CBN Wheels a scam? - what wheel grit should you sharpen lathe tools with
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- čas přidán 14. 01. 2023
- Discuss the disadvantages and disadvantages of CBN sharpening wheels. Are other sharpening wheels adequate for turners? Does a gouge sharpened with 600 grit cut better than one sharpened with 80 grit wheel?
Edit: The CBN wheel system in 2023 is in the $550-650 range plus the sharpening jig system. I mentioned $1,000 in video and that was me having a bad memory. I did remember correctly that it was a lot of money!
Recently retired 50 year toolmaker/precision grinder hand here.
Just a few tips -
Sintered (stone) wheels for steel.
CBN for steel.
Diamond for carbide, do not sharpen carbide with CBN.
Grit size is probably not critical for your application, something in the middle will give you the best compromise between material removal and surface finish. 600 is kinda fine IMO
Sintered wheels allow very aggressive cuts, you can hog out material very aggressively with these wheels.
CBN wheels are limited to VERY light cuts, when grinding tough steels the rule is hog down with a sintered wheel, but because you will just beat your head against a wall trying to get that last .002 off with these wheels, finish off with CBN.
If you try to take .0005 of with a sintered wheel, you will just heat the part up.
With CBN it will take
The .0005, but that would be the most depth of cut you could take.
My point is use CBN to just lightly hone the edge very carefully.
CBN are difficult to true up and you don't want to abuse them and have to clean them and re true them if you can help it.
I really only have valuable experience when it comes to sharpening lathe turning tools on grinders. You have way more experience than me! Thanks for the tips.
thank you, (i'm an old retired mold maker) i was trying to figure out how to say that, don't use HHS with a diamond wheel was what i was gonna say, but you put it way better.
What is a mold maker? I’m curious
@@woodworkingmcdanielstyle it's a segment of the tool and die trade. we make molds for various things, injection and compression molds for plastic and elastomers are probably the most common. though i used to make some molds for abrasive grinding applications as well. the steels are usually pretty good metallurgy but not always. plastic is pretty abrasive and hard on a mold. since i retired i keep busy (and out of the wifes way) building stuff for lab research projects. little stuff, i'm working on a potato shear tester now, and no i have no idea why they want to measure that. well actually i can see some reasons, like for shipping and packing perhaps. i really have no idea. but i'm fine building the parts that hold the potatoes for them. it a 2 holer so to speak, it does a potato on each side of the deal, so maybe they are comparing various varieties maybe?
Thanks for the explanation. A trade I have little knowledge in. Meet some neat people on here. And maybe they want to see which potato makes the best French fry…who knows
Been hunting for exactly this information for over an hour. Just needed someone to explain these wheels. I have the same system but have been hand sharpening for years because I'm afraid my wheel on my low speed rikon is too aggressive. This explains what I needed to know and I think I'm gonna give it another go. You got a new subscriber today. Thank you for the content.
Glad it was helpful to you. Thanks for the feedback and the subscription!
CBN 650 grit is not fine. It's a medium grit. I have up to 10,000 grit here. Softer steels do not gum up cbn wheels. It is worse that that. the soft steel catches the grit and imbeds it into the steel matrix and literally pulls it out of the surface of the wheel. A huge No-No!!!
KnifeMaker
As a beginner, I found this video ticked the boxes and answered so many questions regarding sharpening that I have been struggling with around the appropriate grits for my simple bench grinder, Thank you from Downunder.
I am glad it was helpful and thanks for commenting. It is pretty cool to reach people in Australia. Let me know if there are any other topics or videos you would like to see or if I can help out in any way.
After some 30 years, I still consider myself a "pretty good beginner", and now that I'm a "Pensioner", I find I have a bit more time to muck around out in my "shop", which is why I'm currently replicating the "Wolverine Sharpening System". It's a great concept, but not rocket science.
I bought an off the shelf bench grinder from Sears some time way back in the beginning (1992, maybe?) back when there was such a thing as "Sears" in Canada, and they sold half decent tools. Anyhoo, I've always taken a bit of a sideways view of the whole CBN thing. I'm just too bloody cheap to drop a G note on a means of sharpening tools. And ya, I have a few jigs and such, because I'm a bonehead, so I need to know what the proper angle is, and I do seem to be able to get my tools plenty sharp. But as you say, no soft metal, so I'd still need the grinder to sharpen the blade on the lawnmower.
It's whatever works, and makes you happy. Carry on! Oh and, I appreciate the honesty. Got no time for BS.
“Pensioner” lol I’ve never heard that term but I like it. I’ll never get rid of the stone grinder for the reasons you mentioned. Lawn mower blades, grinding bolts, and who knows what else I might tinker with. They say you can use products that allow me to use soft metals on my CBN wheels but the risk is not worth me finding out if those products work. I will probably never graduate beyond the “pretty good beginner” level but I can make some nice things and I enjoy letting the shavings fly! Thanks for the feedback!
Hey man this was nicely thought out and made, great tone great points with great purpose and application. I'm a woodworker and you got my sub.
I appreciate the feedback and thanks for subscribing Jeff :)
Based on personal experience, I agree with the points you are making.
I am a novice wood turner and an experienced wood worker. I have a regular Craftsman 8" grinder for general use and I have Rikon slow-speed 8" grinder with the stock 80/120 grit wheels that I use exclusively for my wood turning tools. It is an excellent grinder and the stock wheels work great. Just use a light touch when sharpening your tools and keep the the wheels clean and true.
The biggest improvement in sharpening for me was the Wolverine sharpening system. It is excellent and allows rapid, repeatable sharpening of various grinds. An excellent investment. An excellent value.
I cannot bring myself to invest in CBN wheels. It seems to me that the main advantage of a CBN wheel is (1) that it will be less likely to overheat the steel in a tool that is being sharpened, and (2) it will come perfectly balanced. These are relevant points. (And regular grinding wheels last a long time, as well, just as long as you don't do metal working for a hobby or a living.)
On the other hand, using a standard wheel, one can avoid overheating steel by just slowing down and using a lighter touch. Furthermore, as a novice wood turner, a CBN wheel will not improve my wood turning, because I will not be able to tell the difference. if there is a difference.
For an experienced wood turner, I assume, using either a "stone" wheel or a CBN wheel will simply not make a difference. Both will work fine. For touching up an edge while turning, a hand-held diamond plate works just fine, too.
Your point about using regular grinding wheels on "standard" (non HSS) steel, aluminum, brass, etc., is spot on. A normal shop will need a regular grinder for many of the things that most wood workers use them for, which include (1) grinding and shaping a lot of stuff you do not want to use a CBN wheel for, and (2) a honing wheel for final sharpening on knives, chisels, plane blades, etc.
I'd rather use the money ($300-$400) I save by using standard grinding wheels and use it to buy shop supplies, etc.
One person's opinion, for what it's worth.
Very good video. Thanks!
Thanks for the comment Jerry. I think we have come to similar conclusions. I will say the CBN wheels are perfectly balanced but if they are not mounted perfectly on the arbor, you cannot balance them. This was more difficult and more annoying than I expected. Whereas a stone wheel you could quickly balance with a diamond tool I mentioned.
I agree that you don't have to spend big bucks on sharpening. I bought a second-hand Ryobi grinder for next to nothing, bought a second-hand 80 grit CBN wheel from another turner, and made the "Wolverine" holder for the gouges from plans by another CZcamsr. I just purchased a grinding platform from TayTools off Amazon. I made the bar to hold the wolverine from wood. Total cost: grinder $75, CBN wheel $50, holder $0 scrap wood, and platform $50. So maybe $175 so far and various fasteners and scrap wood.
Your effort saved some dollars to use on other toys…I mean tools to play with. Thanks for the feedback!
You sound like me. I love making things. One of the first things I made with my first lathe was another lathe.
I have been turning as a hobby for about 10yrs. But I have sharpened all of my chisels and gouges by hand until this past Christmas. I bought the Wood Turners Wonders Kodiak system and CBN wheels. I regret nothing. Haha
Honestly, the reason I didn't want to go with a traditional stone wheel for shop safety reasons. My wife is trying to get into it and I wanted something she could also use. The CBN wheels would never explode and are much safer and easier to use in general.
I wouldn’t say I regret it either although I had issues with the CBN wheels being balanced even though Wood Turners Wonders installed them with the balancing washers. I think you are similar to me in that we had both decided this was a hobby that was going to continue for years. But many beginners buy a lathe and then realize they need tools $$ chucks $$ a sharpening jig $$ a grinder $$ etc. So just trying to let people know that less expensive options can still get you amazing results. Thanks for the feedback and hope you enjoy many more years turning!
I use a 1x30 belt sander with 320 grit silicone carbide belts for touching up the edge and 80 grit for shaping. No fancy grind system, just a little knife bevel jig that hooks on the platen and gives me angle control. Freehand sharpening isn't so hard as it is intimidating. My whole sharpening setup (machine,jig, and belts) is around $100. Been using it for a couple years with no complaints except the volume of the motor lol.
Great video pointing out that you don't have to spend a fortune to have fun. Turning is only as complicated as you make it. David Ellsworth turned massive hollow forms with a glue block and a sharpened Allen wrench lol. Good luck with your channel 👍
Never knew that about Ellsworth. Thanks for sharing! I’ve tinkered with some freehand sharpening and use my jigs to fix my screw ups lol. Glad you figured out how to sharpen on the cheap. Thanks for the support!
@@woodworkingmcdanielstyle No worries 👍, if you have an extra $30 I highly recommend Ellsworth's book on Woodturning. He shows all his old hollowing tools and shows how to make the ones he uses now. It's more biographical than instructional but still highly interesting as a woodturner.
I’ve been fabricating & repurposing steel for other needs about 55 years now. Sometimes i just want to buy a tool that was designed for the purpose I want to use it for 😂
Real talk. As a beginning hobbyist, I appreciate you. Going with the slow speed grinder for now. Have a good one!
Thank you John! I’m glad the video was helpful. Check out my fundamentals of wood turning playlist. Hopefully they will also be helpful as you learn to turn. And let me know if there is anything specific I can cover in a video that would be helpful.
Thanks for the sharpening info explanation, l’m wading through that bog at this time. This video is helping git to solid ground.👍🏻
You are welcome. Let me know if I can help with any clarifying questions.
That was a trip at the end to hear my name, McDaniel. Hadn’t noticed we have the same until then. Thanks for the info!
@KuponoMcDaniel hopefully I haven’t disgraced your good name :)
@@woodworkingmcdanielstyle LOL. in no way.
One thing a CBN wheel does is save metal on you traditional tools. You also aren’t continually resetting you’re varygrind jig to an ever shrinking traditional wheel. The CBN wheel also grinds much cooler , so the risk of bluing out you’re steel is decreased. I turn 8-10 hours a day and burn threw a Thomson gouge a year , so saving metal is a huge cost saver.
I’ve never had any issue with tool heat on my cheap slow speed grinder with stone wheels. I personally feel like my 120 grit stone wheel removes metal slower than my 180 grit CBN. I definitely would recommend upgrading to CBN wheels for someone turning 8 hours a day.
I've had a grinder for many years. I found out about the white wheels about a year ago. Just after that, I found out about the CBN wheels. I also looked into the wet sharpening systems. I got the Grizzly because of the stropping wheel on it. It does help polish the grittiness of the blade after sharpening. I may get into the CBN wheels with the wet sharpener to keep my tools from losing their temper.
Lots of good systems out there. Some people have been using something as simple as a belt sander for years with great results. If you know that this is a lifetime hobby, then upgrading your sharpening system is probably a good idea. The slow speed grinders make water unnecessarily and they also make sharpening slower. Slower to me is better because if allows us more control. And really most sharpening is just 10-15 second touch up. Thanks for the comment Rick and happy turning!
Very good, honest evaluation. I'm a beginner turner but I'm a veteran metal worker and fabricator so naturally I've made a lot of my own turning tools. I've looked at a lot of the sharpening systems but honestly I don't think I would use them if I had them. I've been sharpening drill bits and other cutting tools by hand for so many years it has become second nature for me but I certainly would not recommend it for everyone else.
Thank you sir. I sharpen most wood working tools by hand and I retouch the edge of my skew chisels by hand. I am not very skilled at hand sharpening the other turning tools. Eventually I think we all settle into “what works for me”. It took me several years to find out what that was
Great Video! Thanks for the knowledge! Roger
You are very welcome! Thanks for watching and i am active on here if you ever have any questions.
$1000 wow. Interesting information. Thanks for the tips on using CBN wheels. I haven't got any yet, I've steered away from them. I don't think I'll bother. Thank You. Tony
Yeah it was about $250 for the 1hp grinder (you could save $100 with 1/2 HP). The CBN wheels I got are $180 each plus tax and still need a sharpening jig. So my random rambling of $1,000 was a little high but the point is they are expensive lol. Thanks for the feedback.
Instead of spending that much for lower rpm's It looks like you could take a variac and power your regular grinder off of it. Then you take an rpm meter and figure out how much current you need to feed the grinder in order to get it to the speed you want the wheels to turn. You can buy a variac for less than $100 and they'll let you vary the current from 0-130v with a 20 amp output. I believe there's even an app for phones to show you the rpm's of most engines/motors.
Thanks for the feedback. This may be a good solution for others reading the comments.
Good review!
I sharpen all my woodworking tools on an extra extra coarse diamond bar, finess it on a whetstone.
All my woodturning tools get sharp on an inexpensive slow speed grinder. They get touched up on a tormek which keeps running all the time while I'm turning.
I thought about getting these diamond wheels, but I really don't see any advantage...
Thanks Jake. I use diamond bar and water stones for my other woodworking tools. I don’t have any experience with tormek but several comments have stated it gives great results. I appreciate the feedback!
Yes: CBN wheels might be much better. But more sore for the inventors pockets than the woodturners projects. What do they think we used before they were ever invented? Dollar for dollar, our works were just as good or better. Thanks for speaking up. You might not wind their sponsorships, but I'm sure you will score on subscribers.
Thanks Clyde. I’m not here to win sponsorships. Thanks for the support!
How often do you have to true up the grinding wheels on your 8" grinder? Such an informational video and just what I needed. I also do not have a club close by and am just learning. Do you have other videos for beginners on turning?
It’s a factor of how much sharpening you are doing. So you may go a day or a few weeks without needing to. You will be able to tell by how well the stone is sharpening. If it gets dark from metal load up and is not cutting, then a quick cleanup with a diamond tool is needed. Yes I have several videos for learning wood turning. I organized them in two playlists. One is titled “Wood turning fundamentals teaching series” and the other is titled “lathe tool sharpening series”. If you have any questions while watching please ask and give a time stamp if you are asking about a specific part of the video so I can help answer better. Thanks for watching!
Thanks for the video. I was wondering if the 160 grit wheel that WW recommends as one half of the pair would be aggressive enough for reshaping. Think I'll go that way due to your input.
Yes my father in law went with a lower grit and he is not happy bc it is too aggressive. So I think you will be happy the way you are leaning.
I've been on the fence about getting CBN wheels (I'm also just a hobbyist). I ended up getting a traditional bench grinder with the same wheels as the Powertec you have. You've at least convinced me that it's not necessary to get CBN wheels. Maybe if I make a lot of bowls and actually sell them, it might be worthwhile to get a wheel. I like the points you make about just touching up a tool with a high-grit CBN wheel and how that can preserve your turning tools.
So thanks for this honest review. Us turners aren't made of money!
You are welcome! There are so many accessories you need to buy and the grinder you have is definitely good enough…and you can always upgrade the wheels later. Thanks for watching and the support!
Thank you for clarifying this I've used regular stones for years like 50 plus I'm retired now thought I try one of these newfangled wheels and there isn't much information on the grit to use so I got an 150 and my opinion it's for changing the angle of a new chisel taking off a lot quicker it's aggresive and to much for turning after seeing your video I'm going to the 600 on the other side of my grinder now thanks again 👍
You are very welcome Jon. I think you will love the 600 for touching up your tools. 50 years of turning is awesome!
@@woodworkingmcdanielstyle started in high school and have my grandfather's 83 year old lathe that I use at least twice a week in the past now retired almost daily! Love tuning bowls on it!
I started in my young 30’s. I have 4 kids and I hope turning continues in our family like it has yours!
@@woodworkingmcdanielstyle hopefully my boy will but lately he's working a million hours trying to feed his family I hardly ever see him lately!!! But he does call a lot as my daughter to it's a crazy world nowadays!
New subscriber here, this is wonderful information....
very straight forward,
as someone whole mostly sharpens drill bits for metal working,
I find the information very useful....best regards from an old guy in Florida , Paul
Thanks for the feedback Paul and for subscribing. I know nothing about metal work or sharpening drill bits. I do sharpen my wood auger bits :). I’m located in southern, Ohio
@@woodworkingmcdanielstyle well, metal cutting tools are usually not as sharp as wood cutting tools, and have more robust edges...High Speed steel.. and carbide are the main alloys for metal cutting.....many beginners either use them too slow or too fast....too slow breaks them and too fast melts them......I lived in Columbus for many years, even went to Art School there, the first time I ever saw wood turning.....looking forward to watching more of your videos....best regards, Paul in Orlando, Florida...
You saved me a ton of money! Thanks for the honesty!!!!!!!!!
You are welcome! Let me know if I can help in any other way. I do have a sharpening playlist for wood turning tools and a fundamentals of wood turning playlist. You may find some nuggets of knowledge in those if the titles spark your interest. Thanks for the feedback!
My Dad made my Grinder; an old Electric Motor mounted on some wood, with a Light Switch, & a Collet on the shaft for the Grinding Wheel !
That will work just fine. Another guy in these comments uses a belt sander.
@@woodworkingmcdanielstyleI would love a CBN belt sander never looked it up yet, sounds like it would be great for tool making, what I like about my CBN is that any time I see a tool I know I can make it myself with the CBN in a short amount of time for fractions of the product cost. I'm making a $100 card scraper burnisher from a broken solid carbide router bit next for free and should take 10 minutes.
Lee Valley has 6" CBN wheels for $124 Canadian and the Wolverine jig is $99 and $59 more if you get it all. It's usually easy to find 6" grinders used too, I've gotten a 6" grinder free from the city dump before that had nothing wrong with it but that was luck and was a Remodeler so I was at the dump every week.
That’s awesome! I have bought many tools from Lee Valley over the years but I was not aware they sold CBN wheels. Glad people have another good option.
The belt sander they are using isn’t CBN. It’s just regular sand paper. I should make a burnished. I have been using a screw driver shaft.
Not sure where you are getting $1000 for the Ricon Grinder & 2 CBN wheels? You can get the complete Kodiak system with the CBN grinder set up for about $1000. The grinder & CBN wheels alone are $600 with the maximum mega square wheels etc. The other thing you forgot was that CBN wheels can't explode. They are well worth the money. A NEW turner that is trying to decide should bite the bullet and spend the money "once" and get the best set up.
Thanks for the feedback. The video description already has updated costs. That system there is about $700 plus the cost of the one way jig. The point is it cost a lot of money. I didn’t mention everything. CBN has less dust and won’t explode. Stone is easier to balance and creates a spark that comes over the edge when sharp. I actually miss that spark a lot. A lot of beginners just don’t have the money to splurge and will try to use dull tools. Trying to let them know it is not necessary to turn wood with amazing results.
Great video! One thing I’d add, the CBN runs much cooler, meaning far less concern for sneaking a hardened tool. The stone wheel requires constant coolant dipping, none for CBN. ALSO, CBN comes in shapes and allows side grinding which you cannot do with a stone wheel (at least with any pressure). That was a good point about soft metals! One still doesn’t want to grind Aluminum on even a stone wheel, but it is recoverable with a dressing tool, which CBN, not sure how you do that (maybe by grinding a hard metal?)
Thanks for the input. Yeah the side grinding on my CBN wheel and the radius corner can also be used for round nose scraper sharpening. Thanks for bringing up those points!
Like you, I started turning without the help of a club or mentor, so I've been turning for a few years with carbide tools. They were good way to get into the hobby without as much to learn, but I am interested in using more traditional tools as the carbide tools also have a lot of negatives. I am looking at turning tools and sharpening systems and, honestly, it really is feeling like the cost to get the tools, the grinder, wheels, and a sharpening system is overwhelming and perhaps prohibitive.
I understand. Probably at least $300 to get a grinder and a sharpening jig. You have to have it to use HSS tools. You really don’t need that many tools depending on what you want to turn. Bowl gouge is needed if you want to do bowls or platters. Spindle turning can be done with a cheap skew, cheap parting tool, and a detail spindle gouge. The skew and parting tools are abundant used. A good detail and bowl gouge may be harder to find used. A roughing gouge is nice for spindle turning but you don’t have to have one. There is nothing wrong with carbide tools as long as you are ok with more sanding. The goal is to make things you are satisfied with and enjoy doing it. If you don’t have the money now then I would just wait and maybe you can find a good deal as you wait. Good luck and I’m here if you have questions along the way.
@@woodworkingmcdanielstyle Thanks! DO you know how important speed is on CBN wheels? I saw a deal on a variable-speed grinder, but it's minimum speed was 2000 rpm, a bit higher than most low-speed grinders.
@fretless05 I think the wheels will be fine at 250 more rpm. Just know that the wheel will grind metal away from your tools a little faster.
I have been using 80 grit on a belt sander for many years works great don't over think it
Absolutely. Several others have mentioned this belt sander setup with great results. Thanks for the comment Cliff
Thanks for sharing this information.
You are very welcome Jean. Let me know if I can provide any other content that would be helpful.
Do you find any difference in how frequently you need to touch up the edge, between the CBN and the white wheels?
I haven’t recognized any discernible difference. It’s very possible there is a difference but it definitely doesn’t stand out as noticeable.
Great video. Can you tell me if the standard diamond 800/888 4148 d120 r100 wheel is a good choice for sharpening lathe tools? I'm a bit confused by them.
Thank you! I tried to research that diamond wheel but not having much luck. If you have a link to the specific wheel, I will look at it and give my opinion. I did watch a few CZcams videos discussing diamond wheels and they both mentioned that diamond wheels require a coolant bath if you are sharpening carbon steel. Our lathe tools would be carbon. If that’s true, Cbn would be a far better way to go. From my watching it sounds like diamond would be the superior wheel for sharpening carbide tools. Hope that helps
Thank you for your reply and it is very helpful. I searched and couldn't find any info about the wheel either but your guidance toward the cbn and mention of a cooling bath is the decider.
You are welcome!
I use 80 and 180 CBN wheels on my Thompson and other tools and never thought I needed any higher grit. Two more grits are two more opportunities to screw up your profile
I agree you don’t need higher. I do find the higher grit makes it harder to mess up the tool profile. The 600 grit is super slow at removing material so it helps eliminate user error. But if you are just touching up the tool edge without changing the profile, the 600 grit is really nice in my opinion. I think we can all adjust and get good results no matter the grit being used.
Super helpful....thank you.
You are welcome! Always here if you need any help. Thanks for watching and the encouragement
Thanks for the honest review
You are welcome! Like your name. Check out the 2 minute pipe video I made. You might like that design.
Thanks for this video. I agree with you. Like so many of us, over time, I have gone through many of the sharpening system iterations: high speed grinder with gray and then white wheels, water wheel, belt sander, honing, handmade sharpening jigs and finally slow speed grinder and commercial jig with CBN wheels. I liked each one of them at the time. It's a journey, really. I think eventually we all prefer to turn, with sharpening a means to an end. So, the grinder closer to the lathe, the more frequent sharpening, and the more expedient the better.
You are welcome Charlie. More time making shavings is the key :)
I agree 100% (I almost made that exact point in my comment and then hit delete)
Interesting point about not seeing a whole lot of difference in tool sharpness between the different grit wheels. I just paid about $1,100 for pretty much the same setup. Same 1 HP Rikon grinder and same CBN wheels. Except the sharpenning jig is a Kodiak (from Woodturners Wonders) instead of the Wolverine. One thing that sold me on the CBN system is that they never shrink in size like "stone" wheels do as they wear out. So once you set up your sharpening jig you (in theory) should never have to mess with it again. Sure hope it was worth the dimes. Should be getting it tomorrow...
Hopefully they last as long as advertised. Let me know how you like the Kodiak jig if you get the chance. I do think you will like that 600 grit wheel
@@woodworkingmcdanielstyle I haven't gotten to the point of actually using the Kodiak yet, but a few points I'm noticing on the downside... #1; The little "foot" that's supposed to clamp the lathe tool into the jig actually fell off! i.e. The machining on the end of the tightening screw must have been just slightly under the 1/4" diameter of the bearing it slides into. A wee bit dissapointing considering the base alone cost $430! #2; The fact that the mounting base raises the grinder 4 1/2" is a bit of an issue. In my tiny shop there's only limited places to put the grinder and they're all a bit high to begin with and there's nowhere to put a stand-alone base if I made one for it. Which leads to #3; The Kodiak is built in such a way you can insert the jig into the backside of the base if you want to sharpen with the wheels spinning in reverse. Nice idea but since I'll have to mount the thing on a "wall" bench there's no way to access the rear side of the grinder. However... Having said all that the main thing is (once I work out where to put it) does it work as advertised??? Haven't gotten that far yet but I'll let you know!
Thanks for the feedback. I have a cabinet above my grinder so I also would have issues with raising it 4 inches. Good luck figuring out a solution to access the reverse sharpening option.
@@woodworkingmcdanielstyle I'm already in the process of dreaming up a solution involving a high quality, heavy duty "lazy Susan"! I'm one of those guys who gets way more enjoyment out of creating jigs and dreaming up solutions to make life easier and more efficient in the shop than doing the actual work!
I wrote up a reply asking if an industrial grade lazy Susan might work. I deleted the comment because I thought it might sound corny lol. Great minds thinking along the same lines
when grinding tool bits the disadvantage of stone wheels is the heat produced and having to dip the bit in water- the other disadvantages of stones wheels is that they can shatter and need wheel guards-and lastly you can not use the side of the wheel as you can on cbn wheels. The issue with gumming up on softer metals is not a problem as they sell a stick which ungums the wheel. I personally think the advantages of cbn wheels are tremendous.
Thanks for the feedback Joel. With a slow speed grinder, I’ve never had any tool heat up and I’ve never had to use water. Yes I failed to mention the safety risks of stone wheels compared to CBN. I’ve luckily never experienced it but it’s worth mentioning. Others mentioned the slick stick so that you can use softer metals. I was unaware of this product when I did the video. I’m still not sure I will ever use it though. I’ll probably just keep my CBN’s for HSS tools and use my stones for other metals.
I use a Cbn wheel to sharpen my wood turning tools. I keep a bottle of paraffin oil and a rag to instantly clean the black metal deposits from the wheel. My Tormek turns 90 rpm, so I can clean the wheel while it is running.
You use the Tornes for other wood working tools?
You're honesty is appreciated 🔨🔨🔨🔨🔨🔨
Thanks for that comment Gene!
What do you mean saying slow speed gringer, how many RPM? I have CBN 320 and use it with grinder working at 2800 RPM speed. I feel it's too much, it's hard to explain, I just don't feel I fully control it. I guess slower speed would be better.
The slow speed grinders turn at 1,750 rpm. I would think slower would help you gain some control.
When is your next video dude I don’t know if I can wait!
Thanks for the support! I’m working another about turning handles
The issue with these cheap grinders, and that seems to cover just about everything you can easily buy online, is wobble.
That may be the case but my dad and I have had good luck with this power tech model after truing up the stones. Maybe we got lucky.
you forgot to mention the stone wheels getting smaller as you true them up. thats why i have both as you do.
Yeah I failed to mention that. Thanks for pointing it out in the comments and thank you for watching!
Another good video! What brand of cbn wheels do you have?
I got mine from wood turning wonders. Honestly don’t know if they are as good or better than other brands. If interested I would shop around and see who has the best value today.
@@woodworkingmcdanielstyle Thanks. I was just curious. I’m happy with my regular stones for now but may upgrade in the future!
Also what’s the advantage of having a one horse motor vs the half horse if it’s slow speed
@@j.d.mcdaniel3145 1 HP motor gets the heavy CBN wheels up to speed (1800 rpm) faster than the 1/2 HP grinder. So less standing around time watching the grinder get the wheels up to full speed. Both motor sizes are more than strong enough to spin the wheels and remove metal. Since sharpening is done with a very light touch. The motors are never bogged down and overworked.
The finer git will get the tool sharper (on the Sorby Pro Edge you can buy 3000 grit belts that will get a slew so sharp you can shave with it - this also makes it good for carving tools). HOWEVER, when sharpened with anything over 180 grit, you're polishing the individual grains of steel that make up the tool and very tip is going to be so thin that it will crumble away very quickly. Despite Sorby making belts that go to 3000 grit, they don't recommend sharpening turning tools to anything above 180. I don't see any real harm in using a 600 grit wheel, but after your first couple of seconds in contact with the wood, it's likely to be no sharper than if you'd used the 180.
I think that’s what is going on. With knives and planes and wood working chisels the sharpness lasts longer because you are not cutting a thousand feet of wood per minute. On the lathe, your tool edge can be cutting well over 100 feet in 5 seconds. So the extra sharpness is short lived. That’s my non scientific theory lol
I have the ProEdge and, as a fairly new turner I find it incredibly easy to use. The recommended belts for turning tools are 60 grit for re-shaping and 120 grit for sharpening. I bought the deluxe version that came with all the jigs for skews, gouges (including long and extra long grinds) etc. This is not a cheap option but cheaper than a CBN + Wolverine jig setup or a Tormek. As Steve says, the higher grit belts are for non-turning edge tools, knives etc. Most belts are relatively cheap (except the diamond one) and very quick to change.
Thanks for the feedback. How long do you think the belts will last? I would guess several years for a hobby turner?
@@woodworkingmcdanielstyle I’ve had mine for about six months and I’m still on the original set of belts. In that time I’ve re ground and sharpened all my own tools and also some belonging to my local men’s shed.
There is a wide range of belts, aluminium oxide, zirconium, ceramic, trizact and diamond and in a range of grits from 60 to 3,000 (not sure about the diamond belt). Once you have the basic machine it is easy (and quite cheap) to “experiment” with different belt media and grit size. I use zirconium belts for my HSS turning tools and find the 120 grit belt to be all I need for quick sharpening.
@@woodworkingmcdanielstyle it really depends on how often you go into the workshop and turn. I always sharpen all my tools before I start a new project (regardless of whether I used it last time, because I don't keep track) and, depending upon how big the project is and what wood I'm using, if I feel it starting to lose the edge, mid way through. I'd say one belt is good for 15-20 projects - but that's not sharpening one tool: I'm talking about a couple of gouges, a couple of scrapers, a parting tool, etc). So for me, that would work out at a new belt (for less than a fiver) every 6-8 months. Frankly, I think that's almost certainly throwing out belts early, but by then they are certainly not going to be cutting like a brand new 120 grit.
Hello, they have another advantage but not much of a considération for woodturning i Guess : They don't heat much carpenter's tools. Have you Anya opinion or conclusion on this point? Thx
With the slow speed grinders, I’ve not noticed major heat build up on CBN or regular stone wheels. When I’m removing lots of metal to change the bevel angle, my tools get warm on both wheel types but nothing that would change the temper. I have no experience using either wheels on a regular speed grinder. It’s possible there is a noticeable difference in that scenario. If I’m just touching up the cutting edge there is no heat buildup on either wheel type. I would do some more research on your specific application because my knowledge and experience is mainly lathe tool related. Hope that helps…thanks for the comment.
@@woodworkingmcdanielstyle Hello thanks for your answer.
Sage advice , Especially from a hobbyist viewpoint
Thank you
can you use a cbn wheel on a 3500 rpm wheel for sharpening just knifes?
The consensus from my reading is yes you can. The downside side is it removes metal much faster which you might not see as a problem.
@@woodworkingmcdanielstyle could you change grit to a higher grit like a 320 or 600 to lower that problem? Instead of the normal 180 people normally use. Also thank you for the reply.
@gokrisgaming yes. Wasn’t sure if you were shaping knives or just sharpening. I have 180 and 600. If you are sharpening then I would lean toward the 600. But if you need to remove metal I would go 320 or 180. And you are welcome!
"It's not the sword. It's the Swordsman." - Albert Einstein
Absolutely!
Well said. Like any tool. I haven't heard that one before.
What grits of white wheel would you recommend and do you have to have the white wheel?
The stone wheels seem to be less aggressive than the CBN wheels of the same grit. The 120 grit white wheel is used by most people and they are very happy with it including me. The 80 grit wheel is really just for reshaping tools. You can reshape on the 120 but just takes longer. So you will use the rougher grit seldom and use the higher grit stone frequently. And no I don’t think a white wheel is absolutely necessary but an aggressive stone will shorten the life of your tools which adds up to $$ eventually. Hope that helps and makes sense.
@@woodworkingmcdanielstyle thank you so much! I subscribed to your channel
You are very welcome and thank you for subscribing!
I thought I only need a lathe :(. I got the lathe, then i needed a bowl clamp. Then i Needed the grinder, now i need the sharpening system...oh my god. i should've watched these videos befoe getting the lathe...but this is great, thank you for making this. Edited to add, that I appreciate your comments on the CBN wheel. I got a cheap Wen sharpener with the white wheels so i'm really glad you mentioned this and that' ll be just fine with the cheaper wheels.
My wife was laughing at this comment. I think she remembered the same thing when I bought a lathe! Yes the Wen grinder will be fine and would not be top on my list of upgrades. I’m curious about your screen name. Is that a skying reference or are you losing dad skills? Thanks for watching!
@@woodworkingmcdanielstyle I meant to respond to you. I actually found your video from a link you gave me to my post on a facebook group about getting started, so thanks again for the link and the videos. To response to your question, I actually created this to post downhill mountain bike videos. I got really into downhill few years ago, but with family obligations couldn't do it as much as i wanted. SO the name remains, the content doesn't exist. But i still try from time to time. I like to think i'm managing as a dad! I started showing my 11 yr old how to use the lathe(blind leading the blind)
Ah! I am in southern Ohio near Zaleski state forest and Lake hope state park. I guess we have some awesome mountain biking trails. I watched some guys on CZcams doing some insane speeds down them! I took my son with me once and we both crashed several times and barely made it back alive. So I gained new respect for people’s mountain biking skills. If I can help with the lathe in any way just let me know. My videos are normally things I used to struggle with or things I’m seeing on social media that people are struggling with.
@@woodworkingmcdanielstyle oh ok cool, i'm in western NC, outside Asheville. We have a ton of mtn biking in the area but not much pure downhill, i've traveled outside the area, out to west virginia for some really epic riding and i love it, it's a blast. But i;m too old to do the crazy stuff some of these guys do. They;re amazing.
As far as the lathe, i think i messed up buying a very old one cause I can't find attachments. I got a 1987 buffalo. Its variable speed, but it's manual, i have to physically move hte belts between wheels, which isin't a huge deal, but just not easy. But the biggest problem is i can't find a bowl clamp to fit the spindle. I THINK it's a 5/8" 12 TPI thread and i can't find any adapter to fit it. Maybe you have some suggestions?
Beautiful area to live! I grew up camping in the WV mountains. That is an odd size for a chuck adapter. Maybe call oneway and see what the tpi is on this adaptor.
oneway.ca/products-category/adaptors/Stronghold-Adaptors/5-8-Plain-Stronghold
Another guy said this company would make any adapter you want…?
bestwoodtools.store.turbify.net
This thread is exactly your lathe and the same topic.
ncwoodworker.net/forums/index.php?threads/problem-getting-a-chuck-to-fit-a-lathe.54093/#post-494950
I use CBN to sharpen carbide metal tooling. All of my woodworking hand tools are sharpened with conventional AO grinding wheels.
No need to use a hammer to swat flies.
The best application for CBN/diamond wheels, are low-speed wet grinders... and I don't mean your typical "low speed" 1,000rpm bench grinder. I mean professional wet sharpeners that turn 100/200rpm (Tormek/etc.). These sharpening rigs are far better suited to chisels, plane blades, etc... where precision and tool life are paramount.
When you're spinning 1,000+rpm and you just want to touch-up some turning tools, there's really no point.
Yeah I never sharpen my chisels and plane blades on these “slow speed” grinders. I sharpen those by hand with water stones.
@woodworkingmcdanielstyle - best way to go, for sure... but things happen, and sometimes you been to remove a lot of material, especially to bed or face your rough planes. A wet CBN/diamond wheel is great for that.
@driverjamescopeland that would be great. I have a granite table machined flat and I use that with wet sand paper to flatten planes. Luckily I rarely do this and I think (probably not) I finally have all the planes I need lol
I never thought that either would make the tool sharper than the other, but the advantages for me, for CBN is, they don't wear and get smaller, no cloud of dust truing up the wheel, doesn't generate heat and ruin the temper of the tool, you can use the side of the wheel which you should never do with a stone wheel, and I regrind screwdrivers all the time with no problem. But if cost is the main factor, then save the money and at least get something that will sharpen.
I’ve read articles from professional wood turners that stated CBN was necessary to sharpen VM-10 tool metal to its potential because stone wheels cannot sharpen the tiny carbide particles. May be true but I can’t notice a difference. The side of the wheel is an advantage I failed to mention. I’ve personally never had tools get hot using either CBN or stone wheels. I thought I covered the stone wheels getting smaller but for most turners, that will never be an issue. I turned several hundred hours a year for multiple years and I doubt the diameter changed more than 1/8 inch. And several comments have mentioned using a slick stick to protect CBN wheels from softer metals. I know my father in law ruined his CBN wheel very quickly. Do you know of a method to clean it up and fix it?
@@woodworkingmcdanielstyle You mentioned Woodturners Wonders. The owner Ken has a video on his site that talks about that. He takes an old drill bit, and pushes it hard into the wheel to get out metal lodged in the wheel. The slick stick is great for the bottom of a hand plane, but I did not have good luck with it on the CBN wheels.
Thanks I’ll let him know to look that video up.
Remember, Heat is not your friend. Cut with low grit to shape to avoid heat build, refine and edge on the higher grit.
I agree. I was too lazy the other day to move the jig to the lower grit side for a minor reshape. I regretted that bc the 600 grit doesn’t even make minor changes well. It’s great for edge refining and tool preservation.
What speed are these “low-speed” grinders you have?
1,750 RPM. The regular grinders are like twice as fast. Hope that helps
Interesting video. How about a series on one tool in each video,what it does, what it doesn't do, the angle to use it at, it would be very good for those interested but maybe a bit intimidated. Three to four minutes each tool and maybe at the end a quickie practice cut for confidence. Everyone seems to go straight into a project beyond the scope or capability of the very early stages starter
That sounds like a great idea. I will give it an attempt. Thanks for the feedback Chuck.
Then there is me who sharpens on a 1x30 HF belt grinder. Got the Ellisworth diy jig(from Eddie Castelin vid) and the varigrind jig. 100grit for grinding and 600 for honing. Costs less than my m42 cryo bowl gouge, but 5 seconds on the grinder and my gouge is razor sharp ready for finish cut, or roughing cut, and barely any material removed. I'm thinking of upgrading to a bigger belt sander though, I can add a platform to it and I won't need to re-attach the platform for sharpening scrapers, which is the only downside of the system I use
You are not alone. Several have commented using similar systems. I’ve learned a lot from Eddie over the years!
@@woodworkingmcdanielstyle Yeah, it's the thing that I had at the time when I first started, and I thought, well do I need to drop a few hundred to get me going now or can I make this work. And then it worked so good that I figured does it need fixing if it works?
Probably not unless you just want to tinker with a new setup.
@@woodworkingmcdanielstyle So one thing I found that may be a little hard on the belt sharpening system is making bowl gouges with really large swept back wings.
To make them originally or still hard to do just touching up the edge?
That diamond dresser makes an appalling dust mess. I bought a cheap grinder that happens to run true. I use a diamond disc on it and mount the grinder on its side. Total cost £25. It works well and fast with water on it for all my cutting tools. No guards I’m afraid so there is a health and safety issue, but for me a rotating disc at the right speed is safer than a grinding wheel.
I bet that works good for plane blades also. I was just looking at one of those online today and I do see the potential. As long as you are getting a new edge that works for you. And yes the dresser does make a dusty mess!
I mostly use it for planes and chisels. It works a treat. I have another workshop and I have a Worksharp. Same thing only proper. 2 minutes to resharpen a chisel or plane iron always at the same angle. I have a diamond disc in it. I buff the blades afterwards. Just pay up with no regrets. Sharpening then stops being a drawn out bore and gets done much more frequently. Forget honing guides and rulers and water everywhere and getting the angle wrong or overheating. It takes longer to walk over to the Worksharp than get the chisel touched up. I try to copy this freehand with my diamond disc and bench grinder. Ok but not quite as good or as safe.
I may be jealous. I have a shop I don’t keep heated and I sharpen planes and chisels on water stones. So I do it in my heated house…not nearly as convenient!
I have the exact same set up as you including the separate grinder with the AO wheels. I have a farm so my shop is woodworking on the one side and mechanic shop on the other. I also have the one way system. There are a few things I don't think you mentioned. My cbn wheel set up is on the the woodworking side. Reason being is that when I am grinding for mechanical work often I am shaping something and don't want to use my cbn wheels for that. Also other people besides myself use the mechanical side of the shop. I just really don't care what they do on those wheels. I have the wire wheel and polishing wheels with that machine. The big issue with those wheels is heat and the fact that you need to keep the guards and safety features on. I don't care if people wreck those wheels but they are unsafe and you need to protect yourself. I have the 80 grit rounded edge wheel and the 360 grit square edge. Both wheels are not even close to a real 80 or 360 grit. I think the 80 is about 120 or even 150. The 360 is probably about 450. I agree with you though if you are sharpening something you are particular about then I would stay away from using any wheel altogether. All my chisels, knives and planes are done on the veritas jigs. You can put a nice edge on a knife or chisel with the wheel but it just is not as pretty and imho it is just removing too much steel. When I sharpen with a jig it is a consistent edge from front to back and I can hit a very precise angle for the main bevel and for the microbevel. Woodturning tools are a lot of steel and are meant to be sharpened a lot. The oneway jig pretty much guarantees a nice consistent grind. Even if it didn't I wouldn't care. The bottom line is that the CBN wheel will not distemper your steel unless you grind in one place for a really long time. On the AO wheels you have to watch your heat. There is just a lot more to think about. I could do a mower blade on an AO wheel but man it would get hot. Reason being is that mower blades typically get really beat up. With a CBN wheel I can lay a new edge on the blade and never even think about heat. But the precision of a knife, a chisel or a plane is not very easily achievable. I think the reason that the tormek works well on those tools is it has a water bath and is running much slower and of course tormek has jigs for all the different tools. I can put a beautiful edge on any knife, chisel or plane in about 10 minutes with the veritas jig. If the tool just needs a touch up I can often get away with just stropping it. If you strop all your tools before you use them(other than lathe tools) they may never even need a sharpening stone. If you just want a good sharp edge and are not concerned how your edges look, then CBN wheels are the way to go. If I had to pick one I would pick the square edged 360 wheel. The flat side can flatten the back of your chisels and your plane blades which is something that I do from time to time when restoring an old tool. I will flatten the back on the 360 cbn wheel and then put a new edge on it in the veritas jig. The 360 wheel is aggressive enough to handle a mower blade and subtle enough to put a nice edge on anything. But if someone hands you their $500 pocket knife to sharpen, I think they will be happy with the edge and horrified by how it looks. Can you get good enough with it to put a professional looking edge on a tool? I would say no but you would be a hell of a lot closer than an AO wheel. Just my take.
Thanks for the input Paul. I totally agree about sharpening knives and other wood working tools. I have grown to love regular old water stones for planes and chisels. I do hate having to let them soak in water but I enjoy sharpening by hand in that slurry. I have a jig (it may also be Veritas). I know Lee Valley/Veritas has collected a lot of money from me over the years lol. I have several planes and some of their hand saws. I’ve been pretty pleased with the quality.
@@woodworkingmcdanielstyle While you can make cheap chisels and planes sharp they tend not to hold an edge as long. There are good planes and chisels that handle well and work well but Veritas and Lee Nielsen tools are works of art that just perform so beautifully. Worth the price in my opinion. Learning to sharpen is part of the two edged sword of woodworking. The other edge is accuracy. When we start out we think in millimeters and as you get better you begin to think in repeatable results. Same with sharpening. On a knife or a plane or a chisel I don’t want to Regrind an edge unless I have to. Just hit that microbevel and raise that burr and strop. Like you said it doesn’t really make a difference if you just use one stone and strop. The finer stones just clean up the finish. I’ll bet that 600 wheel can leave a nice glossy look on that edge.
Yeah I’ve regretted buying cheap tools but don’t regret buying quality tools. Exactly like you said, just hit that microbevel and strop.
I had no idea about cbn wheels, or the diamond wheel dresser lol.
Hopefully the video was helpful. Let me know if I can help in any way.
The Cubic Boron Nitride(CBN) coated wheels are specifically designed for grinding/sharpening tool steels such as HSS and high carbon tool steel in its hardened state. I have an 8" slow speed grinder with 80 grit and 180 grit wheels.
After using the CBN wheels for a few months I won't be going back to using conventional bonded abrasive wheels in a hurry.
I doubt I go back either. Just hope they last a long time!
You need to clarify, your $1000 system is mostly because of the expensive 1HP grinder motor, I have two 1/2 HP grinders one with 80 and 120 CBN wheels and the other with 320 and 600 CBN wheels the grinders were about $150 each and of course the cost of the Wolverine system.
Thanks for the comment Michael. Looks like my system today is $250 for the 1HP grinder (the 1/2HP is about $100 less) and about $170 for each CBN wheel I have. So I guess I misspoke on the $1,000 number. $600 would be more accurate plus the Wolverine or another type of sharpening jig. I think I have a pretty Cadillac system but for someone that rarely turns or is on a tight budget, I hope this video helps them be confident in less expensive options. I’m a bit jealous of your 4-CBN grits lol. Happy turning!
@@woodworkingmcdanielstyle No need to be jealous just after years of turning there always seems to be ways of improvement and spending, yet they call it a hobby, LOL.
My sharpener has a water bath works very good
I love my water stones for sharpening my chisels and hand planes. I just don’t keep my shop above freezing all the time so the water bath grinders are not the best option for me. Many others like you have given positive feedback on how well they work.
You can’t include the grinder or the varigrind in your cost difference when you are comparing grinding wheels. You aren’t comparing apples to apples. I feel like you are doing a disservice to novice turners, by misleading people into thinking they have to invest $1000+ dollars to get into CBN sharpening. Woodturnerswonders sells a spartan CBN for like $130.00 that will bolt right onto that cheap Amazon grinder. You can even use one CBN wheel, one aluminum oxide wheel and get the best of both worlds.
Thanks for the feedback. It was a cost difference. I gave the total cost to get everything. The point is a new turner has so many things to buy and CBN wheels are not needed. I’m so glad I got a second chuck or a better rest before I spent the money for CBN wheels. I’m ok if you do not share my opinion though.
LEENOBLE is right. You're comparing a $120 grinder with no sharpening jig system to a much more expensive grinder with the sharpening system and the cbn wheels. When the only price difference should be the wheels only. The cbn wheels and the jigs can be added to the cheaper grinder.
@keithrenaud3380 of course you can add CBN wheels to an existing grinder but I think you guys are missing my point. The CBN wheels, 1hp grinder, Oneway jig system is an awesome premium system. But when someone is just starting out they have so many things to purchase that are necessities and having a premium sharpening system is not one of them. The cheap grinder and stone wheels paired with a jig system will produce the same turning results and a beginner can use the dollars saved toward gouges, chucks, tool rests etc
@woodworkingmcdanielstyle I agree with you but at least add the jig system in the price comparison. Your videos makes it sound like you will get the same results without the jig system on the cheap grinder. That's all I'm trying to point out. I still liked the video.
@keithrenaud3380 my bad if that’s what comes across. It was not my intention to convey that point. Thanks for the comments. Hopefully the comments help clarify for watchers.
I regret going from a Tormek to a CBN, simple. I also regret getting the 180 grit wheel, it is too aggressive. I would recommend 240 grit.
Many comments have spoke highly of the Tormek. I agree the 180 cbn is too aggressive for touching up an edge. I do wonder if it will become less aggressive the longer we use it…but yes a 240 would definitely be aggressive enough from what I’ve experienced.
I believe your costs are way out of line. WW - 8 in slow speed Rikon with 80 and 120 grit CBN is $395.
80 for reshaping and 120 for sharpening is all you need. CBN never changes diameter so once you set your sharpening set up you never have to change it, and it stays flat and true. Not so with stone wheels that shrink and quite rapidly as you need constant dressing for good results,. Another con of stone is the toxic dust dressing causes along with the dangers of occasional shattering And you have to keep replacing them.. Scam is kind of a harsh word as it denotes misleading and malicious information which using CBN just isn't. Sharpening is one of the harder turning skills to learn and it is a disservice to influence newcomers to avoid CBN which actually makes the sharpening part of turning easier to master.. INMHO
The video description has the updated costs. I just remember it was expensive. That system is $650 plus tax at WW today. I’ll have to see if I can add a comment with the updated cost in the video. It’s true the CBN wheels are balanced but honestly they are not easy to get running absolutely true. WW installed mine and they were way out of balance. They still are not absolutely perfect. My stone wheels seem to be balanced perfectly after trying them up. You are correct with dust and I failed to mention that advantage. Thanks for the feedback Gary
K.I.S.S. Keep It Simple Stupid. Mount a chunk of wood and make something, even if you are just a scraper. The big thing is don't breathe the dust and wear a face shield. And always let the wood come to the edge!
I need to do better on the breathing dust part. Thanks for the reminder!
You make a good point. A few $$ on good lung and face protection outweighs the benefit of CBN w=hhels IMO.
Quite a bit of misinformation....
How so?