As an enthusiast of both Warhammer and historicals, I would like to apologise on behalf of the numpty in the shop. I would also like to say that every genre of wargame has its elitist crowds and not every group that say they are open and welcoming are in fact open and welcoming.
😆On behalf of histircal players, thank you. IN all seriousness though, its not a characterisation that I think can be applied to any genre in particular. I should have added in the video that I have had lots of conversations with non-histroical players in similar stores over the years, and this guys reaction was an exception.
@@MiniatureAdventuresTV there are certain groups of gamers, some of them quite famous CZcamsrs, who do not like their "accepted" historical views being challenged. Take the age old "Lions led by Donkeys" debate on WW1 leadership for example. Heaven help you if you dare to accuse any WW1 officer of being anything other than a true professional of flawless character. You will get a flea in your ear, even though it seems obvious to most that the abilities of officers differed drastically from one individual to another.
For every Napoleonic button counter pontificating on the suitability of that particular lace at Wagram, there must be 100 gatekeepers of a certain game getting their knickers in a twist over lady space marines. Unpleasant pedants are everywhere.
You're comparing apples to oranges. Female Space Marines are like having Wellington at Guadalcanal. It doesn't fit in the fluff. It's not pedantic to hold to background anchorpoints to maintain its verisimilitude. Having those solid foundations (especially in fiction) make any contradictions easier to justify. No one is saying that anyone can't MODEL FSM for themselves, the issue comes from those who want GW to change decades old foundational writing in order to cater to the identity politics of the 'modern audience'; then when you push back against their narcissistic viewpoints, you are called the usual "fascist, racist, sexist, etc" all which are of course demonstrably false. This is not the same as button/rivet counting or lace snobbery. Those are modeling issues, not fluff/background/history issues, of which, if it were just a question of modeling very few have ever had an issue with people building FSM for their own enjoyment. If someone wanted to put M1 helmets on 1810 KGL because it would be fun, let them, if however they became insistent that KGL were on the beach at Normandy and fighting in line formation, and that anyone that disagreed with them was an -ist/phone, and that the history books are all wrong and needed to be changed to cater to their particular viewpoint, don't you think that would be met with the same sort of pushback as those who want official FSM? This is what the issue is, not whatever glib and dismissive statement you made about gatekeepers would portray.
@@JPGotrokkitsoh GIVE OVER 😂 You're talking about 40k, which has retconned more lore than EVERY Sci fi and fantasy universe COMBINED! 😂 You're just scared that your precious childish macho stroppy fantasy eunuchs will start getting shown up by a bunch of girls. 😂
@@JPGotrokkitsits been canon since the 80s mate, Little Sisters of Battle Chapter of Space Marines. Calm down, no one knows or cares what body parts are under the sick power armour. I could say I had a Chapter where every marine was renamed Shirley, and Im sure some people who get screaming level upset at me and most people would either chuckle or groan then carry on playing with the toy soldiers in our fun silly space game
I imagine the shop clerks idea of an "elitist" is someone who is not interested in the games they have to offer. What is actually down to personal preferences, can be construed by some as being a snob or looking down on others. Ironically, the clerk was being elitist himself by writing off players of another genera different than his own.
I play Bolt Action and love the WW2 history, I also play occasionally 40K and love the background fluff. For me however it comes down to price and 40K is smegging expensive to get in to and Bolt Action is pretty reasonable to buy a starter army for the same price as a single vehicle model from 40K
It's certainly a bit of the coffee calling the kettle black there on that one (if it is the chain of shops I'm thinking of). I may get hate for this but I don't think he's 100% wrong however. In the last 2 year I've been moving away from sci-fi gaming due to the elitist nature of that crowd I've encountered, where you have to play with that companies official models or you can't play in tournaments, you have to play the most recent edition or you can't play, you have to play with the most recent rules updates or you can't play. Basically unless you're buying the most recent product you just can't play. And I'm at a point in my life (early 30's) where I want things to slow down. But equally getting into historical wargaming as someone who is younger I've definitely felt a bit of isolation and elitism finding groups as I don't fit into the majority of players in my area (mainly due being several decades younger and having quite different life experiences from most historical wargamers I've met). I know that the outward attitude of both groups is 'everyone is welcome to come and join' and that is great but it's still difficult to break into that when what's actually being said is 'everyone is welcome to join so long as you join on our terms'.
Yes, you've highlighted some of the different kinds of elitism that occur in various places and I don't think one part of the hobby suffers from this problem more than any other. Cost of gear, quality of painting, scale of models and chosen rule sets are all used by some people to exclude others and it can be hard to fight against.
I've found the single genre players more elitist than the multi-genre players. I'm sure it is the former type that the shop assistant was thinking of. And, yes, it is a case of the pot calling the kettle black where his company is concerned. Having said that, my trips to buy their paints usually are pleasant exchanges when I tell them what I am painting, Short, but pleasant.
Hi Lee; huge topic this. Being on the far side of the world, it has been my experience from shows in particular, that the 'Dark Side' gamers are the ones who refuse to engage with anyone not into their genre to the point of rudeness, while the historical gamers are the ones who will go out of their way to engage with all & sundry to try & infect them with their love of the game. It all boils down to whether one is into multiple facets of wargaming or single minded with tunnel vision.
Nice discussion point, Lee, and of course I’m grinning because clearly, that person in the store had no idea that ALL the founders of Games Workshop were-and still are-historical wargamers too! You should point them at my interviews with Rick P, the Perry twins, Alessio Cavatore… And as has been said by others, there are ‘gatekeepers’ on both sides of the (really non-existent) divide.
Before I learned of Warhammer (fantasy or 40K) I learned about wargaming from a second-cousin/uncle of mine. He has a Napoleonic Army and Zulus. I once asked him about Warhammer that was advertised in one of his books he let me read and he said: "It's also a wargame but you can't take it seriously!" Hehe, I put that down to him being older is all! I now play Warhammer Fantasy. I must say, I have had a few games with my uncle and enjoyed it thoroughly - it's fantastic how long the games take. He stays in another province so I've not played often unfortunately.
I've played Fantasy, sci-fi and historical wargames and they are all fun and absorbing genres. I mostly plays historical games now because that is what I m interested in, but I wouldn't dream of mocking players of other genres. Its certainly not a generalisation I would apply to any one group of players, just a handful of individuals.
@@MiniatureAdventuresTVyou find the "funny attitudes" everywhere. My main hobby is model railways and even here, certain people buy ONLY certain brands and also mock those who would "dare" mix prototypes etc. I admit, I enjoy being realistic and operations, but, like you, would never mock what brings someone else joy.
I play historicals and fantasy, and historical gamers tend to be way more laid back. It helps being in my 40s and most of them are in their 70s and 80s who are super excited to see "young people" getting involved. I love picking their brains about arcane historical facts. Hopefully, I will be that guy some day. lol
The hobby as a whole I don't see as elitist, but there is a sizeable section, in my experience, that look down on fantasy or sci-fi and specifically anything to do with a certain high street games store. I am happy gaming across many genres and time periods. Not everybody is, but there is no reason to cock a snook at another person's gaming choice to their face. I encountered that attitude when first visiting the local club. The members were happy playing their own games and were not very welcoming. Eventually, the more eclectic gamers started another night that became more popular and led to an expansion of the club.
Yes, I recognise that. I know a few historical players who wouldn't touch fantasy or sci-fi with a barge pole. Personally I think they are missing a trick, but each to their own.
@@MiniatureAdventuresTV- Wouldn’t touch Warhammer with a bargepole, because (a) it’s vastly overpriced; (b) it’s an overcomplicated, unsatisfying game. Am I elitist? LoL.
Very entertaining and well reasoned video. I've had the same experience on the few occasions I've been in the same stores. Once they know they can't sting you for their latest incarnation of the same thing they've been churning out they have no interest in engaging with you. Shame really and I find it's the hard core gamers from that part of the hobby that are the real elitists.
I feel historical gaming is the most affordable form of tabletop gaming. From rules to figures. The fact that you cannot play in the “high street” store with anything but their product line says it all.
I would love to have an 'historical' games shop in the high street... I'd never be bored while shopping again. The wife could drop me off (like leaving a kid at a Crèche) do her shopping and pick me up when she's finished. Maybe my mind is more 'fantasy' oriented than I thought 🤣
@@MiniatureAdventuresTV- Ah, but would you play if you could only use infantrymen that the store’s firm supplied at £5 each (compared to £1 each for non-proprietary infantrymen)?
I am grateful to GW as in my late 30's I got into wargaming when my son was playing 40K. Always had an interest but not done anything about it. Then, I moved on to play historicals and never looked back. My experience is that historical players are keen to share their knowledge and encourage people to have a go. I think some GW staff fear losing customers to other systems due the price difference.
When I first read your title I thought, what on earth is this all about?! Now I've listened to your video, I can completely see why you felt the need to upload a video like this. It's funny, when I grew up in Leicester and played at the GW store, I always felt intimidated and that the workers/players were very elitist, almost like a boys club ... outsiders just ruined the fun. Granted I was 14 and only wanted to play LOTR on very little money. Fast forward 16 years and only playing historical wargaming, I very rarely feel that. Does that mean we don't have some elitist in our community? Absolutely not, you get them no matter what end of the wargaming scale you play. I think some people just have a real chip on their shoulder but for every one of those, there is normally a great handful that don't and simply play for the fun of it. I generally find that most historical wargamers are playing because they love history and don't care if they win but just want to share stories of whatever period they play. Great video mate and it really got me thinking.
It was a bit of a clickbaity title, but completely unintentional I promise 😆. I'm glad it gave you some food for thought (and loads of interesting discussion in the comments), that is what my Talking Point videos are designed to do.
haha definitely not mate, I really enjoyed the video and the title is perfect! You've made a great video here and I'm loving the comments.@@MiniatureAdventuresTV
There those types (elitists) in every group of enthusiasts. Very unfortunate you were treated that way at an "Upper East Midlands Corporation" store. Obviously, he hasn't looked at some of their competitive players. I should know, I worked for the bloody company for 8 long years! I'd say that was a lot calling the kettle black situation since they call their entire game collection a "hobby" unto itself and separate from the rest of the miniature wargaming hobby in general! If that's not elitist, I don't know what is!
Good topic! Historical wargamers need tough hides these days (always). Recently, the accusation of being closet Nazis, now we're elitists. Let's go back to the 70s when the media portrayed us as strange elderly men who hadn't quite grown up.
I take the view that whether you play with Orcs, Space Marines or Landsknecht's we are all Wargamers. May people play more that one genre and many play just one. No one is doing it wrong, they are all just enjoying themselves. Sadly a few people are less open minded, but that isn't limited to just one group.
As someone with a foot in both camps (Warhammer and Historical Gaming) I understand where the assumption has come from however it is incorrect. I have found that the Gatekeepers shout a lot but are definitely a small minority of both sides. I think both sides have been very open, welcoming, helpful and encouraging of the hobby and I like to take my love of History into my 40k world and my love of the uniqueness that you can create from 40k into my historical armies.
I did a video a couple of weeks agio where I said everyone's hobby is different and that's all ok. If you enjoy what you are playing then no one should ever tell you you're doing it wrong.
I completely agree with you. At the end of the day, it's a hobby, and we're all supposed to have fun doing it. Different people enjoy different things so let's just all get along and enjoy our hobby in our preferred way
Back in the day, I think I was in my late 20's, I was a young guy with a serious history addiction and I was in this Yahoo group on the LaceWars - Age of Enlightenment, 17th to 18th Century Wars. At the start people were friendly and I was just commenting here and there on topics and for some reason - I don't know if it was because I was asking for help finding Order of Battle information or something, some of these older researchers/wargamers suddenly became very hostile to me. They were like "we spent YEARS researching this stuff and you want us to just hand it over" - like what you said. Still remember one of them, the go to guy on the Great Northern Wars, Dan Schorr. Schorr was a real jerk to me. I soon left that forum, but it became just one more reason I came to distance myself from and hate being close to other people. I called them out of course, said that if they were a33holes to younger gamers and researchers then their stupid hobby would die a well deserved death and good riddance to them. Dan Schorr apparently died in 2021. I'm not sorry that he died. He was a real d1ck toward me and he didn't care at all. Since then I've become a historical researcher and commentator in my own right and in my own niche. I still love the LaceWars passionately. And I hope that I do more to ENCOURAGE younger people through positive interactions than drive them away by being a selfish jerk that's more concerned with hoarding knowledge than sharing it.
I think there maybe an element of perception, UK side of things many gamers start with a GW Warhammer AoS or 40k. After a while they discover other wargames and a lot of them are more engaging but still simple rules systems. Bolt Action, Saga, Rampant series, Warlords Black Powder and various Ospreys in high st stores. Suddenly a historical gamer enjoying the games more stops playing Warhammer for a historical game. I suspect with a bit more of a conversation that the guy in the store had an experience of a long term friend Warhammer player, now playing only the other games because he's enjoying them more and it was a personal response arising from that he no longer gets to play with his friend. Due to the constant edition creep there;s been a few youtubers droping Warhammer for alternatives for the past year or two and whilst GW is in no danger I think will be a trend to continue.
If you ain't a potential mark, GW ain't interested and the sooner you leave their store, the better. At least that's seems to be their sales training. As far as historical gamers being elitist, meh, who really cares? Play what you like how you like. Insufferable people will usually find themselves alone soon enough.
As I said in my video, I'm not making a judgement about the shop or the people in it (everyone was having a good time and thats what counts). I was just surprised (and disappointed) to encounter the stereotype in 2024.
Clearly the attitude of apparent elitism comes from a feeling of inadequacy? I can't imagine someone with their head screwed on straight can look at the GW product and think 'yes, this is it, this is the best'!
😂 nope that’s about what I got when I went in there (I suspect I know where you went) first and foremost “there is no arguing with stupid”. So well done. Personally I fly in and out of a lot of wargaming periods etc. I’ve had fun with all. Fortunately, currently I am placed in a position where I can do it all, if I can with out “stupid” and can still wax lyrical with cool people like yourself that actual help. Great content big L and well done
I'd say any aspect for the hobby, or any hobby come to that, can be elitist. I know an RPG-er who looks down on "toy soldier" games and a table-topper who constantly disparages anything involving "wizards." Aside from that 99% of gamers I know enjoy both, and other types of game too! The same even goes way back when RPGs and fantasy games first started coming in in the late 70s. Most were happy to try both, the small minority looked down their noses. At then end of it, we are all playing games and, as you say, by and large people are welcoming
@@MiniatureAdventuresTV I don't think it's really any more common in wargaming compared to other hobbies. I used to be big record collector- just the same.
Most wargamers I’ve encountered in sci-fi/fantasy or historicals have been nice, decent folks. There are some who will point out anachronisms or paint jobs not fully in line with history (or the lore for sci-fi/fantasy) but most do that assuming everyone shares their passion to be fully consistent, and if you note that that isn’t your end goal and you and happy with your current work, most of those folks will drop it. There are some overly zealous types (the so-called “rivet counters”) who think they have to either convert you or drive you from the hobby but luckily that is a very small minority and are usually easily ignored. In my experience there are more of that type in the WW2 gaming community but still a minority overall.
In general I haven’t found historical wargamers to be elitist, most are engaging and very willing to share information. Their interests, and my own, do however tend to narrow the potential conversation quickly. There is still common ground to be explored and discussed, but it needs to be approached in a more considered way. For example if you play a set of rules that is different, or a scale that is less common, conversations often becomes harder more quickly. This can be perceived as elitist I suppose.
Some of the things with it is also a context situation. Locally, there was a group of players that were playing the Hasbro/WotC Axis and Allies minis game and then went into Bolt Action and Flames of War when the original games ended, I remember that they were not happy at all with some of the weird war stuff that the store ended up stocking them. It came off as elitist...however, a big chunk of it was more of that large group having started out as a generational thing that continues where a lot of the original core were some WW2 vets and their kids/grandkids, and they kind of felt more of the speculative stuff as semi-disrespectful. They'd complain about it and not touch it, some of the kids did start playing the WWW stuff as well before I ended up shifting to a newer games store that opened a lot closer to me. Historicals also spread out a lot more than the fantasy/scifi side of things with different things having different takes on it, and a lot of the Napoleonic and similar tend to pull in a LOT more button counters and shade watchers than things like westerns, vikings, and samurai. At the same time, a lot of those bigger battle gamers tend to also be the ones to go through massive piles of research into it that is a nightmare in and of itself.
I do historical and fantasy periods and I don't think historical is any more prone to elitism than fantasy or sci-fi. I believe the non - historical periods have a similar share of 'rivet counters' and snobs to historical wargamers, though not a big proportion in either case. I believe some WH, WH40K and AoS players might well turn their nose up at playing KoW, Reaper, MESB, Traveller etc. without necessarily having a specific reason for it. I understand that GW have a policy of banning non-official figures from competition games which doesn't sound particularly inclusive to me.
Last trip to a Warhammer shop (Croydon) the chap asked me what I was painting and I said ancient Celts. He seemed quite interested in that and was also aware of other non-GW games (think I mentioned Frostgrave). He was very helpful, introducing me to liqud greenstuff, which I bought. No sign of elitism/exclusivity there!
" ... didn't like historical players ..." - be interesting to see the sales figures for that particular store clerk. 100 New Zealand wargamers painted some 5,000 miniature soldiers for a huge diorama of the Battle of Chunuk Bair. Asd part of the painting team, I shopped at workshop. They were more than happy to sell me paints and brushes.
I think it was just one individual, probably overworked and stressed, with a blinkered view of the 'other side' of the hobby. I certainly don't think its their business model to be rude to customers. I wasn't in there to buy stuff, maybe he picked up on that and felt like I wasting his time?? Who knows.
I’ve met a very small minority of people on both sides of the camp, who are dismissive about genres outside their narrow interests. I enjoy virtually all forms of gaming. There is no way to be doing your hobby wrong!
I play historicals and scifi (not from the store you had this experience from though) and I’ve never found historical players as a rule, very welcoming. I’m a little more intimidated by the store you mention, although to be fair I’ve had plenty of positive experiences there as I feel totally ignorant of the lore and background they all seem seeped in. These opinionated people exist unfortunately in all parts of the hobby but are very much in a minority.
I agree. People can be very knowledgeable, but it comes down to how you express that knowledge. It is nothing unique about historical wargamers - the only thing I think what has contributed to the idea that historical gamers are "elitist", is that they have a larger amount of grognards (not a bad thing), and they know their games are not popular, and it shows.
"Existential battle for the honor of our hobby"! Love it! This was an excellent topic. In addressing the viewpoint (and, poor customer service) of the shop clerk, I'm in agreement with Lee. Historical wargaming isn't *necessarily* elitist. I think there exist perceptions and some real barriers that may shape our hobby into something that looks esoteric, inaccessible, and, thus, "elitist". Historical wargamers enjoy history (obviously) and like *learning* about history. Unfortunately the studying and learning about anything remotely academic is sometimes seen as elitist. There may be a feeling among some non-historical wargamers that historical wargaming can only be the purview of credentialed scholars - which we all know just isn't the case. The only "necessary requirements" for being a historical war gamer are a love of reading, a love of history, a love of miniatures (and often painting), and - arguably - a willingness to debate scale sizes. 🙂 I think historical wargaming's lack of as strong of a presence in the public square also contributes to the "elitist" perception. While it seems to me that the UK is the land of milk and honey regarding historical wargaming and historical clubs (one day I will visit this Promised Land), I have never gotten that impression living in the US. It wasn't until the advent of Flames of War until I noticed "mainstream" hobby centers carrying anything approaching historical gaming. But Warhammer and 40K *always* had a strong presence in these places. People can often be seen playing the games at these hobby centers, which shows that there is a community to join. In my (limited) experience, historical wargaming clubs aren't the easiest thing track down (though the internet helps). A lack of presence and difficulty to find can make historical wargaming appear mysterious and inaccessible. Finally, a lack of ready access to history and military history books (along with the perception that one must read a ton of books) may contribute to some being able to access and/or further their interest in historical wargaming. Non-historical wargaming has a (seemingly) finite amount of books that need to be purchased in order to play and understand the game. And they are readily available. Again, the lack of a public presence hurts awareness of and access to historical wargaming and can contribute to the perception of elitism. At best, "name" bookstores (and there are precious few of those) would have fairly tiny military history sections with books that often covered a period or war in a sweeping, "big picture" way (which makes sense if you're to have a small section). Good/large public libraries may have much more variety (but then does one live in an area with good libraries?). If one is lucky enough to work for a university, which often means access to the university library and the libraries of other universities, then the sky is the limit! But we can see that the percentage of a given population who can take advantage of these gets smaller and smaller. If a smaller population has access, it definitely contributes to that population as being elitist. In all the above these are social and environmental situations that contribute to the charge of "elitism". I have never encountered historical wargamers who wished to *intentionally* exclude me - and the true elitist is intentionally exclusionary. I've found that historical wargamers are more than happy to bring someone "into the fold" - particularly if you share an interest in their favorite period. One time I had someone essentially give me enough 25mm French Napoleonics to field an army! The majority of us are not elitist. And, Lee, if you were to produce a tee shirt which stated something along the lines of "Big Lee...Warrior in the existential battle for the honor of historical wargaming", I would definitely buy it. 😛
It is a diffict one, and I now wonder if I am an elitist historical wargamer as I am only interested in horse & musket periods. It is also easy to sound elitist with history, I remember being asked by shop assistant in a highstreet games shop what I gamed, my answer was The War of the Austrian Succession. I can understand now how that could sound pompous, but it was, is a simple truth.
Unfortunately you could mention almost any historical period, & many of the 'Dark Side' gamers wouldn't know what you were talking about - not pompous, just shows you have a depth of historical knowledge that they don't.
But there's nothing wrong with specialising. Realistically, taking part in all historical wargame eras would break most budgets and take a huge amount of time,
The group Im in play fantasy to historical. Enthusiasm is pretty balanced across it all. We are 30ish to 60+ in age and age doesn't determine interest. History as well as fictional game world lore and all round nerd chatting ensues.
Sadly, even within my own club, I find a certain elitist behaviour especially amongst older player's versus that certain mainstreet company. They often go like "that's rubbish, you should play *insert whatever non that company fantasy rule set here* instead" even though I never actually saw them physically play a game of that ruleset ever. The, and this might sound a bit cruel, thing though in the past decade is that these sort of players are (unfortunatly sometimes literally, because I don't wish anything bad on anybody) starting to die out.
It may be a generational thing. Newer gamers (in all genres) have 'grown' into a hobby that is more diverse and has more choices than say 30-40 years ago. That being said, I've never belonged to a formal club as such (the Rejects are a group of mates rather than a club) so maybe my view is biased because of that.
I mean, everyone is playing with plastic army people, sci fi, army, whatever. Grown men playing with toys in essence. Any kind of eliteism is kinda silly. I have only engaged with friends and family so far, but other people I know who have played similar fgames and found them all down to earth. My big tip into historicals was in that other games systems cost of entry.
The shop clerk really missed a great opportunity to talk to you about what games you enjoy and then discuss products he offered that might interest given your tastes. I've been blessed to not meet many elitists in any branch of wargaming, and the few i have met were spread out between any system and never seemed attached to be a symptom of any one system in particular. Granted ive known some people that are very passionate about their system and want to tell you how much better it is than anything else but theyre easy enough to ignore 😂
Kind of hard to when "that big high street retailer" doesn't carry anything useful for historicals, aside from the odd paint or basing sand, which can be had elsewhere for a better price.
I think the issue with historical wargaming isn't anything to do with the game, it's more to do with "grumpy old man" syndrome. Older gents who are stuck in their ways and have lost all sense of flexibility or manouverability to accept that the times have changed. A 50 year old and a 20 year old probably wont have a lot in common, but the 50 year old should have the grace and wisdom to check their attitude so that the 20 year old isn't put off the hobby or shunned from the store. My local club is full of more mature members and they are an absolute delight. Flexible, considerate and open minded, with the social experience to engage with "the youth" and make them feel welcome. It's not the case everywhere, which is a shame. Note that this situation doesnt take into consideration people just acting like prats. That's not the purpose of this comment.
I'm reaching 'grumpy old man' territory, but I like to think I'm open minded, welcoming and encouraging to new players. Its one of the reasons I enjoy running demo games at shows.
i do not play historicals myself. but i have never met a elitist from the group. I prefer fantasy and sci fi games. I am sure your side has asshats as well as ours. I suggest gate keeping and keep the hobbies fun and inviting to those who are not gonna make it a bad experience for everyone else.
For sure there are elitest elements in the hobby. By this I mean closed groups with no public facing means of contacting them who exclusively stage games by invitation only. I can see how easy it is to slip into that way of gaming, especially when you have a long standing group of friends with their own private premises that they can use to host their games. If that's the way you prefer to game it needs to be counter balanced by also actively promoting a public presence, be that at wargames shows or via social media. Otherwise how are potential new members going to find and join your group and prevent it from fading away. Thankfully the overwhelming majority of people I've ever encountered in the hobby realise this. In summary there's a nugget of truth in the store assistant's statement but it doesn't make it factually accurate.
Hey Big Lee! Hummmmm... Elitist?! I don't think so. Self-sorting... yes. I suppose though, that in a wider world view... having ANY kind of time to even HAVE a hobby, instead of all of our time absorbed in making a living, could be considered elitist! I consider time spent in self-awareness & self-enrichment is time well spent.
Totally agree with the comments that there are elitists everywhere. You'd have thought that the salesperson would have suggested a product that would particularly appeal to historical wargamers. With regard to Volley & Bayonet and the War of the First Coalition, my book includes a Castiglione scenario for V&B. I took the game to Salute last year using DBN but you can see the V&B version here czcams.com/video/QZgwBE_QATc/video.html. Always enjoy your videos Lee, thanks.
Historical gamers can be seen as elitist, because they are so few. It's a point of perspective and has in my opinion nothing to do with behaviour. The salesman in my GW had previously worked as a translator for Napoleonic board games. The idea of the elite never came up. 😄
One of the main reasons I've started my own channel about historical wargaming is to get more people to play. In my humble opinion historical wargaming is not elitist, people who behave like dickheads and gatekeepers are. ;-)
Nope. Just people that love the game. Just not everyone have the same spending power. I love all the genre. I just trying to tell myself, discipline, discipline when I see another mini collection that I drool over
Go to a historical war gaming event and you can count the number of women on one hand. the children that are there are kids of people who already play historical games. Historical wargaming is an old white guys club. most historical war games are not even marketed to people who don't already play a war game of some kind. plenty of individual players can be welcoming and inviting but historical war gaming as a whole is like a walled garden.
What’s more “elitist”? Buying cheap figures from a slew of periods and manufacturers before studying the history and army lists for free in the library or on line? Or buying grossly overpriced “factions”, codexes and lore from a single, monopolistic company? Personally I reckon you should do whatever makes you happy and let others do the same.
Historical wargaming requires a certain person, that's why it might feel elitist. Games based on big fictional I.P.'s like Warhammer or Dungeons and Dragons can do whatever to broaden their appeal to the public, they are the owners. With historicals you can mostly attract people who are already interested in history. You cannot tradmark the napoleonic wars. Writing history books into your roolebooks would make little sense. So you nees a person who is already educated in history or knows where to find more information when entering into a new period. In that way - yea it may be elitist as it's not a hobby designet for the masses but for people with particular interests. Is that a bad thing? Don't think so. Not everything has to be for everyone. There is nothing wrong in having a niche. I mean- I don't go to people who play Warhammer 40K, ask them would they be interesed in playing a 7 years War game and if they refuse calling them immature, uneducated and unsufisticated because they would rather play with space men on steroid instead of playing with guys with powderd wigs and muskets. So I think that is the problem that guy had- that he could not sell anything. That's why they do have broad appeal- to sell stuff.
I think I do have some sympathy with the elitist comment. Over the years I have seen/heard quite a few historical gamers express the view that fantasy/sci-fi gamers (usually aimed at GW games) would "grow up" and move to historicals meaning they definitely saw/see non-historical games as a lesser version of wargaming ("childish" is often used by these people). On the positive side these people are a minority and a declining one in my experience.
To be honest, those guys should be careful what they wish for. Without a healthy amount of gatekeeping those guys would be begging for the mass market to leave and stop ruining their hobby. I've seen it happen many times before in other hobbies.
I suppose you might call me an elitist gamer: a rare thing going by the comments here. And no, I don’t mean because of my knighthood. Back at my university club we saw some of the first coherent SciFi/ Fantasy games emerge, several decades ago, just as GW was creating a market for itself. Most of us refused to get involved in that “nonsense”, despite being avid SciFi fans. What would be the point? Why simulate something that is pure fiction? Not only were the rules rubbish at the time, the figures were too. (I painted a handful for fun, but they never once saw the table.) As a club we tolerated SciFi games, just as we tolerated military board gamers. Indeed we welcomed them openly. After all, one day some of these poor misguided souls might one day be tempted over to the “normal” side of gaming, for that’s what it was at the time. (I later learned that one of our club members, a published military historian, later went over to the dark side and became a GW staffer. Poor chap.) Decades later, and I’ve still never played a SciFi/Fantasy game, though I’ve watched a few and not generally been impressed. In that time my knowledge of history and human culture has grown ever deeper thanks to the toehold given by historical gaming. So glad I never wasted my time pondering Nurgle carbuncles and the temptations of the Slaneesh. P.S. Am currently considering taking up a game called Gaslands - basically, Mad Max on the table top. It’ll be my first faltering step into the world of SciFi/Fantasy gaming (well, second after “What A Tanker!”).
Bolt Action is very popular now! Im not sure what time-frame counts as 'historical' - WW2 ended almost 80 years ago and is 'historic'. People seem to want to recruit more players/collectors! Warhammer can be VERY elitist !!.....some people will rip you to bits for getting warhammer lore wrong or asking for advice etc. Bolt action is far more affordabe too. There are elitist in all hobbies. Historical wargaming is not one I recognise
In the near 20 years of being an historical wargamer I have yet to encounter any gatekeeper or elitist in that gaming sphere. The only problems I have encountered were from people who came over from games workshop games and brought with them their poor sport attitudes and other baggage. Now I have played in both bubbles and I have found the games workshop one to be the most toxic I have ever seen. I've been accosted numerous times when picking up a box of 40k or age of sigmar because I was interested in painting the contents only to be told by those around me that unit sucked and I should put it down and get this instead or that instead. Then when I said I just paint what I like and could care less about rules or this and that and they always would get real snippy and angry as if I committed some grand sin. Its because of that problem I stopped buying warhammer in person and ultimately stopped in general. Wasn't worth the annoyance of constantly dealing with children. I will say that I hope historical gamers do gate keep the games workshop kids. I don't want their toxicity to infect historical gaming. They can have their space marines and overpriced lore. I will stick with History and be the better for it.
Good point. I took it to mean, acting superior because of the specialist knowledge required, and looking down or talking down those entering the hobby. As I said, its not a characterisation I recognise, but maybe I misinterpreted what the guy was driving at.
So explain the difference between historical,fantasy and sci-fi. Isn’t it just the look of the minis? I play 40K,ECW & WW2 and Frostgrave. All are just games with rules and soldiers. It’s just semantics at the end of the day. Though I do prefer historical games as I find historical players are less elitist. 😂
Lee, I do agree with your points on wargaming as an elitist endeavour. Still, I can understand that players who might be looking for an entry point into historical wargames might feel unwelcomed or pushed away, that historical wargaming appears to be a book with seven locks for which you need to have studied the most unknown aspects of any and all periods out there for thirty years. I believe, the problems are these: 1) There are so many periods, scales, rulesets and commiting to the hobby needs you to make the hard decision to put a considerable amount of money down, paint all the minis up and find someone to actually play with, if you manage to keep your spirits high and finish potentially at least two armies. Unless you have a club around which actually does invite new players and provides them a smooth approach, letting them watch and make their own decision, once they feel comfortable enough. 2) This can easily be perceived as an entry barrier and be reinforced by folks who post their personal most favourite game and scale, even if it is not quite entry friendly at all. Sometimes you end up with 90% of these kinds of answers even though someone asked for an explicitly entry-level point to start wargaming. Or they react annoyed and preachingly, if someone who appears less well read as they fancy themselves tries to engage in the debate. Now, those are the grumpy old gatekeepers you mentioned. And to some degree it's relatable, because they have gone through point 1) themselves and are now not willing to consider something else as eligible. 3) This is a shame. But as you also mentioned, many wargamers are very welcoming, encouraging and supportive. I especially had that experience with the international community of practitioners, who are super keen to share insights and hint you to information. I am always wondering why that is, because academic sort of communities tend to be exclusive in many cases. Maybe I just have a screwed pespective from subjective experiences, but it is truely delighting. Now, the problem is, that, with social media and the internet being what it is, those with the strongest opinions tend to bloke the loudest. I want to encourage the welcoming majority to show up and kindly remind the outliers that we share a hobby and enthusiasm and we can all only profit from new minds and perspectives in the hobby, that nobody is going to take away their old rules they love with all their heart, because the hobby is about doing what we love. 4) Speaking of barriers and approachability, a considerable amount of rules aren't very entry-friendly. Because, again, they use to be written by folks with lots of experience who simply can't see that someone who is new to the period or game will have a hart time figuring out what they are used to doing for years. Again, partly not their fault. Though, partly it is. I want to vouch for doing more playtesting, especially blind playtesting with groups from different backgrounds. Again, people are eager to help, if you ask them. Furthermore, get yourself a developer who is not you, not even a close friend, who doesn't shy away from tearing your game apart, even if you put all your love into it and think the way it is is the only way it should be. Indeed, you must be strong, able to reflect. But nobody said game design was an easy task. Yet, you should definitely give it a go, even if it is just adding houserules to some existing games. Don't shy away from "stealing" ideas from others, that's how progress works. Taking promissing bits, adding some ingredients and improve to the next level. I realize that I have written a strange wall of text that might sound presumptious. It is certainly not intended to do so. I am sharing my experiences and impressions and recognize those of others as equally valid. It is this exchange that will help us become better, as persons even. Thus, thank you for initiating these debates, Lee. I want to end with the observation that there is change, it is slow, as always, but it is there. And that is a beautiful thing.
Interesting set of comments. Personally, ive never played Warhammer, or any other "fantasy" figure wargames, literally no interest, because it's just 'made up'. Wont be long before it's all racist - it's probably not "diverse" enough already 😂😂
it certainly is towards females >>>the little lady is not accepted where as War hammer is far more accepting, I love Historical war games and the history ... being a little lady we dont know our history or weapons>>>> try saying that to females soldiers, pilots or sailors
An intgeresting take on the topic. I hadn't considered how different groups within our hobby may be treated differently. Maybe a topic (or can of worms?) to talk about on another day.
That's something that the makers of model soldiers could do something about. For example, even those armies where women played/play a major role in combat are not represented well, although that is starting to change.
I mean, Russia had a ton of famous and amazingly skilled troops of woman, I remember the story of one who sold her farm to buy a tank to avenge her husband and by all accounts became a tank ace. They also had the "Night Witches" as well flying the old canvas winged planes as stealth night bombers fighters. As well as some of the most successful female snipers on any side of the conflict.
I'm going to be slightly pedantic here, the problem under discussion is not about elitism, it's about openness. Is the hobby open and welcoming to rookies? An elite, as I see it, is a group people who are the best, in wargaming, they might build and put on the most spectacular games at a show and often inspire others to stretch their own abilities, in RL warfare, an elite unit does something similar. Not every soldier of the Grande Armee can be in the Imperial Guard, but any soldier can aspire join the elite unit. So elitism is a positive force. On the other hand a closed hobby, where the newcomer is 'on their own' and, if not actively discouraged, at least not welcomed and aided by more experienced gamers, is most definitely not! On that score historical wargaming is extremely open. Indeed, some gamers are almost evangelical in their zeal, especially if the era/scale/ruleset being discussed with the rookie is a personal favourite. There is, I've found, often a gentle ribbing between different branches of the hobby, I myself have been known to joke about skirmish games as 'alright for captains and NCOs' and suggested that one day the player may 'rise in rank' and actually command an army corps or even an army! But that is all said in fun as I head to a big battle in 6mm. In reality, historical wargaming is far more open than GW in that instore play is GW products exclusively in many cases.
As an enthusiast of both Warhammer and historicals, I would like to apologise on behalf of the numpty in the shop. I would also like to say that every genre of wargame has its elitist crowds and not every group that say they are open and welcoming are in fact open and welcoming.
😆On behalf of histircal players, thank you. IN all seriousness though, its not a characterisation that I think can be applied to any genre in particular. I should have added in the video that I have had lots of conversations with non-histroical players in similar stores over the years, and this guys reaction was an exception.
Spot on.
@@MiniatureAdventuresTV there are certain groups of gamers, some of them quite famous CZcamsrs, who do not like their "accepted" historical views being challenged. Take the age old "Lions led by Donkeys" debate on WW1 leadership for example. Heaven help you if you dare to accuse any WW1 officer of being anything other than a true professional of flawless character. You will get a flea in your ear, even though it seems obvious to most that the abilities of officers differed drastically from one individual to another.
For every Napoleonic button counter pontificating on the suitability of that particular lace at Wagram, there must be 100 gatekeepers of a certain game getting their knickers in a twist over lady space marines.
Unpleasant pedants are everywhere.
😂
You're comparing apples to oranges. Female Space Marines are like having Wellington at Guadalcanal. It doesn't fit in the fluff. It's not pedantic to hold to background anchorpoints to maintain its verisimilitude. Having those solid foundations (especially in fiction) make any contradictions easier to justify. No one is saying that anyone can't MODEL FSM for themselves, the issue comes from those who want GW to change decades old foundational writing in order to cater to the identity politics of the 'modern audience'; then when you push back against their narcissistic viewpoints, you are called the usual "fascist, racist, sexist, etc" all which are of course demonstrably false.
This is not the same as button/rivet counting or lace snobbery. Those are modeling issues, not fluff/background/history issues, of which, if it were just a question of modeling very few have ever had an issue with people building FSM for their own enjoyment. If someone wanted to put M1 helmets on 1810 KGL because it would be fun, let them, if however they became insistent that KGL were on the beach at Normandy and fighting in line formation, and that anyone that disagreed with them was an -ist/phone, and that the history books are all wrong and needed to be changed to cater to their particular viewpoint, don't you think that would be met with the same sort of pushback as those who want official FSM? This is what the issue is, not whatever glib and dismissive statement you made about gatekeepers would portray.
@@JPGotrokkits Q.E.D. mate, Q.E.D. ;)
@@JPGotrokkitsoh GIVE OVER 😂
You're talking about 40k, which has retconned more lore than EVERY Sci fi and fantasy universe COMBINED! 😂
You're just scared that your precious childish macho stroppy fantasy eunuchs will start getting shown up by a bunch of girls. 😂
@@JPGotrokkitsits been canon since the 80s mate, Little Sisters of Battle Chapter of Space Marines. Calm down, no one knows or cares what body parts are under the sick power armour. I could say I had a Chapter where every marine was renamed Shirley, and Im sure some people who get screaming level upset at me and most people would either chuckle or groan then carry on playing with the toy soldiers in our fun silly space game
I imagine the shop clerks idea of an "elitist" is someone who is not interested in the games they have to offer. What is actually down to personal preferences, can be construed by some as being a snob or looking down on others. Ironically, the clerk was being elitist himself by writing off players of another genera different than his own.
I think that was my impression.
I play Bolt Action and love the WW2 history, I also play occasionally 40K and love the background fluff. For me however it comes down to price and 40K is smegging expensive to get in to and Bolt Action is pretty reasonable to buy a starter army for the same price as a single vehicle model from 40K
It's certainly a bit of the coffee calling the kettle black there on that one (if it is the chain of shops I'm thinking of). I may get hate for this but I don't think he's 100% wrong however.
In the last 2 year I've been moving away from sci-fi gaming due to the elitist nature of that crowd I've encountered, where you have to play with that companies official models or you can't play in tournaments, you have to play the most recent edition or you can't play, you have to play with the most recent rules updates or you can't play. Basically unless you're buying the most recent product you just can't play. And I'm at a point in my life (early 30's) where I want things to slow down.
But equally getting into historical wargaming as someone who is younger I've definitely felt a bit of isolation and elitism finding groups as I don't fit into the majority of players in my area (mainly due being several decades younger and having quite different life experiences from most historical wargamers I've met). I know that the outward attitude of both groups is 'everyone is welcome to come and join' and that is great but it's still difficult to break into that when what's actually being said is 'everyone is welcome to join so long as you join on our terms'.
Yes, you've highlighted some of the different kinds of elitism that occur in various places and I don't think one part of the hobby suffers from this problem more than any other. Cost of gear, quality of painting, scale of models and chosen rule sets are all used by some people to exclude others and it can be hard to fight against.
This rang very true, on both counts. I can fit into the latter, the former just aint for me anymore.
I've found the single genre players more elitist than the multi-genre players. I'm sure it is the former type that the shop assistant was thinking of. And, yes, it is a case of the pot calling the kettle black where his company is concerned. Having said that, my trips to buy their paints usually are pleasant exchanges when I tell them what I am painting, Short, but pleasant.
Its not the first time I've had this sort of conversation. However, it is the exception rather than the rule.
Hi Lee; huge topic this. Being on the far side of the world, it has been my experience from shows in particular, that the 'Dark Side' gamers are the ones who refuse to engage with anyone not into their genre to the point of rudeness, while the historical gamers are the ones who will go out of their way to engage with all & sundry to try & infect them with their love of the game. It all boils down to whether one is into multiple facets of wargaming or single minded with tunnel vision.
I agree, Historical gamers are more often open to new periods and scales (and rules).
Nice discussion point, Lee, and of course I’m grinning because clearly, that person in the store had no idea that ALL the founders of Games Workshop were-and still are-historical wargamers too! You should point them at my interviews with Rick P, the Perry twins, Alessio Cavatore… And as has been said by others, there are ‘gatekeepers’ on both sides of the (really non-existent) divide.
Before I learned of Warhammer (fantasy or 40K) I learned about wargaming from a second-cousin/uncle of mine. He has a Napoleonic Army and Zulus. I once asked him about Warhammer that was advertised in one of his books he let me read and he said: "It's also a wargame but you can't take it seriously!"
Hehe, I put that down to him being older is all!
I now play Warhammer Fantasy. I must say, I have had a few games with my uncle and enjoyed it thoroughly - it's fantastic how long the games take. He stays in another province so I've not played often unfortunately.
I've played Fantasy, sci-fi and historical wargames and they are all fun and absorbing genres. I mostly plays historical games now because that is what I m interested in, but I wouldn't dream of mocking players of other genres. Its certainly not a generalisation I would apply to any one group of players, just a handful of individuals.
@@MiniatureAdventuresTVyou find the "funny attitudes" everywhere. My main hobby is model railways and even here, certain people buy ONLY certain brands and also mock those who would "dare" mix prototypes etc. I admit, I enjoy being realistic and operations, but, like you, would never mock what brings someone else joy.
I play historicals and fantasy, and historical gamers tend to be way more laid back. It helps being in my 40s and most of them are in their 70s and 80s who are super excited to see "young people" getting involved. I love picking their brains about arcane historical facts. Hopefully, I will be that guy some day. lol
I like being described as 'laid back' 🤣.
Not sure many of us would like to be slotted into the “80s and 80s” category just yet! 😂🤔
The hobby as a whole I don't see as elitist, but there is a sizeable section, in my experience, that look down on fantasy or sci-fi and specifically anything to do with a certain high street games store. I am happy gaming across many genres and time periods. Not everybody is, but there is no reason to cock a snook at another person's gaming choice to their face. I encountered that attitude when first visiting the local club. The members were happy playing their own games and were not very welcoming. Eventually, the more eclectic gamers started another night that became more popular and led to an expansion of the club.
Yes, I recognise that. I know a few historical players who wouldn't touch fantasy or sci-fi with a barge pole. Personally I think they are missing a trick, but each to their own.
@@MiniatureAdventuresTV- Wouldn’t touch Warhammer with a bargepole, because (a) it’s vastly overpriced; (b) it’s an overcomplicated, unsatisfying game. Am I elitist?
LoL.
Very entertaining and well reasoned video. I've had the same experience on the few occasions I've been in the same stores. Once they know they can't sting you for their latest incarnation of the same thing they've been churning out they have no interest in engaging with you. Shame really and I find it's the hard core gamers from that part of the hobby that are the real elitists.
I feel historical gaming is the most affordable form of tabletop gaming. From rules to figures. The fact that you cannot play in the “high street” store with anything but their product line says it all.
I would love to have an 'historical' games shop in the high street... I'd never be bored while shopping again. The wife could drop me off (like leaving a kid at a Crèche) do her shopping and pick me up when she's finished. Maybe my mind is more 'fantasy' oriented than I thought 🤣
@@MiniatureAdventuresTV- Ah, but would you play if you could only use infantrymen that the store’s firm supplied at £5 each (compared to £1 each for non-proprietary infantrymen)?
I play both fantasy sci fi and historical and I just wanted to say:
What a lovely video.
I am grateful to GW as in my late 30's I got into wargaming when my son was playing 40K. Always had an interest but not done anything about it. Then, I moved on to play historicals and never looked back.
My experience is that historical players are keen to share their knowledge and encourage people to have a go. I think some GW staff fear losing customers to other systems due the price difference.
When I first read your title I thought, what on earth is this all about?! Now I've listened to your video, I can completely see why you felt the need to upload a video like this. It's funny, when I grew up in Leicester and played at the GW store, I always felt intimidated and that the workers/players were very elitist, almost like a boys club ... outsiders just ruined the fun. Granted I was 14 and only wanted to play LOTR on very little money. Fast forward 16 years and only playing historical wargaming, I very rarely feel that. Does that mean we don't have some elitist in our community? Absolutely not, you get them no matter what end of the wargaming scale you play. I think some people just have a real chip on their shoulder but for every one of those, there is normally a great handful that don't and simply play for the fun of it. I generally find that most historical wargamers are playing because they love history and don't care if they win but just want to share stories of whatever period they play. Great video mate and it really got me thinking.
It was a bit of a clickbaity title, but completely unintentional I promise 😆. I'm glad it gave you some food for thought (and loads of interesting discussion in the comments), that is what my Talking Point videos are designed to do.
haha definitely not mate, I really enjoyed the video and the title is perfect! You've made a great video here and I'm loving the comments.@@MiniatureAdventuresTV
There those types (elitists) in every group of enthusiasts. Very unfortunate you were treated that way at an "Upper East Midlands Corporation" store. Obviously, he hasn't looked at some of their competitive players. I should know, I worked for the bloody company for 8 long years! I'd say that was a lot calling the kettle black situation since they call their entire game collection a "hobby" unto itself and separate from the rest of the miniature wargaming hobby in general! If that's not elitist, I don't know what is!
It's not the first time I have had a similar reaction from non-historical players.
Good topic! Historical wargamers need tough hides these days (always). Recently, the accusation of being closet Nazis, now we're elitists. Let's go back to the 70s when the media portrayed us as strange elderly men who hadn't quite grown up.
I take the view that whether you play with Orcs, Space Marines or Landsknecht's we are all Wargamers. May people play more that one genre and many play just one. No one is doing it wrong, they are all just enjoying themselves. Sadly a few people are less open minded, but that isn't limited to just one group.
As someone with a foot in both camps (Warhammer and Historical Gaming) I understand where the assumption has come from however it is incorrect. I have found that the Gatekeepers shout a lot but are definitely a small minority of both sides. I think both sides have been very open, welcoming, helpful and encouraging of the hobby and I like to take my love of History into my 40k world and my love of the uniqueness that you can create from 40k into my historical armies.
I did a video a couple of weeks agio where I said everyone's hobby is different and that's all ok. If you enjoy what you are playing then no one should ever tell you you're doing it wrong.
I completely agree with you. At the end of the day, it's a hobby, and we're all supposed to have fun doing it. Different people enjoy different things so let's just all get along and enjoy our hobby in our preferred way
Back in the day, I think I was in my late 20's, I was a young guy with a serious history addiction and I was in this Yahoo group on the LaceWars - Age of Enlightenment, 17th to 18th Century Wars.
At the start people were friendly and I was just commenting here and there on topics and for some reason - I don't know if it was because I was asking for help finding Order of Battle information or something, some of these older researchers/wargamers suddenly became very hostile to me. They were like "we spent YEARS researching this stuff and you want us to just hand it over" - like what you said. Still remember one of them, the go to guy on the Great Northern Wars, Dan Schorr. Schorr was a real jerk to me. I soon left that forum, but it became just one more reason I came to distance myself from and hate being close to other people. I called them out of course, said that if they were a33holes to younger gamers and researchers then their stupid hobby would die a well deserved death and good riddance to them.
Dan Schorr apparently died in 2021. I'm not sorry that he died. He was a real d1ck toward me and he didn't care at all.
Since then I've become a historical researcher and commentator in my own right and in my own niche. I still love the LaceWars passionately. And I hope that I do more to ENCOURAGE younger people through positive interactions than drive them away by being a selfish jerk that's more concerned with hoarding knowledge than sharing it.
I think there maybe an element of perception, UK side of things many gamers start with a GW Warhammer AoS or 40k. After a while they discover other wargames and a lot of them are more engaging but still simple rules systems. Bolt Action, Saga, Rampant series, Warlords Black Powder and various Ospreys in high st stores. Suddenly a historical gamer enjoying the games more stops playing Warhammer for a historical game. I suspect with a bit more of a conversation that the guy in the store had an experience of a long term friend Warhammer player, now playing only the other games because he's enjoying them more and it was a personal response arising from that he no longer gets to play with his friend. Due to the constant edition creep there;s been a few youtubers droping Warhammer for alternatives for the past year or two and whilst GW is in no danger I think will be a trend to continue.
If you ain't a potential mark, GW ain't interested and the sooner you leave their store, the better. At least that's seems to be their sales training. As far as historical gamers being elitist, meh, who really cares? Play what you like how you like. Insufferable people will usually find themselves alone soon enough.
As I said in my video, I'm not making a judgement about the shop or the people in it (everyone was having a good time and thats what counts). I was just surprised (and disappointed) to encounter the stereotype in 2024.
Clearly the attitude of apparent elitism comes from a feeling of inadequacy? I can't imagine someone with their head screwed on straight can look at the GW product and think 'yes, this is it, this is the best'!
I don't think Historical Wargamers are Elitist. Just some groups are more open then others.
Exactly. It has nothing to do with the Genre and can be found in any branch of wargaming.
😂 nope that’s about what I got when I went in there (I suspect I know where you went) first and foremost “there is no arguing with stupid”. So well done. Personally I fly in and out of a lot of wargaming periods etc. I’ve had fun with all. Fortunately, currently I am placed in a position where I can do it all, if I can with out “stupid” and can still wax lyrical with cool people like yourself that actual help. Great content big L and well done
I certainly have no issue with games of other genres....which was why I was having a look around the shop.
I'd say any aspect for the hobby, or any hobby come to that, can be elitist. I know an RPG-er who looks down on "toy soldier" games and a table-topper who constantly disparages anything involving "wizards."
Aside from that 99% of gamers I know enjoy both, and other types of game too! The same even goes way back when RPGs and fantasy games first started coming in in the late 70s. Most were happy to try both, the small minority looked down their noses.
At then end of it, we are all playing games and, as you say, by and large people are welcoming
I think all hobbies and interests have an element of the "my way or the highway" type.
True. Rare, but present in any absorbing hobby.
@@MiniatureAdventuresTV I don't think it's really any more common in wargaming compared to other hobbies. I used to be big record collector- just the same.
Most wargamers I’ve encountered in sci-fi/fantasy or historicals have been nice, decent folks. There are some who will point out anachronisms or paint jobs not fully in line with history (or the lore for sci-fi/fantasy) but most do that assuming everyone shares their passion to be fully consistent, and if you note that that isn’t your end goal and you and happy with your current work, most of those folks will drop it. There are some overly zealous types (the so-called “rivet counters”) who think they have to either convert you or drive you from the hobby but luckily that is a very small minority and are usually easily ignored. In my experience there are more of that type in the WW2 gaming community but still a minority overall.
'niche' maybe? I really enjoy your brief commentaries
Exactly, I prefer to think of anyones passion for their version of the hobby to be niche. That doesn't necessarily make them elitist.
Thank you :)
In general I haven’t found historical wargamers to be elitist, most are engaging and very willing to share information. Their interests, and my own, do however tend to narrow the potential conversation quickly. There is still common ground to be explored and discussed, but it needs to be approached in a more considered way. For example if you play a set of rules that is different, or a scale that is less common, conversations often becomes harder more quickly. This can be perceived as elitist I suppose.
Some of the things with it is also a context situation.
Locally, there was a group of players that were playing the Hasbro/WotC Axis and Allies minis game and then went into Bolt Action and Flames of War when the original games ended, I remember that they were not happy at all with some of the weird war stuff that the store ended up stocking them.
It came off as elitist...however, a big chunk of it was more of that large group having started out as a generational thing that continues where a lot of the original core were some WW2 vets and their kids/grandkids, and they kind of felt more of the speculative stuff as semi-disrespectful. They'd complain about it and not touch it, some of the kids did start playing the WWW stuff as well before I ended up shifting to a newer games store that opened a lot closer to me.
Historicals also spread out a lot more than the fantasy/scifi side of things with different things having different takes on it, and a lot of the Napoleonic and similar tend to pull in a LOT more button counters and shade watchers than things like westerns, vikings, and samurai. At the same time, a lot of those bigger battle gamers tend to also be the ones to go through massive piles of research into it that is a nightmare in and of itself.
I do historical and fantasy periods and I don't think historical is any more prone to elitism than fantasy or sci-fi. I believe the non - historical periods have a similar share of 'rivet counters' and snobs to historical wargamers, though not a big proportion in either case. I believe some WH, WH40K and AoS players might well turn their nose up at playing KoW, Reaper, MESB, Traveller etc. without necessarily having a specific reason for it. I understand that GW have a policy of banning non-official figures from competition games which doesn't sound particularly inclusive to me.
Thats GW for you; if that's not elitist then what is
Last trip to a Warhammer shop (Croydon) the chap asked me what I was painting and I said ancient Celts. He seemed quite interested in that and was also aware of other non-GW games (think I mentioned Frostgrave). He was very helpful, introducing me to liqud greenstuff, which I bought. No sign of elitism/exclusivity there!
" ... didn't like historical players ..." - be interesting to see the sales figures for that particular store clerk.
100 New Zealand wargamers painted some 5,000 miniature soldiers for a huge diorama of the Battle of Chunuk Bair. Asd part of the painting team, I shopped at workshop. They were more than happy to sell me paints and brushes.
I think it was just one individual, probably overworked and stressed, with a blinkered view of the 'other side' of the hobby. I certainly don't think its their business model to be rude to customers. I wasn't in there to buy stuff, maybe he picked up on that and felt like I wasting his time?? Who knows.
I’ve met a very small minority of people on both sides of the camp, who are dismissive about genres outside their narrow interests. I enjoy virtually all forms of gaming. There is no way to be doing your hobby wrong!
Absolutely. 'Your hobby' is your hobby and if it makes you happy then you aren't doing it wrong, you're just doing it differently.
I play historicals and scifi (not from the store you had this experience from though) and I’ve never found historical players as a rule, very welcoming. I’m a little more intimidated by the store you mention, although to be fair I’ve had plenty of positive experiences there as I feel totally ignorant of the lore and background they all seem seeped in. These opinionated people exist unfortunately in all parts of the hobby but are very much in a minority.
I agree. People can be very knowledgeable, but it comes down to how you express that knowledge. It is nothing unique about historical wargamers - the only thing I think what has contributed to the idea that historical gamers are "elitist", is that they have a larger amount of grognards (not a bad thing), and they know their games are not popular, and it shows.
"Existential battle for the honor of our hobby"! Love it! This was an excellent topic.
In addressing the viewpoint (and, poor customer service) of the shop clerk, I'm in agreement with Lee. Historical wargaming isn't *necessarily* elitist. I think there exist perceptions and some real barriers that may shape our hobby into something that looks esoteric, inaccessible, and, thus, "elitist".
Historical wargamers enjoy history (obviously) and like *learning* about history. Unfortunately the studying and learning about anything remotely academic is sometimes seen as elitist. There may be a feeling among some non-historical wargamers that historical wargaming can only be the purview of credentialed scholars - which we all know just isn't the case. The only "necessary requirements" for being a historical war gamer are a love of reading, a love of history, a love of miniatures (and often painting), and - arguably - a willingness to debate scale sizes. 🙂
I think historical wargaming's lack of as strong of a presence in the public square also contributes to the "elitist" perception. While it seems to me that the UK is the land of milk and honey regarding historical wargaming and historical clubs (one day I will visit this Promised Land), I have never gotten that impression living in the US. It wasn't until the advent of Flames of War until I noticed "mainstream" hobby centers carrying anything approaching historical gaming. But Warhammer and 40K *always* had a strong presence in these places. People can often be seen playing the games at these hobby centers, which shows that there is a community to join. In my (limited) experience, historical wargaming clubs aren't the easiest thing track down (though the internet helps). A lack of presence and difficulty to find can make historical wargaming appear mysterious and inaccessible.
Finally, a lack of ready access to history and military history books (along with the perception that one must read a ton of books) may contribute to some being able to access and/or further their interest in historical wargaming. Non-historical wargaming has a (seemingly) finite amount of books that need to be purchased in order to play and understand the game. And they are readily available. Again, the lack of a public presence hurts awareness of and access to historical wargaming and can contribute to the perception of elitism. At best, "name" bookstores (and there are precious few of those) would have fairly tiny military history sections with books that often covered a period or war in a sweeping, "big picture" way (which makes sense if you're to have a small section). Good/large public libraries may have much more variety (but then does one live in an area with good libraries?). If one is lucky enough to work for a university, which often means access to the university library and the libraries of other universities, then the sky is the limit! But we can see that the percentage of a given population who can take advantage of these gets smaller and smaller. If a smaller population has access, it definitely contributes to that population as being elitist.
In all the above these are social and environmental situations that contribute to the charge of "elitism". I have never encountered historical wargamers who wished to *intentionally* exclude me - and the true elitist is intentionally exclusionary. I've found that historical wargamers are more than happy to bring someone "into the fold" - particularly if you share an interest in their favorite period. One time I had someone essentially give me enough 25mm French Napoleonics to field an army! The majority of us are not elitist.
And, Lee, if you were to produce a tee shirt which stated something along the lines of "Big Lee...Warrior in the existential battle for the honor of historical wargaming", I would definitely buy it. 😛
It is a diffict one, and I now wonder if I am an elitist historical wargamer as I am only interested in horse & musket periods.
It is also easy to sound elitist with history, I remember being asked by shop assistant in a highstreet games shop what I gamed, my answer was The War of the Austrian Succession.
I can understand now how that could sound pompous, but it was, is a simple truth.
Unfortunately you could mention almost any historical period, & many of the 'Dark Side' gamers wouldn't know what you were talking about - not pompous, just shows you have a depth of historical knowledge that they don't.
But there's nothing wrong with specialising. Realistically, taking part in all historical wargame eras would break most budgets and take a huge amount of time,
Couldn't agree more, I keep it to 4 periods for that very reason@@duncanrichardson5306
The group Im in play fantasy to historical. Enthusiasm is pretty balanced across it all. We are 30ish to 60+ in age and age doesn't determine interest. History as well as fictional game world lore and all round nerd chatting ensues.
My group are ostensibly Historical players but we probably play as many what-if fictional battles as recreations of specific battles.
Sadly, even within my own club, I find a certain elitist behaviour especially amongst older player's versus that certain mainstreet company. They often go like "that's rubbish, you should play *insert whatever non that company fantasy rule set here* instead" even though I never actually saw them physically play a game of that ruleset ever. The, and this might sound a bit cruel, thing though in the past decade is that these sort of players are (unfortunatly sometimes literally, because I don't wish anything bad on anybody) starting to die out.
It may be a generational thing. Newer gamers (in all genres) have 'grown' into a hobby that is more diverse and has more choices than say 30-40 years ago. That being said, I've never belonged to a formal club as such (the Rejects are a group of mates rather than a club) so maybe my view is biased because of that.
I mean, everyone is playing with plastic army people, sci fi, army, whatever. Grown men playing with toys in essence. Any kind of eliteism is kinda silly. I have only engaged with friends and family so far, but other people I know who have played similar fgames and found them all down to earth. My big tip into historicals was in that other games systems cost of entry.
The shop clerk really missed a great opportunity to talk to you about what games you enjoy and then discuss products he offered that might interest given your tastes. I've been blessed to not meet many elitists in any branch of wargaming, and the few i have met were spread out between any system and never seemed attached to be a symptom of any one system in particular. Granted ive known some people that are very passionate about their system and want to tell you how much better it is than anything else but theyre easy enough to ignore 😂
No it is not. The reason they don't like historical gamers is we do not spend enough money for him to meet his targets.
Kind of hard to when "that big high street retailer" doesn't carry anything useful for historicals, aside from the odd paint or basing sand, which can be had elsewhere for a better price.
If it's the shop I think it is it's riddled with competitive Meta gamers who sap all fun and joy out of the game.
I think the issue with historical wargaming isn't anything to do with the game, it's more to do with "grumpy old man" syndrome. Older gents who are stuck in their ways and have lost all sense of flexibility or manouverability to accept that the times have changed. A 50 year old and a 20 year old probably wont have a lot in common, but the 50 year old should have the grace and wisdom to check their attitude so that the 20 year old isn't put off the hobby or shunned from the store.
My local club is full of more mature members and they are an absolute delight. Flexible, considerate and open minded, with the social experience to engage with "the youth" and make them feel welcome. It's not the case everywhere, which is a shame.
Note that this situation doesnt take into consideration people just acting like prats. That's not the purpose of this comment.
I'm reaching 'grumpy old man' territory, but I like to think I'm open minded, welcoming and encouraging to new players. Its one of the reasons I enjoy running demo games at shows.
i do not play historicals myself. but i have never met a elitist from the group. I prefer fantasy and sci fi games. I am sure your side has asshats as well as ours. I suggest gate keeping and keep the hobbies fun and inviting to those who are not gonna make it a bad experience for everyone else.
100%. i've tried getting into historical gaming multiple times. I find the community as a whole to be just flat out douchey.
For the elitists - they need reminding that it's still only 'playing with toy soldiers'.
It's a hobby, if you are enjoying what you do then you're not doing it wrong.
I say that, that chap probably met someone who was rude and this carried over to a generalization. All hobbies bring all walks of life.
For sure there are elitest elements in the hobby.
By this I mean closed groups with no public facing means of contacting them who exclusively stage games by invitation only.
I can see how easy it is to slip into that way of gaming, especially when you have a long standing group of friends with their own private premises that they can use to host their games.
If that's the way you prefer to game it needs to be counter balanced by also actively promoting a public presence, be that at wargames shows or via social media. Otherwise how are potential new members going to find and join your group and prevent it from fading away.
Thankfully the overwhelming majority of people I've ever encountered in the hobby realise this.
In summary there's a nugget of truth in the store assistant's statement but it doesn't make it factually accurate.
Hey Big Lee! Hummmmm... Elitist?! I don't think so. Self-sorting... yes. I suppose though, that in a wider world view... having ANY kind of time to even HAVE a hobby, instead of all of our time absorbed in making a living, could be considered elitist! I consider time spent in self-awareness & self-enrichment is time well spent.
Totally agree with the comments that there are elitists everywhere. You'd have thought that the salesperson would have suggested a product that would particularly appeal to historical wargamers. With regard to Volley & Bayonet and the War of the First Coalition, my book includes a Castiglione scenario for V&B. I took the game to Salute last year using DBN but you can see the V&B version here czcams.com/video/QZgwBE_QATc/video.html. Always enjoy your videos Lee, thanks.
Historical gamers can be seen as elitist, because they are so few. It's a point of perspective and has in my opinion nothing to do with behaviour.
The salesman in my GW had previously worked as a translator for Napoleonic board games. The idea of the elite never came up. 😄
elitism and gatekeeping are often good
I enjoy what I do and mind my own business simple as that. Life is too short.
One of the main reasons I've started my own channel about historical wargaming is to get more people to play.
In my humble opinion historical wargaming is not elitist, people who behave like dickheads and gatekeepers are. ;-)
Agreed. Its not unique to Historical wargamers, and thankfully we aren't talking about many people behaving like this.
Nope. Just people that love the game. Just not everyone have the same spending power. I love all the genre. I just trying to tell myself, discipline, discipline when I see another mini collection that I drool over
Good luck with that. Self control is a skill I often lack, hence my growing Lead Mountain!
@@MiniatureAdventuresTV I'm afraid, ditto 😋
Go to a historical war gaming event and you can count the number of women on one hand. the children that are there are kids of people who already play historical games. Historical wargaming is an old white guys club. most historical war games are not even marketed to people who don't already play a war game of some kind. plenty of individual players can be welcoming and inviting but historical war gaming as a whole is like a walled garden.
What’s more “elitist”? Buying cheap figures from a slew of periods and manufacturers before studying the history and army lists for free in the library or on line? Or buying grossly overpriced “factions”, codexes and lore from a single, monopolistic company?
Personally I reckon you should do whatever makes you happy and let others do the same.
Historical wargaming requires a certain person, that's why it might feel elitist. Games based on big fictional I.P.'s like Warhammer or Dungeons and Dragons can do whatever to broaden their appeal to the public, they are the owners. With historicals you can mostly attract people who are already interested in history. You cannot tradmark the napoleonic wars. Writing history books into your roolebooks would make little sense. So you nees a person who is already educated in history or knows where to find more information when entering into a new period. In that way - yea it may be elitist as it's not a hobby designet for the masses but for people with particular interests. Is that a bad thing? Don't think so. Not everything has to be for everyone. There is nothing wrong in having a niche. I mean- I don't go to people who play Warhammer 40K, ask them would they be interesed in playing a 7 years War game and if they refuse calling them immature, uneducated and unsufisticated because they would rather play with space men on steroid instead of playing with guys with powderd wigs and muskets. So I think that is the problem that guy had- that he could not sell anything. That's why they do have broad appeal- to sell stuff.
I think I do have some sympathy with the elitist comment. Over the years I have seen/heard quite a few historical gamers express the view that fantasy/sci-fi gamers (usually aimed at GW games) would "grow up" and move to historicals meaning they definitely saw/see non-historical games as a lesser version of wargaming ("childish" is often used by these people). On the positive side these people are a minority and a declining one in my experience.
To be honest, those guys should be careful what they wish for. Without a healthy amount of gatekeeping those guys would be begging for the mass market to leave and stop ruining their hobby. I've seen it happen many times before in other hobbies.
I suppose you might call me an elitist gamer: a rare thing going by the comments here. And no, I don’t mean because of my knighthood.
Back at my university club we saw some of the first coherent SciFi/ Fantasy games emerge, several decades ago, just as GW was creating a market for itself. Most of us refused to get involved in that “nonsense”, despite being avid SciFi fans. What would be the point? Why simulate something that is pure fiction? Not only were the rules rubbish at the time, the figures were too. (I painted a handful for fun, but they never once saw the table.) As a club we tolerated SciFi games, just as we tolerated military board gamers. Indeed we welcomed them openly. After all, one day some of these poor misguided souls might one day be tempted over to the “normal” side of gaming, for that’s what it was at the time. (I later learned that one of our club members, a published military historian, later went over to the dark side and became a GW staffer. Poor chap.)
Decades later, and I’ve still never played a SciFi/Fantasy game, though I’ve watched a few and not generally been impressed. In that time my knowledge of history and human culture has grown ever deeper thanks to the toehold given by historical gaming. So glad I never wasted my time pondering Nurgle carbuncles and the temptations of the Slaneesh.
P.S. Am currently considering taking up a game called Gaslands - basically, Mad Max on the table top. It’ll be my first faltering step into the world of SciFi/Fantasy gaming (well, second after “What A Tanker!”).
Like with all other generalisations, it is an incorrect assumption.
Bolt Action is very popular now! Im not sure what time-frame counts as 'historical' - WW2 ended almost 80 years ago and is 'historic'. People seem to want to recruit more players/collectors! Warhammer can be VERY elitist !!.....some people will rip you to bits for getting warhammer lore wrong or asking for advice etc. Bolt action is far more affordabe too. There are elitist in all hobbies. Historical wargaming is not one I recognise
In the near 20 years of being an historical wargamer I have yet to encounter any gatekeeper or elitist in that gaming sphere. The only problems I have encountered were from people who came over from games workshop games and brought with them their poor sport attitudes and other baggage. Now I have played in both bubbles and I have found the games workshop one to be the most toxic I have ever seen. I've been accosted numerous times when picking up a box of 40k or age of sigmar because I was interested in painting the contents only to be told by those around me that unit sucked and I should put it down and get this instead or that instead. Then when I said I just paint what I like and could care less about rules or this and that and they always would get real snippy and angry as if I committed some grand sin. Its because of that problem I stopped buying warhammer in person and ultimately stopped in general. Wasn't worth the annoyance of constantly dealing with children. I will say that I hope historical gamers do gate keep the games workshop kids. I don't want their toxicity to infect historical gaming. They can have their space marines and overpriced lore. I will stick with History and be the better for it.
There's some elitists in all sections, historical and gw players. Most players are ok though 😁
Agreed. You get them in every hobby, but usually not in great numbers.
What does "elitist" mean in this context?
Good point. I took it to mean, acting superior because of the specialist knowledge required, and looking down or talking down those entering the hobby. As I said, its not a characterisation I recognise, but maybe I misinterpreted what the guy was driving at.
So explain the difference between historical,fantasy and sci-fi. Isn’t it just the look of the minis?
I play 40K,ECW & WW2 and Frostgrave. All are just games with rules and soldiers. It’s just semantics at the end of the day.
Though I do prefer historical games as I find historical players are less elitist. 😂
Lee, I do agree with your points on wargaming as an elitist endeavour. Still, I can understand that players who might be looking for an entry point into historical wargames might feel unwelcomed or pushed away, that historical wargaming appears to be a book with seven locks for which you need to have studied the most unknown aspects of any and all periods out there for thirty years. I believe, the problems are these:
1) There are so many periods, scales, rulesets and commiting to the hobby needs you to make the hard decision to put a considerable amount of money down, paint all the minis up and find someone to actually play with, if you manage to keep your spirits high and finish potentially at least two armies. Unless you have a club around which actually does invite new players and provides them a smooth approach, letting them watch and make their own decision, once they feel comfortable enough.
2) This can easily be perceived as an entry barrier and be reinforced by folks who post their personal most favourite game and scale, even if it is not quite entry friendly at all. Sometimes you end up with 90% of these kinds of answers even though someone asked for an explicitly entry-level point to start wargaming. Or they react annoyed and preachingly, if someone who appears less well read as they fancy themselves tries to engage in the debate. Now, those are the grumpy old gatekeepers you mentioned. And to some degree it's relatable, because they have gone through point 1) themselves and are now not willing to consider something else as eligible.
3) This is a shame. But as you also mentioned, many wargamers are very welcoming, encouraging and supportive. I especially had that experience with the international community of practitioners, who are super keen to share insights and hint you to information. I am always wondering why that is, because academic sort of communities tend to be exclusive in many cases. Maybe I just have a screwed pespective from subjective experiences, but it is truely delighting. Now, the problem is, that, with social media and the internet being what it is, those with the strongest opinions tend to bloke the loudest. I want to encourage the welcoming majority to show up and kindly remind the outliers that we share a hobby and enthusiasm and we can all only profit from new minds and perspectives in the hobby, that nobody is going to take away their old rules they love with all their heart, because the hobby is about doing what we love.
4) Speaking of barriers and approachability, a considerable amount of rules aren't very entry-friendly. Because, again, they use to be written by folks with lots of experience who simply can't see that someone who is new to the period or game will have a hart time figuring out what they are used to doing for years. Again, partly not their fault. Though, partly it is. I want to vouch for doing more playtesting, especially blind playtesting with groups from different backgrounds. Again, people are eager to help, if you ask them. Furthermore, get yourself a developer who is not you, not even a close friend, who doesn't shy away from tearing your game apart, even if you put all your love into it and think the way it is is the only way it should be. Indeed, you must be strong, able to reflect. But nobody said game design was an easy task. Yet, you should definitely give it a go, even if it is just adding houserules to some existing games. Don't shy away from "stealing" ideas from others, that's how progress works. Taking promissing bits, adding some ingredients and improve to the next level.
I realize that I have written a strange wall of text that might sound presumptious. It is certainly not intended to do so. I am sharing my experiences and impressions and recognize those of others as equally valid. It is this exchange that will help us become better, as persons even. Thus, thank you for initiating these debates, Lee.
I want to end with the observation that there is change, it is slow, as always, but it is there. And that is a beautiful thing.
We are all elitist to someone who isn't in our clique.
No
Interesting set of comments. Personally, ive never played Warhammer, or any other "fantasy" figure wargames, literally no interest, because it's just 'made up'.
Wont be long before it's all racist - it's probably not "diverse" enough already 😂😂
it certainly is towards females >>>the little lady is not accepted where as War hammer is far more accepting, I love Historical war games and the history ... being a little lady we dont know our history or weapons>>>> try saying that to females soldiers, pilots or sailors
An intgeresting take on the topic. I hadn't considered how different groups within our hobby may be treated differently. Maybe a topic (or can of worms?) to talk about on another day.
That's something that the makers of model soldiers could do something about. For example, even those armies where women played/play a major role in combat are not represented well, although that is starting to change.
I mean, Russia had a ton of famous and amazingly skilled troops of woman, I remember the story of one who sold her farm to buy a tank to avenge her husband and by all accounts became a tank ace. They also had the "Night Witches" as well flying the old canvas winged planes as stealth night bombers fighters. As well as some of the most successful female snipers on any side of the conflict.
I'm going to be slightly pedantic here, the problem under discussion is not about elitism, it's about openness. Is the hobby open and welcoming to rookies?
An elite, as I see it, is a group people who are the best, in wargaming, they might build and put on the most spectacular games at a show and often inspire others to stretch their own abilities, in RL warfare, an elite unit does something similar. Not every soldier of the Grande Armee can be in the Imperial Guard, but any soldier can aspire join the elite unit.
So elitism is a positive force.
On the other hand a closed hobby, where the newcomer is 'on their own' and, if not actively discouraged, at least not welcomed and aided by more experienced gamers, is most definitely not!
On that score historical wargaming is extremely open. Indeed, some gamers are almost evangelical in their zeal, especially if the era/scale/ruleset being discussed with the rookie is a personal favourite.
There is, I've found, often a gentle ribbing between different branches of the hobby, I myself have been known to joke about skirmish games as 'alright for captains and NCOs' and suggested that one day the player may 'rise in rank' and actually command an army corps or even an army! But that is all said in fun as I head to a big battle in 6mm. In reality, historical wargaming is far more open than GW in that instore play is GW products exclusively in many cases.
Yawn. Sure.
No, they're not. Its that easy. No need to watch 10 minute video. 🥲