaining all the experiences, and hopefully one day I could build my own aircraft.
Awesome progress!
Amazing. All the respect.
May God Bless all who sail in her - you all deserve heaps of praise for the work involved.
Such a painstaking process, but VERY interesting. I think you will have been compiling information on suppliers, methods, information on parts, photos etc for FAA eventually! HUGE task. Excellent job. looking forward to see her fly
In terms of weight savings for future aircraft - there are some "low hanging fruit" types of items that could be changed out for future aircraft. For example, make your own wiring ducts using one layer of bid molded around a tube with duct tape as opposed to buying plastic conduit at the hardware store. It was quicker to just buy the stuff for the prototype as opposed to constructing something custom to be lighter so that was probably a decent trade-off for the first plane.
As always an awesome vid, my fix for weds morning is complete now, can't wait to see high speed tax and first flight.
The heck with the Avengers, you are my hero! I am building a Quickie Q2 with a Yamaha Genesis engine, so we have many of the same kind of challenges to work through, mine are just on a smaller scale. I learn so much from these videos. I started watching when you bought the big table mill and haven't missed an episode. Thanks for the inspiration, the Raptor is going to be my next plane.
Hi Sage, hows your build going? The Quickie is a gorgeous Aircraft. I tried doing research on it but the quickheads site is gone. What sites can I check out? Also, is the moisture on the canard issue resolved?
@@neve1064 There is a great group on Facebook for the Quickies, tons of knowledgeable people on there too. The Q200 had a redesigned canard they call an LS2 it has an increased gross weight and different shaped airfoil that handles the rain better. The Q2 has to GU canard but they say vortex generators fix the rain issue as well.
Great news. Beautiful airplane.
This aircraft is just beautiful. Being in the pusher configuration, the unobstructed view will be an amazing experience for both pilot and passengers. I’m still loving the turbo diesel/re-drive variable prop setup, it needs to be done more often imo.
I am continually impressed and like many getting excited. Empty weight of the prototype is not a huge deal. With all those systems there are LOTS of opportunities for a diet.
On the c/g, the most important thing, perhaps a small fuel tank in the nose if a battery change is not enough? Concord style.
Perfect,waiting the big day 👍
I'm waiting for the Saturday video with bated breath. It's Monday already. I can't stand the suspense! :-) LOL!
Good to see the process at 11 minutes is the same for full scale as it is models ;)
Guys. You are all well and scrupulously .. but genius is in simplicity)
I can’t wait for the maiden flight either. Beautiful aircraft.
A 26% overrun from the specified mass would be a hard-down full-stop red alert in any rational aerospace company. As I've posted on HBA, I think you can still get some value from this airframe. But I think you need to go back to the drawing board and do a better job of managing both mass and expectations.
Yeah at least test the airframe and engine while the interior and options are kept to a minimal. Focus on figuring out the weight an balance using lead to experiment with payload and performance expectations. Then once you know the payload “budget” option it out starting from the most important features. Would be a shame to spend all that money on options just to need to pull them out to get the weight down. Would be an even bigger shame to have a totally optioned our finished aircraft then run into serious flight testing issues that could’ve been addressed at a much earlier stage.
The aircraft will keep on getting heavier as it nears completion and the interior is refined. 200lbs now might end up being 300-350lbs once the rest of the interior is done and paint is added to the exterior.
27% of estimated empty weight is significant. Curious which items are the leading weight hogs.
Yeah the diesel engine was almost doubled what he projected, I figured this would happen when I saw that video. It's really easy to keep adding weight, and ever since he weighed the engine I've been noticing non stop adding of little items he didn't account for in CAD
Peter, is the there space in the nose for a weather radar, like the Garmin GWX 75 with a 10″ or 12″ antenna? Sounds like, the CG can handle the extra weight.
That’s 600 lbs more than the cirrus and you don’t have paint yet. Can you just look at the wing loading and see if that’s logical on the curve for the performance you’re looking for.
As I said, it's a prototype and there are a lot of things in there that are experiments that can be removed for production. However, keep in mind that there is a lot of added weight to handle the pressurization. It was also designed to be flown in the utility category at all weights. So it is overbuilt.
I just wondered since you know the wing area and weight now you know the wing loading. That will tell you how much drag at your intended speed and how how much hp. These aren’t criticisms. It’s amazing what you’ve created. We all want the ultimate outcome.
Raptor Aircraft How much fuel is still on board from the recent shake down runs? Do/can you raise the 3600 lb gross wt ?
Performance won’t be affected, useful load will be.
Loving these updates! Looks like first flight is just around the corner, can't wait! Is projected price still on target?
Whats happened to Saturdays videoblog? This is from last Tuesday? I am suffering from withdrawal symptoms here! I need my Raptor Fix! Peter did say ity was going to be skimpy - not none existent!
For all the Debbie Downers.... this is a prototype... there will be many places to save weight. Peter has thought this out for years, shaving weight on the production kits will be no problem. The "yellow gear" (test sensors) will tell all... this plane has been over engineered for a reason. Lets get it flying and then worry about saving a couple hundred pounds. Lets show our support to get it going and not complaining.
Would the C/G not change when the gear is cycled?- front leg goes forward..
You're an inspiration, Peter. Will the Raptor be at Oshkosh this year? Also, your Angellist page and the website list different prices. Which is correct?
She is beautiful!
Question for you: The landing gear wheel sets look like they are from Beringer. Nice gear indeed. I just checked, are you sure these are strong enough to carry the bird? The largest Beringer sets (JAB02-HE3) are rated for ~2100lbs static. Your empty weight once complete will be around 3000lbs. Add fuel, engine fluids, passengers. Are you sure the wheels are the right choice?
I am sure that once you start building these in numbers your weight will drop as the design is refined and manufacturing starts to eliminate excess materials etc.
Where's the Saturday video.......I need it!
Have you named the aircraft? It sure looks sleek, fine :). Wishing you good luck with the relocation !
Love the updates!! I do have one question. What number hysol are you using? And where can I source some? Thanks!!
Awesome build enjoy the vids... but i must say too many "do dads". All that wire adds weight ,engine compartment is a plumber's nightmare. Best of luck cant wait for the first flight.
Optimistic mind of mine read it "Wait is over".....
Where's the Sat video this week? Something happen to the plane?
Guys!!!!!!! When flight ?????
When it ready to fly?
Can't pull the screws out of the old one ?
Wow, love the airplane. Quick question, the 7gph you estimate, how heavy is the airplane at that fuel flow. Plus, are you still shooting for 2300lbs? If so, what do you want to remove? Great work, keep it up!
Just need to look at similar sized canards like the Velocity V-Twin 3200lb MTOW and 320hp and if it burns fuel like the Piper Twin Comanche (10-15GPH) that would be what I would think this aircraft would require. Since it’s not set up for twin it’s going to need one of the lyco/conti large bore engines installed that also drink 15gph no easily.
Doubt that would be possible. 7gph is less then a lightly loaded 180hp Cessna uses at cruise and that aircraft has an MTOW of 2400lbs. Don’t see how a much larger aircraft with a dry weight of nearly 3000lbs would be doing anything under 15gph when equipped with adequate power.
What degree do the better aerodynamics play in this math?
neve1064 none. Will just results in a higher top speed for a given power setting. A 60%, 70%, 80%, 100% power settings are the same regardless of airframe since they are based on the engine output.
It’s like comparing the O-200 from a Cessna 150 to the O-200 found in the 300lb lighter Cessna 162 skycatcher.
Both can cruise at 5.5- 6gph on their 100hp O-200, but the C150 does is at 95kts and the C162 at 115kts.
You need a proper electrical conection rep full time.
mccallumcra, I offered but was told he wanted to tackle himself.
You'd need to be making ~460 hp to match the power to weight ratio of a Cessna 340, or you'd need to weigh ~2,000 pounds (you're going by empty weight here).
That’s a lot of GPH 🤑
@@Alex-us2vw Around 26-28 GPH, by my calculation, not too bad, but the engine would definitely have trouble producing that much power reliably.
The 3200lb MTOW Velocity V Twin that uses 2 IO-320 can do between 10-15 GPH. If that was upsized to the weight of the prototype Raptor of 3000lbs dry would need 2 IO-360 and be in the 15-25GPH range depending on power setting.
With a single engine config there will realistically be no way to surpass 400hp with piston single unless fitting an IO-720. At that power it’s into the small turbine range like a Rolls Royce M250 series turboprop. Would save a ton of weight going turbine, similar mid 20-25 GPH fuel burn, runs on significantly cheaper fuel, and much longer TBO times.
TheBrokenWorld an automotive engine would for sure struggle to produce +400hp continuously or even 60-70% of the rated power output. Would be running the engine at high rpm setting to hit the peak power output. To get 420hp out of the twin turbo BMW M3 engine would be around 6-7k RPM.
I don’t really understand why they are trying to use an automobile engine. When you run them at 60%-100% continuous power settings like an aircraft engine demands they drink fuel just as fast as similar HP aircraft engines. Add in the additional weight of radiators, coolant, water pump and all the other parts not found on an air cooled aircraft engine and it really becomes a losing proposition. Then when you take into account getting maintenance or repairs done away from home base it would really become a nightmare.
@@Alex-us2vw Typically, I think that people are attracted to automobile engines because they're liquid cooled, don't require the user to adjust the mixture and are generally smoother in operation. What I don't understand is the attraction to diesels, they're just so heavy, even Cessna dropped them from their lineup because they reduced the usability of their aircraft so severely. I suppose that people are worried about the availability of avgas, but unleaded fuels will likely replace it, and automotive engines run just fine on unleaded. The performance increases that can be had with liquid cooling are significant, even Lycoming and Continental engines see significantly improved performance when they're liquid cooled. I remember seeing a Lycoming that was converted to liquid cooling and it had a BSFC on par with this diesel. Usually, the drag of the cooling system can be greatly reduced with liquid cooling (using the Meredith effect), but it doesn't look like these guys took advantage of that. Liquid cooled engines can also be lighter (largely because they can be pushed harder and made more compact), unless you're talking about air cooled engines that were converted to liquid cooling. Even the Continental Voyager engines were lighter than the air cooled engines that they were based on, but that was dry and without the radiator. Burt Rutan had some interesting observations about liquid cooled engines that are worth looking up.
I think that the RR 250 consumes about 50% more fuel than this engine, at least, and those are extremely expensive to buy.
Hey Peter my name is Ben and am new to your channel... I am a student pilot and have been contemplating what aircraft i would eventually want to own Guess what I love the Raptor and hopefully life's timing will be on my side and I will one day be able to begin the process of building my own Raptor... Where are you guys situated?
Highest Regards and Respect from Australia 🇦🇺🇮🇹
Midght need some aileron trim tabs?
I'm assuming someone has already asked this, but who is test-flying this baby?
Somebody asked...every week it seems for the last year or two.
@@jasondendinger9861 And the answer is?
Answer is: they have a pilot lined up but not divulging who yet.
Second
First!