STOP Disrespecting SHAQ
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- čas přidán 5. 01. 2024
- I breakdown the recent instances where Shaq was being disrespected.
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Fill in the blank. Shaq is the ___ greatest Center.
3rd
1st or 2nd Kareem is close
4th or 5th depending on whether you consider Tim Duncan a Centre or PF.
@@damboulton Timmy is definitely a PF
5th or 6th depending if you label Duncan as a center
The fact that he said Shaq was 5th, and Bill Russell wasnt one of the 4 ahead of him 🤦🏽♂️
Bill Russel was only 6’9 the same height as Lebron and magic Johnson
@@SoggySlopsterbut he had a good wingspan and an extremely good vertical.
@@SoggySlopsterand? Could LeBron or Magic guard Wilt Chamberlain, no, Bill Russell could
he really said kwame was better than shaq
@@SoggySlopsterwhat does that have to do w anything lmao he dogged wilt
Shaqs production in the finals isn’t talked about enough, he always saved his best for last
Shaq no doubt played amazing in the finals, but two of the three finals in the threepeat were against teams with centers that weren’t very good defensively.
That said, playing great is playing great
THIS is worth mentioning. He did average 35/15 in the Finals at his peak.
@@fortynights1513exactly!
@@fortynights1513This is a fair point, but I feel like even an all-time great defender would have problems guarding a prime Shaq
@@HugoSoup57 depends on what era of refereeing.
Maddog not only saying 5 players better than Shaq instead of 4 but then also failing to mention Bill Russel was just hilarious 🤣
because shaq is better than bill. bill is 7 at best
@@hou950 7 more rings. Bill Russel is the greatest winner ever
@@nathanbraun2067 played with the most all star and hall of fame teammates.
Honestly rings should be divided by all star teammates played with.
@@nathanbraun2067don't put everything around rings... they were less teams in the past, trade market wasn't the same,... accolades don't say everything
And I don't say that Bill is not better
@@hou950 there is an argument to be made that Bill Russell is the Greatest Player of all time let alone center….he is arguably the Greatest Defender in the History of the Game and if Finals MVP were given during his time, he would’ve won atleast 5 as there was no one better than him in his team..
So 11 Rings, 5 MVPs and 5 Finals MVPs…Shaq has no chance
Embiid is nowhere near Shaq 😂
Yes that waf comical like I like bill Simmons but no e,biid is not in this convo
@@johndavis9321yea he is
@@Bigedub101 no no he ain't sorry
@@Bigedub101Embiid is a playoff choker, no way. Shaq won a 3 peat of championships as the best player on a championship team. Embiid didn’t accomplish anything in the playoffs.
Embiid is also much more weakminded
I think the source of Shaq's humble streak is some regret about not having pushed himself harder during his career. In the years before he died Kobe said in a few interviews that Shaq could have become the GOAT if he had only focused on basketball. Maybe Shaq has come to agree.
That tracks.
I think there's some truth to this. This has also been a common talking point since he retired if not before then that Shaq underachieved. Despite underachieving he's still a top 10 player of all time and had one of the most dominant peaks in NBA history unlike what some of the people are saying in this comment section.
@@CrazyxEnigma Top 5 center and you can argue he’s a top 10 player, but he is not a top 5 player of all time or top 3 center. Still, for someone who “underachieved” in his career, he made an all-time incredible career for himself and to be in the top 10-12 convo is extremely remarkable to say the least.
I loved that clip from Kobe, he goes like we would have 12 championships, if Shaq focused more on basketball. Kobe said straight up he would have been the GOAT with that body of his.
Didn't Shaq consistently defend himself against that talking point as long as Kobe was around, though? I think Shaq's change of manner is specific to his relationship with Kobe and probably bound up in grief at that loss.
But I always liked Shaq the way he was, even with the distractions. I rooted for him sometimes (Sixers, Nets, Mavericks) and against him others (Rockets, Pacers, Pistons). I especially liked the occasions where he defeated teams who used the hack-a-Shaq stategy.
I don't think it's disrespectful to say Shaq is the 5th best center ever because of who the four ahead him could be. You can definitely argue that Kareem, Russell, Wilt, and Olajuwon are ahead of Shaq.
I have 4 of them ahead of shaq plus timmy
What are we arguing though? Skill? Accomplishments? Stats? Hakeem is more skilled, but is he just straight up better? Athleticism and physical strength and prowess allow for a great boost in one's performance. Shaq had an abundance of both. He didn't need to learn crazy moves to get his way. Physical attributes aren't skills, but they DO make one better. Shaq was more efficient offensively, and harder to stop due to his size and strength. I'd take Shaq over Kareem, but Kareem has one of, if not, the greatest career of accomplishments ever. I think the only thing separating Wilt from Shaq was Wilt was a staunch defender and Wilt had a little more finesse to his game a good fadeaway, also the level of competition. But to be fair, Wilt faced the best way more often than Shaq did. Wilt at one point had to face Bill Russell and the Celtics 12 TIMES a season, and Nate Thurmond and the Warriors, of which Thurmond could viably defend Wilt in the playoffs. Shaq was not facing Hakeem, Duncan, Ewing, etc 12 times a year, at MOST 4 for same conference and 2 for opposite conference.
Hakeem is arguable at best but the rest are sure better
Facts and I do have them all above, also Moses really isn’t that far from Shaq
@@jeortiz-luis4288 i have DUNCAN at 9th spot...
DUNCAN wasnt even better than ROBINSON...
The amount of shouting in the first clip was unbelievable. Thank goodness for calmer voices like you.
The guy in the middle praying was funny
Yeah, this is why modern TV is essentially unwatchable to me. It is extremely tiring. Damn, I'm old.
@@Sanderusfacts
You've probably wanted to say unbearable. Had to lower the volume I caught headache watching 10 seconds of barking
I agree. I refuse to listen to shows like those.
For his career, Embiid has been an offensive liability past the 1st round of the playoffs. His fans quickly forget this and let him fool them again by having a good regular season
Without the amazingly lucky shot from Khawi, I truly believe Phily would've been a dynasty, but they got rid of Buttler and it all fell down from that on
Regular season wise I agree with Bills take but he worded it so poorly
As a Philly fan yes.. yes you are right and I'm mad that someone compared him to Shaq lol
@@Midragortrue Butler was the glue. Embid would develop much better from him in a mentality standpoint
@@Midragorshoulda woulda coulda lol
In 01, Shaq dominated against Duncan and Robinson in a WCF sweep, and then dominated against Mutumbo in a finals Gentleman Sweep. People like to say the 2017 warriors would beat the Lakers, but if Shaq averaged 30 being defended by Duncan/Robinson/Mutumbo, then he would average 50 being defended by Javale McGee and Zaza Pachulia
An oversimplified analysis on Joel vs Shaq's ppg accounting for the difference in eras.
Shaq avg: 29.4 2000 Lakers avg: 100.8 2000 League Avg: 97.5
Joel avg: 34.8 2024 76ers avg: 120.7 2024 League Avg: 115.5
So Shaq accounts for 29.4% of the Lakers points and 30.4% of the league average points
Joel accounts for 28.8% of the 76ers points and 30.1% of the league average points.
Take that as you will
That stat about Embiid averaging 33.1ppg in the reg season and only 23.7 in the playoffs brings to mind Wilt's stats, who for his career averaged 30ppg in the reg season but only 22.5ppg in the playoffs.
This is why I have Shaq over Wilt all time.
@@facelessandnamelessbut we just ignore the fact that not a single team shaq played in those 3 playoff run was a all time great defensive team….
It’s kinda hard to keep your average when for 80% of your career you run into the same all time great defensive team with the greatest defensive player at center as it’s anchor in the first or 2nd round…
Also it hurts his average since he played a lot of his playoffs games after he broke his knees in 1969..
When wilt scored his points in the playoff he usually shot decent from the field and grabbed 20 rebounds and swatted 10 shots
Embiid meanwhile idk
@@universalplayz7496 10 ppg is a massive drop off. And Shaq played against the Spurs, Blazers, Jazz, Kings…these were all phenomenal teams! The Spurs in particular being one of the best defensive teams of all time. So you are absolutely WRONG about Shaq not playing against great defensive teams.
If you heard what Shannon Sharpe said about Shaq was honestly on point.
Shaq had a GOAT conversation if he wasn’t an underachiever: he could have easily had more points, more rings, and could have surpassed Kareem as best center of all time. It’s impossible not to like Shaq, and he is still a HOFer just from 2000-2002 alone, but if he cared more for his body rather than the Hollywood lifestyle (aka avoid injuries based on his weight), he would possibly finish with more rings than Kareem.
Moses Malone was shaq before shaq. Moses has a argument for the GOAT conversation for centers. Moses gave Kareem the business in the finals. But shaq hands down the best center
@@stepheningram9279Kareem, Wilt, Bill a Russell, and Hakeem are all better all time than Shaq. Prime Shaq was nearly unstoppable, but he didn’t reach his potential and didn’t beat great centers when in his prime. Also, for those who say he carried Kobe for 3 championships, look at Kobe’s stats in their 2001 and 2002 playoff runs. Kobe also won 2 championships without Shaq while Shaq won 1 more ring with a prime Dwayne Wade.
An 18 mins Jonny video? I used to pray for times like this🙏🏻
My memory of Shaq was of someone steamrolling over everyone and dunking the ball. I know it didn't happen every time. But it sure seemed like it did.
He was the most dominant center I've ever watched play, & I've been watching basketball since the 70's.
Steamrolling is another word for offensive foul.
@@marke219cope.
@@marke219no what you see players doing now is offensive fouling, stiff arms and all of that, Shaq was just stronger/bigger then everybody and played aggressively
@@bf6639It's only the restricted area when driving to the basket. Not when you're posting up.
Shaq is often referred to as the "most dominant big man ever" yet he never led the league in rebounding. Wouldn't the "most dominant big man ever" clean up the boards? (For comparison to other centers Wilt lead the league in rebounding 11 times, Moses 6 times, Bill Russell 4 times, Hakeem 2 times, and Kareem once). Also, Shaq won 2 scoring titles, you'd think such a dominant player would win more (though to be fair he did finish second by decimal points a few times). Plus, the "most dominant big man ever" only won 1 MVP. As great as his resume is, I really think Shaq underachieved.
It’s just not possible to compare post 2015 player stats to early stats because the game has changed so much, better spacing-better efficiency, faster pace of play, rules changes making defense harder
Would it be more fair to compare how well everyone compares to their respective peers during their careers?
When you look at scoring in any given era you always have to compare it to how much defenses were giving up at the time!
The era before that is even harder. Rules were changed to increase scoring and it didn't work due to just pathetic overall play. Somehow it's known as the best decade due to 8 good teams in 10 years. Everyone talks about Kobe beating 50 win teams but they don't see the big picture. The weather alone had more sub 20 win teams than the history of the league combined. Also no center, some of the hofers from the 90s had a few money grab years but that's why guys like kg and Duncan did play the 5. That's why Dwight Howard was so "good" with absolutely no offensive game. We're seeing that now with Gobert. Context ALWAYS matters.
@@fortynights1513agree. That’s a better way to gauge it.
That faster pace of play is wrong because depending on the era and the way teams played newer era don't always play faster. 80s you had Lakers with Magic was one of the faster pace of team play. 60s were much faster pace of play in the NBA and is comparable to now if not even faster pace of play than now hence the ridiculous rebounding and scoring stats. I would say the spacing is much better now with making defense way harder.
Not one player today could have slowed down prime Shaq
Giannis might be the closest, but yeah I pretty much agree
Draymond could
@@janoycresnova9156stop it
@@HugoSoup57that would’ve been fun.
Locked up? No, at least consistently, but slow down? I can name a few
Completely agree.
Like I said before I love how you compare players between era's. Context always matters as it should. Also Embiid has an historic level drop-off of ppg between regular - post season.
You could make a similar argument against Wilt’s drop off in the postseason, yet he’s still in my top 5 players, not just centers all time.
Shaq WAS the first unanimous mvp, dude knew that too and voted against him outta spite knowing he was the best.. also Shaq on tv is a character, hes cocky or humble depending on what the show needs, in real life hes humble as you can tell from all his stories of helping people
He was 1 vote shy of being the unanimous MVP.
Shaq was not unanimous
2000 Shaq was the most dominant center in history!
He said damn it mad dog, why you gotta make me shit on Mo? 😂
Lol, basically 😂
Nailed it buddy! Prisoners of the moment and desperate for stories in an over saturated news world the talking heads may say anything.
The thing i find interesting is how Jokic is conveniently forgotten as if his 10+ assists, triple doubles, and murderous basketball intellect dont count towards the best "offensive center."
Its such a complicated equation to figure, but if i had Embiid or Shaq for the win-it-all game... Shaq 9 out of 10 times.
Jokic is like Duncan a quiet dude who plays fundamental basketball and doesn't really trash talk or yap on Twitter so he isn't as marketable and so he isn't talked about by the media. Some people are speculating it's also because he's foreign but I don't buy it since Giannis, Embiid and Luka all get talked about.
Saying his the best offensive center might be a bit much
I’d say his top 3 best offensive center
As someone like wilt had the scoring and passing game just different periods in his career but both of those he led the entire league
And in terms of assists per game we won’t ever know wilts true number since assists weren’t tracked the same way.
I am constantly hearing how today's players are so much better than the players of the '80s, '90s and early 2000s. These people are completely discounting how many rules have changed in the NBA to accommodate this new style of play.
Not to mention many of them are playing even less games than ever even without injuries.
I mean OFFENSIVELY players are overall better, but it’s not as much as ppl say. It’s mostly inflated by the rise of the 3pt in the modern NBA.
2000s>
Shaq actually is 5th greatest of all time
I think there should be no doubt about Wilt, Bill and Kareem and then it's a personal opinion but I have Hakeem at 4 because of his unmatched D
If we get Tim in there and not call him a PF, then that's another debate
Shaq can just oscillate between 2 and 5 (6th with Duncan). It's really up to what will people state. I won't state my own opinion as it just isn't backed up enough by research to be credible.
No sane person should put him above Kareem I believe. When it comes to Wilt, it's very debatable due to Wilt's insane disrespect, the era he played in, his mythical feats, and just overall context and mystery. When it comes to Russell, era also matters and some people prioritize offensive production over defensive production, while some others might say his rings are mostly bogus blahblahblah...
And then obviously, Hakeem is hakeem.
I believe 3-4th would be a reasonable norm, which would make sense since most people have Shaq barely in / barely out of their top 10.
@@xxneweraxx7422all FACTS
I agree. I have all 6 in my top 10 players
I have had Hakeem and Shaq right next to each other on my list at 10-11... Struggling way too much to leave Shaq out
I don't think the first point is bad at all. I think the 6 greatest centres are Bill, Wilt, Kareem, Moses, Hakeem and Shaq, rank them whichever way you want but to me those are the only guys in contention unless you consider Tim Duncan a Center.
First point is definitely bad
@@JACQUEZJOHNSON23 Where do you rank Shaq then?
@@JACQUEZJOHNSON23 Shaq is not the greatest center of all time. He doesn’t have an argument for GOAT center. The first take is actually good imo except for saying Moses was better. Shaq has no argument to be placed above Kareem, Wilt, or Russell. I’d argue Hakeem was better as well and arguably even Tim Duncan if you count him as a center. He’s top 5-6 center, but not the GOAT at his position.
@@NRF787 3
@@HugoSoup57 cap
Shaq was like a force of nature. Teams stocked their rosters with bodies just to throw at/foul him, they hacked at & hit & hung on him, & STILL couldn't stop him.
As much as I absolutely love Mo & Hakeem, they did not just domimate in the same way that Shaq did. It was utter devastation out there.
Shaq was not as dominant as Wilt, he just played on better terms. I'd also rate Hakeem, Russell and Kareem above him if I wanted to win a title. Duncan was also a better big man to build around, while Jokic and Embiid are more skilled players who should pass Shaq. He's a bit overrated as he was one dimensional with weaknesses that could be exploited by good teams.
@@gullintanniWilt played on better teams and had better teammates
@@melvynsngltn27Bruh hell no! Just no! Did Wilt ever have a top 5 SG and top 12 player all time like Shaq did with Kobe? Shaq and the Lakers weren’t that successful until Kobe gradually improved into a star. Most of Wilt’s best teammates were at the beginning or tail end of their careers when they played with Wilt. Elgin Baylor and Wilt were not in their primes when they played together. Shaq and Kobe were both top 3-5 players in the league when they 3 peated.
@HugoSoup57 yes Jerry West. He had Hal Greer the third best guard during the entire 1960's. Chet the jet Walker. Wilt played on all-star teams
Shaq had a top 3 peak and prime ever, so he had the higher peak . Hakeem was a superior two way player and the most complete/skilled center ever, since he was far better defensively and more versatile than Shaq or virtually every other center all time. Hakeem had the two greatest playoff/Finals runs ever. His 2 championships were definitely harder to win than Shaq’s 4. Prime Hakeem was no slouch either, since he was one of only 3 players in NBA history to win MVP, DPOY, and FMVP the same season (along with only MJ and Giannis). He finished his career top 10 in all 5 major statistical categories. The only thing Shaq was much better out of those 5 at was scoring. Hakeem played against David Robinson, Patrick Ewing, and a young Shaq on the Orlando Magic. The best centers Shaq faced in his prime were probably Yao Ming and an older Mutombo.
I love you channel dude I’ll rather watch CZcams and channels like yours for basketball analytics verses the heavily biased tv media
9:24 that's one of my favorite books ever! I read the whole thing the summer of 2013. Then I started high school and haven't read an entire book ever since.
Great video, Jonny. The disrespect of Shaq is ridiculous. I think the comment that bugged me the most was the comparison of Embiid to Shaq. Like you, I found it to be superficial and I also was thinking about how Embiid hasn't come up clutch in the playoffs. I also concur about how the small sample size used (not even halfway into a season vs. Shaq's full seasons) leads to a skewed comparison.
I know you brought up Stephen A. Smith's comments in your other video, but I couldn't help but roll my eyes at his comments about Wilt.
Nice video again and you made some excellent points. I hope you have a great rest of the weekend, Jonny :).
Veteran players who want to win a championship at all costs and desperately want a championship ring often want to join a team with Shaq.
That's because you can't exclude a team with Shaq from being a contender for the championship.
Jonny just keep dropping baggers, love it brother🐐
Untill Embiid does something in the playoffs he shouldn't be included in these conversations
Jonny makes my day 🙏🏾
Jonny, all you have to do is normalize/adjust for league pace by year. This is what makes Kobe's 06 season so incredible - one of the slowest eras ever.
This
That's not how it works
@@PoliticusRex632 It's the best forecasting tool we have.
@@BOSSDONMAN how so?
@@PoliticusRex632 How else can we forecast how players will perform in different generations? It's not a perfect model, but there are no perfect models.
Great video as allways
if shaq were the size of moses malone, he would be darryl dawkins.
Basketball and Tolkien. Thanks a good set of books right there.
Embiid isn’t even the best offensive center THIS YEAR. That’s Jokic. Add up assists and points and Jokic destroys Embiid.
Embiid is overrated, and Jokic is underrated. Honestly I think all these analysts are just hating because now the European players are doing better.
I'm taking jokic all day every day
@@faruquekhan3353 the only Euro players in the top 10 are Doncic And Jokic, it’s not really accurate to say European players are dominating when it’s just really a few
Obviously most of the best players are from USA, the point is that the top player right now is Jokic, and only reason I believe he is getting all the hate and no support is because he is European. There is definite bias there. Same thing to me happened with Giannis because he was not an American player. Analysts constantly underestimated him and saying he would not do that well.@@jojoohyeah4761
One of my favourite thing about this channel is how Johnny consistently tame pot shots at Celtics homers base in the media under the garb of a decent~good take.
Absolutely amazing!!
Love your in depth stats. I'm more of an NHL guy. You remind me of Rob talks Hockey and Hockey Psychology
Kareem, Russell, Olajuwon, and Chamberlain all have solid cases for being a greater center than Shaq. Calling Shaq the 5th best center of all time isn’t as crazy if a take as people make it seem
D Robinson and Moses might be Better than Shaq also…Shaq never led league in Rebounding or Blocks , D Robinson did.
Stop
Lol no😂
It's not crazy at all. Only ones that think it's crazy are younger fans who didn't see the other great centers.
Recency bias.
2016 + NBA’s the weakest, softest version of the game we’ve ever seen. Fouls are given on anything, travelling’s basically not called, & no one can ACTUALLY play D. Been watching the game since 1983, & I quit on it in 2017. League’s worse now than it was in 2017, which is saying something. Embiid would straight up DIE versus Shaq, & Wilt would outsmart Shaq at every turn. SMFH at these so called experts.
Old head ass take lmao
Thank you for being a voice of reason
Teams used to have to run 4 to 5 centers when they played Shaq because he was guaranteed to get 3 of them in could trouble by the 3rd quarter.
It was insane.
Taking any of these talking heads at face value is a foolish proposition.
Also shoutout to your editor for putting a Jaime Jaquez clip in there lol.
100% agreed. They will say anything with enough shock value to generate conversation, are inconsistent with their opinions often changing for no valid reason, and I often wonder if they even believe what they are saying, even at the time they are saying it
Bill Russells generation of basketball should not be mentioned with the NBA past 1970. It's like the Ty Cobb era of baseball. Ancient history. They had 8 teams and played in chucks. Bill Russell could rebound and defend, but he's was 6'9 215. He would not be the best player or THAT game changer in any subsequent era of basketball. Plug ANY version of shaq in 1963 and he would average 80 and 36.
Preach, Brother Jonny, PREACH!
Despite the fact that wilt played against the second most HOF player at his position(only behind kareem and parish, which he played 7 years less than both) He PLAYED THE MOST TOTAL GAMES against another hof center….see list below lol
(mind you these are their barefoot heights, in the modern NBA you would add 1-2 inches to their height, as players have been measured in their shoes only after 1977)
C-Bill Russell: 6’10” HOF (143 games played in 9 seasons)
C-Kareem Abdul Jabbar: 7'2" HOF(27 games played in 4 seasons)
C-Willis Reed: 6,10” HOF(72 games played in 8 seasons)
C-Walt Bellamy: 6'11" HOF(100 games played in 11 seasons)
C-Artis Gilmore: 7'2" HOF
C-Bob Lanier: 6'11" HOF(17 games played in 3 seasons)
C-Nate Thurmond: 6'11" HOF(47 games played in 4 seasons)
C-Bob McAdoo: 6’10” HOF (5 games played in 1 season)
C-Elvin Hayes:6’9 “ HOF (22 games played in 4 seasons)
(Wes Unseld is also a HOF center but he is 6’7) (26 times in 5 seasons)
(Dave Cowens is also a HOF Center/Forward but he is 6”9)(17 games played in 3 seasons)
(Connie Hawkins is also a HOF Forward/ center but he is 6”9)(31 games played in 4 seasons)
(please note there are more HOF PF who guarded and were guarded by wilt chamberlain but the majority of them are 6’8 to 6’9)
SO THATS 574 OUT OF 1045…WHICH TRANSLATES TO 54% OF WILTS GAMES BEING PLAYED AGAINST ANOTHER HOF CENTER…
Shaq isn’t in my top 5 centers, i classify Duncan as a center and place him higher than Shaq
Seems odd. As a PF I'd understand TD being listed above Shaq on some arbitrary alltime list. But as a Center? I disagree with that. This is where Tim Duncan sometimes gets a little too much credit.
If you’re considering Duncan as a center, that’s a fair take. But even if other people don’t, then Shaq is 5th all time at most.
@@HugoSoup57 No way, Shaq BODIED Duncan everytime they played. Stop this nonsense.
@@michlo3393 Tim Duncan is literally a center. he played center in college. and a majority of his career he played center. the only reason he played power forward was because David Robinson was on his team as well. he’s literally not a power forward. it’s not odd because you don’t do your own research.
I have Shaq at number 3 myself with Kareem and Hakeem being first and second… the biggest issues with Shaq was foul shots and fitness. The rest was simply scary 😱
Like your list but I put Shaq over Hakeem. Shaq's offense was just too great, though have to say Hakeem is crazy good and can make a case either way. And I guess I am slight bias because I saw Shaq play rather than Hakeem. One thing with the games against Shaq, the game revolved around him where he was getting double triple teamed and made rest of the team members be open was just crazy. He use to also get other teams into foul trouble. It's because of that I have to put Shaq over Hakeem.
@@faruquekhan3353 The same was said about Hakeem, if you take away the years where Ralph Sampson was on the Rockets, Hakeem was the Rockets. Sure he had some quality players around him but no all-stars. When Drexler joined he was already past his prime. But I hear you, Hakeem or Shaq depends if you’re more a 80s or a 90s basketball fan 🏀.
Embiid shoots free throws because he flops and wants free throws; Shaq shot free throws because nobody can stop him. Big difference
To be honest (And I love Shaq), 5th is where I'd put him as well. I think Wilt, Russell, Jabbar and Hakeem are better overall at his position. He might be as high as 4th because I could easily flip/flop between him and Hakeem but 5th isn't unreasonable. Keep in mind that Center is one of the most stacked positions in NBA history.
Excellent video as always. Look at it like this, if a "Shaq" like player was playing in today's NBA he would break the Internet. In my opinion Shaq is actually underrated
Take joker over Embiid any day right now. Dont even need to rewind the clock.
when shaq played it was shaq vs enemy team, everyone had to be aware, involved and on top of their game and teams still could not stop him, we never seen this before and it's most certainly not the case with embid or any other center. it was shaq vs whole team, with everyone one else is "insert center name" vs opposite center.
shaq is 2nd grates center, after wilt and ex aequo with kareem
Embidd got smacked around last night so this its hilarious watching this
Since when is Embiid even better offensively than Jokic?
To be far, very few are better offensively than Jokic.
@@dellmaxson2184 yeah that’s what I’m saying
And jonny don't forget on your last best 30 players of all time you put kareem, wilt, Bill and hakeem above shaq and moses was only 2 places behind shaq...
Oh I haven’t. Moses was no joke. As I said in the video, Mad Dog’s take was the least egregious
Bill Simmons saids crazy takes like this every other week lol
You da man Jonny!!
We all love Shaq but Hakeem is the real GOAT centre. It's a fact most basketball fans can't accept.
Agreed. Olajuwon was great on both sides of the ball and in several areas of offense (outside of 3 point shooting). He also never had a Kobe/D-wade/Penny on his team. He did it with a well built team of role players who played off of him very well, which his presence gave them those opportunities. I've watched highlights of the guy for years because his prime was a little before my time, so I am a little biased in his favor.
No knock on Hakeem, but could it be argued that Kareem was better than both?
Kareem is #1 for me.
@@fortynights1513Yes there could be! I never got to see Kareem play. Haven't really even seen film of him in his prime with Milwaukee. So I try not to go either way with him. Didn't start watching the NBA till the early nineties.
Hakeem #4 for me
swept the most in the NBA playoffs all-time Shaquille O'Neal
I feel like so many gloss over this like Shaq was so successful in the 90’s. Orlando and LA were good teams in the regular season, but they just couldn’t get it done in the post season. Even his one Finals appearance before Kobe and Shaq’s 3 peat, the Magic were swept by Hakeem’s Rockets.
@HugoSoup57 and how many times did he miss the playoffs or lose in the first round 🤔. Hakeem Olajuwon lost in the first round most of his career how come nobody talks about that
@@melvynsngltn27 Hakeem win a championship with Otis Thorpe 2nd best player and Shaq played with penny,Kobe,wade,lebron etc
@Litty108 Shaq played far better teams Olajuwon had Otis Thorpe to help score, and rebound and guard opponents PF's. Shaq didn't Which is why LA & Miami was so mediocre without Shaq. Put Hakeem on the Lakers against the Spurs or Sacramento they'll get the $hit beat out of them similar to the way Seattle use to destroy Olajuwon and Houston. Teams were forced to double and triple team Shaq. Also Olajuwon was a massive ball hog just like Kobe. Shaq like Kareem was forced to play a more team game and still dominate
People forget that Shaq played in an era where he faced two of the all time great defensive teams in NBA History .
The Spurs and Pistons of the 2000's were defensive monsters .😊
I mean wilt and Kareem played all time great defensive teams aswell…
Like Wilt faced the celetics for 10% of his entire god damn career…
If I had to pick two HOF centers in their prime to lead my ultimate dream team it would be Shaq and Olajuwon. Power and finesse. Dominance and quickest footwork. Seen them since their rookie years and in their prime. None better.
Shaq always Hit his Clutch Free Throws in Big Moments in his Prime.
He really came through alot more than people seem to remember in that aspect
Like you, I follow Bill Simmons' content and read his book "Book of Basketball" which is a great read (the information of the NBA TV deal from pre 1984 surprised and made appreciate the branding evolution afterwards).
I must say that his opinions pertaining to comparing past players from yesteryear to today's players w/o proper context has disappointed. He use to give great context in as why such team in 2011 were able to score more than a different team in 2002. I get the comparison to Shaq to a degree but both are totally different players. Joel is more Hakeem than Shaq imo.
On a side note, I'm sick of certain individuals in mainstream podcasts and video channels doing segments of hypothetical trades during the season instead of covering what is actually going on during the season.
You had Shaq #1 in your Peak video and his stats from the finals those years speaks volumes. Embiid is very skilled but what allows you to enter the conversation about the goats is above all else playoff performances
Shaq didn’t take the game seriously. That’s the issue, he had the potential to be so much better. He didn’t want to listen and take anything from the bigs before him. One example is he could’ve been a far better ft shooter if he just listened to wilt chamberlains advice about the underhand free throws.
Ive heard he briefly worked with Kareem but refused to try to develop a skyhook because he felt the shot looked lame. Which is a very bizarre reason to pass up the chance to be taught the most indefensible big-man shot in history
Similar to Randy Moss in that regard. Rightly docked for effort, but if that weren't a problem, GOAT
Mad Dog is a boomer, and they literally have him on there for clickbait. Prime Shaq is the most unstoppable force ever in the NBA, even more than MJ, Wilt, or Kareem. Plug him in ANY ERA, and he's getting 30 and 13. As good as Embiid is, he's playing in an era where they breathe in your direction and you're going to the line. Also, he hasn't even made a conference finals. Lastly, he's very injury prone. Shaq was Elite and winning for 10 straight seasons (getting double and triple-teamed), then very good for 5 more before being washed. Embiid has missed 2 full seasons with injuries, never played more than 68 games in a season, and hasn't won anything yet.
jonny pls makw a video about jj reddick comments about rules favoring the defense not the offense. its really outrageous and i know it would be a banger
Man JJ has gone full ESPN talking head in his takes huh. I bet he doesn't even believe what he's saying he's just trying to get clicks saying outrageous stuff here.
Bill DID say “this version of embiid,” which is very important. He’s just caught up in the moment. I’d give Bill a pass on this one. I do agree with you re: the playoffs argument, though
This is my problem when comparing eras, lakers shaq was the most dominant of his era but he benefited greatly from a time with slower play so less stress on this body over time and a more relaxed defensive role. Put him in today's league and lack def versatility and one dimensional offensive would make him a limited threat. Put in Orlando shaq and we basically get giannis.
It would be good to see someone break down the points per game stats and convert it to the percentage of points in games each player scored. This could be a better way to compare the scoring of players from different eras.
Shaq’s free-throw issues were huge! I was a big laker fan during those years, but the fact they were literally taking him out of games because of was incredibly frustrating. No one even knew how to ref him. Opposing players clobbered him and he bull-dozed through them anyway … there’s no way to know whether it was a defensive or offensive foul. Shaq was an insane player and probably the player that could have been in the goat conversation if he actually worked on his game even a little bit. I’d put Olajuwon over him for that reason alone. Embiid isn’t in Shaq’s class (of course!), but if you want to disrespect him for his free-throws then I’m very sympathetic.
the nba also made a rule because if him that prevented players from intentionally fouling the same person multiple times for free throws
Asking who is the better player between Shaq and Duncan is a tough one, but asking who is the better center? Shaq by a mile.
Center is a stacked position over the history of the game. Personally, Hakeem is my favorite center so I admit my bias there. That being said, the next 3 are too close to judge. Wilt, Shaq, and Kareem are all phenomenal and different players. Regardless, no player has been more unstoppable than Shaq (maybe Wilt, but due to the rules of his era, Wilt was not allowed to physically move defenders like Shaq was even if he was similarly capable).
Shaq's weaknesses were foul shooting (a weakness Wilt also suffered from) and mobility (for his size he was incredibly nimble, but in the NBA his overall speed/quickness was slow compared to those around him). These weaknesses only came into question when matched with an extremely athletic center like Hakeem and even then it was never a lopsided contest (as your stats demonstrate). If Hakeem could outplay shaq on offense with quickness and touch, Shaq could bully Hakeem (or anyone) in the paint. Hakeem had the perfect combo of size, strength, coordination and quickness. He was simply the more complete player, which puts him above Shaq, in my mind, but only just above him.
No one was strong enough to stop Shaq, ever. No current player is even a comparison. Sure guys like Embiid and Jokic are good, but they need to build their resumes to compete with Shaq. It's not impossible that they could surpass him, but, under the rules of the era Shaq played in, neither could stop him. At best, like Hakeem, they could play their game to such a high level so as to counter balance Shaq, but they could not stand toe to toe with him. Era and playoffs are also very important as you have made clear.
Hakeem, Kareem, Wilt, Bill, Shaq.
Pretty easy to understand
Thank you !
Unlike Stephen you like myself aren’t influenced by the presence of Shaq and his money like Stephen is . Two towering figures dominating everyone’s conscience and perspective in today’s nba !!
I wouldn't rank Embiid over Shaq either, but you overlooked a major part of Bill Simmons' point. His take wasn't just about 35ppg being higher. He focused heavily on reliability in the cluch - especially free throw shooting. Being reliable at the end of games has immense impact on a player's value on the court. That's a very valid point.
Yeah, but despite Embiid being a better FT shooter, I wouldn't say he was more clutch than Shaq.
@@shorewall Totally fair - Embiid's playoff performance leaves a lot to be desired.
Shaq does it to himself. He says guys like curry and Kobe are better than him when they aren’t even close
Attributing the increase in scoring (and most other major statistical categories) to "inflation" makes it seem like there is something independent from the players responsible for the increase. There's an increase in scoring because teams (and players) are simply better at scoring. It's not as though the games got longer or a 4 point line was added to make scoring higher. I understand wanting to appreciate the greatness of players from the past based on how the league was at that time, but lets not act like Embiid scoring 35ppg and being serious candidate for MVP this season isn't comparable to Shaq's best seasons.
Embiid is very talented and a skilled center. But I’m not even putting him in a comparison until he performs well past a 2nd round
Why is Hakeem so disrespected? All time leader in blocks (I'll admit that Kareem would be the leader if they kept those stats his first 4 years), and still top 10 all time in steals! And the Dream Shake was unstoppable. Same with the baseline fadeaway. He is easily in this convo, if not at the top. He is the best defender by far out of all these guys, and he fits right in offensively as well. With space in today's game he would face up, one dribble, dunk/layup/FT every time. Cat Quick and excellent footwork. Hell, he beat Shaq and Penny in the Finals. He has more total rebounds that Shaq, and a higher per game average. You could add Shaq's steals and blocks together, and Hakeem still has more blocks than that total. Besides, Shaq is a walking offensive foul. Couldn't do anything except turn and throw an elbow. Either that or walk you back from 10 feet out, which is also an offensive foul. Lebron rightfully takes crap for his travels and flops, why is Shaq untouchable with offensive fouls? I love him off the court, but he got a way with a ton of illegal stuff on the court.
From a lifelong fan ... It's the free throw shooting. It takes him down. Just being honest
Personally I’d say Shaq is anywhere from 4-6th best C depending on how you view him v Hakeem, and Tim Duncan’s position. I do think Kareem, Wilt, and Russell are all greater though.
I’d personally say 5. I’d put Hakeem up and Duncan as PF.
Screaming A. Smith having a shouting match with Mad Dog Joe Pesci is epic! 😂
Amen Preach It !!!
I remember in 2019 watching a similar video of kobe oh man the media is disgusting in burying Kobe's legacy and he didn't even pass yet I still think he's a disrespected legend idc he's in my top 10 without hesitation
Agreed. You could make the case for top 5
@@Ssjangel3 alright
Kobe definitely not top 10
Shaq just charged and dunk
He was the Goat of it
The most dominant Charger of all time
Also, if you can say that Wilt was taller than everybody else, then they should also say that Shaq was bigger and stronger than everybody else. Then use that against him too
My takeaway? ESPN had a production meeting to discuss what on-air personality would adopt the inflammatory stance that their producers came up with to get people talking about the show.
Calling Shaq bipolar is so damn funny yet true
Free throw argument was a good point. Still shaqs the man
omg... very good video!
Averaging 34 is still crazy. The disrespect on Harden is unbelievable.
Shaq was great. My two big problems with him were.
1) work ethic
2) concern about his image
They tried to get him to do the granny free throw shot, and he said he’d never do it, because of how it looked. Even if it would’ve added 5-10 points per game for him, he wasn’t willing to do everything it took to win
Stephen A was constantly dissing NBA legends long before JJ Reddick got a ESPN gig.
The game has changed and the defence, the rules and the spacing has changed so very much.
I definitely have Hakeem above Shaq, because I believe Hakeem had the skills so do what he did in any era, and in today’s era could do even more than he did in his own, as he could guard anybody on the court, shoot from outside, and bring all his great defensive paint havoc.