Players Who BELONG in the Conversation
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- čas přidán 5. 09. 2023
- A shortlist of the players who deserve to be recognized among the greatest ever.
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The game of Basketball has been my passion since I was 5 years old. I grew up as a kid watching my dad's recorded VHS tapes of playoff games through the 70s and 80s, and collected all the Basketball cards. Something about the game and what it represents just hooked me from a very young age.
My love for the game only continues to grow as time goes on. I love studying and analyzing the game, with an unbiased perspective. Feel free to subscribe, follow me on social media, and celebrate this amazing game and it's rich history with me!
I post videos every week on NBA history, predictions, hypothetical scenarios and current NBA topics.
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Who deserves to be in a specific conversation, but usually isn’t?
Prime T-Mac
Linsanity Jeremy Lin
Dennis Johnson is a FMVP and 3x champ but is almost never mentioned
Dirk Nowitzki as best PF bc his skillset is bigger than Tim Duncan his skillset. Also one of the most clutch players ever.
Prime Hakeem
Jerry West usually also gets forgotten by now, for point guards as well as shooting guards. Andy Hoops posted a similar video today where he went over a top 75 players list from 2004 (or 2003?). In that list, West is still listed in the top 10 players of all time. That might be a bit too high for my taste but I would feel uncomfortable putting him below the top 15.
i just finished watching that😂
Side note about that list:
It has a player on it who isn’t even in the Hall of Fame and wasn’t active at the time in Mark Aguirre.
@tationns Hell me to a few hours ago.. in 2003 that list looks so much different than now
my 1st thought
-- to simplify the GOAT list, I use this criteria: at least 2 MVPs and 1 FMVPs
That would qualify, Giannis, Lebron, Steph, Jokic to guys who already sit at the top: Bird, MJ, Kareem, Duncan.
It leaves out: Shaq and Kobe but they have multiple FMVPs and multiple chips so the list isn't perfect.
Moses Malone indeed is the most underrated Center of all time, He was such a rebounding and scoring beast!
How the 76ers traded him in the mid-1980's at his peak still baffles me.
With Barkley and Moses, you have a core front line here. And in 1986, I think the 76ers had the first pick which they could have used as a trade asset because they wouldn't have drafted Daugherty as they already had Moses. Perhaps trade down to get two first rounders in Chuck Person (Barkley would have OKed this because they were teammates at Auburn), Johnny Dawkins (The 76ers actually traded for him), and one second rounder in Jeff Hornaceck (which the 76ers traded for in the early 1990's).
Imagine this team in the 1980's:
C - Malone
PF: Barkley
SF: Person
SG: Hornaceck
PG: Cheeks (Dawkins to back-him up off the bench and eventually take over)
Perhaps trade Cheeks the following year to Indiana in exchange for Reggie Miller in 1987 and two future first rounders in 1989 (Smits) and 1990 (Dale Davis).
Facts
Better Chamberlain?
Note that Rodman is the only non center in top 5 rebounds
The only basketball CZcamsr still killing it even in the off season, nice one dude.
It’s interesting to see what videos that channels of a sport come up with in the off-season because aside from a couple transactions, there’s no season going on, and there’s no guarantee that everyone will discuss the same things.
No he isn’t. There’s plenty of them. He’s arguably the best tho.
Him and rusty are my favorite
That’s so cap….respect the love tho
Love johnny, but jxmy
For SF also one of the guys that could be talked more about is Elgin Baylor
Not enough winning holds him back. At a certain point, winning will hold u out of convos. Same with Karl malone
@@TheIcemanthomasTo be fair, Baylor was playing in an era dominated by Bill Russell's Celtics which is pretty much a superteam. Bill Russell is probably one of the few greats I respect despite playing in a superteam because it's hard to argue about the fact they won a double digit number of rings. No other team has done that regardless of whether they are a superteam or not. Karl on the other hand was playing during Jordan's era. Only Wilt and Hakeem led their respective teams during those eras. Wilt only won once and his second win was after Bill retired and leaving an aging Celtics. Hakeem only won back-to-back due to Jordan's first but short retirement.
The other small forward to add to the discussion is Elgin Baylor. People want to dismiss the 1960s for a variety of reasons, but there were quite a few superstars who made the league, so there was something that Magic and Bird could "save" in the 1980s. The five best from the 1960s make a really stacked line-up: Chamberlain, Russell, Baylor, Robertson, and West. All of them should be in the top-5 at their position.
I'll take that top 5 in their prime vs any team...
now that is an insane lineup! 100% oscar and jerry were simply sublime, putting them in the same backcourt should be illegal. :-)
Yes, I also was thinking that Baylor should be in the discussion with Dr. J. In my mind, James and Bird (in no particular order) are the clear top two, with Erving, Baylor and Durant (if we label him a small forward) fighting it out for the third spot. Then next on the list are my all-time favorite player, John Havlicek, and Rick Barry.
@@kevinhouse4376 This is why I prefer using 6 positions for player positions, which fits with the "guard / wing / big" split:
1: Stockton, Kidd
1-2: Iverson, Isiah Thomas, Steph
2-3: Jordan, Bird
3-4: Durant, Carmelo Anthony, Barkley
4-5: Duncan, Garnett, Russell [!], Hakeem [!]
5: Shaq, Kareem, Wilt
[There are a few who seem to be 'pure-2, pure-3, pure-4', like Reggie Miller, Dominique Wilkins, and Karl Malone.]
Making a line-up with these six positions, or five of them and a sixth man, makes things really interesting. For example, my all time best lineup:
Chamberlain, Russell, Bird, Jordan, Magic, & Lebron as the 6th man. With 240 player-minutes per game, each is in for 40 minutes. When Wilt sits [like never!], Russell slides to 5 and LeBron is the 4. When Michael sits, Larry slides to the 2 and Lebron is the 3. When Russell, Bird, or Magic sit, Lebron takes their spot as the 4, 3, or 1.
Back to the "left of the list" topic, I think this helps keep some players more visible. Someone like Thomas and Robertson get recognized for their versatility, while Moses Malone is more easily seen as an inside dominant threat. The Admiral and Ewing are two other "pure 5" players, also worthy of more consideration than they often get. As is James Worthy.
Elgin is great but he really can’t be in the convo without one ring.
In general people don't talk enough about Pistol Pete. He's in a class of his own in terms of most skilled, most talented, most innovative
Oscar Robertson was absolutely CHUCKED out of that conversation
A guy you can for the SG position is Jerry west, the only player to be a finals mvp on a losing, arguably created the Goat team and is literally the logo going to 7 nba finals definitely deserves recognition.
Some folks label Jerry West as a point guard, but I'm with you in considering West a shooting guard and placing him clearly third behind Jordan and Kobe and ahead of Wade. Heck, I wouldn't even argue if somebody wanted to place him right with Kobe rather than behind him.
West and Gervin and Thompson seem to be mostly forgotten for some reason
West gets plenty of recognition
@@mickidoesmediawell gervin never won, and Thompson is obvious. He didn’t play long enough before getting banned
@kevinhouse4376 I'm glad you agree. I believe he was the best player in the 60s
So glad you brought Dr. J some much needed recognition. I am obviously too young to have ever seen him play live, but I have watched many ABA & NBA highlights of him, as well as looked over his all time stats. His combined accomplishments rival those of Bird & Lebron, but because some of it was in the ABA, he's completely overlooked. Also, Zeke's 13.9 Assist average blew my mind. I knew he was a very good scorer and facilitator , but I never noticed he had an assist average THAT high before.
The score card doesn't tell you what you need to know about Zeke. You had to see how he handled the ball on every possession to understand what he brought to the game. He confused his defender with the way he could dribble the ball and move with it in traffic. His passing was on a par with Magic's, just not at as high of speed in a fast break type of game.
After 40 years plus, isn't time to give the Bad Boys narrative a rest? The NBA in era was trying to market itself after almost failing as a pro league at the end of the 1970's. Magic and Bird saved them. It gave the league a high talent white player in a blue collar basketball market. It gave him a rival in glitter town across the country in Magic with his magical smile and his unnatural ability to pass the ball. Mid decade they needed more, and put the Bad Boy label on the Detroit team to create a near Big Time Wrestling spin on pro basketball by creating everyone's villains in Detroit. If all Detroit had been is a goon squad, they would have occupied the bottom of the NBA standings for years. But if you look at Detroit's record for the decade, you find a team with a winning percentage over the Bird led Celtics, Magic led Lakers and the Jordan led Bulls. What other team did that? Lambier was not as much of an outlier to the way the game was played in the 1980's as his detractors want to make it look. Look at the play of the big men in Boston and show me the difference in the number of elbows thrown. Take a look at Charles Barkley on defense in the paint. That's a death match fight in there. Detroit put four guys on the floor that had this same tough guy idea about how they would play. They mixed in pretty, smart Joe Dumars just to make you think you had a chance. They were competitors, nothing worse.
Your videos are on another level…
I appreciate it!!
@@jonnyarnett PLEASE A VIDEO ON DREAM TEAM 2 (94 FIBA TEAM). PLEASE
I think one of the most understated centers is David Robinson. If you look at his advanced stats he would be a top 5 player of the post 70s, many of his years being a top 3 player. I think because of shaq and Hakeem he gets looked over. Also if they would have beaten the rockets, outplayed hakeem, and won the title in 95 it would have been a totally different convo
The Admiral was sooo 🧊. He was (physically+skill) the perfect basketball player. His only weakness was that he wasn't a true leader(good teammate) and didn't show up in the playoffs during big games and pressure situations. My h.s. coach used to call him the Tin Man, because he said "had no ❤️" He said that David Robinson was the best player in basketball HE just didn't know it. But athleticism+skill he supposed to be in the Goat conversation or top 5 at worst
That dude could go coast to coast like a guard. There's a clip of him stealing the ball from Jordan and taking it all the way. He was a top athlete.
forget the stats bro, watch him before hia injury. he was amazing. the speed, defense, was incredible. theres a video of him battling young orlando shaq, both of them were incredible in that game. when centers were great
@@terren1275 I’m old enough to remember him. I watched nba religiously during that era. I’m just using stats to justify my argument to people who don’t agree
John Stockton absolutely deserves more recognition. He leads two categories all-time, and the number twos in both categories are not that close to Stockton. He played so many full seasons, something 99% of players of today couldn't even imagine doing.
No he doesn’t. He sometimes gets TOO much recognition because people override his level of play in comparison to his fellow greats in favor of his stats. He was phenomenal but he was NEVER an mvp caliber player the likes of magic, Kidd, Oscar, cp, west, Nash far too often people use the his stats and ONLY his stats to justify putting him top 3 over more accomplished and better players who peaked much higher.
@@TheIcemanthomasonly magic was better pg than him. In addition, he made Malone
When i was a kid playing comp ball and all that (late 90s early 00s) Dr J was VERY revered. It's crazy how kids just don't ever think about him anymore. He was incredible
I think a ton of people sleep on how good Bill Walton was in the 1977-1978 season. He was dominant in college, in the 1977 postseason and even as a 6th man for Boston, but the way he went absolutely nuclear that regular season is a thing of beauty. He had scoring and playmaking abilities that perfectly complemented each other on the elbows, his defense was superb for the time period, he could grab rebounds with his imposing height and was brilliant at finding the niche moments to win games. In my book, 1978 Bill Walton pre-injury is the most complete center in NBA history.
im with you on bill walton, he was a monster back in the day. too bad about his injuries. i would still put hakeem as the best all around center ever, but bill's passing was superior.
Almost every white player ever is underrated in 2023, mostly by kids who see old white dudes with bad hair and think they were plumbers.
Larry Bird, Kevin McHale, Jerry West, Bill Walton, John Stockton, etc. They all get shoved aside to some extent.
@@John6-40 add Steve Nash to the list
My only point to make about your discussion about Bill Walton is that there really isn't a pre-injury Bill Walton. He came out of college with nagging knee and and ankle problems that the 82 game pro season only aggravated to the point he lost considerable playing time. He was a great, but physically damaged player.
@@John6-40 You can let yourself believe it is because of skin color, but the real reason is they are from a past era and will never have the same face time of the players in the league right now. As pointed out at the beginning of this video, these debates are mostly driven by sports analysis from today trying to drive their personal ratings. Very few members of their audience care about someone that played 40 years ago, or even ever saw them play. Draymond Green is far more likely to get them ratings than any talk of Moses Malone ever will. That's not because of skin color, that is because of the age of the audience.
THANK YOU. People need to stop disrespecting Dr. J.
Dr. J isn’t disrespected. He accumulated the majority of his accolades in an inferior league. Plain and simple. Nobody considers Yao Ming’s dominance in China as a part of his resume because he simply wasn’t as dominant in the NBA when it actually mattered.
@@youwontlikethistakeThe NBA was the inferior league. Stop the false narratives. The ABA won 79 games against the NBA while the NBA won 76. ABA > NBA
@@sambeezy007 Those were exhibition games. They don’t count for squat. Nothing was on the line. Very few dominant ABA players went on to have success in the NBA. Almost all of them dropped off drastically after the merger. There’s your evidence of inferiority.
@youwontlikethistake False. In the 70s before the merger when they had those games players like Artis Gilmore, Bobby Jones, Iceman, David Thompson, Dan Issel and others were in their primes. Last I checked. Exhibition or not. Just like regular season games, you play to win. You have fun. Yes. But have fun and win. If you play to lose, don't play at all. Stop the false narratives.
@@sambeezy007 You need to do your homework. 42 different players earned All-ABA honors. 33 of those spent time in the NBA as well. Only 8 of those 33 also earned All-NBA honors (Connie Hawkins, Rick Barry, Spencer Haywood, Julius Erving, Billy Cunningham, George McGinnis, George Gervin and David Thompson). Of those 8, only 5 earned All-NBA honors more than twice. Only 3 earned a spot on the NBA 75th Anniversary Team. Of those 3, NOBODY is considering anyone other than Julius Erving to be a Top 25 player of All-Time, and even he’s at the bottom of that list.
Most of the “great” All-ABA players never even cut it in the NBA. Some never even got an contract. The rest fizzled because they didn’t stack up. The talent gap between the two is astronomical. Several players you listed (Artis Gilmore, Bobby Jones and Dan Issel) never earned All-NBA honors. They were relegated to being role players in the NBA.
There is no question about it. The ABA, talent and all, did not stack up to the NBA. And, just for reference and comparison, 25 of the NBA 75th Anniversary Team member played during this same era without going to the ABA.
You can’t leave the Logo out of the SG conversation. Shooting, scoring, assists, defense - He could do it all.
Nobody worth discussing for shooting guards?! Jerry West is certainly in Wade’s class and probably ahead historically. Dude had a 6’9” wingspan, was an elite two player, and was the first elite jump shooter without even having a 3 point line. A stone cold competitor and a basketball genius.
I would place West clearly ahead of Wade.
Isaiah Thomas was a beast. When I've started to watch the NBA, he was my favourite player alongside Magic.
*Isiah
I believe by the end of this year Jonny will have 200k subs
Zeke definitely slept on. If you look at his skillset and mentality, if he were playing today and obsessed about shooting 8x 3’s a game he’d be so nice he’d be in the MVP convo. And could easily average 25/10.
shit, with today's defense he could average 30 and 15 easy. zeke was the real deal, my #2 pg of all time.
Julius Irving has a hell of a resume, I didnt realize how stacked it was
I like what your doing with the video format looks dope keep it up
Great to hear!!
@jonnyarnett also you should've done Jerry West for SG if he counts
@@jonnyarnett PLEASE A VIDEO ON DREAM TEAM 2 (94 FIBA TEAM). PLEASE
Jerry West, I think is the 3rd best PG to touch a ball and I don't think he talked about
Absolutely spot on as usual Jonny!!! My dad would always talk about these guys and how dominant they were so most of them are in my top 10 top 5 for respective positions. But someone’s gotta show these young bloods what’s up
Thank you Jonny for mentioning these players!
I think the lack of ABA footage available really hurts Dr J in these rankings. I can find more games of much older players like Wilt, Jerry West, Bill Russell, etc than I can of Julius' prime in the ABA.
i remember watching that famous aba all-star game and slam dunk contest on tv. doc's foul line dunk was even more exciting than when mj did it years later.
eh, i dont think so
everyone in my generation knows Dr J (before Magic vs Bird)
i admit i am old (40+ now) but kids from LeBron age wont look another player way too far difference from their age
it is what it is
Johhy put out a video... I drop everything and watch ❤️ I agree with you and love that you remind us of good old guys who played their hearts out on the court but are sadly forgotten in modern era.
Great list my brother. I grew up in the 70s and 80s, so I saw a lot of great players during those eras. Another great video as always. Thanks 👍
I really appreciate the unique perspectives you offer on basketball conversations that you can provide because of your knowledge of previous eras of the NBA. You’re one of the few people I respect on the topic of older NBA history, as you don’t have a deep resentment for the game like most “Oldheads” would and remain unbiased when debating the old against the new. I feel that a lot of the time, when discussing things like this, people will discredit players and have bad-faith conversations on both older and newer players. We appreciate you, Jonny.
God bless you brother 🙌 keep up the incredible content
no clue why but just something comforting about your style of videos even when you complain about things you don’t change the energy but explain your views with data and accept that other have different ones you need a mill already
Great video as always
You're videos are always dope... but these last ones are absolutely brilliant!! I'm very glad that you included Moses and Dr J. I agree that Malone would be recognized much more if he has stayed in one or two teams... NBA has its narratives, I guess.
First from Nairobi,Kenya 🇰🇪🇰🇪🇰🇪
Okay for the shooting guard I thought of 1 player who should of been mentioned that's Clyde Drexler obviously Jordan Kobe Iverson Wade or Even Harden are mention but Clyde Drexler doesn't get talked about as much like these 5 shooting guards.
Man idk what the video is on get but I respect the hell out of Jonny because he pays respect to the past. I’m 20 years old soon so I always get laughed out of debates when I bring up historical players
Absolutely fabulous list. I agree with each and everyone one of those selections
Man keep educating the new generations on basketball’s deep history.Guys don’t get how many truly great players have come along through the years.
Big props to u Jonny your editing skills have gotten noticeably better keep it up! Ur definitely right about the clicks though Jordan vs moses wouldn't get as many views as Jordan vs Lebron
love the new visuals and another great vid
I like the new layout for the stats. Adds on to the fact that you got the cleanest NBA CZcams channel 🔥
Jerry West gets overlooked because he was a combo guard. He led the league in scoring as a shooting guard, and led the league in assists as a point guard. Losing 7 times to the 1960’s Celtics is nothing to be ashamed of ,they were always stacked. John Havlicek is almost in the conversation himself as a combo SG , SF , 6th man , 8 time champ , aggressive defender etc…Sam Jones top 10 all time SG . Celtics leading scorer during tittle run. 10x champ and clutch shooter . Those Celtics had around 7 other HOF ‘ers…
Moses is definitely the most underrated and left out center and I think Hakeem is starting to become underrated aswell, I have Hakeem over Steph and Shaq in my top 10 but i've heard some people, not media members, when talking about there top 10 with them they don't even bring up Hakeem and are surprised when I have him top 10.
here here! hakeem is the best all around center ever, imo.
He has a great point. Kids nowadays don't even mention Hakeem. They have no clue.
If I had a top 10 list it would be the 2 best players from each era starting from the 60s to the 2000s. That's 10 players. Shaq isn't one of them.
I've had the same. Top 10s are difficult as greats will inevitably be left out, but Hakeem is in there.
@@Banned4Life I believe tier lists are the way to go.
New video quality plus new video style. I definitly appreciate the new effort Jonny, it looks very good
You do the best intros Jonny, also I really like the new stats screen
George Gervin definitely deserves to be in the discussion
only as a scorer
There is now a statue of Gervin at Eastern Michigan University.
Thank you for including Moses and McHale! They rarely get mentioned but true ballers know how great they were. They may not be as popular but they are more skilled than a lot of top tiered guys in their position.
New editing style? I Loved the simple Text over Pictures, made you distinct, but these new transitions and graphics, They are slick. I'm excited to see them flourish.
Jonny with the heat agai. One of my favorite CZcamsrs
That was Dope how you gave Zeke his respect💯
I love how you showed stats on screen kind of like jimmyxhighroller it was very effective in conveying your arguments.
Love the new graphics! Maybe toned down a little it would make it easier to focus on the actual video, but really cool and love to see it!
As much as Jordan hate Isiah, he puts Isiah as the 2nd greatest PG ever closely behind Magic.
Julius, was up in the air years befor Jordan took off his first flight.
I have to admit I didn't realise Kevin Mc Hale and Moses were that good.
Another great video from you. Thanks!
any clips or news on that?might be interesting take
@@pp-vf8ls its in The Last Dance.
czcams.com/video/1OBt5euL31w/video.htmlsi=uJZcTYHVT4eJpdd2
That editing style is crazy!!!
While Magic is my favorite player ever, a point guard I think gets constantly overlooked is Bob Cousey. The guy set the standard on what a ball handler and floor general could be, as well as someone who could hold his own on both sides of the court. And outside of Magic, you've never seen someone have more fun while playing the game.
Cousey was a magician with the ball!
Amazing data as usual my man.
C: The Admiral
PF: Bob Pettit
SF: Hondo and Baylor
SG: The Logo (unless you consider him a PG)
PG: The Logo (see above) and Cousy
@jonnyarnett
Please do a long video on the ABA. It’s a part of the sport history that is overlooked!!
2:20 wooo boy this was so clean I almost forgot what channel I was watching LOL
Great topic today
Really surprised Jerry West was not mentioned for Shooting Guard.
* Also have you considered doing a video of NBA vs ABA MVP's and who would have won the award if everyone played in 1 league?
Oh that’s a great suggestion!! I might just do that… can never go wrong with Jerry West either. The only difficult thing for me was whether to have him as a PG or a SG
@@jonnyarnett PLEASE A VIDEO ON DREAM TEAM 2 (94 FIBA TEAM). PLEASE
@@jonnyarnettyou take that suggestion and you ignore me suggestion, video after video.
@@jonnyarnettawesome!
Hey dude love the new editing style, my pick for somebody who should be in the PG Goat debate is Jason kidd
Man I'm getting old if The Docter is regarded as forgotten. Definitely not forgotten in my mind.
Solid list I would actually take Bob pettit for PF but mchale Is a solid pick for SF it's a rough choice between dr.j. and Elgin Baylor I think Isiah is farrely rated there's not a lot of good choices for PG
I totally agree with you about Bob Pettit. And I would choose Elgin over Julius.
Damn I just made a comment that Elgin Baylor should be mentioned, and I see this, nice one
I'll name 1 PG. Bob Cousy.
1 MVP, 6 rings, 12 All NBA, 13 time All Star
McHale doesn’t belong alongside Malone, Nowitzki, Garnett, or Barkley. But Bob Pettit does.
So let me guess people. A player that has the accolades:
3x Champion
4x MVP (3 in a row)
2x Finals MVP
16x All Star
12 All ABA/NBA
1x All Defensive Team
3x Scoring Champion
Dunk Contest Winner
All time blocks leader at the SF position
Isn't a top 10 player?
Because of the changes in rules, philosophy, training, travel, income, etc.... it is easy to only see the NBA as we each saw it when we were most enthralled with it. We then compare players of other eras (both before and after) to our standards. I completely agree on your choices of Mo, McHale, Doc, and Zeke... mostly because I lived vicariously through Doc in the 70's and then watched the NBA voraciously in the 80's, 90's and up to 2011. I can only research players like Mikan, Schayes, Pettit, Baylor,the Logo and the Pistol... or listen to my father's stories of the Big O, the Big E, Sam Jones,KC Jones, and Havlicek.
I know older stats can be spotty or incomplete, but when a player retires as the league leader in a stat (or even top 10 for more recent players), then I think that person deserves consideration. Obviously Mikan does pass the current eye test, but he sure did back then. The numbers (scoring, rebounding, assists, awards) that Cousy, Pettit, Schayes, et al, put up were remarkable and even if they are down on the all time list now, they deserve consideration for being the best of their era.
I know that still shots with a biography lecture on these players makes for a much less interesting video. Players after 1980 have much more video to back up their inclusion in the conversation.
Players that could have been considered in the conversation but are not due to not playing in the NBA in their primes are another interesting topic. Eric Manigault, Oscar Schmidt, Arvidas Sabonis, Drazen Petrovic.... As the NBA has become more of a global, open, long range, and less brutal game, I think these four players (from what I've heard) would all dominate.
I love your channel. Please continue the good work. Please continue with your series on players with whom fans should be familiar. (Loved the inclusion of Dale Ellis.... helped break the conventional wisdom.)
Always on point. Other players left out would include Elgin Baylor, Rick Barry and Allen Iverson
Great points, Jonny! I like how you mentioned Dr. J. I think Michael Jordan looked up to Dr. J too and I agree that he is one of the best small forwards and belongs in the conversations.
I think other players that are missing from the conversation, but should be included are Jerry West, Pistol Pete, and Bob Cousy for the two guard positions. While I think that Kobe and MJ are better shooting guards, and although I believe Magic, Curry, and Isaiah are better point guards, I think that West (SG), Maravich, (SG) and Cousy (PG) should be discussed as they are among some of the best guards who have ever played.
Have a great rest of the week, Jonny :).
For me:
Center: David Robinson
Power forward: Bob Pettit
Small forward: John Havliceck
Shooting guard: Jerry West
Point guard: Oscar Robertson
Thank You! Finally someone who's knowledgeable & make sense. People forget that Dr J was basically Jordan before Jordan. While I do have MJ & Kareem as the 2 GOATS, I always have to remind ppl that the Doctor was that dude.And I'm with you on Isaiah, I HATED his team growing up but he's probably the biggest snub in this video because if it wasn't for Magic he would be the perfect point guard.
I have a similar perspective on Zeke as you. Have grown to really respect what he’s done on the court. He’s my #2 pg.
For playoff performance recognition, Isiah Thomas was the baddest basketball player to stand at 6'1" or shorter in NBA playoff games. Isiah Thomas put fear into opposing teams. I never forget that game 6 performance in the 1988 NBA Finals against the Lakers. IT was a one-man scoring machine. The Pistons almost pulled off that game. 25 pressure packed points in one quarter on a bum ankle. Insane performance!
Really like the new graphics. Some small flaws but loving the increased production value.
Amazing vid
Great video
hey Jonny, been a viewer for about a year now and i just wanna comment on the new editing style, the graphics are great but at times like 6:32 i think itd be better if youd make the graphics smaller and to the side and have footage of the player in the background
Keep Up 👍 Your Good NBA Videos 👍
Jerry West is highly underrated. He had better number than Kobe and his number was better in the playoffs than regular season. It was just that he was playing at a time with that crazy Celtics team winning everything. Highly underrated player.
Wow you have the exact same thoughts i have regarding Zeke, i hated him but its ridiculous he isnt even mentioned as an all time great specially in his PG position, it is as you say, ive seen him put 20 assists in one game and next score 40+ points. Insanely talented guy even though i did not like him or his team.
Babe wake up. Johnny just posted
FOR REAL
This was a really great video. Personally i feel like Jerry West could've been here as shooting guard or point guard though
As a young person (24) i always try to bring in Kareem and other stars of the late 70s and 80s that people won’t even go look at their stats it’s always “they’re old and didn’t play against anyone
I'd love to hear a ranking by you. The top 5 players all time for every position
I appreciate you giving light to Moses
Kevin Mchale that’s a great one !!!!!
He was a cheap shot artist and should have been suspended in the 1984 finals.
@@Mike1122. only way to stop Showtime like Celtics mentioned before they were the first bad boys not the pistons 😎
Let’s get this man to 200k
i love how you skipped the SG position 🤣
cause i totally agree.
🎯 you had me at Moses
I love the list, the only issue i have is how is it possible to leave Jerry West off of it? I think possibly bcs theres confusion as to whether he gets classified as a sg or a pg. I would say shooting guard, and while one can put Michael and Kobe in their own class, once you get past those two, or even just past MJ you can make as good an argument for Jerry West as anyone.
Ppl definitely forget Zeke, the Pistons were great (tactics aside) another reason Jordan deserves credit cause in their 2 championship seasons, the Bulls were the only ones that consistently beat them a few games in the playoffs, even when they swept everybody including the Lakers in 88-89 (Magic was MVP). Another reason when folks say they were old when the Bulls beat them is dumb, cause they were still prime.
Two players that deserve to be mentioned more in the Point Guard and Center conversation in my opinion would be the leaders of the greatest era in Knicks history, Walt Frazier and Willis Reed.
Frazier’s career is actually very similar with Zeke’s in terms of accolades and stats, with both winning 2 rings. Of course, Zeke has the Finals MVP although Walt had a strong case for winning Finals MVP for both of his rings. He had an outstanding peak and was a Top 5 player in the league for years.
Reed is up there for centers because he had one of the most underrated peaks in NBA history, winning triple-MVP in one season (Regular, All-Star, Finals). Since Willis, only Jordan and Shaq have done this, so he deserves to be mentioned in the conversations. It’s really sad how injuries hindered his career. If not for that, he probably would be mentioned a lot more today. He deserves to be.
Isiah Thomas is not forgotten in the GOAT PG convo, but Oscar is
Thank you, Dr. J is amazing. Free throw line dunking before mj, and after wilt
I’m a little shocked you didn’t include Mr Clutch, Jerry West, in the convo of best guards of all time.
Had the phantom foul not have happened, IT and the pistons would have 3 peated. That would definitely put him in most people's top 20 or 15. Crazy how 1 ring changes a players legacy, in this case 1 foul call.
I think Jerry West Should be in the conversation for PGs at least. The man had a worse team almost every year in the finals and was consistently the best player at the highest level. His 2 titles could possible turn to 8 if he played slightly better or his team had one more superstar
I dont think there is a greatest but, there are a group of players that are in that room of players who changed the game. Bird, Kobe, Wilt, Shaq, Jordan, Magic, Kareem, LeBron, Russell, and Tim Duncan.
I agree with the take at the beginning. Some players who have stayed relevant are because they have stayed in the media. No body would talk about charles barkely if he wasnt on a show. No disrespect to him but i just think more people need to be recognized
I have to add one thing about Isaiah Thomas: he should have won 3 rings and have a 3 peat. But the “phantom foul’ robbed him.
And that game 7 where they let the crowd get on the floor before the game was even finished
Hey Johnny whats up with new editing it feels off a little bit but great vedio i think one of th reasons these people dont get mentioned a lot is that these people har a case but not that food or a case for the best. Anways week 2 of asking Johnny Arenet to nake a vedio on LeBron james haters.