Encountering God in Stories
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- čas přidán 19. 03. 2017
- The patterns in stories appear as their underlying order and also as a mode of human consciousness. One can encounter the Divine Logos in ancient stories and how these culminate in the story of Christ.
This is the first part of a talk. The second part can be seen here: • Divine Patterns in The...
This talk was given in Feb. 2017 at the Climacus Conference in Louisville Kentucky: www.climacusconference.org/
The original audio was taken from Ancient Faith Radio: www.ancientfaith.com/specials/...
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This talk was life changing for me. Especially the realisation that Abel's and Cain's separate sacrifices are brought together in the Holy Eucharist. For me, saying this was a powerful epiphany is an understatement.
I guess Im asking randomly but does anyone know of a trick to log back into an Instagram account??
I was stupid forgot my login password. I would appreciate any assistance you can give me.
@Derek Brycen instablaster :)
@Elliott Robert Thanks so much for your reply. I got to the site on google and Im trying it out now.
Looks like it's gonna take a while so I will reply here later with my results.
@Elliott Robert It did the trick and I now got access to my account again. I am so happy!
Thank you so much, you saved my account !
@Derek Brycen No problem =)
I think in one of Jonathan's more recent videos with Fr. Stephen Freeman, Fr. Stephen talked about how Russian Orthodox missionaries put the idea of finding God in stories into practice in their interactions with the native Alaskans. The native Alaskans of course had many stories and myths which echo the stories in the Bible. The missionaries didn't just sweep those stories away because they weren't sourced directly from the Bible, but rather the missionaries put forth Jesus as the complete picture, of which the native stories and myths were but a small part.
I recently read a book by an Orthodox monk titled Christ the Eternal Tao. Hieromonk Damascene in the book also puts forth the idea that Jesus is the complete picture of which the Tao Teh Ching is but a small part. One interesting thing from the book (which I'm oversimplying here) is that Judaism was missing the trinitarian nature of God, Taoism was missing the personal nature of God, and Jesus completed the respective missing parts of both stories. It's an extremely interesting book. More interesting still is that Jordan Peterson at one point (at least before all his time for the next few years was scheduled) expressed interest in doing a lecture series on the Tao Teh Ching. It would have been interesting to see him put forth the Logos as the common and completing thread between Genesis and the Tao Teh Ching.
And great reminder at the end of the video that Christians should always keep in mind the bigger picture. Christ is bigger than we'll always think!
that's *wonderful*! i'm so glad there are missionaries like that. because honestly unreached unwesternised people do have an advantage over us in their myths and the unified imagery of their culture, and if we just go in and steamroller those...
i was thinking how Christ is the end of the Law, for everyone. and everyone has their own limited patterns of Him, more and less accurate, and He sweeps them all up. like.. Christ completes the role of the Jewish priests, but also the role of those Mayan priests with their human sacrifices.
or idk how the Hindu gods will have multiple limbs and such - but and Christ's body is made up of the body of *all* the church
32:38 I think C.S. Lewis & G.K. Chesterton would agree, saying that the "true myth" of Christianity is the fulfillment of all myths. . .
Wow...I can't express how freeing this journey into symbolism is for me. Everything is brought to life. The world needs to unsee so that it might see again!
"And then comes the panic and all hope is lost but it's the dissent into chaos and inversion that the thing is finally found" I hope that people find God in the chaos that is our present age
yeah.. i think we are coming into a reconstruction stage at least spiritually, because we have pretty much destroyed everything there is to destroy
If Christianity is going to rise from its ashes it need urgent reform and fast and people like you are really important in this process. Please put up more content if you can.
Well, good luck with 'reforming orthodoxy'...In all honesty, I think that it is us who need to 'reform' our minds and hearts and make the effort to understand at a deeper level the Truths and teachings that lie at the core of Christian tradition.
everything in domed to the ashes, only the process of voluntary death and Resurrection is capable of renewing the world. I would expect more from someone that understands the deeper level of truths.
Well, I'm not sure what you mean by 'everything is doomed to ashes', but if we consider the possibility that there is a real living spiritual dimension, what apparently dies on a material plane might very well be born to a higher plane of existence. Also, I never said I understand deeper levels of truths (though I did imply that I believe 'deeper level of truths' exist), what I said is that we should make an effort ourselves instead of demanding and expecting the change to come from outside of us.
you may be right, the change must come from inside. But it feels to me as like I have to create my own perfect spiritual blase and leave the rest of the world alone, I can not support that.
The other day I heard something in a lecture by Jordan Peterson (whom you might know), that I found both funny and deeply true at the same time.. I'm paraphrasing, but more or less the message was; "First sort yourself out, once you've cleaned your house leave." ;)
Thanks for the new video, Jonathan. I'm not religious, but I like your personality and how your mind works. Keep putting yourself out there :-)
Powerful stuff - Thank you Jonathan! Your insightful presentations are a pleasure to watch. What a blessing it is to have these ideas so well articulated.
Thanks Jonathon, that is helpful. My eyes are open just a little wider.
Another good talk. I get the heartening impression that he lives his ideas, that they are not just of intellectual interest, but improve the quality of his own life.
may we all
Beautiful talk about Christ is in everything ! Thank you
I'm so glad I found this guy.
"Don't sit down in hell."
This is mind blowing... Thank you Jonathan.
The only Reason I am an Orthodox Christian is because I realised the true implications of the Stories of Pascha and Nativity. These stories make such bold claims that they actually free the person to Truly be Alive, therefore they must be true, they are so perfect that only God himself could have come up with such narrative. Everytime I ponder the implication of Birth and Resurrection of Christ I am left Awe-struck.
Can you expand upon this further? I too have felt this.
I will probably make a video about this, but in essence and in a nut shell, at the base and deepest level of the human soul there appear to be 2 driving forces animating our actions, one is the need to encounter the Uncreated and the second is the Fear of Death itself, which in a sense is the encounter with the uncreated realm also. The fear of death at its deepest sense enslaves us from being truly human, we cannot overcome our hate if we fear death, we cannot love our enemies if we fear death, we cannot be truly God like if we fear death - these are just some examples.
Jesus Christs Resurrection shows the individual that Death can be defeated and has been overcome, Christ has destroyed death by his death, his promise to us is resurrection in this world, not a life in heaven. His promise is that we too will defeat death. Therefore the individual no longer needs to fear death, he can love his enemies and bless those who persecute him, he can be truly God like and not fear the ultimate enemy of man, death itself.
Second is Nativity, and the Birth of Jesus Christ who is both God and Man, which means he is God, the God who sustains existence itself, the God who is uncreated yet sustains his creation, God who is the only 'thing' which exists in uncreation (i.e Nothing). There is a driving force in each individual which drives us to seek this "uncreation", the dwelling place of only Truth, why do we want to learn? or why do we want to know ourselves? why do we seek knowledge, what is driving us? why are we never satisfied? even is we knew all the knowledge of the universe and creation itself, if we understood and proved everythign with our knowledge, and had a human civilization expanding the whole universe, do you think we would be finally satisfied? or would we want still more?
I think we would still want more, we would still be driven for more, but what drives us for this something more when we know and understand the whole creation itself? It's that on a deepest possible level we know that what we are chasing isn't the 'created' but the 'uncreated', the uncreated is the ultimate mystery, it is the only experience we cannot experience within creation itself.
The birth of Jesus Christ who is God means that the 'Uncreated" has become "Created", the ultimate mystery has come to us, it is like entire cosmos compressing itself into a speck of dust yet that picture doesn't do it justice to the magnitude of that claim. What the human soul is chasing on the deepest level has come into creation, it has become man, and it wants you to know it.
I know this might not make sense, because the implications of these ideas and Orthodox Claims are cosmic and touch the deepest levels of our soul, they are so perfect that there is no way humans could have invented them, the entire story of Jesus Christs life and Christian narrative perfectly completes the human individual that these claims cannot be false, they are divine, therefore Christianity must be true.
If given the task, the entire human conscience couldn't have made up such a story which perfectly fulfilled the deepest human thirsts, the story of Christ Birth, death and resurrection can only be said to be divine in it nature.
Hope this helps.
I know it's abit out there. But the Orthodox Christian claims are absolutely mind blowing
FirstAmongSinners this make so much sense.
@@christianmessagefrommoscow5191 I think those two driving forces can be found in the story of evolution too. Animals only have that fear of death. They are not adapted to the world in general, but only to their own specific environments and niches. They do not wander outside of their environments because it would mean their deaths.
Humans uniquely have that second drive to encounter the Uncreated. On the material level, that manifests itself as a drive to explore the unknown, to venture into new environments, to overcome the fear of death because we can feel that there is something more waiting for us out there. I think what the story of evolution is missing really is the Image of God. We are made in the Image of God, so we have a drive to share in His creativity, to make order out of chaos.
Atheist Darwinists refuse to acknowledge the Image of God, so they state nonsense that humans are no different from animals when we clearly are. You see King Solomon start going down similar lines at the end of Ecclesiastes 3, when he observes that we are like the animals. He then gives the antidote to the nihilism that results from following that line of thought to its logical conclusion, when he tells us to "Remember your Creator." (Ecc. 12:1) It is when we remember our Creator, and His death and resurrection, that we realize we can overcome our fear of death that we share with the animals and become truly human, embracing the Image of God.
Mr. Pageau, as a Texan, I am obliged to inform you that the movie "The Alamo" is not a throwaway story. Every school child is required by law to learn about the role the Alamo defenders played in the fight for Texas independence. This I say unto you: Remember the Alamo!
Great talk, Jonathan. You do a good job articulating some of the ideas I've been wrestling with and trying to work out and help me order my own thoughts.
Your explanation of the Eucharist is so touching and insightful. Thank you.
By the way, the word Eucharist in Greek comes from the word eucharisto, which means thank you, its a thanksgiving.
Such a helpful explanation! And what gorgeous artwork---thank you!
Very stimulating - thank you.
Amazing. Thank you Jonathan. This put into words the concepts that have been been blowing my mind for the past 6 months. It’s refreshing and exciting to participate in. I’ll be sharing this video.
This was a fantastic lecture, thank you for this
Thank you for your work.
Genius insight!
I really appreciate your analysis. I think your talks are really important for our present post modern malaise. I would love to hear your review or synopsis of Tarkovsky's film Andrei Rubliev particularly the story about the boy bell maker. I look forward to that possibility.
Thank you
Brilliant.
Amazing
Beautiful :)
27:35 . . .as C.S. Lewis says, "true myth" ! (Also, G.K. Chesterton / The Blatchford Controversies, Collected Works vol. 1)
Also Tolkien (On Fairy-Stories) :)
DREAM MAKERS:
I have found an appreciation for the gift of dream interpretation. My life’s story can be broken down into the themes of my own personal dreams. Some are mistaken who might think that I have literally lived a life according to my original dreams.
What I have found is that what is more relevant than the dreams or the interpretations are the actual stories that drive them.
Hence my life is lived in stories that my dreams can best retell.
When I tell others one or two themes or stories, they reflect on what maybe God through Christ has been trying to show them about their own lives through the personal themes of dreams.
As they associate their own stories to have relevance with each interpretation, then a special and spiritual bonding with Christ can happen.
Stories make an impression and are easy and safe to retell, with reflection. This reminds us, for the purposes of spiritual self edification, that we can commune with Christ and learn to interpret our own stories, themes, and dreams.
Bible Quotation: “The Jews require a sign but the Gentiles seek after wisdom”.
“Life is meant to be lived through the application of personal identity and not through the mere pursuit of finding one “
The wheels within wheels are more like a lattice of intersecting circles like you'd find in the sacred geometry(seed of life, flower of life, etc.)...in my experience at least....vast, boundless, infinite, but also reducible to a single one.... something like that
The fundamental pattern of life. Cell division
Wow!😮
Where can I find more sermons like this
Jonathan Pageau I binge watch them all, you, peterson, your brother, I wish I could put into words, my love for you guys. I grew up deep south Baptist, everything was literal, and I was essentially shunned for my questions and they couldn't give me answers, I was stuck in the world I couldn't explain for the past 15 years where I saw truth in the bible but not literally fact. This tormented me. nights of fear and anguish The level of love I have for y'all I can't express. Thank you, thank you so much. I have found peace because of yall. Now I get to look at scripture with new eyes and a new heart. You have soothed my soul. Thank you.
Thank ... God :) & it's a lecture, not sermon, iDon't think he's a priest just an inteligent brother :). Wouldn't be so quick to say that the bible isn't ENTIRELY literal either, I dont think thats what hes saying
@@sectofspiders4777 aaah same! Independent Baptist. this is like walking out into open air and light.
umm
the Bible Project has a similar view of scripture? also David Bentley Hart's books are fantastic
Us the second part of this talk available online? I can't find it in JP channel.
In the most simple form. The divine is the pattern itself. A process. As above so below.
25:03 Wow ! 😀 Agreed ! At the same time, as Jordan Peterson says, there is a difference between art and propaganda. . .
❤
❤️☦️❤️
Jonathan,
Can you please describe more you’re claim that critics of Christianity are wearing “Christian glasses” to criticize Christianity. I understand this means they see the world through the lens of Christianity, but how exactly? I’ve heard you say this before. Is it because we see story and reality as described in the Bible? And if so how? I know your lectures are precisely geared to this claim, but I would really appreciate it if you could break it down entirely. That claim alone. How is it exactly “modern day/new atheist” are wearing “Christ glasses”. It still isn’t articulated clear enough to click in me. Yet I also know that studying symbolism in greater depth will further that. However addressing that issue precisely would greatly help me, and I get the feeling, several others. Thank you so much for all your work, it has been deeply meaningful and helpful to me.
That might be a good idea for a video, so I will ponder it. In this particular case, it is mostly regarding Frazer, who despite saying that we could show that Christianity had 'stolen' the idea of the dying and resurrecting god, it is rather Frazer interpreting the ancient myths with his "Christian glasses" and seeing Christ in the ancient myths without even realizing it.
We must retake Constantinople as rightful Orthodox clay!!!
Да, конечно. Но сначала нужно убить дракона в Киеве 🐉 😉
3:15 katabasis / kenosis. . .
Thank you for the brain candy.
TV shows cancelled after one season are indicative of bad storytelling? Not true. Given the human element & the profit motive, the duration of a story in broadcasting is no indication of its quality. Both "Firefly" & "Wonderfalls" were cancelled early but have marvelous stories to tell.
Given that a person who reads the old stories of the Jewish blood cult with the intent of symbolically linking them to the story or myth of Christ, is that not a perfect example of beginning with your assumption & working from your conclusion? Just as you can interpret Cain & Abel in the context of Christ, I could interpret the story of Kirk & Khan as foreshadowing & linked to the struggle of Picard & Q.
I suppose the point is they are stories and all art can be subjective. There is little to elevate the fables of Jesus over the mythic journey of Odysseus, and both can be examined in order to draw lessons for a modern life. This doesn't mean I suddenly begin praying to Athena. Christianity continues to exist not due to its truth, but due to the violence & fanaticism with which its adherents eliminated other stories. To suggest it endures & therefore it must be a path to truth is dangerous if we make the same allowance for older religions such as Hinduism, or slightly younger ones such as Islam.
Oh no, flood narratives are common in ancient myth! It is almost enough to make a person think most civilizations were organized near rivers & bodies of water. Perhaps the sense of being baffled is merely cognitive dissonance.
Christianity was once a unifying thread of Western civilization, prior to the point at which our social & economic ties became more relevant. Therefore, it is insignificant to suggest veracity in Christian stories merely due to their dominance. Be assured challenges to these tales from outside the West would not be framed in Christian specs. Being born & raised a slave in a foreign land & speaking only the tongue of the conquerors does not make the conquest or slavery legitimate. Of course, Yahweh might disagree as slavery was both regulated & recommended in these barbaric tales. Odd that an unchanging & eternal god's moral views adjust to the culture through which the deity is viewed.
The violence and fanaticism of (some) adherents of Christianity is the height of hypocrisy. Even so, this did not eliminate other stories. Secularists love to point out how so many Christian traditions are rooted in older pagan traditions. So were other stories eliminated, or did they continue to live in the Christian story?
And this mixing of stories isn't necessarily violent in all cases. Russian Orthodox missionaries learned the stories of native Alaskans and linked them to the story of Christ. The missionaries even served to counteract the excesses of Russian fur traders, opposing their exploitation of native Alaskans as their Christian faith called on them to do.
@@josephpchajek2685 your point is irrelevant