Christmas as The Anchor of Reality
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- čas přidán 2. 12. 2018
- The Nativity icon, is not only the image of an event that happened two thousands years ago, but rather by its form and the hierarchy of its elements, shows us the inner working of how the Divine Logos creates the world and how His incarnation acts as the anchor, the fulcrum around which all manifestation holds together.
Talk given at St-George Antiochian Orthodox Church in Montreal.
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The music at the opening is Russian Eastern Overture, by Rimsky Korsakov.
Jonathan “this is how reality lays itself out” Pageau
this comment contains the entire reprentation of creation.
Italian Mangia! Manger As you might know, it's the imperative form of the verb mangiare, to eat, and it means “eat up!” No matter how old you are, Italians not just nonna, but the entire family will constantly implore you to eat more of everything if you're having a meal at their house, or with them at a restaurant.
As Christ is giving his body to eat Eucharist Catholic mass.
A manger or trough is , or a structure or feeder used to hold food for animals. The word comes from the Old French mangier (meaning "to eat"), from Latin mandere (meaning "to chew"). Mangers are mostly used in livestock raising and generally found at stables and farmhouses.
hahaha
@@kiss4god No it's Christmas ho ho ho.
I recently, in the last 6 years, have converted from a literal evangelical understanding of scripture, to a more universal/catholic/orthodox understanding of scripture and life. Thanks for these videos! They are great supplements to my reading and prayer.
Can the two understandings not he held in harmony?
Sorry if that question was a bit direct. I would really like to talk to you. I am in evangelical myself, but find a lot of what Jonathan says extremely interesting and want to learn more
@@felixwalne3494 I know you didn't ask me, but for what it's worth, I'd say yes. In the Catholic understanding, there are no less than five senses in which scripture can be understood. They run the gamut from literal to alegorical
This was refreshing after having to sit through a lecture at school the other day where a professor gleefully declared that Christmas wasn't actually a Christian holiday because Christmas trees are pagan or something.
@Joseph could you explain this to my leftist activist professors
@@puffball4484 Nah dont bother these subversives will just call him a bigot and have him arrested for hate crime by saying Christmas is Christian.
@@arnowisp6244 the thing is if people hate Christianity, fine. I think it's sad but all I can do is pray for that person. My gripe is the CONSTANT misinformation that these supposedly educated people spew constantly.
It’s a winter solstice feast just Like Saturnalia and the other pagan ones
@anthony cole I know the tree is pagan. And no, many cultures (including Russians and Germans) used to bring the tree inside before Christianity. This tradition predates Christianity. My point is that it's dumb to say that Christmas isn't Christian because it has pagan elements.
The Freudian slip was a treat!
Where?
When the iconoclasts and cultural hi-jackers come to the gates in the ‘Return of the King’ chapter of our reality, it will be people like this we turn to to remind us of the Beauty, Goodness and Truth. Thank you, Jonathan. God bless.
My goodness , Jonathan ! What are you doing to me? I totally rediscover this whole story, this is just insane ! How could I not see it? After 10 years I discovered Christianity it starts to unfold itself to me in a totally new light!
I was telling this to my wife this very morning. I though I was an atheist until I saw what was hiding right in front of my eyes. amazing.
@@antropatico God bless you in your journey, brother
Fantastic teaching on the symbolism of our Lord's Nativity. Thank you.
Love the depth the Orthodox tradition brings to scripture
Thank you Jonathan! Beautiful thing to hear in this first week of fasting 😊
Jonathan I just can't get enough of your work, it's got me on a binge of videos that's helping me organize my thoughts and feelings in such novel ways
35:30 Note that the Dura-Europos synagogue, which was next to the house-church Jonathan mentions, was also brimming with icons - icons which look shockingly similar to Orthodox icons - of a multitude of Old Testament scenes.
Thank you Jonathan. Been thinking about this for a week now.
As always, awesome work Jonathan. I always took for granted what I knew about the symbolism of the nativity icon, but your analysis reveals symbolism many levels beyond that.
22:56 what a quote hahaha
"The world is made of too much stuff"
Jonathan Pageau
That's a keeper. Good info in particular and in general. And with examples of your work, a good intro into Jonathan Pageau!
Insightful as always.
Ahhh the intro, what a treat.
The "ideas" that you simultaneously illustrate and articulate in your videos are interesting and thought provoking. Thank you for that. While it may be off topic, the ideas you present generally make me wonder about the relationship between our right and left brains. Something like "marrying" our right and left brains together into a functioning whole, with both modes of "thinking" being satisfied in the same space.
Philip K. Dick writes about that extensively in his Exigesis.
I really like the mind of this man
That carving shown in the first few minutes would be the dopest display to have on in a home.
Edit: That ass and ox stuff is pretty profound.
This was great!
Thank you. Really helpful.
really great stuff keep it up
26:10 what a phrase that would need 10 hours to open up
Bridging this gap between "mystical theory" and practicality within what was written throughout our world has the power to change ones mind.
Great video thanks for the pov
I learn a lot thanks to you Jonathan, thanks a lot.
Also don't hesitate to post your videos even if you give talks in French, I'm French and I would be grumpy if I missed those. Maybe make a second channel though to prevent any confusion if you do.
How awfull to have the light in your eyes, Jonathan…great lesson!
thank you Jonathan on this lecture!
btw christmas tree is also somehow representation of hierarhical reality with God (Star) on the top (and we are just the in-spired dust on it:)
Happy St. John of Damascus day! 🙏
Merry Christmas!
"How is it possible that the world exists?"!!!
Was starting to feel the usual sadness and depression that comes and goes during this time of year. This presentation made perfect sense to me and came at the good time. I got it. Sometime it just seems that there is too much "hiddenness". Sometime, I guess, there is a good reason for somethings to be hidden. That Kairos thing. Mr. Pageau knows, it seems, how Christian symbolism and iconography can be co-opted and corrupted. Unfortunately, for many of us, appreciating iconography and symbolism require some pretty heavy mentoring.
This is brilliant Jonathan. I've never heard about Joseph asking at the Nativity how something could be born from nothing. It makes so much sense.
I have another question: considering that our Christmas traditions aren't arbitrary, even in today's heavily commercialized tradition, and considering your other video arguing that Santa Claus is real, can the tradition of asking Santa Claus for gifts be regarded as an example of the intercession of the saint(s)?
Roberto Sanchez Interesting point about Santa Clause and intercession.
@@TheRealRealOK yeah, I found it interesting that the modern idea of Santa Claus developed in majority Protestant countries and despite Protestant opposition to veneration of saints, this tradition of asking Santa Claus for gifts, which (to me) looks very similar to intercession of the saints, still developed.
St Joseph, patron saint of doubting atheists, indeed. Along with St. Thomas, of course
Jonathan you're really edging on something here.
Christ-Logos-Language-Manifestation--reunifier of Man and the Unknowable-God....
Please keep going.
nice lecture
Great explanation of truth, thanks. The manger as coffer also has a body wrapped in bandages like Osiris in ancient Egypt and Horus whose mothers where also depicted as virgins wearing their vulture headresses, and in ancient egypt all vultures were considered to be female, thus virgin births, also Jesus spent his formative years in Egypt.
Amazing vid, I hope I could start carving and be one of the only ones here in southamerica, Im currently a blacksmith studying psychology at the university, I guess at some point I'll work on carving, your stuff looks beautiful.
A very interesting thought, thanks!
Chibi how about you try metal-work icons? I'm not sure if it's an actual thing, but in the UK I have seen metalworked sacred imagery in 19th Century cemeteries
@@Xanaseb I'm very thankful for you sugestion, iron and steel is much more difficult to work on if you're doing art, while wood is much more maleable. I'll see what to do :), thank you.
Hope youre doing well chibi! Merry Christmas!
17:30 How did he get out of the ark? Even his birth is amazing.
Re: The importance of being born in a cave
I’m reading through your brother’s book “Language of Creation” and one of the things that struck me was the concept of spirit giving the material meaning.
God or abstract principle descends into matter and matter is elevated.
The meaning of the cave in the nativity then seems to be the symbolic representation of the abstract spirit (word/Logos) descending into the earth (matter) and thus creating meaning.
This is mirrored by the story of the passion which is the return of matter to the earth and then from the earth again to the spirit.
This very closely maps onto the concepts of time/transformation and space - time = chaos = cyclical reversal = life (creation of space/order) > death (transformation) > life (recreation/resurrection).
Am I onto something here?
I see the incarnation as the unity of heaven and earth.
coffeewithkierkgaard.home.blog/2018/11/17/what-is-truth-part-3-the-incarnation/
this is exactly what Pageau says. so you are 'onto something.'
Thank you. This is it in a nutshell. Pageau struggled to make it clear.
Jonathan,
Can you tell me what the/a meaning of the crossing of arms of both mary and joseph in some icons of the nativity??
Please include a link to a high resolution version of the referenced painting!
Jonathan, thank you for explaining what you understand as an iconographer. I have been following your work for quite sometime, and my misconception of iconography or the orthodoxy in general was that its too idolatry and wrapped up in confusion myself. It was me who was confused, not the icon. Hahaha, so many eureka moments. It reminds me the first encounter i have had of learning the science chemistry(failed miserably), initially confusing as hell, but as you go deeper it does get clearer. It is funny how i can relate the symbolism of chemistry with the way you explain the symbolism of iconography through the scripture. God bless you. You have helped me, you and Jordan Peterson as well as John Vervaeke. The best Canadians on the face of this earth.
Question? I was wondering, is there a book that you would recommend that would explain the bible stories through iconography while having the original text attached, as means of verifying the entire exercise. If not that would be a great project, that i see only you to fulfill. Great work Friend. Regards from brooklyn, nyc.
I would love to read this book, too
@34:20 "so this is an elaborate way of showing all of these things at the same time." Was the layering of meaning intentional? Or do you think that the stories inherently carry the layered meaning in themselves?
Hey jonathan, I'm new to your channel, don't know if you already talked about it, but do you se the bible as a piece of art? Could you elaborate on that?
Thanks a lot for you work
Love your work and your pacing -- your style is more accessible than the work by JP and Eric Weinstein. I don't quite understand why you won't have more followers
6:00 "at the top we have the three angels"
Death, Life, & Light?
💜
I hear you speak of the descent into death. What is death? What does death itself symbolize? I have my own meaning which in its very simplistic form is transformation. What are we transforming into?
21:40 that line is in roo panes' "Land of the Living"
Will you please write and/or recommend a book on Biblical symbolism/metaphor. Please.
Pageau, Matthieu - The Language of Creation: Cosmic Symbolism in Genesis
Lewis, CS - The Discarded Image
Tolkien, JRR - Fairy Stories
Eliade, Mircea - Images and Symbols
Heidegger, Martin - Basic Writings
(Heidegger is obviously problematic for his political associations, but he nonetheless presents the phenomenological point of view necessary for a recovery of symbolism. His “Origin of the Work of Art” and “Questions concerning Technology” are very important.)
Guenon, Rene - Symbols of Sacred Science
Guenon, Rene - The Reign of Quantity and The Signs of the Times
(Guénon is a problematic writer on many fronts and I hesitated to put him here. He became a Muslim, was a Freemason and retained several ties with occult thinkers, but nonetheless his insight on symbolism and his understanding of the crisis of civilization we are facing is unmatched in the 20th century, so read with caution.)
thesymbolicworld.com/reading-list/
Through New Eyes - James Jordan
The Antichrist for Dummies (on youtube)
This talk was not about symbolism. It was about the mystery, which is almost impossible to explain.
What is the music you are using for your "The Symbolic World" intro, Mr Pageau? Thank you!
Russian Eastern Overture by Rimsky Korsakov
As above, so below. All things in the Spiritual manifest in to the physical
I am a photographer, would it be wrong to make take pictures of certain icons. Say the axe and tree, or build a model of a sea serpant and some one stepping on it cropped in close. IMO if the meaning is there does the medium count? Just a thought. Would like to know others opinions
@Bethany Ramos yea, but why. Like, another medium is just another point for the pattern to show right? How can we have Christian imagery across time and space if it is only restricted to one and only one style
@Bethany Ramos hmmmmm. Thank you I'll have to ponder on this for a while. Personally I can't see why it must always be stain glass, craving or painting. if God works though various people such as an athlete or architect or philanthropist, I don't see why this couldnt be for art as well. But in any case I will ponder. Thank you again, God bless
Jonathan, would you still call the shepherds “the guys next door?” In my (limited) experience (in Romania), shepherds are pretty marginal.
Hm, that Christ/Logos is what makes something whole or preserved reminds me of Vishnu in Hinduism, as Vishnu is "the preserver."
Just from that description i'm expecting word soup and jungian trickery, but I like Johnathon so I'll give this a shot!
It’s the time of year to break out this video again
22:54 the world is relatively modular. For instance, I could plug the same microphone into many different cable plugs and hopefully it would work in each context. This modularity of a given concept allows us to make sense of whole objects
Sure, but where does the concept of cable plug come from?
@@L4sz10 the cable itself arises from the an infinite well of internal complexity, but the concept of cable must be defined from above, by an observer who categorizes, and/or else by something outside that relates laterally with the subject. The joining of the definitions from above, besides, and the accumulation of the lower objects are what define something. However, it is only the modularity and the autonomy of the subject that even gives the subject an opportunity to be recognized. For example, an apple charger is just as much of a legitimate kind of cable as a micro USB, but the apple charger retains the Apple identity because it has no use outside of the context of Apple product use. Micro USBs are used by the general conglomeration of Android phones as well as by other computer products and appliances. Micro USBs can be called Android chargers, but they have a greater identity than just that.
@@ekbergiw I am not sure I understand that, but I think both you and Jonathan is right here. I think the modularity you mentioned still leaves the question open that even though the cable is conceptualized by its relevancy toward other items, that relevancy is still a very small fraction of all the descriptors and attributes that item retains. There are an infinite number of ways that we can relate things to each other, and I am not sure that we can determine a specific axiom that we can use as point of reference for all things we perceive. But I might be wrong.
Sorry if it is hardly understandable, English is not my first language, and this is not an easy topic.
What text do you recommend about the church fathers and their vision of symbols?
@@h.p6016 Thanks man!
H.P Dyonisius the Aeropagate...pseudo-Dyonisius is what non-Orthodox call him.
I always find it odd when the cult of confidence followers show up here. God forbid we try to understand ancient symbolism.
Was that a distributist reference? You have to be really careful about what you say around them, they get triggered just as easily as the SJWs. :)
@jay furries
14:00 Dawn Key & Fox
8:00 "What's the word in english?"
# 1 4 hiver?
The end is in the beginning
5:40 this is my “the ass and the ox” symbolism guess: the ass is the beast of burden representing slavery and peaceful kingship; the ox representing the theological height of sacrifice for sin. Was there any sacrificial beast bigger than a bull of bashan (Psalm 51)? Just my guess at this 5:40 minute marker…
À Montréal, en anglais? Tu me la sers sur un plateau, pour mon PKP intérieur
En français, SVP!
Jk, I like what you do no matter the language!
DOUBLE JK. Est-ce que ça t'arrives de faire des conférences du genre en français, à Montréal?
Ce soir, Lundi le 3 décembre au Lobby Bar à Montreal, 7:30pm. je vais faire un débat sur le symbolisme et en même temps nous parlerons du symbolisme de Noël.
Icons 101: "Icons are not snapshots."
Me: Dang... Makes sense now that you say it.
Baptism is a mini Exorcism.
Indeed, and so is the liturgy, or praying, or crossing yourself
Aren't you revealing secrets? Is that legal :D Oh, and why a manger?
The anchor of Reality is THOUGHT FREE AWARENESS
Seek stillness of mind. Quiet the interior monolog. It is your true Self.
You lost me at the microphone metaphor. I think electromagnetics is far deeper than all of this, albeit harder to conceptualize in our four dimensions.
The fact that it is a microphone is NOT fully explained or concluded from an examination of its parts or elements. It is actually only in relation to its "user", its "god"; with a voice to transmit that it is REALLY a microphone of any consequence
So the canonical images you included are not all canonical? Ah, they are traditions. Icons of man-made traditions.
That was never taken as negating other manners of the handing on of God's revelation till the reformers invented "Sola Scriptura," in fact the primary meaning in Christ's great commission of preaching the Gospel, "go therefore and preach the Gospel to all the nations") and handing on doctrine ("teaching them to obey all I have commanded you") is the oral preaching and teaching of authorities in Christ's Church beginning with the Apostles. As St. Paul says, "faith comes by hearing." The Apostles and their associates just happened in the fulfillment of that task to write down some of that preaching and teaching and that became the New Testament, they never meant it to be the only means that Christ's Gospel and faith came to nonbelievers or that the faithful would be instructed in Christian doctrine. Imagine if you could go back and tell Polycarp of Smyrna, Papias, Ignatius of Antioch, or Clement of Rome, all of whom were alive while the Apostles were still around and most or all of whom would have known them heard them preach and listened to and learned from them as they taught to only go by what they wrote down, not by what they heard from their lips, saw in their manner of living, their celebration of Christ's Eucharist etc. I don't think they'd take you particularly seriously.
12:00 Hehehe. Your icon sucks. Hehehe.
Your videos are generally too woo-woo and indulgent for my taste, JP. Real orthodox teaching would be more rigorously Patristic, and never far from the remembrance of our sinfulness. I don't need the sugar topping. Other religions can be a stepping stone, but Ecumenism is heresy my friend. And iconography is not based on imagination whereas fine arts is, which we are taught is part of our fall.
Without being overly judgmental, I think it best to unsubscribe.
He is expanding the teaching of Christianity, whereas you would prefer he only preach water to fish. Pride by exclusion is not Christian.
This is a bit strange to me. In my talk, I reference how the icon exemplifies St-Maximos and the theory of the Logoï, I quote St-Athanasius directly, I reference the acts of the 7th ecumenical council, I reference St-Gregory of Nyssa, I also refer to liturgical prayers and hymns. When I speak of the solstice for example, this was expounded by such fathers as St-Augustine: "Hence it is that He was born on the day which is the shortest in our earthly reckoning and from which subsequent days begin to increase in length. He, therefore, who bent low and lifted us up chose the shortest day, yet the one whence light begins to increase." So I don't know how more patristic I could be in such a popular format.
@@JonathanPageau not talking about this presentation which is quite good and I've watched in entirety. More a general appraisal.
@@thingsweneverdid3782 I think you need to distinguish the two purposes of my videos. One is to show the meaning of our Christian, especially Orthodox traditions, those would be more like this one, in line with what you would want, and the other purpose is to show how this understanding can be used to look at the world around us and the culture we live in. Those other videos have a more loose flavor and might even sometimes not mention Christianity specifically at all. I will always continue to do both, and I think that is why there are quite a number of atheists who are suddenly reconsidering God, Christ and rediscovering a traditional worldview because they can see that it is not arbitrary, but rather shows them the very manner in which the world exists.
@@JonathanPageau I trust you know what you're doing. I personally find the whole dialogue very tiring, but that is my fleshly problem in this life. Just please I implore you, avoid the branch theory, ecumenism, baptismal theology, and the whole self congratulating academic haughty "orthodoxy" of guys like David Bentley Hart who inwardly are already apostate.
“This is reality”😭 nice try pseudo-preacher
Christmas is not Biblical and is almost entirely pagan.
Christmas was originally a holiday when Christians and pagans of the Roman Empire could come together in fellowship. Sounds pretty Christian to me.
Here we go. "Lemme tell u why Easter and Christmas have nothing to do with Christianity (which I know nothing about) because aspects of other cultures have been actively integrated into the tradition (which is a very historically Christian thing to do but again I know nothing about Christianity). Happy holidays!"
Puff Ball 🤣😂 Seriously.
Palmetto Paratrooper Demonstrably false, but don’t research Church history and learn. It might result in changing your mind.
@jay please see my previous comment about integrating other cultures. The orthodox particularly were notorious for doing this which is why you can't just go to an orthodox church, you go to a Greek church or Russian or French and so on. MANY cultures had traditions with trees around the winter solstice including Germans, Russians and Nordics. The Santa Claus thing comes out from a Turkish saint and was later commcerialized in the US by coca cola. The ancient church fused the cultures which surrounded it in with its own which Jonathan literally talks about in the q&a if you had actually watched the video.