SMG With a Monopod? The Vollmer VMP-1930
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- čas přidán 16. 03. 2023
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In 1925, the German military began a series of secret SMG trials at the Kummersdorf testing grounds. One of the participants was Heinrich Vollmer. He was funded directly by the government for his small arms R&D until 1930, and iteratively developed his design until it went into large-scale production as the Erma EMP. What we are looking at today is the VMP 1930 pattern (a C&R transferrable example). At this stage, the gun had most of its final design elements, including a traditional box magazine, self-contained recoil spring system, and bare barrel. It also had a collapsing monopod in the vertical front grip, which would be later discarded.
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The treaty of Versaille banned Germany from developing SMGs, but as we know from the other 87 videos on German SMGs from the 20/30s nobody cared.
And turns out that wasn't a mistake.
@@monotech20.14 The treaty banning them from making arms wasn't a mistake for sure.
You can't say continuing to produce arms was the best thing to do to protect yourself when you started the next conflict.
@@bubba200874426 Military disarmament is one thing. However, outright forbidding production of pretty much all relevant military equipment of the time in quantities that would enable you to defend yourself, let alone arm yourself is how the German people got more and more fed up with the Entente to start the next conflict and throw their entire existence on a single person with sole deciding factor on living or dying is definitely the biggest mistake the Versailles treaty did.
@@mmouse1886 Hence after WW2 Japan for instance specifically being allowed a Self Defense Force.
IMO that in itself was a major factor in Japan becoming a staunch US ally. They had good reason to fear revenge attack from China.
@@markfergerson2145 yeah... no. China was not a threat to anybody post WW2, especially not Japan. It's only the last 10 years that China has emerged as a threat to Japan (and others in the Asia pacific region). The US was more concerned about the Soviets, which is why the US was so keen on turning Japan into an ally (read: forward operating base right on the Soviet door step).
As a matter of fact, Japan did indeed not have any armed forces anymore for a brief period after WW2, as per Japan's disarmament and new constitution, as well as the desire of the Americans to continue to punish Japan. Regardless of how the Japanese were treated by the yanks during occupation, politicians and much of the populace was supportive of this new pacifist idea - given how the US essentially reduced their entire country to rubble and millions of their people to ashes. It wasn't until the US became increasingly anxious about the USSR and paranoid about the spread of communism in the east with the communist takeover of China and the Korean war that the US decided it would be a good idea to pressure Japan to rearm and to help rebuild the country instead of zealously punishing them. Despite the resistance against the idea of rearming, Japan capitulated and raised up the coast guard and National Police Reserve (effectively a lightly armed military police) which slowly morphed into the JSDF we know today.
Look at this distinguished smg, look at the way he is sitting with his monopod
"Look at that subtle off-brown coloring. The tasteful thickness of it. Oh, my God. It even has a monopod."
"Once war were declared, so to speak."
Ian's deadpan nerdy humor is my favorite.
C and R arsenal reference?
@@AzureRoseMarshal Futurama reference.
Both, technically. C&Rsnel is quoting Futurama.
@@jonkissinger426 Fry, few seconds after signing contract with military; what is that siren? Zapp; war where declared.
@SinisaTrlin yes, but it was a bit in C&Rsnel primer episodes that when othais would get the the point in a gun's story where I was involved in the war, he would say "war were declared" and they'd have a transition bumper with period clips and sounds.
The company Vollmer still exists. I can see it from the window of my office here in Biberach. 😊
Is it the same Vollmer? I know of a model railway scenery company named Vollmer.
Yes, Vollmer Engineering founded by Heinrich Vollmer in Biberach an der Riß in 1909.
The same-named toys company from Stuttgart was closed in 2014.
It looks so…. Civilized
Well yes
Agreed, the woodwork is beautiful.
Obi Wan wouldn't agree
It has better fit and finish than most new production sporting rifles!
Good way to put it
The Versailles Treaty actually contains no “ban” on sub machine guns. The treaty does limit Germany regarding arms development in general. Only companies approved by the Allies were allowed to engage in arms manufacture. Of course, that encouraged privately held German companies to move their arms manufacturing operations out of the country or go out of business.
Not really true. Maschinenpistolen had been forbidden for Reichswehr, only allowed for Police. Schutzpolizei units ( baracked Police?) had only the allowness of five submachine guns per Hundertschaft ( Hundertschaft means about , hunderd men', a purely civilian word). May be other branches of german Police also had few submachineguns. Not only military weapons had been regulated in Versailles treaty, also weaponry of Police. This means, for policemen, not belonging to Schutzpolizei units, ( Ordnungspolizei and Kriminalpolizei/ detectives, only pistols in .32 Acp or even .25 Acp had been allowed, also police sabers had been regulated. With some troubles, german Gouvernement could get the allowness that uniformed policemen on foot could carry a long saber,If they had the allowness to carry a long saber in Imperial Army or Police. Also for pistol producers Versailles treaty caused, that they could only produce pistols with caliber smaller than 8mm ( about .32), and no Barrels longer than 102 mm/ 4". Producing pistols may be in .380 Acp was possible, but mostly only for foreign Market.
@@brittakriep2938 "Schutzpolizei is the German name for a uniformed police force."
From Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schutzpolizei_(Nazi_Germany)
@@superturkeylegs did you miss the parts of the Wikipedia article above and below that one quote? everything Britta said is correct.
@@brittakriep2938 If the Treaty prohibits sub machine guns, then there must be a specific clause or clauses in the treaty where that can be found. I was able to download a pdf copy of the treaty terms online. Part V of the treaty is titled “Military, Naval and Air Clauses. Articles 160-163 concerns the size and composition of the German Army. Article 165 refers to Table No III, which refers to maximum numbers of guns, machine guns, rifles, etc, permitted.
Article 168 permits only manufacturers of war material sanctioned by the Allies. Firms not permitted to manufacture are forced to close.
Article 171 specifically bans poison gas, and the manufacture or importation of armored cars and tanks.
Article 181 and 191 prohibits the naval use of submarines and even the commercial use of submarines.
Finally, Article 198 prohibits military and naval aviation arms.
I don’t see a specific article that prohibits the army from using a sub machine gun. It stands to reason that if sub machine guns were intended to be banned, they would have been mentioned in Article 171 along with poison gas, armored cars and tanks. Banning the military use of submarines and aircraft in subsequent clauses further suggests that if they really intended to ban sub machine guns, it would have been specifically mentioned.
Now Table III, which limits the amount of military equipment that the army could have, doesn’t specifically include sub machine guns, but I don’t think too much can be read into that. Table III also omits pistols, I believe. Are we to assume that pistols, of any kind, are prohibited? Moreover, it does permit quantities of heavy and light machine guns. Would sub machine guns fit in the light machine gun category? Perhaps, given the Villa Perosa and the A-H Army making a similar weapon in small numbers. One can also point out that Table III doesn’t specify that rifles and carbines must be bolt action. Nothing would prevent the German Army from adopting a semi automatic rifle/carbine, nor would it prohibit the adoption of a select fire rifle or carbine. Thus something like the MP 18 or Vollmer’s gun discussed in Ian’s post seemingly could be adopted as a carbine for the cavalry divisions.
Finally, consider how slow the Allied Militaries were in adopting sub machine guns for their own armies. The USMC did purchase some during the interwar years, but it wasn’t a standard arm. The French did some development, but had very few in service. One would think that they would have looked more seriously into development of them if they thought them important enough to ban. After all, tank development proceeded during the interwar years, as did military aviation, equipment which they saw fit to prohibit to the German Army.
To the USSR as I said above.
Damn but those interwar smg's were beautiful.
A very nicely machined and finished submachinegun!
yeah, a lot of interwar SMG's are like that and for that reason are probably my favorite era of submachineguns
Agreed. Beautiful.
This is so cool that you are still finding new and unknown smg to show ! Love these obscures and stranges designs :)
As do I :)
I was getting worried that all the weapons had been remembered
that is an interesting disassembly, looks quite quick and easy and none of the parts are that small so harder to lose. pretty clever for a 1930 gun
That disassembly is so satisfying
I love how consistent the videos from this channel are- I have been watching for 5yrs and yet I can still drop in at any time and get the same feeling
Hi Ian,
Would you consider a behind the scenes making of video? Especially a Morphy's one. I think the whole process from selection of a firearm to filming to editing would make for fascinating content.
I, too, come with an extending monopod.
Dare you to try balancing on it lol
Yeah but can you still fire your weapon in a useful manner while it's resting on the extended monopod. I really doubt it.😂😂😂
A small handful of these were purchased by the newly formed Statspoliti (National Police) in Norway in the 30s because the government feared violent labour strikes. They were probably the only SMGs in the country prior to the German invasion in 1940
Thats interesting. Thanks. Note: Groups in political power (arguably, that is in essence all that a government is ) buying weapons to use against the local population is scarcely a Norwegian invention. Govts have been doing that for millennia. Its more surprising that they chose not to get stock from Neighbour Sweden which always had a good arms industry and today is notable as a key exporter of repressive technologies.
Typical
Thanks, wet garbage!
Do you mean the European Bank? Yes, I agree. ;)
Hard to believe that this is almost 100 years old
It always amazes me how gun designers are able to come up with working complex inside firing mechanism.
Ian, Thank you.
Kinda wish a finely machined, blued, wood stocked 9mm carbine would find its way back to the market again.
Some of the lines on this gun are just aesthetically pleasing...
Henry just put out a decent looking 9mm PCC, sort of fits the bill.
I liked the way it looked but at that price I'd rather take a Ruger pcc and either make it look like a ppsh or get the folding stock model and replace some of the polymer stock and pistol grip with wood and brass
Pick up a Kalashnikov USA KR-9 and swap out the furniture for wood. Baller gun - copied (to the nth degree) from the Vityaz. Although, the triangular folding stock (that folds onto the left side of the gun) is very cool just the way it is. Proprietary mags, though.
6:57 I know exactly why he laughed :D
it's because... war was declared... *distant explosions and machinegun fire*
'War Were Declared' is his friend Othias' catch phrase...
@@BeingFireRetardant that is the reference
An elegant weapon, from a more civilized age
You have to love the madness of added value features manufacturers add to spark interest in a product.
Simplicity and functionality at it's best. A very beautiful SMG.
except the monopod ...
and the progressive trigger and selector switch redundancy ...
you know what? I'm afraid I have to disagree with you.
And the overall length, and the awkward magazine well angle, and the obsolete sight ranges, etc., etc.
It is pretty looking though.
Last Saturday my GM was running a Hollow Earth Expedition game and describes one of the goons dug-in and armed with what was obviously an ERMA, but on a monopod. I shrug it off as just him doing the full pulp novel feel and weird interwar gizmos... until youtube feed today gave me this.
And thus Ian managed to invade my tabletop RPG space.
The machining operations that it took to make this thing. And the craftsmanship. Well done, I say! Well done!
That wooden stock is beautifully made just on it's own.
that fluted barrel really is quite stunning to look at, as is the rest of the gun. Hope whoever posts the winning bid enjoys this lil unicorn thoroughly
Extremely simple - top notch engineering.
Beautiful simplicity.
Great video Ian, I all ways enjoy watching videos of forgotten weapons on Forgotten Weapons 👍
800 meters sights on a SMG. That's optimistic
Better to have 800m on the sight and not need it than to shoot 800m with a sight that doesnt go that far.
Volley fire. Have an entire platoon or company open up at a unit formed up in the open.
@@ScottKenny1978 9mm makes for pretty ineffective volley fire though.
@@ostiariusalpha the residents of the larger cities in the US would disagree, there's always a couple of people killed by dumbasses firing into the air at New Years.
@@ostiariusalpha Probably, but it will still keep the enemy's heads down! No one wants to get hit by any bullet at any range.
Evading the Versailles Treaty began almost immediately. Numbers of German designers & engineers went "abroad " To Sweden (Bofirs fir artillery), Netherlands (submarines) and Switzerland (all sorts of armaments - e.g., Solothurn & Oerlikon). Machine Pistols such as the Bergmann & Vollmer perhaps fell in a "grey area" because the police could have these.
And, so the story goes, to continue the illusion much of Germany's modern/new artillery on Sept 1, 1939 were designed "18" to suggest these were of 1918 vintage - 7.5 cm FK18, 10.5 cm lFH18, and the 8.8 cm FLAK 18. Meanwhile much of French artillery did date to WW I designs.
Any military armed with these would just dominate the battlefield with pure flex.
On the battlefield, it's drip or drown, and bother, we are floating
@@amartolo8782 oh bother, we are floating :(
Nice profile photo XD (approval from a Chinese)
7:27 Great example of the minimalistic difference between a semi-auto and a full-auto.
IMO Full-auto should not be consider a separate class of firearms - especially since bumpfire technique can cause a semi-auto version of a full-auto to fire approximated at the same rate of fire.
If anything a semi-full operation simply makes the weapon SAFER, not more dangerous
because a designed full-auto is a little bit more accurate than using bumpfire technique with the semi-auto version
Better accuracy = safer BECAUSE less likely to miss target and hit unintended collateral objects (including people)
The disassembly of that piece was really cool! Thank you Ian.
Would love to see you let a few mags go with this beauty 😍. Awesome review as always 👍🏻👍🏻👍🏻
My hope is that the new owner will let Ian record a shooting video
the machining and finish on the parts is lovely
That recoil system makes so much sense, the machining on some of those inter war smgs is stunning
Elegant in it's simplicity.
Pretty interesting firearm. Thank you Ian
It looks very well thought out and well made
Eerie message from the future. Fast forward to your next video. Turns out the monopod works just great. Cheers from Patagonia!
"war were declared" Ah, a futarama fan. 👍
C&R Arsenal fan*
Those barrel grooves add such a subtle elegance to it.
Ridiculously long receiver on this one. Just about need go go Gadget arms to change the mag. Lovely workmanship regardless.
That is one fine looking weapon.
There's a strange beauty in the simplicity of old time SMGs that I quite enjoy; thanks for showing me something I've never seen before; now my history nerd needs have been fired up and I'm going to geek out next chance I get 😎👍
Two days ago the former vice president of the German Bundestag, Antje Vollmer, passed away. I mean, what are the odds. Probably not related though.
It has a wooden stock that means I don’t hate it - society
Just don't paint it black.
society and GOVT
Even though it would be heavier, I wish they would have tried making a version without the wood.
You maybe able to burn books (1A) but with a good gun you cannot infringe as easily (2A).
@@sam__304 because black is tactical
I miss the “war were declared” in C&Rsenal videos. Glad to see ian picking up the slack.
I guess the purpose of the monopod are used for trench defense purpose.
Vollmer actually still exists today. They do any sort of metal work and they have their HQ just 1 hour from me.
How did this thing survive all those years in near pristine condition?
This is why I love your channel, showing us unique almost never before seen guns. Thank you gun Jesus.
Another fantastic piece👍
The individual historyt of that piece is probably interesting.
As an Austrian, I'm impressed by Ian's German pronunciation.
Wow, what a great piece of history. Thanks Ian.
God bless all here.
A great very interesting video and the SMG GJ.I like it.
Looks like a Playmobil SMG with that front peg.
They had one job to prevent re-armament of Germany and they couldn't even be bothered to enforce it XD
Ehh...whats the worst that could happen??......
Omw, I remember this from reading the Biggles books back in the 70s!
Can't wait for the shooting video tomorrow
"The Treaty is pretty heavily enforced"
It was very selectively enforced. The reparation payments for example were heavily enforced. And that doesn't just go for German violations. The British themselves stated that the occupation of the Rhineland was not supported by the Treaty, but that didn't stop the French.
Your pronunciation is getting better. If you say Pistole, break it into 3 bits: Pis-to-le instead of 2.
When you say 'Einzel', speak the -zel bit like there is a t as well. Kinda like a train starting to move...tz...tz...tz-ell...Ein-zel. Very interesting video, good lighting and sound too.
And of course, it should be Vollmer with an F sound, like "Follmer".
Thank you , Ian .
🐺
I now see what the wz. 39 Mors was based on.
The ' mono pod ''....what a genius man ! Excellent, use of LOGIC. wow. Men, sure must have loved, toting this thing around. Small, light and probably a very fast bullet. Being 9 mm......
7:05 Othias smiles.
The truly rare thing about this gun is that it involves a patent dispute between two gun designers that didn't dissolve into years of litigation. You just know if this was an American gun the video would be 10 minutes longer and involve a series of lengthy and ultimately fruitless court cases on both sides of the Atlantic.
Damn, I kinda wish I could go back to that time and just see what was up.
Every SMG I've seen on this channel from this period is really, really swanky and nice.
Imagine if it had a collapsible baton and instead of a monopod
As a woodworking enthusiast I was distracted by the gorgeous wood the stock is made of, would love to know what kind of wood it is.
It's funny when you said about it's called EMP and the first thing that came to mind was a Springfield EMP the micro pistol in 9 m m
I went with electro magnetic pulse.
The best part of fridays video being a machine gun is knowing it will be shot tomorrow
"War were declared." I see your Futurama reference, Ian.
Watch C&Rsenal.
@@ScottKenny1978 I want to know where they get the accompanying audio clips
@@extragoogleaccount6061 probably US government footage, which is legally free for anyone to use.
Nice Futurama reference!
I am going to guess that the makers of that firearm's furniture, literally were at one point, furniture manufacturers. The finish, the stain, the look, Hell, even the monopod remind me of some German pieces of furniture I saw when I lived there.
The condition is beautiful.
Great video
Can't wait to test it in Enlisted
@@gergoszabo7168wrong
Hooray! Another piece getting ready for Headstamp's upcoming "SMG's of the Resistance"!
Right, Ian? You're going to print that, right? ... Please ...
Is it weird when you see your last name on a smg?
Your last name is VMP-1930?
@@Montycat78 yeah its an old family name passed down for generations 🙄😂
That gun is in like new condition.
Is that a collapsible monopod in your front grip or are you just happy to see me?
Very sexy stuff. Seems to also be extremely smooth.
Hey Ian, would you ever do a video on Kalashnikov Saiga rifles and shotguns?
Now i read "With a Moped" ... which means something like "with a small motorbike"
What was the small thing that came out from there? I mean apart from that the disassembly was so sleek. Not to mention the age of the firearm!
Thanks! Why is the angle of the magazine is so strange? It appears to be somewhat of 95-100 degrees. Anybody any idea?
Don’t specifically know, but with the 9mm parabellum case slight taper that’s the direction magazines curve naturally. Possibly wanted to accommodate that ammunition stack curvature with a forward leaning magazine.
Off to the nerdery Mr!
The Thompson didn’t have a barrel shroud? Huh? The Annihilator very much did though, I’m confused
Nice Futurama reference 😄
😏I caught that othias reference
Othaias would be so proud Ian,,, but probably equally bummed that I almost certainly misspelled his name 😅😂
Hopefully Ian gets his hand on a 9A-91 and review the gun
Given the rarity I thought our host would have gloved up. Silly me.
I was thinking, "Wow, it's been forever since there's been a new Forgotten Weapons vid.." But no, CZcams just unsubscribed me at some point. What's the deal with that?
this smg looks more like an as rifle, it is huge
Looks cool!🤗
I find it interesting that in 1930 this fine weapon was produced. It has wonderful fit and finish and machined parts. Then, not many years later, we get the grease gun and the MP-38 and 40. Much cheaper than a Thompson. LOL