The Virtuous Wehrmacht - Crafting the Myth of the German Soldier on the Eastern Front, 1941-1944
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- čas přidán 2. 06. 2024
- The Virtuous Wehrmacht - Crafting the Myth of the German Soldier on the Eastern Front, 1941-1944
With David A. Harrisville
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The Virtuous Wehrmacht, examines how German soldiers on the Eastern Front during WWII rationalized their participation in what historians have described as a “war of extermination.”
David A. Harrisville is an independent scholar. He has held various academic positions, including, most recently, Visiting Assistant Professor of History at Furman University. www.davidharrisville.com/
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@Syd McCreath If your takeaways from this are about pronunciation, then I'm not sure what to say. The importance of this show was to get across the widespread policies of murder that were widespread across all branches of the Third Reich. As for the Wehrmacht, yes of course we should use the word Heer, and although Wehrmacht is technically incorrect everyone uses the terms Kriegsmarine, Luftwaffe and Wehrmacht and we all know what is meant by that.
With regards Eva, I have a German friend with that name and even within her German family, they pronounce it differently. If I have learned just one thing hosting this channel is that is rarely a definitive version of pronouncing a word or name in any language
How it's possible that you don't have a gajillion subs and a megamillion likes is beyond me. Your channel has the best historians, writers and history nerds in the world. And you cover topics that haven't been beaten to death over and over again. My respect for your organization grows with every video I click!
Not sure if you’ll seen this comment, but I recently found your channel and wanted to show my support. I have never experienced a channel with this format, or a host with your skill. You give amateur historians an excellent example to look to, and expert historians an engaging platform to really expand on their passions and work. I am thrilled with your content and I hope you can understand just how much of a gift this is to those seriously interested in WW2
Thank you very much for the nice words. You made my day
I’ve only just discovered this channel to, I agree with your comment, it’s amazing and really interesting !
Please support this channel. Paul works tirelessly to preserve the history of ww2 in a manner that is engaging and interesting: He is earning the gift of freedom which the young soldiers of ww2 gave to all of us through their sacrifices and bravery. Well done, Paul.
I am repeatedly impressed by the quality as well as big named authors (at least in the WW2 domain) this channel gets. It deserves far more subs than it has right now
We are getting more views at the moment, but I agree with you. The calibre of guests deserves greater numbers
This was another superb podcast! I learned a lot about the German soldiers. I’m excited to read Mr. Harrisville’s book! Thanks for all of your hard work. I’m learning from every podcast.
fascinating and very important show that provides a deep dive into the German army during ww2 and how much the "boots on the ground" soldiers were manipulated by the Nazi war machine. This is an important, yet disturbing, lesson. Thank you WW2Tv for never failing to bring extraordinary content which educates us on human nature. If we forget then we will repeat the horrors of the past.
Excellent presentation. Ties in with a lot of what I'd gathered over the years from a variety of sources, primary, secondary and anecdotal.
Now the library is back open I must go and order the book, along with many others that your channel has highlighted!
Incidentally, I have shared this one on to my FB page as I know that a lot of my friends will find this programme particularly interesting.
This was terrific. I would like to see a program exploring the disparity between the treatment of British, Australian and American POW’s in the hands of Germany as opposed to Japan. I understand the Soviet POW’s suffered horribly under the Germans and vice versa.
Just spent the of the last couple of days rewatching this brilliant episode from David, and am glad I did as it covers some brilliant content in the detail only these long format shows from @WW2TV can do.
Superbly done! Exploding the myth that the Wehrmacht had nothing to do with/was horrified by, war crimes on the Eastern front is important for future generations of students of the war.
Anybody who still repeats the Clean Wehrmacht Myth is either a fool or a liar. The mountain of evidence that has accumulated over the years, especially since the collapse of communism, is overwhelming. The Wehrmacht, the SS, the Order Police Battalions and local auxiliaries were all part of the same genocidal enterprise.
Just found your channel. Already know you’re going on the top shelf in terms of what I watch. Bravo sir
Awesome, thank you Connor! We have been bubbling along for 18 months as something of a cult hit, but we are finally getting noticed by more people
The works of Sönke Neitzel and Wolfram Wette are a must read for a fan of this topic.
Appreciate the great content. Very insightful and informative, thanks.
Thanks Paul for another great show! Virtuous Wehrmacht cracks me up!
I've been reading a lot of Diaries (excerpts) from German soldiers mainly in the Eastern Front and after watching this great presentation I can now see some of the underlying and open remarks in many of them as if it was normal to run over soldiers, civilians and even animals (from the tank drivers and tank commanders) while feeling a detached remorse but convincing themselves it was for a good reason. Fantastic presentation as I try to catch up Paul adding another book to my list.
It is the nature of the soldier and the evilness of war in general , it happens in all armies in all times . When i was a soldier in the war on terror it happens . Its not right , its war and it sucks and what fucks up guys in the head amongst other thing post tour. Us claiming the moral high ground over the Germans is a joke . Western front had a lot more control than the Eastern front and the Germans fought a lot more honorably than a lot of our units. The americans were similar in the different ways they fought the japs n the germans
Catching up on this. Most excellent stuff, as always.
German soldiers came from the same social backgrounds than any soldier from any other country. They were fathers, brothers, sons, workers, students, academics, farmers, some were better educated, some were not.
I'm afraid and certain at the same time that under the "right" circumstances, everybody can become an "animal". This is not a thing from the past.
Glad the algorithm showed me this channel! As a WW2 buff this channel and its content are exactly what interests me!
Welcome aboard, I hope you stick around. I'm a short break from livestreams at the moment but it all starts again on 20th
Great, great video, cant believe I have only just discovered this chanel , and an amazing guest.
Thanks and welcome aboard Udey
What a great talk, on a topic (the psychology of perpetrators of Nazi crimes on WW2) that has fascinated me since I first learned about them. I wish I could have been part of the conversation. One thing that interests me is if there is a throughline of massive and attrocious retaliation to irregular warfare in the German military, going back the Belgium in WW1 or even the Herrero genocide (not that this was entirely unique, see any number of colonial wars, or was the same as the Holocaust).
Thanks for the recent comments William
Hi William. The recurring theme of the German military having a habit of responding to insurgencies or asymmetric warfare with massive violence (including reprisals against local civvies) has actually been examined by scholars. Some theorise that it had its roots in the Franco-Prussian War in dealing with so-called francs-tireurs among the French population.
This experience in a war that finalised German unification left a mark on the military, which is thought have sowed the seeds of an institutional paranoia towards any real or imagined unconventional military threat amongst a hostile population. Experience in colonial conflicts (which carried the added baggage of contemporary racial thinking) matured this further, creating a military institution that was potentially more prone to brutal reactions to such real or imagined threats. Military necessity trumped any legal or ethical constraints.
A book that covers this topic was mentioned by Waitman Beorn in another WW2TV episode, a book by Isabel Hull called 'Absolute Destruction'.
www.amazon.co.uk/Absolute-Destruction-Military-Practices-Imperial/dp/0801472938/?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_w=LB90q&content-id=amzn1.sym.4720748e-6707-426d-bc04-5e035a36208f&pf_rd_p=4720748e-6707-426d-bc04-5e035a36208f&pf_rd_r=81W4NT4PQ66QXEC5THXZ&pd_rd_wg=xFJcu&pd_rd_r=1b06eff9-bde9-4958-a233-4058a26c5be3&ref_=aufs_ap_sc_mbl
@@johndoe6298 its hardly a German thing i would call it "colonial modus operandi," just done in Europe, and not in some 3rd world shithole nobody cares or talks about .
Look how the French behaved just right after ww2 in Algeria or Vietnam, or how US forces treated Koreans and Vietnamese when faced with insurgents and partisans, oftentimes they would kill them not in retaliation, but as a security measure (No Gun Ri bridge massacre in Korea)...they massacred entire villages either by troops on the ground or with air strikes and napalm...and that was on purpose, civilians were the targets.
They would "muddy the water" like for example declaring entire zones of land "free fire zones" so anyone encountered there was counted as a Vietcong.
And before someone says "muh we talk abut ww2 stick to it" no we cant because the subject is armies reacting to insurgencies.
Western allies never faced organized insurgents and partisan activities as the Axis did during ww2 (and even then they executed and burned villages in Germany 45 and shot civilians and soldiers, often times out of pure paranoia and rumors and it wasnt isolated.
But wont see a book about it for at least next 40 years , for obvious reasons.
They did encounter it in post war conflicts.
Love your show! Great host and great guests! Keep it going!
Thank you
Excellent presentation. I'll be sure to add Mr. Harrisville's book to my wishlist. This is an important part of the Historiography for the Eastern Front. You have earned yourself a new Subscriber to WW2TV.
Great episode! But wow, this is the first time I have ever hidden your chat replay.
Interesting video 👌
A friend of my Aunts was an Austrian who served in Yugoslavia as an officer in the Wehrmacht and Italy. After the War he studied at a Catholic seminary. He was a much loved and respected member of the commnity. Having read about WW2 as a teenager I wondered if he was trying to atone for what he might have done in the War.
This myth has been a thorn in my shoe since I first started studying history in the USA. Much like the "Honorable Johnny Reb" narrative, these myths take deep root in the fertile soil of American racism and bigotry - just below the surface. Lately, good historians (like y'all) have been refuting these memes, for which I am deeply grateful.
Fascinating and informative presentation. The psychology on display of these soldiers is a constant throughout history, depressingly very much so today, in various places.
Excellent detailed analysis of the Wehrmacht. Puts the notion of the Wehrmacht were the 'good guys' and the SS were the 'bad guys' to bed. Very interesting program even though the content was a bit disturbing. Thanks Paul!!!!
Really enjoyed this talk on such an important topic. For anyone interested in how the myth became popularised I throughly recommend Smesler and Davies "the Myth of the Eastern Front". This looks at the post-war context, the role of Western governments and Nazi generals, and finishes with the "historical writers" lionising the average Landser. Worth a read.
This video made me think of my late English grandfather who was in the Chesire regiment. He was a kind grandfather and he casually recounted shooting a Nazi official by making him put a uniform on he found in his farmhouse. When it fitted him perfectly he told his sgt to take him outside and shoot him which he did. He also said they didnt take SS prisoners after something that happened to some lads in his battalion in France before Dunkirk, some of their colleagues were killed by the 1st SS . I asked him why, he said you dont understand and I hope you never will.
I'm doing some catching up of missed episodes. Thank you for another very interesting presentation with a good guest speaker. It certainly was a topic that requires more exploration.
"You don't have to be a shitty person to be a Nazi," that was funny and apt at the same time.
Excellent gentlemen.
Thanks for listening
Did the author consultant the records of the British intelligence of their hidden microphones.
Hi Steve! Good question. I didn't use those records directly, but I consulted the works of Felix Römer, Sönke Neitzel, and Harald Welzer, all of whom worked on the hidden microphone project. I'd say their findings accord pretty well with my own.
I think we (normal people) underestimate the level of hatred in Germans of what they saw as subhumans (Jews, Slavs, Communists).
Hitler (wrongly) gave them someone to blame for the major economical problems Germany had prior to Hitler coming to power.
How it got passed on is amazing (that’s the wrong word to use to what happened but…)
Great explanation of the mind set of the Wehrmacht’s mindset during WW2 .Great, well presented .
Thanks
Wow… such a paradoxical episode. Now im not sure which way is up.
My GD was pressganged into the luftwaffe. He was Virtuous and died in POW in 1956.
Would love to have heard David’s view on David Irving the Nazi sympathiser who wrote books trying to minimise and excuse Nazi atrocities.
Interesting
But I would like to have hard more about the German soldiers when they joined the army, what were they fighting for?
What were their thoughts?
I'm old enough to remember the 1960's WW2 comedy series Hogan's Heroes, and one of the running jokes was that Sgt. Schultz and Commendant Klink were always being threatened with being sent to the Eastern Front by other Nazis for one reason or another.
Yes my favorite line was when Klink defended himself by saying he would never pass the physical, and his direct superior said to him "Are you breathing"
About 10-15 years ago I remember watching a German documentary covering an exhibit (I cannot remember where in Germany) that was explicitly an exposition of the violence committed by the Wermacht. Needless to say, there were many protesters who denied any idea that the Wermacht could have committed immoral acts. It was fascininating to see through letters and archives the eventual nazification of normal soldiers. this exhibit was eye-opening as well as the violent opposition that it produced in modern Germany. I wish my memory was not failing me! If anyone knows of his German documentary, please speak up!!
Hitler's Soldiers by Ben H. Shepherd is also a really good book about the Wehrmacht. That too ruins the myth of the 'good' Wehrmacht. Fascinating subject.
When I was young, my uncle told me about the Japanese soldiers throwing babies up in their air and catching them on their bayonets.
Knights of the Bushido comes to mind.
I wonder how many of them did this?
I love this presentation and lecture but my thought is always what choice did the German soldiers have, if they didn’t swear in as nazis they would have died so I think there were probably millions of them who did have great moral fiber but knew they couldn’t be outspoken about it. Hints why alcoholism and drug use was so high among these soldiers as well as the constant thought of suicide
Late to the Party as usual. Could a comparison be made between the behaviour of German armies in WW2 on the eastern front be compared to that of WW1 ? The religious outlook of the majority of the population hadn't changed much - the big difference was the Nazi ideology (both in terms of way German armies saw themselves and who their opponents were.) Or perhaps compare the Germans in WW2 with their Italian, Hungarian and Romanian allies on the eastern front ? Wikipedia has this quote about the Hungarians : "Their participation was noted by German observers for its particular cruelty, with occupied peoples subjected to arbitrary violence. Hungarian volunteers were sometimes referred to as engaging in "murder tourism." source : Ungváry, Krisztián (23 March 2007). "Hungarian Occupation Forces in the Ukraine 1941-1942: The Historiographical Context". The Journal of Slavic Military Studies. 20 (1): 81-120 And this "Romanian troops were responsible for the persecution and massacre of up to 260,000 Jews in Romanian-controlled territories, " source : Third Axis Fourth Ally: Romanian Armed Forces in the European War, 1941-1945, by Mark Axworthy, Cornel Scafeş and Cristian Crăciunoiu, page 9.
The Germans were particularly brutal in Belgium and France in WW1.
Great presentation of interesting research. I look forward to reading the book! Wasn't one of the reasons that the Allies chose to accept the Wermacht's innocence simply because they didn't want to think that they could ever have been guilty of the same? The theme of why it happened and whether 'normal' people could do the same things was an ongoing debate in the post-war era e.g the Stanford Prison Experiment.
In Modern Germany the Experts explain it as the only reason was, the Americans were in Cold war with the Soviets and the Americans wanted the former german soldiers in West Germany for a potential war against the soviets. It would had sucked if the Americans would still have said You german soldiers are muders and bloodseeking bastards and should all be hanged, but we need you if we are in a upcomming war with the east. It was similar by the way in East Germany with the Soviets. Another Reason was, many german documents about german war crimes were stored in soviet archives. And it was just after 1991 the western historiancs could get insight of these to get a fule scale of the nazi german war cimes.
"Wasn't one of the reasons that the Allies chose to accept the Wermacht's innocence simply because they didn't want to think that they could ever have been guilty of the same?"
It was first and foremost politics, i dont know whats so shocking to it maybe to ppl that know ww2 from history channel , lets rewind to ww2 Allies...
The West fully supported , whitewashed, cowered up (Katyn) and maybe even turned a blind eye to potential assasination of Polish general Sikorsky (Poland) who was a thorn to the side of better cooperation with Stalin...then they gave Stalin half of Europe, allowed phony Soviet judges at Nurnberg and gave Soviets free hands when it came to ethnic cleansings or as they called it "peaceful Resettlement" after WW2.
And we gush now in shock how they used a fraction of that whitewashing on the Germans as they became the new Allies...the goal is to stay "clean in the publics eye"
Anything else was secondary at best, but there were obvious cases of "we could be found guilty of it as well so best not meddle into it too deep"
For Example the well known case of 12th SS commander Kurt Meyer who became something of a comic book villain for Canadians and Western Allies with many even today outraged how he was spared the death sentence.
What is generally NOT talked about is that the reason WHY it was just a prison sentence...for a good reason.
And the reason was Canadian Major-General Christopher Vokes, the official convening authority for the court.
Vokes' main concern was the degree to which a commander should be held responsible for the actions of his men.
The consensus which emerged from the discussions was that death was an appropriate sentence only when "the offence was conclusively shown to have resulted from the direct act of the commander or by his omission to act".
Vokes then said quite frankly that "There isn't a general or colonel on the Allied side that I know of who hasn't said, 'Well, this time we don't want any prisoners'".
After all Vokes had himself ordered the revenge razing of Friesoythe in 1945 for the death of a Canadian officer from alleged sniper/partisan attack by German civilians (as usual it came out it was uniformed soldiers), and had ordered the shooting of two prisoners in 1943...and thats the well known documented part...
To the victor the spoils , to the defeated only waste, unless they are useful ofc, so you give em "an overhaul".
2nd time thru, and this profound, professional presentation was even more compelling this time around, since I had recently read that some 16 million Russian civilians died in WWII and that the Whermacht destroyed some 70,000 villages.
Good beginning.. Gonna' be good.. this..
Interesting topic, though in spite of wanting to cover something from a new perspective and add something, this more or less is a rehash of what already existed and some of it misses the mark. I got my MA in military history in the 90's, but was also a Soldier, also deployed to Afghanistan, and I interviewed many former German Soldiers while they were plentiful.
Where you start in something like this endeavor is 1920's German society, and who were the parents at that time, not the children that would later fight in the war. Those parents grew up in a country that was a rising power, was very religious, was proud of its heritage, etc. Those parents raised their children in as much the same way as they were, in as much as they could under the circumstances. This guy stating that he was surprised that the Wehrmacht had a Chaplain service, etc. is a red flag to me that was ill prepared to try and tackle the questions he set out to answer.
Fact is, the human material of Germany from a moral standpoint was no better or worse than that found in the US, UK, France, Canada, etc. It was the circumstances they were put in that led to their actions. If you're an American and think that US Soldiers in WWII were the greatest generation, read this book that describes how they act when it all goes wrong: Horyo: Memoirs of an American POW, MAJ Richard Gordon
This conversation (to varying degrees) is true of every army in (at least modern) history.
It shows the effect of the indoctrination and institutionalisation soldiers undergo.
Another great and fascinating programme, well done.
One topic that thought provoked myself was Hitler's religious belief. Personally, I think he merely used religion to fuel his hated of the Jew's and other 'sub human' cultures. I believe he wasn't infatuated with the concept of Christianity due to Germanys' mixed Protestant and Catholic population. There was no political advantage to use a propaganda film or other means whilst attending a church of either faith in fear of alienating the other. He was desperate to be accepted as a 'German' and merely courted the peoples religious beliefs to achieve his idealistic and perverse goals.
Heinrich Himmler wanted to get rid of traditional Christianity in Germany and replace it with a neo-pagan type of religion.
Heinrich Himmler wanted to get rid of traditional Christianity in Germany and replace it with a neo-pagan type of religion.
Heinrich Himmler wanted to get rid of traditional Christianity in Germany and replace it with a neo-pagan type of religion.
Heinrich Himmler wanted to get rid of traditional Christianity in Germany and replace it with a neo-pagan type of religion.
Heinrich Himmler wanted to get rid of traditional Christianity in Germany and replace it with a neo-pagan type of religion.
Hitler was not a Christian but had a pagan (or pagan like) view/religion. Sources I have read over the past few decades have mentioned opinion by Hitler (and he had many) that the Christian religions weakened the German "race" and his adoption of pagan rituals and symbols (torch lite marches, the Swastika, etc) were taken from pre-Christian Germany. World War 2 magazine had article about Hitler's postwar plans to rebuild German cities which did not include sites for Christian churches. Hitler was into "blood and soil" (and the Nazi state) not turning the other cheek.
It's not that clear cut I don't think. There is a lot of evidence Hitler was Christian and also that he wasn't. Very complicated
Really good subject. We don't get this side. And it's probably just as varied as any side.
I grew up with pre-early-mid-laye and post war American Soldiers as a kid and also African American/Black G.I.'s from those periods. The story is truly all over the place of these men but the bottom line seems now is that regardless of when,where,how and who the MN I listened to intently as a pre/teen there was a survivor/stand up for the team that was always there.
Cheers
It would be interesting to see a video dedicated to the NKVD who were just as notorious. Some Red Army veterans tried to switch the blame of all Soviet atrocities on the secret police to portray the Army in a positive light.
it's impossible to listen to this presentation and not be continuously reminded of American soldiers/society, not just the actions and the ideas but the entire mindset is perfectly mirrored, which is sensible considering the purpose of the american empire, and the US Army's conscious decision to allow the Wehrmacht leadership to write it's lessons of the war at the same time as the US intelligence agencies were busy rehiring the gestapo and SS and allowing them to shape both public and official histories and views of the Soviet Union in order to further the Cold War
And a war criminal put men on the moon .
I think it would be better if you would just let the speakers do their presentation. There's really no need to repeat what he just said or state the obvious.
I do this based on what comments are coming up from viewers and to connect with other shows we have done
Be intersting to look into fragging
Like someone said, nothing happens in a vacuum .
Sorry… I saw the exhibit on d/w Documentary!
Father Pirro Scavizzi, a Roman Catholic chaplain with an Knights of Malta hospital train on the Eastern Front in the winter of 1941/42 told the Vatican that the Germans made no provision for the treatment of Soviet wounded. Is this true?
I believe so
Are you familiar with the book, "The Myth of the Eastern Front"? pub. 2008.
I am yes
I hope all these archives are now digitzed, and backed up
Out of millions of German soldiers there must be millions of letters
Thing is as was mentioned here, there was no ''terroristic rule'' at least in what is now Baltics, if we of course do not look at extermination of Jews and Roma that happened everywhere. But for an ethnic Latvian for example, yes you had high taxes and people were not happy with Nazi rule as such but unless you were a Bolshevik or actively worked against the regime, they did not really harass ethnic Latvians at the time, while with Soviets who came in 1940 you got just random upper middle class people disappearing to torture chambers and then being shot just because they were in patriotic Latvian organizations or in other ways not deemed fit for ''sovietization'', due to being rich or relatively well off or being too nationalistic etc. Same thing repeats now in Ukraine, people are tortured and killed just because they are Ukrainian ''nationalists'', you do not need to even commit any act vs the new regime, just they have lists who have been active members of this and that Ukrainian organization... Now admittedly the working class had it also bad under Nazis as the working hours were long and they could have been sent to work in Germany etc. But the history is often written and the perception of history we usually get from at least upper middle class people, professors etc. and yes, extermination of Jews and other crimes were extremely terrible, but if you look at it all from perspective of upper or middle class Latvian who just wants his own family to survive, under Nazis nobody confiscated your property or beat you up in some cellar, you could even sing patriotic songs and wave the national flag if it was not directed vs Nazis and just general local patriotism, it was permitted. No wonder many people left with Nazis to the West and later contributed to the ''good German'' and this ''clean Wehrmacht'' myth. Even now in Latvia you hear how Wehrmacht soldiers gave kids chocolate and Soviets were stealing stuff and raping women... while at the end Germans were stealing too though.
Worth noting that there were atrocities committed in the invasion of Poland and in that of the France and the Low Countries before the 'eastern front' got going.
Joke is most Barbarossa logistics supplied under the non aggression pact.
Good point
I'm watching this video in March 2023 after almost 13 months of the Russian invasion of Ukraine and can't help reflecting on 3 things: 1. what the Germans said about the Russians as presented here, 2. what the Russians did when they invaded Poland, Prussia and East Germany in 1944 and 3. what the Russians have done and are doing in Ukraine. In 1944 it seems to be semi-excused as "retribution" and now in Ukraine? War is always very ugly.
Odd that the presentation are talking about the wermacht beliefs like lab rats when many of the same themes about Russia still persist in the west. Not much of this is shocking nor unpredictable. Time moves on but human behavior and propaganda hasn’t really changed.
There is so much romanticising of the German armies during world war 2 in many youtube channels. Thank you for standing against that with historical information and knowledge.
Yep, thanks for that. I try and fight the Wehraboos. David is back on again on Wednesday
Yes, it was a myth that was created post war to help create the notion that it was only the SS, that the ordinary franz was just doing his duty. It is true that more than a few of the brass were disgusted by the atrocities, like Hadler. But wehrmact troops did kill jews and civilians or tape women.
On the western front in the occupied countries wehrmact committed atrocities as well against civilians. The one thing they didnt do was kill pows, bc they were afraid of retaliation. In fact they hated the SS bc of that fear.
One of the ironies after the war were the horror stories told by germans of what the russians did to them. What the russisns did was horrible, but what did they think hans snd franz did in Russia?
It was like the similar myth that most germans despised hitler but were too afraid, that isnt true. If they despised hitler it likely was bc he lost the war.
They do witness and are ordered to carry out atrocities in Stalingrad. They shoot the kid befriend.
It is interesting how many similarities there is to the intercepted phonecalls from Russian soldiers in Ukraine.
I think the Ukrainians did feel they were being liberated, especially after the Stalinist atrocities in the 1930s.
Many of these young soldiers were brought up in Nazi schools and the 'Hitler youth' while Hitler's minions did their best to get rid of the churches and the clerics, both catholic and protestant. Hitler initially professed to be a christian and he did go to a catholic school but I, personally think that he had rationalized himself out of any religious ideas except those he invented so that "he" could replace the concept of Christ and possibly even the concept of god him/herself.
Throughout history: when human rationalize a thought and believe in it thoroughly their actions reflect the belief. As time moves on we look back and castigate such behavior.
Look at slavery, the wermacht and God only knows what we believe today that will be scoffed at in the future. There is much about past human history that is abhorrent currently but not at the time.
Despite the giddiness as if this is finding some unique behavior it is not earth shattering. I’d even go so far as to say expected. In the context of the war, voyeuristically it’s interesting but not shocking.
all goes to dostoyewski and nietsche
Anything the Germans did after 1941, was a waste of time. They don't have the reserve units to back up their drive.
everytime the nazis go on about aryans the russians wold laugh like crazy.
they meant Daria also know as Hyperborea...ancient greek name for Russia
The whole death and victimhood thing about the Wehrmacht is similar to what we see today with US army and Vietnam.
Despite all the horrible things done to the civilian population there is a shocking lack of honest self reflection and empathy, the focus is always on the suffering of the Soldiers and not the civilians... who were often times neck deep in war crimes...
Peer pressure. Normalisation. If everyone else is behaving like a genocidal maniac it must be ojk
regarding sexual assaults fraternising with 'lesser races' could land a german in serious trouble 'officially' though sexual violence and extortion seems to have been pandemic.
I don’t see the point of demonizing Wehrmacht soldiers as this is just natural behavior. By putting them down who are you boosting up? Who is better? And who writes home and says “I am the bad guy”? Did any soldiers from any war ever do that? People try to find glory in war and honor because it is too painful to face for what it truly is which is an inhumane human interaction brought about by human failure. It’s especially hard for young idealistic men who were sold the goods that they were saving western civilization and they find themselves in a bloodbath and their fellow soldiers dying. The times they lived in were supercharged politically. Russia was the bad guy to all western civilization and Britain and the US banged that drum loudly. But anyway,I never thought the Wehrmacht were virtuous. They killed people. What’s virtuous about that? War is inhumane and brutal. End of story.
An odd view IMHO but thanks for the comment
@@WW2TV It seems pretty logical not odd. WWII is interesting but I question the framing of broad swaths of people as evil or good. It's human nature to try so we can find something good about war but there is nothing good about war. I question the demonization of Wehrmacht soldiers because you are selecting a precise target and making broad sweeping statements about all of them. I also see you focused on the east where the war became incredibly bitter. No question atrocities were committed but that is war. It's hell. Why be surprised? Americans and Brits have their own atrocities to own up to as well. Does that mean that all American and Brits were the same with respect to their war actions? It is not logical to make those assumptions. Stepping back, all of the European men who fought in large Euro wars have an unfortunate history to reconcile. They were used by colonial rulers. It's easy to argue that WWII started at the Treaty of Versailles where the war to destroy the German people continued. This was immoral. Then the blowback took place in the late 30's and 40's. See John Maynard Keynes, The Price of Peace. Stepping back even further, the cancer of colonial competition fueled the animosity between colonial rulers (descendants of Queen Victoria) and then the ordinary European man was sent off to fight for these rulers and their ambitions. There is no glory in this pathetic narrative. The average European man was used and abused by these rulers who pulled their strings. Final point, my late American father-in-law fought in WWII. He landed shortly after D-Day and fought all the way across Europe. He was in a lot of combat and was the tip of the spear so to speak. He couldn't explain how he survived. He helped open at least one work camp/concentration camp where bodies were stacked like cordwood. What he told me about dealing with Wehrmacht vs SS is instructive for the topic of this CZcams video. He indicated that Americans and Brits did not take SS soldiers prisoner because SS soldiers would not take prisoners and they were brainwashed politically. They couldn't be told anything. So they shot them. How often he didn't say. They would also lance them with their bayonets. The Wehrmacht regular army were a lot of normal soldiers who were glad to be taken prisoner, end the war and go home. The conversation in this video tries to put the average Wehrmacht soldier and the SS in the same frame or level. They were very different. Virtuous? Who is virtuous in war?
@@tom80 USE paragraphs next x. Painful reading, but great writing - rare on the forum; NOT often SCENE ....
@@tom80no your arguments are still odd. I didn’t hear any demonisation during the lecture, just an examination of the contradictions of human nature and the post-hoc rationalisations humans are susceptible to when trying to reconcile their own behaviour. I think you are too anxious to absolve individuals of responsibility for their own actions, by blaming the rulers, governments or those in authority. No question that individuals get caught up in the storm of history, but that is to understand, not excuse abhorrent behaviour. Claiming that the Western Allies also had incidents of abhorrent behaviour is true, but doe# not excuse members of Der Hier their own atrocities. I have no argument with your contention that the time period was febrile politically, but that provides only context, not justification. It’s not easy to identify a time in recent history when politics was not febrile, I have lived through the past six decades and I can’t recall any particularly tranquil periods.
@@thesmallerhalf1968 Odd to you perhaps. I am not absolving anyone of their behavior but I am saying that the actors in WWII have different levels of responsibility. Painting everyone with a broad brush is lazy and lacks analysis. By contrast, the Allies after WWII blamed and allocated responsibility to the individual in the Nuremberg trials. If you don't want to accept nuance then you deprive yourself of understanding.
And keep in mind that war is just another tool in a broader political game. It is the ultimate escalation of political combat. It is not something separate. WWII was predicted by John MK when the ink was still drying on the Versailles Treaty. People had choices but they chose to pursue a political path that would only lead to a devastation of Germany and then a military rebuilding and then another war. Who in history is being held responsible for that?
If you are looking for a simple morality play or white hat/black hat to keep your life simple that is reductionist to the point of a Hollywood movie.
change the shape once a soldier dies
I'm not sure what you mean, change the shape of what please?
Not bringing into the equation how the combatants on both sides viewed one another, affecting how they fought one another, in this great conflict between two evil cultures, that hated one another; gives a one sided perspective. Not drawing comparisons between the heroic Soviet butchers, to the heroic Nazi butchers, by using the old saying two wrongs don’t make a right; is quite disappointing.
But this wasn't trying to talk about how the Soviets fought, it was about the German Army
All armies commit atrocities in war.
Msybe. But clearly some commit a lot more
@@WW2TV Equally clearly, the bigger the war the more atrocities are committed. Whether the Wehrmacht committed more atrocities than the Red Army and the NKVD is debatable. It is impossible to quantify.
@@asmodeus0454It is not debatable. Are you aware of the einzatsgruppen death squads systematically murdering 10s of thousands of civilians? Tell me of the equivalent evil from the allies. Your suggestion that it is debatable which side was worse is either ignorant, disingenuous or morally bankrupt or all three.
Reaction the topic of Nazi moral vs Wehrmacht moral and that Nazi ideology was very new to German society. That’s not accurate at all. Racial superiority, anti semitic sentiments, where strong tendicies in middle European German culture. Prussian and Baltic German nobility for instance where not different towards Jews and Slavs than ardent Nazis centuries later. Austrian perception of Hungarians, Jews, Mediterranean culture was one of inferiority.
Really think this view is absolutely disgusting to view the Germans as some marvel super villains. Ridiculous 11 million personal for German in ww2. No one talks about the polish committed atrocities to Germans in danzig, no one talks about the Russian army who just RAPED Europe. Evan the Volga German in Russia got annihilated. How about any German civilians living in eastern Europe got wiped out. War is shyt. But just trying to vilify German is terrible.
Whaboutism at it's best there
49:20 should be immediately relatable to anyone who's experienced life in the US for the past 70+ years with it's whitewashed fawning adoration of it's troops in Korea, Southeast Asia, Afghanistan, and Iraq.
Why do all the younger CZcamsrs these days sing? when they speak.
Watch Philipino girls on their blogs, they all sing.
Now serious western youtubers are starting to do this.
Its very childish, and puts me off
What do you mean? Who was singing?
Have you been hitting the crack pipe a little too hard again?
This is weird, I’d rather listen to you guys, and not look at porn😲🤣👍🫡