The Only Solution to Culture
Vložit
- čas přidán 11. 06. 2019
- As we watch our culture become blander and less cohesive, we need to ask the hardest questions, about distraction and entertainment, about the possibility of participation and how this relates to liturgy as the ultimate word of art.
From May 2019 Shared Inheritance conference, "Growing in the Likeness of God: Eastern Spirituality in the modern world".
To support this and future conferences, please visit the Shared Inheritance website and make a one-time or recurring donation. For more information, please visit www.shared-inheritance.com/ or email them at info@shared-inheritance.com.
Links
website: www.shared-inheritance.com/
facebook: / sharedinheri. .
youtube channel: czcams.com/channels/P9v.html...
email: info@shared-inheritance.com
My links:
Support this channel: thesymbolicworld.com/support/
patreon: / pageauvideos
subscribestar: www.subscribestar.com/jonatha...
paypal: www.paypal.me/JonathanPageau
website: www.thesymbolicworld.com
facebook: / thesymbolicworld
twitter: / pageaujonathan
The unofficial facebook discussion group:
/ 1989208418065298
My website designers, Anomalist Design: www.anomalistdesign.com/
![[柴犬ASMR]曼玉Manyu&小白Bai 毛发护理Spa asmr](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/0TsXQ7z2Dh4/mqdefault.jpg)
Came here as a farmer thinking I have no culture and left realizing that I’m an artist 😂
Hopefully one day you will leave as a member of the True Church founded on Peter the rock, outside of which there is no salvation.
@@johnnymuen4948 Just one example why that is false: Baptism. Mark 16:6 and John 3:5
There are conditions.
@@James-bx5yd It was He who denied salvation for those who 1)are not baptized 2) dont believe, see Mark 16:6 and John 3:5. If you can accept that, then you can accept that being part of the Church is necessary, too.
@@voxpopuli8132 If you think scripture is 100% factual then yikes..
@@James-bx5yd That is what Jesus said. If you start picking and choosing which is factual and which is not, the whole thing just falls apart.
"In the medieval village, where do you put the Church? In the middle."
to which I add... "In an American city, what did you put at its center? The government courthouse."
I had the same thought.
I would say bank instead? But it is a minor difference from my point of view anyway.
Not only that.. but banks, Market place like Malls...
Media is at its center
The mall is the center now, but even that is going away. Pretty soon there will be none.
Vox: Pepe promoter Jonathan Pageau pitches Final Solution
Yea I noticed that too...unsubbed...skedaddled... I mean Harry Potter in a monastery LOL !!!
Is commenting on Jonathan's videos participatory or entertainment?
Futile.
Both!
If it is participatory, then so is "liking" on Facebook.
for sure is not participatory, maybe it is not just intellectual entertainment. but these are the limits of "online". We have books, then gatherings, then conferences, then we can together be with friends or smart people, this online is very good too, but it is a little sad and hollow. Film as art, hahaha, I never thought so, it is ridiculous. even If we think about "great classics", it is not art. It is a great form of sharing ideas, great images, symbolism sometimes, rhythm, emotions, stories, characters, etc.
The Problem of Art. (0:35)
1:14 The Fusion Work of Art, The Opera (Music, Dance, Drama)
5:53 Why are we there? The Problem of Entertainment.
We think Culture is Entertainment _Amusing Ourselves To Death_
7:10 Performance and Consumption
8:02 Traditional Culture is participative.
Museums are Graveyards for old relics
9:23 Deincarnation
11:04 Art means "Fitting Together Properly"
12:53 Things we take for granted were once highly valued by generations of the past
14:30 Art is not tangible. Art is in the Artist. Art is the human capacity to create. Craft, Craftsman
24:38 Monasteries
26:28 Spiderman, _Into The Spiderverse_
Thank you 👍
“This life's dim windows of the soul
Distort the heavens from pole to pole
And leads you to believe a lie
When you see with, not through, the eye.”
~ William Blake
...Why is Jonathan Pageau the only person talking about this?
Not the only one. Many of these things are told by another christian artist, Marko Ivan Rupnik, although not in English and not with that many references to popular culture which make Jonathan much more accessible.
I know dude, it's like there is a flow of nonsense and misinformation when it comes to deep shit on youtube, but he's so normal in the way he explains his material
Literally everything he's saying is derived from notions developed within cultural anthropology, structuralist literary theory, etc... it's just that for some reason everyone here has been taking jordan peterson WAY too seriously so all of those fields get demonized as "postmodernism".
@@Nalhek ironically orthodoxy came before enlightenment/protestant arrogance
-petterson
When talking about Spiderman, Jonathan should remember the movie Ratatouille: "In the past, I have made no secret of my disdain for Chef Gusteau's famous motto: "Anyone can cook." But I realize, only now do I truly understand what he meant. Not everyone can become a great artist, but a great artist can come from anywhere."
Ah, from the cold restaurant critic.
@@arnowisp6244 Exactly.
I get all emotional when I see that bit and you just did it to me again!
@@dragonfriend6874 Me too, man. Me too.
What did you think it meant before?
"Culture is not your friend."
~Terence McKenna
I feel like something horrible happened after medieval times. I love the emphasis on God and nobility of those times. I wish we could live in a culture like that.
They had to otherwise I imagine any semblance of good in society would collapse. There was a lot more suffering at the time.
@@MrDreadEnd
Lot of suffering still today. We've just shifted our focus to things that don't last and therefore aren't a strong foundation.
@@MrDreadEnd Industrialism and scientific materialism benefited humanity but never sorted out a cultural and moral element.
People still have no solutions. But the vreak really came after WW I a manufactured Masonic, Zionistic war.
Thank you for this beautiful presentation. Within the last two years it was wild ride with you and Jordan Peterson.
Greetings from Serbia, keep up the good work!
Konačno da se neki Srbin javi. Da li nas ima još? Nadam se da ima teologa.
Yeah, Peterson turned out to be a fraud.
@@voxpopuli8132 How so?
@@djordje.s. czcams.com/video/WXYuqrO8LLo/video.html
@@voxpopuli8132 I think that Jonathan will disappoint as well. Heck he tries to avoid politics as much as he can.
Funny thing you mentioned that culture is participatory. That's the thing that I'm feeling as an amateur musician. I'm not really that interested in going to concerts, hearing all those bands that I take inspiration from. I don't even play home alone much. I'm only really interested in playing or singing with other people, creating beautiful colours of harmonies, or rhythms that lift people up on their feet.
pu3he Same
It actually seems like the modern concept of the stage and idolizing is the band is mental illness . Seems like music is meant to be participative with everyone in the community
@@morrisalanisette9067American “Idol”, we don’t even hide it anymore…*vomiting*
Excellent talk. I especially liked your emphasis on entertainment and the church and the new geek liturgies. I have been studying music history seriously. And years ago I came to the conclusion that traditional arts had three components: the artistic or meaning component, the function or decorum (in the traditional sense of the word), and the communicative or entertaining quality. In music once Beethoven became a capital 'A' Artist, he cut the top of the triangle of artistic meaning off. And the meaning of the work began to drift away from both its function and its entertainment aspects. And eventually big Art becomes purely philosophical anti-meaning, all functions cease to have any beauty, and entertainment becomes maipulative fast food. That is the end result of the 20th Century. Jonathan thanks for reminding me that I need to share these things.
"we have reduced culture to distraction, removed meaning"
Carrying around my phone as I listen @JonathanPageau, it seems the new center, the altar, is the screen. The notification bell is the call to gather in one "place" to commune through texts, "Likes", and emoticons (vs icons?). The missing element is the physical gathering, but I speak more to people in these comment sections than I say at actual church service.
But the bell is constantly ringing and you have the screen in your pocket or on the night stand - at all times within reach. So these are not at all analogous. Sacred is just gone from basic model of XXI Century Western life.
One should think of the notification bell as a call to prayer throughout the day. If we prayed to God that often, we'd be in much better shape both personally, and as a culture.
Video games are the total work of art, and participatory
@@calo-kg2cy Role-playing games are the best example genre-wise
I wouldn't say there're the total work of art but they could be just below Liturgy in the hierarchy. A good example of this would be Journey by thatgamecompany.
Agreed. It's a real shame Jonathan doesn't do video games. Video games are a bigger market than film and music combined. That alone should be reason enough to pay close attention to what's happening there.
The only thing missing from video games is that participation in a game isn't participation in something higher than ourselves, like liturgy is meant to be. Games can teach us about spiritual truths, just like books and movies, but playing the game still isn't the same as participating in the Truth.
Bring back Christian video games!
Every time I hear you talk about these things I think of Star Wars and what has been done to it and it really breaks my heart.
Sentient Viscera wait till you see what's been done to Christianity
Querymonger, I'm aware. I actually think Star Wars was seeding a true new Western "liturgy." I also think it's over for Christianity, and has been for centuries. The Orthodox Church might carry on in small numbers, but the Protestant side is corrupt from the bottom up and Catholicism is continually laid bare before the world.
Great video. I've been struggling with alienation and a feeling of meaninglessness in my life. I think we need a value structure that goes beyond the desire for survival in order to live with purpose.
We're too concerned with remaining alive I think. Modern culture and it's stories/entertainment put too much emphasis on stasis and sticking around.
We die, man. That's part of how this works. I think we're supposed to use our finitude. The martyrs of the early church probably moved history forward by whole decades with their actions and living art performances.
If we were doing the Logos thing really accurately, the Empire would be trying to kill us.
We're supposed to be a threat to Rome. Instead we buy tickets to the Circus Maximus.
I think this is a fantastic comment, really got me thinking. Thanks
@@iankclark I hope it's clear then that I don't mean the kind of vulgar feigned righteousness of suicide bombers.
I think that answer is myopic and self-serving, and does nothing to break the cycle Cain started.
Just wanted to make that clear because I read my wording after I made the comment and I saw how it could be misnterpreted as encouraging a certain kind of violent Christian jihad.
Which would be the total opposite of what I think Christ himself pointed to.
mythfingers No need to worry but I’m glad you cared enough to be clear about it. The crux of the matter is where is my fear of heartbreak or humiliation stopping me from even realizing what I can do to make a difference. The price of hiding out is crushing to the soul, that much I understand. It’s time to wrestle with God and not give in to the lie that I am powerless in the matter.
@@iankclark yeah! I think that's the Human Thing™
@@KrustyKrabbz2 *rubs **-templars-** temples*
Events give meaning to time and church gives meaning to space... amazing!!
"when we live for entertainment, thats a problem"
Amen. Amen! Amen. This is by far the best concise yet total account of what basically everything and Jonathan is about, that i have seen from him. Summing essentially the whole problem of the world by showing the patterns by which it exists and effectively grounding them in easily accessible example of the current state of the world. Beautifully critical and yet empathetic and human and even hilarious at the right times. What a blend! I am SO amazed this could be presented in such a short time so eloquently. And i feel even in a language accessible to people poorly-versed in realizing the meaning in the world. Holy Spirit is blessing you strongly Jonathan. But I am even more grateful and joyful that this and other similar potent stuff is being sown into the world now. May God bless all those who are striving to bring His meaning and glory back into the world through making stories, liturgical images, architecture, plain words and any other means!
Perhaps the most well flowing talk I have heard from you, and I think that I have watched all of your publicly posted content. Peace be with you.
You are a genius. This man is my involuntary guru.
Oh wow. What he said about the monastery broke my heart.
Incredible, Jonathan. Can’t wait to send you my new book that we talked about. Advanced copies should be ready this fall. I’m super excited but also intimidated to have you look at it! I thought I knew symbolism but MAN!
I'm a Mormon fan of Pageau. Our liturgy was only fractionally developed before Joseph Smith was killed in 1844, and none of his successors were Saints as he was; none climbed to the top of the mountain. So we lack a true sacred calendar and have an underdeveloped ritual cycle, and therefore we suffer from the same derealization, disintegration, and incoherence that characterizes much of modern life. Talks like this help me flesh out my understanding of the telos of what we DO have, and gives me a glimpse of some missing pieces. Very grateful.
I am inviting you to atend to a traditional christian service: catholic or orthodox, i am sure you would like it
Im struggling with writing since I came to church. I feel like my new found sense of mirality prevents any creativity or interesting story to come out. So the ,,margins" and the whole speech actually have been tremenduously useful! Thank you so much!!!
This video is so underrated.
Pageau's videos lately have been so hype I can't even stand it.
Go, Jon. Gogogogo. Keep gooooiiiiing.
thanks and cheers to the success of your graphic novel Jonathan! I'm a concept artist who's also learning and has taken an interest in making stories with liturgical symbolic narratives. Keep up the good work in sharing your knowledge to us. Greetings from the Philippines!
Brilliant!! God bless you and keep you
I have been thinking a lot on this subject lately, thank you for inspiring análisis.
Time well spent. Thank you so much.
Must admit beautiful art!!! A gift you have trully
Great presentation, those iconographs are unbelievably well crafted!
My utmost respect.
Great, Great, Great lecturer. Thank's Mr Pageau.
A view week a go you talked about how 'space and time' are more and more come together. That was also a great talk.
I thought al lot about that a couple of year's a go. Then i discovered the idea that say's, that it is a bad idea to let childeren decide what's what's good for them. And that adult's give that what they want.
in another metaphor : it's like a harmonica effect what's happing (just like space and time will come together). Youthly thought's, choice's, toy's, food, drinks, playing are all around us. Not all so for kids, but al so for adult, young adult's. You can play with toy-like computers, games, toy like car's. Just what you said 'one mardi gras fest'.
If real childeren, age of 5, 6, 7, 8. Would play voor 5 day's a week. We would say 'that's is bad idea' put them into school, let's do some sport's.
But we allow it for people from the age of 16 till much older, 35, 36 may be 40.
But here is the problem with space and time. What if we say and see, that 35 and some older, all child like, and the people with age of 25, doing the same thing, They play with the stuff, kids from 18 and 19 years old, doing and having the same things.
They wil al be some day 35 or 40 years old (and finely older). Then in 50 years al the people playing, and enjoy child like music, child like films, games and so an.
Time is all the age's, and space is what we do. This is comeming more closly together.
Finely (we hope not). It will come to a stop. Al age's ( people) will have child like behaviour.
All of them wil not know ore see what they realy need, And they stay in that state forever?
and that, we can discribe as a form of hell , if it stay's that way.
I think you are accectly right that the only way out of that is, if we participad in more adult like behaviour, learn form older time's, use the knowlegds of older story's. We can start with rituals and sort daily silence for prayer, eating, and sleeping. And we know and use them from older people and space and time.
Sorry for my english.
Thanks for al the tings you give and are.
Benito. from Holland
Thank You from Italy, brother.
Great video Jonathan. A lot of things to chew on.
Best yet Johnathan! Especially love the last 5 minutes and your plea to not stoop to propaganda to defend or promote faith.
Thank you for deep insights, Jonathan. God bless you.
Looking forward to your book. Thanks. Good ideas. Brilliant symbols study.
I don't believe in the "art resides in the artist only" angle. I believe an artist bestows their artistry into their art.
This reminds me of a Tolstoy book I read a few years back. Might have been "A Confession and Other Religious Writings"
Thank you
Thank you. Thank you.
This is a great take
Brilliant talk! So many useful insights and it’s helping me gradually piece together all that you are laying out.
As a cellist and opera director it gives me a lot to think about in terms of how to incorporate these ideas into what I produce.
(I’ll let the description of opera as elitist slide. (But note: I regularly go for cheaper than a cinema ticket, and certainly it’s easy to go more cheaply than a football match!))
There is a cultural perception of a sort of snobbishness to opera goers - similar to vegans - there is that sense that somehow they see themselves as better people, or a sort of 'higher caste' than everybody else.
It's possible - but not easy - to shift that cultural perception.
Lol "let slide" :) while you do include squirming about it, so how have you "let it slide"? And even extend apologetics over it ... pathetic.
Peteruspl thanks for the constructive criticism. Really useful.
This guy needs more subs!
We are all an artist inside the biggest and most beautiful art.
This is great
This is awesome. I was wrestling with this throughout 2020 and I eventually came to a lot of these conclusions. Here is the rough bullet point summary that I made for myself to recall the revelations I was having. Where I refer to nonattachment, I am referring to the Buddhist sense of letting go of control as that concept (though not Buddhism all the way) seemed like an alternative to consumerism that at least required addressing.
• I experienced a reoccurring feeling of dissatisfaction when consuming, and longed for art, content, or experience to consume that would show me true beauty.
• I eventually realized that I was chasing my discontentment in the very act of consumption and that I could not find satisfaction there.
• Humans are dependent, weak, made to participate, made to give and receive. Most uniquely of all, humans were made to perceive.
• The beauty I'm looking for springs from a great harmony of all of creation according together with one voice in the pattern set by our maker.
• If I if I practice nonattachment I lose my place in this pattern. If I seek self-fulfillment then I seek my own pattern, or at the very least demand that the pattern do something to satisfy me as an entity that is separate from the pattern.
• If however I
○ submit to my limitations,
○ perceive the pattern and my place in it,
○ give the very breath of my lungs to this harmony, and
○ participate by grabbing hands with the people in the world around me,
• Then the overwhelming beauty that I will bear witness to will
○ drowned out every cry for more that my dissatisfaction has ever uttered, and
it will make me glad that I never became so detached as to lose my place in the tapestry of God's design.
40:00 love the ending!
Very good, thank you.
Great conclusion
13:49 the town in the bottom left, that's Bad Ischl, my hometown!!!! never would've thought to see it in a video like this. I'm stunned!
Brilliant.
I can definitely confess that living in the constant carnival is incredibly exhausting.
Thanks!
Your art is exquisite
My favorite Opera is Arkhnaten. I can see how Opera is important. It uses the quadrivium and the trivium both. These are the 7 circles surrounding Iesus/Baphomet imagry on Cathedrals.
I‘d love to hear you talk about Four Quartets
Amazing 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
Awww, you put our Patriarch as picture for the video ❤️❤️❤️
When he talks of time, it reminds me a lot of sacred time talked about by Mircea Eliade. Sounds similar to my ears
Great talk! The only criticism I have (although a big one) is that you, as well as the current culture you criticize, seem to be trapped in an empty room looking out "the window of the past". And that (like the rest of us) you get lost in the scenery until the frames of the window start to dissipate and you forget that you haven't exited the room you were in all along. In this case the window is set to medieval times.
It's only now that we are looking for a past tradition to save us that we consider those traditions "artistic" (In medieval times there was a big distinction made between pagan art and religious art. Not all crafts were considered equally valuable or rather not all the purposes that art was made for were equally esteemed). When we look at the past our gaze remains in the present. And we have a very impatient gaze that's looking to satisfy the needs of today. In that quest it only sees a very specific partial image of the past.
Why do you give art a necessary pragmatic element to it? I would hesitate to say that art has a "use". What would that use be? To unite society? Has it worked in that regard so far? Is true art then only the art that makes societies "progress"? How do we value that "advancement" anyway? Or could art's use reside rather in the spiritual realm? Could it function as an spiritual healer? Kind of like a pill that we take in favor of conformity when we feel purposeless?
The best art is able to transcend society and it's conveniences (at least partially). Art can be damaging for the wellbeing of culture itself. The most daring and meaningful it is, the most dangerous it becomes. So I can understand why it has been swiped away into obscurity in a pragmatic/nihilistic society. I love art though, but I don't think it has a pragmatic use to it, not even a "spiritual use", because I wouldn't convine the words "spiritual" and "use" in the first place.
I disagree with a couple things here. In the first paragraph you say that he's looking in a small window of the past, yet I think if you capture the relevant, integral parts of the past, you can relate them to integral patterns in today's society and make a point; like the metaphysics of pepe for instance, and the reemergence of the clown figure through things like the joker and drag queens. Also, your third paragraph shows proof of misconception. "Is true art then only the art that makes societies "progress"?"; no, but art that upholds meaning, participation and liturgy is a sign of a conscious society and is probably the reason why it's famous in the first place. Good art is a product of society, nonetheless. It's a litmus test of the human experience
What justifies your taking up space in the universe? That’s a good question.
giving meaning to time...
I think if you pay close attention to the absolute top-end video games right now Jonathan, they have supplanted the movie. They're more vital and more interesting. They are also a participative experience. A straightforward example is God of War.
True culture is “symbols of shared meaning”. Culture is not what is consumed or observed, it is what is experienced in relationships. This is why there should be no graven images of God because to represent him, is to devalue what he is.
Symbols of shared meaning are graven images. Anything inscribed or recorded or drawn is a thing of the past not the present moment of living.
In the Eon of Observation where the medium is the message, it is true indeed that art goes to die in an art gallery or museum. "Look, but don't touch". We should be returning to the Participation Eon where participation mystique transcends entertainment and elevates experience to magic.
🔥🔥🔥🔥🔥
Hmm, I'd recommend checking out Josef Pieper's Leisure: The Basis of Culture and The Philosophical Act, as well as Dietrich von Hildebrand's Aesthetics
Alright fine I'll get baptized already
Hahaha a good attitude towards getting baptized you have there :D
Any updates on the graphic novel about St. Christopher? Your article and video were very helpful, but St. Christopher has such strange symbolism I don't know how to begin to express it. I believe I witnessed symbolism surrounding St. Christopher manifest itself on the world stage last year, but I don't have the language to unravel the core of it. Also, there are dark elements connected to the symbolism that were burdensome for me to confront without being able to grasp the significance. The events I noticed was synchronous with the calendar year, but I think the symbolism goes back before the time of Christ. There are even connections to the Old Testament. I was made aware of the thorny issue on St. Christopher's western feast day without trying or even knowing it was his feast day; I'm a "protestant" so there's no reason why I would know his feast day & I was doing unrelated study so it was completely synchronistic beyond my control. I feel guilty for not sharing it with you, but the symbolic interpretation of real world events can be a hard pill to swallow. Doing so can feel like psychological projection & beyond my scope of understanding. It's funny though, at the time last year when I was thinking more deeply about the symbolism, it came to my mind about how cool of a movie it would make if someone could manage. St. Christopher's has so much hope to offer in his relation to Christ through his story. Are there any symbolic world groups that people can participate in? Thanks for your work. Great talk btw.
a solvent for culture...
Many people would say the purpose of modern art is to challenge old ideas, older values and bring forth new ones. Also the purpose of older art was many fold. There was education (usually Biblical stories) and there was beauty or what's pleasing. So I don't think older art was functionless.
Art is just another word for creation. It's a superfluous word. Everyone is an artist. Some artists are worth avoiding and some are worth engaging. Basically..
the obsession of modern art with unique, new expression looks a lot like a futile search for a creator via humanities trinkets. if art is truthful it must connect with the past, but art can lie and devils make.
Problem with modern art is that it is obsessed with novelty it lacks the long term gravitas of works like the Notre Same Cathedral.
Beautiful speech, Jonathan. I wonder how we can get Protestants to understand this message.
identifying as a Protestant, raised in a Catholic home, I'm here for all of what Jonathan is saying. I'm digging it. Thankfully I was able to give myself a title when raised into position as "worship leader" of the church. I renamed the position to "Liturgical Director" (;
Yo....this legit just blew my fucking mind
High from Spring 2021; where all activity is quashed except Consumption and Witch Hunts.
I both love and despise this guy at the same time. He has broad knowledge and some fantastic insights and at the same time he loves his premade conclusions.
It's like connect the dots where one dot is contemporary problem and the other is returning religion as a hegemonic force. This man is definitely on a mission and it's not a one of unveiling the truth.
And what is this truth.. that church is evil? He's already explained that people are religious anyways, just in different ways.
.
Jonathan your point about what art was once considered and the dangers of wanting to innovate christian iconography ring true but isn’t innovation necessary to keep these traditions alive? This lecture itself for example or Matthieu’s book the Language of creation innovate in the sense that they place the language of ancient tradition in its proper context, offering a much clearer understanding to the modern mind than the scriptures and traditions alone can provide, as the deeper meaning is no longer self evident to most. Couldn’t Christian art be innovated to also act as a bridge in this way, making these patterns of truth more self evident to the modern person? Or perhaps instead of seeking to change the traditional art, instead producing new art that serves the purpose of illuminating the traditional art, just like these insights don’t change or amend scripture but offer a means of understanding it? How can these traditions survive our deeply rooted materialistic worldview otherwise?
Because truth stands outside of innovation; another way to look at it could be that truth is innovation eternally acted out. Materialism always descends the vibrational scale into void and nihil, it is a movement eternal AWAY from truth and by association innovation. Any innovation concocted by materialism must by geometric necessity due to its perpendicular position to truth move eternally away from it, and in doing so suffer eternal death
In summary, truth doesn’t need to condescend to materialism, because materialism will either seek be absorbed into truth and reject devolution, or continue its path.
💗
Although I am a big fan of sci-fi, there is something I find bizarre and off-putting about the entire convention & cosplay culture. Come to think of it, it is a similar kind of disgust I have at the services of the Fundamental Baptist churches of my youth. It seems all mindless social conformity in the service of deranged fantasy. In fact, I tend to be uneasy about pomp & ceremony in any manifestation, as if I can smell a whiff of tyranny even in a parade. When people, as Jonathan Haidt states, start "circling" (google it if you don't know the reference), I get ready to hurl. I don't think that makes me better or worse just different, but does anybody else here watching this video feel the same way?
Want to comment just because Haidt made me realize the opposite: despite my rational, semi-spiritual/semi-atheist adulthood, I feel the urge to be part of something larger. Once I accepted that urge and how my identification with Fandoms was an incarnation of that urge, the pomp of religious life appealed to me again.
People are drawn to different things.
Hi Andrew, It’s been two years since you wrote looking for a kindred spirit. Well, you found one in me. What you wrote struck a deep chord that resonates with my revulsion of anything that ceremonially institutes tyranny as if dressing it in sheep’s clothing.
It did diminish my career as an educator when I resisted the pomp and circumstance of academia although I love the ceremonial music by that name used as graduations.
You explain my revulsion so clearly that your words finally verbalized for me clear feelings for which I found no words to explain to others why I have always shunned such forms of participation.
As a professor I was expected to adore and uphold my power to pass or fail and the many times I was nominated best teacher but declined to follow through to actually have that title and it’s perks awarded to me. I also passed on doin things I was expected to valorize like the graduation ceremony which is really an academic ritual ratifying the power of the academic and the state to accept initiates into their ranks as graduates capable of certain forms of knowledge. Yet no one around me could see the tyrannical intent behind what most saw as innocent and laudable recognitions of personal achievement. You have to be in the systems to see which achievements are celebrated and which are not. The ones most celebrated are the most profitable ones that accentuate the power of charitable foundations and corporations to guide research and teaching only in line with their production agenda. Needs of the people are ancillary and become secondary outcomes except when some newly invented method, technique, or product is promotes as being for the people when like they shot it’s really designed to generate profits never before known by humanity at the expense of the people and often to the long-term detriment of their physical and mental well-being.
This reminds me of an interview I saw when the creator of Facebook confessed he left the company knowing he had earned millions by meeting a need of those in power who commissioned him through their investment to create a platform that would disintegrate the social fabric. This he admitted that the engineering project behind their coding initiative was to breakdown social relationships and yet they were awarded and rewarded for doing this so well but then people experience that platform as connection not understanding the adverse impact of its artificiality.
So, I’m with you, Andrew. I also eschews these enactments of power that are passed off as celebrations.
I’m pretty sure I, too, began to realize this play of conventionality when as a youth I was required to attend Christian Fundamentalist religious services in our black baptist community. That is where I got my first awakening of the tyranny and hypocrisy behind the conventionality to which everyone around me bowed.
In short, I deeply appreciate what you wrote here. Thank you!
I believe you got Wagner's idea wrong, sorry to say. He wrote about opera being the Total Art Work because it ALREADY WAS. He wrote this midway in his career, after which he changed his opinion radically, moving toward Schopenhauer's idea of pure orchestral music as the highest form of artistic expression. The Total Art Work you speak of was opera from the beginning. Note that Parsifal, his last work, is the heaviest of all his works on music and that Wagner was planning to turn to writing symphonies in his later life before he died.
Thank you. It sets some topics on it's place to me. Talking about not so good christian movies, what do you think about movie "Que vadis?" (2001)
Liturgical art is the only solution to cultural problem.
Would you call it the Final solution?
Lu C lol nice
@@calo-kg2cy Yes, did you have something else in mind?
34:50 that laugh is cracked! ;)
The underlying centrality of art is Self-Expression, regardless of the corruption after the fact. The Cosmos is the Self-Expression of God. The Universe is a work of art, and the Logos is the art itself - "the principle of divine reason and creative order." Architectural design is the Self-Expression of the architect. A sculpture is the Self-Expression of the sculptor. All of these things come from the internal; from the metaphysical. You cannot create what isn't within you. God could not have created what wasn't within God. Everything comes from the inside out, and that is Self-Expression.
Beautiful
Latin students will understand Lt. Ars. Skillful = Artful. "Artisan" is a better word than "artist." Skillful and artful are reasonable synonyms. "Art of" is a good phrase. Smaller local restaurants are where we find artisans at work on a daily basis. It's "applied tacit knowledge." Tacit knowledge is like riding a bike. You can write about it, but people can only learn to ride bikes by do it, riding bikes. That's not like learning how the Battle of Hastings was in 1066. Artisans acquire and apply tacit knowledge in some productive capacity. It's all around us, but we don's share a common working vocabulary for it.
have you ever seen the work of mobius? his world of edena stuff?
It’s sad about the monastery being sold to an architect who would liturgize Harry Potter and Game of Thrones; remind me of the Catholic parish in downtown St. Louis sold to an entrepreneur to develop a skate park in the building to minister to skater kids, it only causes the kids who are into it to participate. People get into Soap Operas and fan fictions for this same reason. They don’t want to be mindlessly entertained anymore.
@Adam Funny that those atheist and Organizations will fall into that money grabbing institution eventually in this society.
Culture is formed by the participating individual characters who craft the culture into being for a purpose.
The purpose of culture ought to be focused on crafting the ultimate good into being. Am I wrong to assume this?
What is the ultimate good? Who should decide? Who should rule?
These are the question of all the ancients.
In God we trust is the answer we gave in America so that we may bring the ultimate good into being through our culture.
Americas current post modern characters cannot craft a culture for the purpose of the ultimate good because the many individual character no longer agree that there is an ultimate good or bad. The margins are gone. The individual characters fundamentally disagree on what right and wrong is.
What was the first “heavy” talk could someone leave a link thanks
at 13.45 there is an image of a festival in Romania, I think it is from Maramures!!! The one which is down - right. I am a romanian artist and I agree, postmodern art is not art is just product for some disturbed "elites".
Interesting stuff. But why is liturgy considered universal? Do we have liturgical styles in Buddhism or Islam? Or is it just this form of the western culture? To me it seems that in essence religious liturgy is more cosplay than cosplay being religious. To put value in it is the same artificial force that drive people to value art that is for the sake of art. I'm open to change my mind but only for good reasons.