Well, wasn't Roger Moorhouse excellent? If you have enjoyed this show, please don't forget to click like, leave a comment for other viewers and if you have not done so already please SUSBSCRIBE so you don't miss our next streams. You can also become a member of this channel and support me financially here czcams.com/channels/UC1nmJGHmiKtlkpA6SJMeA.html. Links to any books discussed, WW2TV merchandise, our social media pages and other WW2TV shows to watch can all be found in the full CZcams description. Lastly, my own book Angels of Mercy is always available online - more info here www.ddayhistorian.com/angels-of-mercy.html
@@salt27dogg You are probably right. The 'Jewish question' is mentioned in Spunner's book "Berlin" - again way back to the 500s AD - and the need for economic/business excellence in Berlin and beyond encouraged Jewish immigration, then of course pogroms ensued. It's another inter-linked issue with the vast variety of ethnicities in the greater European area.
Superb viewing. Being a keen, even avid fan of this period ( particularly the Winter & subsequent Continuation Wars, strongly supplemented with anything to do with the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact & subsequent dismembering of the Polish state ), I was rather stunned . To realise that I’d somehow overlooked this episode !
About Cieszyn, many people forget that in 1919 Czech forces took it from Poland during Polish-Soviet war(1918-1921) and there was a big resentment about it during 1920s and 30s
And adding to the comment, this war(Polish-Soviet war) was a big thing, because it impacted very negatively referendum about joining polish majority reegions to Poland in Masuria, Pomerania and Silesia, because in addition to freicorps acting against it, people were seeing Poland as a loosing side until 1920, and were more able to accept being in neutral countries instead of under soviet rule
I've been following and watching WWll content creators for over 2 years now, on CZcams, but I'm just now finding this channel, fantastic content, and for that you receive a new subscriber 😁
It was controversial at the time but people have to remember that the tension t e s c h e n area was predominantly polish 5/6 of the population was polish the checks stole it from Poland at the end of world war one there was resources there a lot of resources things that the Czech Republic did not need they had plenty of resources within their own country and they were opportunistic. The other thing was that the checks were resented because they were openly sympathetic to the Communist party of Russia and they refused to allow for need shipments of munitions to go through the Czech Republic to Poland from the West
PL gave CZ-SL an ultimatum (12 h ?) to give up that land in 1938. No casualties, no cooperation with Germany. On the other hand it was this very land that got invaded by Bolshevik-affiliated CZ-SL in 1919, when PL was in the middle of war with Bolsheviks. Many casualties back then. Kind of stab in the back IMO.
Roger does a tremendous job of getting the story of Poland in this period, out there. I must point out that I’m 35 minutes in and he hasn’t yet mentioned Danzig. The map kind of suggests it’s in East Prussia, which of course it wasn’t - it was a Free City incorporating a far larger area than the city of Danzig. The story of Gdansk/Danzig is fascinating in itself (for future reference). Thanks so much for doing this and getting Roger on.
It came up eventually Martin, but this show was one where there were almost an infinite number of rabbit-holes we could have lost ourselves in. Such a massive subject
my Great Grandfather was a veteran of the Polish war of independence in 1919 - 1920. my Grandfather never spoke about it so to hear snip bits of it is fascinating.
Watching on catch up, what an in-depth stream from Roger so much on Poland I never knew. This has been a fantastic week, you have put together some excellent guests and topics, thank you both Roger and Paul
This was an absolutely stellar presentation. Roger gives a very detailed overview of Polish history with Germany & the Soviet Union from 1918 into 1939.
Recommended reading: “Haller’s Polish Army in France” Vol I & II by Paul S. Valasek “Destiny Can Wait” “The Forgotten Few” by Adam Zamoyski, “A Question of Honor” by Lynne Olson and Stanley Cloud “Freely I Served: The Memoir of the Commander, 1st Polish Independent Parachute Brigade, 1941-1944” Major-General Stanislaw F. Sosabowski “Goodbye Poland: A memoir. Siberia. Escape and the WWII war years” by Stefan Maczka “The Eagle Unbowed” by Halik Kochanski “Poles Apart” by George F. Cholewczynski “With the Red Devils at Arnhem” by Marek Święcicki “Codename Rygor, The Spy Behind the Allied Victory in North Africa” by Mieczysław Zygfryd Słowikowski
Chin Dobray! I have wider reading about the 'German' perspective - I'm no expert but the White-Spunner book "Berlin" underlines these issues empirically. The wider questions are interesting, as Moorehouse outlined.
Very impressed by how much information you two managed to squeeze into 90 minutes. The question on how the Polish Soviet war influenced future Polish planning got me thinking; when you look at Polish tank designs they are what the British would have called Cruiser tanks aka thin armour, high speeds... tanks built for exploiting breakthroughs rather than punching holes through dense heavily fortified regions. During the 1919-21 war their airforce primarily served as recon and ground attack and the same can see in later Polish designs. The Spanish civil war saw a change in designs, the appearence of more modern fighter designs and a tank design that would be more associated with the later "medium" tank designs.
The narrative of American historians has downplayed the Polish resistance to Fall Weiss since the beginning. I have my suspicions as to why, but I see a new trend that finally is getting to the truth: that the Poles fought back well. Their leadership was confused, and really doomed their effort, but the myth that the Wehrmacht had a cake-walk is finally falling away. Great discussion! Can't believe I've missed this channel for so long. Kudos to you!
In regards of the PL' defense during invasion, nobody mentions that UK pressured Poles in late August not to mobilize in order not to give DE an excuse for an invasion. Acc. to this documentary: czcams.com/video/WkATig4qnYM/video.html it costed Poles 10 motorized divisions. Things could've looked a bit different if Poles mobilized on time. Without it the 'Polish initiative' in September was broken in just 5 days, acc. to one Polish commander.
I enjoyed the presentation/discussion and am sorry I missed the livestream. Great content. I appreciate Roger’s perspective about overly detailed military history and lean his way, but each audience is different with varied needs and interests. I’ve had emotional experiences standing/walking/climbing at the actual physical sites of scores of US Civil War battles that were made possible by painstakingly detailed historical work (and preservation). Historians bring differing talents to the table and we all benefit from them and stand on their shoulders to understand macro and micro history. I appreciate WW2TV’s ability to engage with an amazing range of historians who expertly address unit minutiae and kit to the politics, the personalities (from CIC to buck private and civilians), and comparisons to current events that lend support to the old adage that we commonly learn poorly from history.
Poor Poland. They thought it would help them when France/U. Kingdom would declare war on Germany if they (Poland) was invaded. It was an excuse by those two countries to declare war if they weren't attacked themselves by the Nazis. Now France had the tanks and England had the aircraft to stand up to the Nazis yet it seems nothing was done to upgraded the Polish forces. Poor Poland, they even thought the U.S. would help somewhat.
Excellent again! I have to wonder if the Allied intentionally were mute on Stalin’s invasion of Poland due to being worried to declare war on both Germany and Russia since they hadn’t the resources to wage that large of a war. Also, I wonder how that would’ve affected lebensraum and Hitler’s plan for expansion into Russia should the Allies had declared war on both Russia and Germany!?
Great show and very good lecture / discussion! One note though about Poland`s participation in dismantling of Czechoslovak State (34:15) One missing point is the very root of this action. In 1919, when both countries appeared / reappeared on the map of Europe there was short border war between Poland and Czechoslovakia for Cieszyn (Tseshin) region, where existed strong ethnic mixture of Poles and Czechs, with Poles being in majority. Not getting deep in to reasons for conflict and who was the initiator, in 1919 Czechs gained that area. Because it happened during polish-bolshevik war and because of strongly anti-polish position and rethorics taken by Czech president, Tomáš Garrigue Masaryk during that time, there was very strong resentment in Poland against Czechoslovakia. And in 1938 when opportunity appeared, polish leadership - with very strong popular support, stepped in and took Cieszyn. Internationally it was very quickly recognized as mistake and indeed placed Poland on the bad side, but internally it has been seen as kind of "historical justice". And today it`s this "big drop of vinegar in sweet wine" of our historical narration about road to war... BTW it is very interesting example, how small episode can have much bigger consequences in long term, as this tiny conflict around Cieszyn in the beginning of existence of both countries prevented establishment of good relations later on.
On the flip side Poland took huge chunks of the USSR, today's Belarus and Ukraine, and the polish attempt to claim Ukraine as historically polish led to strained relations with the Ussr, even without factoring in the recent war. As it was the polish agitation and later on the memory of agitation gave Stalin one of pretexts to launch his Ukrainian genocide
@@jamescaan870 Never heard of partitions of Poland. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partitions_of_Poland Even with partitions tell me when Lwów was in Russian Empire or in USSR that "Poland took huge chunk of USSR. And accusing that Poland was a cause of Ukrainian genocide it is acrobatic for idiots.
@@horsefish2525 polish Lithuania was not a nation state like today's Poland, Ukraine, or Belarus. It was an empire like the Russian empire. Poland agitated in Ukraine during the 20s but by the time of the genocide, it had stopped. However, Stalin being paranoid that he was, readily believed when the Ukrainian communist party blamed sabotage for crop shortfalls
The show is awesome and so is your channel! I just think that the occupation of Czechoslovakia (post Munich) in 1939 was much more complexly played out by German diplomacy and propaganda and the Wehrmacht. It could be one of the next shows, if you can find someone who can explain it in more detail. The war would have started during the occupation of Bohemia and Moravia, if it had not been presented to the world as the only solution. Thanks for the phenomenal content
In the same time period because of the desert terrain, vast distances the US Army relied on cavalry for the defense of the southern border. There was a cavalry division in the National Guard as well but there were not enough regiments to activate it.
3:10 I'd say Poland's own quarrelsome nobles and their hamstringing of the monarchy is the main reason Poland got carved up by its neighbours in the 18th century.
I just want to add that one of the main turning points of pre-WWII European diplomatic relations and in Polish internal politics was the Treaties of Locarno of 1925 which did great damage to the Anglo-Polish and Franco-Polish diplomatic relations and ended the diplomatic isolation of Weimar Germany and opened the flood gates for successful future German diplomatic and political machinations while causing dramatic regime change in Poland.
It is worth to mention that the only loss of land of Czechoslovakia because of WW2 was the territory annexed by Soviet Union which while "liberating" Czechoslovakia ordinary stole it. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpathian_Ruthenia#Transition_to_Soviet_takeover_and_control_(1944-1945) The territory called Carpathian Rus was always through 1000 years belonging to the Kingdom of Hungry and it is not understandable why Czechoslovakia was awarded it after WWI
We have a lot of rusinians in east slovakia, i remember when i talked with some old lady who only spoke in rusinian language or whatever i couldn't understand anything. If Carpathian Rus was full of people like this then i would assume they are closer to ukraine than slovakia or czechia. Austria Hungary was full of minorities so if it was a part of hungary before is completely irrelevant.
It was not just the Polish annexation of a part of Czechoslovakia. Poland also gave Germany a free hand to move against Austria and Czechoslovakia by signing a non aggression agreement with Hitler in 1934. Poland also refused to let the Soviets transit it's territory in 1938 to help the Czechs
OMFG Roger said in this video, "the soviets always do big big military exercises before they invade anyone. I hope it will not happen this time. They do it right next to Ukraine. Its the Kremlins playbook" - JAN 2022.... THAT IS GENIUS!! I mean only 1 month later the freaking world changed. Wau ! I didnt see that comming 2 years ago. Roger really knows how to read people and actions!
Great introduction to studying Poland in the 2nd world war, and as said many times in this episode: "It's kinda like what we see in Ukraine today." Lots to learn about this part of the conflict for historians and military studies.
A very interesting and informative presentation which should be required watching for anyone interested in WW2 and the run up to same. Great info on what happened to Poland and it's people.
The Poles were very much aware of the Germans were up to in the months preceding the September 1939 invasion. They were reading German Enigma messages on daily basis.
it hasnt been said here in the video, but I think it is important to know, that Hitler gave the ready message to all troops to attack on 26 Aug 1939 but revoked it last minute because of the 25 sept pact of poland and france/UK. BUT SOME units did not get the memo and attacked Poland on 26.Sept.1939!! But somehow you never hear about it. Like what happened after that? Was that another point for the polish to give an alert message to all troops, what did france/Uk say then? How did the germans explain that?
Absolutely first class presentation. Yes, always read this from a Western/American POV so needless to say this was very eye opening... Yes, including the "why didn't the UK declare war on the USSR" thank you
At 1:13:10 when talking about those living in France in 1939, the French Communists in government actually took their orders from Stalin as per Stephen Kotkin, author of a 3 volume biography of Stalin.
the influence of russian communists on other movements in europe was kinda insane, they called a lot of them to "report" in moscow, a lot never returned. tito had quite few very close calls
The part about maneuvres along the Ukrainian borders gave me serious chills. Like NOW we know what happened next and that indeed it did not bode well. Great show as always. PS I have to say I often encountered this narrative that the cavalry was outdated and basically pointless, and armoured trains were a thing of the past even more so. Also, it seemed that the cavalry was actually more expensive in maintenance than an armoured brigade, however the initial rearmament cost was very high and therefore the cavalry remained a thing in 1939. Armoured trains played important role in a few battles as they offered a mobile artillery support. It's worth of noting that after Barbarossa Germans actually were expanding their cavalry and armoured trains remained a thing in the Eastern Front till late war.
The number of Jews living in Germany was 522,000 in 1933 but had fallen to 214,000 by 1939. To quote Wikipedia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Germany "In January 1933, some 522,000 Jews lived in Germany. After the Nazis took power and implemented their anti-semitic ideology and policies, the Jewish community was increasingly persecuted. About 60% (numbering around 304,000) emigrated during the first six years of the Nazi dictatorship....... Only roughly 214,000 Jews were left in Germany proper (1937 borders) on the eve of World War II."
Roger Moorhouse: "They then have like large scale exercises, which is the Soviet way, and that's what they do now...They're having, you've noticed they're having exercises on the frontier of Ukraine, this is always the prelude to something big, so I hope it's not now, but historically it doesn't look good..." On point.
Good treatment of the main subject, marred only by one speaker's ridiculous, hackneyed drivel when making a trivial non-point re Britain and Ireland, in which he ill-informedly trundled out the now usual, sad, cliched lie about nominally British anti-Irish stances really denoting just English ones. When in fact, especially w.r.t. the time under discussion, by far the most vehemently and habitually "anti-Irish" element in the mainland UK population was the majority Protestant Scots one. Which was (and still is) by far the most closely associated with Ulster unionism.
I posted a comment earlier today that included several book recommendations. I took some time pulling out those books so that I could get their titles and authors correct. I don't see that comment. What happened to it?
You say how important it is to talk about the Soviet Invasion of Poland and put them back in the narrative, yet an hour in and you barely mentioned the soviet perspective. Also when poland wars on its neighbours its portrayed as a bit cheeky and not a good idea. but when soviets snap up poland its seen as collaboration. I mean the Soviet Union deserves to be condemned in ww2 but this narrative that we let off and ignore Soviet collaboration with Nazi Germany is nonsense, Its taught in school and its in umpteen documentaries and movies. The West equally had treaties, close ties and exchange programmes with Nazi Germany and ignored clear evidence of Camps and a refugee crisis yet somehow the Soviets trying to make friendly relations with a potentially very dangerous neighbour is seen as betrayal.
We will come back to the Soviet invasion in the future. This week was all about the Rise of the Third Reich. In a future week we will do the same for the Soviet Union, and indeed we will be doing more on Poland
I confess I find it somewhat sad that a clearly knowledgeable person is content in simply brushing aside as just russian/soviet-phile apologetics the matter of the Polish Second Republic aggressive foreign policy and how it shaped USSR expansionism. The matter that bad faith actors bring it up in their own interest should not prevent us from trying to look at it independently of such commentators. Many prominent political figures including Piłsudski at the time of the republic's formation clearly desired for an expanded Poland, harking back to the age of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, and this clearly put it at odds with several of its neighbors, as evidence by the multiple wars it ended up involved in.
@@GNeves302 I hope you understand that Roger's knowledge of Poland and its neighbours extends way beyond this CZcams conversation. Roger regularly speaks at Polish organised conferences etc. There is only so many directions a single conversation can take
In fact, it would be interesting to locate Piłsudski's Poland in the context of the widespread rise to power throughout Europe of the rhetorics of palingenesis which is often associated just with the more obvious forms of fascism (i.e. Italy and Germany), but arguably is also widespread in most countries emerging from the dissolution of the Habsburg monarchy and the tsarist regime.
Great show. A nation betrayed, the deviousness of politics and a reminder of how long Hitler held the grudge of Polish victories during the inter War years. As you both state a topic that needs further investigation and research.
How could the Poles in 1939 not realize Germany's intention was the Soviet Union; and they were inline in that endeavor? The stupidity of not becoming an allie of USSR, was foolish. All the Soviets did was extend the border of shock before invasion, and Take care of Japan at the time..
If the French, British, and even their cheek-by-jowl Scandinavian neighbours did not much more than splutter out platitudes and tolerate tiny streams of volunteers to Finland, it really does seem impossible to suppose that western governments would have seriously contemplated a war conducted against Berlin, Moscow, and with a distinct possibility of Tokyo turning its attention even quicker than they actually did toward French and UK colonies in SE Asia.
I am concerned with the need to understand the culture of the 'German' lands and I think their, history and that of 'Poland' , lies way further back, certainly to the mid 1800s and Fichte's the whole idea of greater Germany. Well before the unification of states in 1871 White-Spunner ("Berlin" 2020:160ff) cites (Balfour "Berlin p737-1989" p30 quotes Fichte's address) and so shows ample evidence of the violent and problematic immigration-fuelled history of the German-speaking peoples - das Volk - particularly of Prussia and especially of the gap to East Prussia in his wonderful book .
Well, wasn't Roger Moorhouse excellent? If you have enjoyed this show, please don't forget to click like, leave a comment for other viewers and if you have not done so already please SUSBSCRIBE so you don't miss our next streams. You can also become a member of this channel and support me financially here czcams.com/channels/UC1nmJGHmiKtlkpA6SJMeA.html. Links to any books discussed, WW2TV merchandise, our social media pages and other WW2TV shows to watch can all be found in the full CZcams description. Lastly, my own book Angels of Mercy is always available online - more info here www.ddayhistorian.com/angels-of-mercy.html
I thought pre Hitler there was 500,000 German Jews . Not 160,000. Interesting..
@@salt27dogg You are probably right. The 'Jewish question' is mentioned in Spunner's book "Berlin" - again way back to the 500s AD - and the need for economic/business excellence in Berlin and beyond encouraged Jewish immigration, then of course pogroms ensued. It's another inter-linked issue with the vast variety of ethnicities in the greater European area.
No, he was terrible, reframing things to his own predetermined opinions, just shameful to even call him a historian
@@f1refall You need to give a specific example if you are going to insult Roger, who is highly regarded in the UK and Poland
Superb viewing.
Being a keen, even avid fan of this period ( particularly the Winter & subsequent Continuation Wars, strongly supplemented with anything to do with the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact & subsequent dismembering of the Polish state ), I was rather stunned .
To realise that I’d somehow overlooked this episode !
About Cieszyn, many people forget that in 1919 Czech forces took it from Poland during Polish-Soviet war(1918-1921) and there was a big resentment about it during 1920s and 30s
And adding to the comment, this war(Polish-Soviet war) was a big thing, because it impacted very negatively referendum about joining polish majority reegions to Poland in Masuria, Pomerania and Silesia, because in addition to freicorps acting against it, people were seeing Poland as a loosing side until 1920, and were more able to accept being in neutral countries instead of under soviet rule
I've been following and watching WWll content creators for over 2 years now, on CZcams, but I'm just now finding this channel, fantastic content, and for that you receive a new subscriber 😁
Welcome aboard! We have a lot of content, I suggest using the playlists to find subjects of interest
This is a very good channel ( try and get Mark Felton on!) the Stephen Spielberg of WW2
So interesting... I didn't know of the Polish annexation of Czechoslovakia. Shows how complex it was at that time.
It was controversial at the time but people have to remember that the tension t e s c h e n area was predominantly polish 5/6 of the population was polish the checks stole it from Poland at the end of world war one there was resources there a lot of resources things that the Czech Republic did not need they had plenty of resources within their own country and they were opportunistic. The other thing was that the checks were resented because they were openly sympathetic to the Communist party of Russia and they refused to allow for need shipments of munitions to go through the Czech Republic to Poland from the West
PL gave CZ-SL an ultimatum (12 h ?) to give up that land in 1938. No casualties, no cooperation with Germany.
On the other hand it was this very land that got invaded by Bolshevik-affiliated CZ-SL in 1919, when PL was in the middle of war with Bolsheviks. Many casualties back then. Kind of stab in the back IMO.
Roger does a tremendous job of getting the story of Poland in this period, out there. I must point out that I’m 35 minutes in and he hasn’t yet mentioned Danzig. The map kind of suggests it’s in East Prussia, which of course it wasn’t - it was a Free City incorporating a far larger area than the city of Danzig. The story of Gdansk/Danzig is fascinating in itself (for future reference). Thanks so much for doing this and getting Roger on.
It came up eventually Martin, but this show was one where there were almost an infinite number of rabbit-holes we could have lost ourselves in. Such a massive subject
my Great Grandfather was a veteran of the Polish war of independence in 1919 - 1920. my Grandfather never spoke about it so to hear snip bits of it is fascinating.
Watching on catch up, what an in-depth stream from Roger so much on Poland I never knew. This has been a fantastic week, you have put together some excellent guests and topics, thank you both Roger and Paul
Thanks, you too!
This was an absolutely stellar presentation. Roger gives a very detailed overview of Polish history with Germany & the Soviet Union from 1918 into 1939.
This one was exceptional! And I’m already a binge-watcher and an addict, lol!
Recommended reading:
“Haller’s Polish Army in France” Vol I & II by Paul S. Valasek
“Destiny Can Wait”
“The Forgotten Few” by Adam Zamoyski,
“A Question of Honor” by Lynne Olson and Stanley Cloud
“Freely I Served: The Memoir of the Commander, 1st Polish Independent Parachute Brigade, 1941-1944” Major-General Stanislaw F. Sosabowski
“Goodbye Poland: A memoir. Siberia. Escape and the WWII war years” by Stefan Maczka
“The Eagle Unbowed” by Halik Kochanski
“Poles Apart” by George F. Cholewczynski
“With the Red Devils at Arnhem” by Marek Święcicki
“Codename Rygor, The Spy Behind the Allied Victory in North Africa” by Mieczysław Zygfryd Słowikowski
Chin Dobray! I have wider reading about the 'German' perspective - I'm no expert but the White-Spunner book "Berlin" underlines these issues empirically. The wider questions are interesting, as Moorehouse outlined.
Woody. I've been binge-watching the German series, the rise of 3rd Reich. They are all stellar. Great work!!
Very impressed by how much information you two managed to squeeze into 90 minutes.
The question on how the Polish Soviet war influenced future Polish planning got me thinking; when you look at Polish tank designs they are what the British would have called Cruiser tanks aka thin armour, high speeds... tanks built for exploiting breakthroughs rather than punching holes through dense heavily fortified regions.
During the 1919-21 war their airforce primarily served as recon and ground attack and the same can see in later Polish designs.
The Spanish civil war saw a change in designs, the appearence of more modern fighter designs and a tank design that would be more associated with the later "medium" tank designs.
We will be talking about tanks in the Spanish Civil War next week!
The narrative of American historians has downplayed the Polish resistance to Fall Weiss since the beginning. I have my suspicions as to why, but I see a new trend that finally is getting to the truth: that the Poles fought back well. Their leadership was confused, and really doomed their effort, but the myth that the Wehrmacht had a cake-walk is finally falling away. Great discussion! Can't believe I've missed this channel for so long. Kudos to you!
Welcome to the channel Joey
In regards of the PL' defense during invasion, nobody mentions that UK pressured Poles in late August not to mobilize in order not to give DE an excuse for an invasion.
Acc. to this documentary: czcams.com/video/WkATig4qnYM/video.html it costed Poles 10 motorized divisions. Things could've looked a bit different if Poles mobilized on time. Without it the 'Polish initiative' in September was broken in just 5 days, acc. to one Polish commander.
Another great show from ww2tv!
Interesting show enjoyed and learned a lot. I'm catching up on past episodes.😅 THANKS!
I enjoyed the presentation/discussion and am sorry I missed the livestream. Great content. I appreciate Roger’s perspective about overly detailed military history and lean his way, but each audience is different with varied needs and interests. I’ve had emotional experiences standing/walking/climbing at the actual physical sites of scores of US Civil War battles that were made possible by painstakingly detailed historical work (and preservation). Historians bring differing talents to the table and we all benefit from them and stand on their shoulders to understand macro and micro history. I appreciate WW2TV’s ability to engage with an amazing range of historians who expertly address unit minutiae and kit to the politics, the personalities (from CIC to buck private and civilians), and comparisons to current events that lend support to the old adage that we commonly learn poorly from history.
World class presentation, content and education!
Poor Poland. They thought it would help them when France/U. Kingdom would declare war on Germany if they (Poland) was invaded. It was an excuse by those two countries to declare war if they weren't attacked themselves by the Nazis. Now France had the tanks and England had the aircraft to stand up to the Nazis yet it seems nothing was done to upgraded the Polish forces. Poor Poland, they even thought the U.S. would help somewhat.
Как сказал Черчилль про Польшу, :Гиена Европы. Так, что это о многом говорит.
Excellent again! I have to wonder if the Allied intentionally were mute on Stalin’s invasion of Poland due to being worried to declare war on both Germany and Russia since they hadn’t the resources to wage that large of a war.
Also, I wonder how that would’ve affected lebensraum and Hitler’s plan for expansion into Russia should the Allies had declared war on both Russia and Germany!?
One enemy at at time, otherwise it would have been impossible. Clever heads knew Hitler would turn on Stalin at some point.
Great show and very good lecture / discussion!
One note though about Poland`s participation in dismantling of Czechoslovak State (34:15)
One missing point is the very root of this action. In 1919, when both countries appeared / reappeared on the map of Europe there was short border war between Poland and Czechoslovakia for Cieszyn (Tseshin) region, where existed strong ethnic mixture of Poles and Czechs, with Poles being in majority. Not getting deep in to reasons for conflict and who was the initiator, in 1919 Czechs gained that area.
Because it happened during polish-bolshevik war and because of strongly anti-polish position and rethorics taken by Czech president, Tomáš Garrigue Masaryk during that time, there was very strong resentment in Poland against Czechoslovakia. And in 1938 when opportunity appeared, polish leadership - with very strong popular support, stepped in and took Cieszyn.
Internationally it was very quickly recognized as mistake and indeed placed Poland on the bad side, but internally it has been seen as kind of "historical justice".
And today it`s this "big drop of vinegar in sweet wine" of our historical narration about road to war...
BTW it is very interesting example, how small episode can have much bigger consequences in long term, as this tiny conflict around Cieszyn in the beginning of existence of both countries prevented establishment of good relations later on.
Thanks for the extra detail
In 1919 it was not Soviet Polish war but conflict with Ukrainians
On the flip side Poland took huge chunks of the USSR, today's Belarus and Ukraine, and the polish attempt to claim Ukraine as historically polish led to strained relations with the Ussr, even without factoring in the recent war. As it was the polish agitation and later on the memory of agitation gave Stalin one of pretexts to launch his Ukrainian genocide
@@jamescaan870 Never heard of partitions of Poland. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partitions_of_Poland Even with partitions tell me when Lwów was in Russian Empire or in USSR that "Poland took huge chunk of USSR. And accusing that Poland was a cause of Ukrainian genocide it is acrobatic for idiots.
@@horsefish2525 polish Lithuania was not a nation state like today's Poland, Ukraine, or Belarus. It was an empire like the Russian empire. Poland agitated in Ukraine during the 20s but by the time of the genocide, it had stopped. However, Stalin being paranoid that he was, readily believed when the Ukrainian communist party blamed sabotage for crop shortfalls
Amazing presentation, and fascinating subject area. Thank you 😊
The show is awesome and so is your channel!
I just think that the occupation of Czechoslovakia (post Munich) in 1939 was much more complexly played out by German diplomacy and propaganda and the Wehrmacht.
It could be one of the next shows, if you can find someone who can explain it in more detail.
The war would have started during the occupation of Bohemia and Moravia, if it had not been presented to the world as the only solution.
Thanks for the phenomenal content
Again a great presentation, well worth watching and absorbing.
Glad you enjoyed it
In the same time period because of the desert terrain, vast distances the US Army relied on cavalry for the defense of the southern border. There was a cavalry division in the National Guard as well but there were not enough regiments to activate it.
Very glad I stumbled upon your channel. Interesting video.
Thank you
3:10 I'd say Poland's own quarrelsome nobles and their hamstringing of the monarchy is the main reason Poland got carved up by its neighbours in the 18th century.
Great work as usual. Thanks.
I just want to add that one of the main turning points of pre-WWII European diplomatic relations and in Polish internal politics was the Treaties of Locarno of 1925 which did great damage to the Anglo-Polish and Franco-Polish diplomatic relations and ended the diplomatic isolation of Weimar Germany and opened the flood gates for successful future German diplomatic and political machinations while causing dramatic regime change in Poland.
It is worth to mention that the only loss of land of Czechoslovakia because of WW2 was the territory annexed by Soviet Union which while "liberating" Czechoslovakia ordinary stole it. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carpathian_Ruthenia#Transition_to_Soviet_takeover_and_control_(1944-1945) The territory called Carpathian Rus was always through 1000 years belonging to the Kingdom of Hungry and it is not understandable why Czechoslovakia was awarded it after WWI
We have a lot of rusinians in east slovakia, i remember when i talked with some old lady who only spoke in rusinian language or whatever i couldn't understand anything. If Carpathian Rus was full of people like this then i would assume they are closer to ukraine than slovakia or czechia. Austria Hungary was full of minorities so if it was a part of hungary before is completely irrelevant.
It was not just the Polish annexation of a part of Czechoslovakia. Poland also gave Germany a free hand to move against Austria and Czechoslovakia by signing a non aggression agreement with Hitler in 1934. Poland also refused to let the Soviets transit it's territory in 1938 to help the Czechs
OMFG Roger said in this video, "the soviets always do big big military exercises before they invade anyone. I hope it will not happen this time. They do it right next to Ukraine. Its the Kremlins playbook" - JAN 2022.... THAT IS GENIUS!! I mean only 1 month later the freaking world changed. Wau ! I didnt see that comming 2 years ago. Roger really knows how to read people and actions!
Another great presentation.
I am currently on a Fall Weiß deep dive. Thanks for this one!!! Grüße
Hello :) Can you also do the soviet invasion of Poland? Greetings Max
We do actually talk about the Soviet invasion too
@@WW2TV oh thanks for the info! I have the video on hold until I have the time to watch it.
Great introduction to studying Poland in the 2nd world war, and as said many times in this episode: "It's kinda like what we see in Ukraine today." Lots to learn about this part of the conflict for historians and military studies.
Hi.bthis small chank of Czechoslovakia was taken by Czechoslovaks in 1920 during the Soviet war
A very interesting and informative presentation which should be required watching for anyone interested in WW2 and the run up to same. Great info on what happened to Poland and it's people.
Thanks Pat
The Poles were very much aware of the Germans were up to in the months preceding the September 1939 invasion. They were reading German Enigma messages on daily basis.
Can I request the opening clip isn't so loud lol scares the dog sometimes
it hasnt been said here in the video, but I think it is important to know, that Hitler gave the ready message to all troops to attack on 26 Aug 1939 but revoked it last minute because of the 25 sept pact of poland and france/UK. BUT SOME units did not get the memo and attacked Poland on 26.Sept.1939!! But somehow you never hear about it. Like what happened after that? Was that another point for the polish to give an alert message to all troops, what did france/Uk say then? How did the germans explain that?
Excellent stuff!
Thank you kindly!
First to fight in Europe ... a slight clarification. Interesting presentation.
50:20 JFC Fuller!
Wow. Im only 30 minutes in but what an amazing presentation
Most people don't know about Soviet invasion of Poland.
Most people who watch WW2TV are aware but maybe not in general terms
Absolutely first class presentation. Yes, always read this from a Western/American POV so needless to say this was very eye opening... Yes, including the "why didn't the UK declare war on the USSR" thank you
At 1:13:10 when talking about those living in France in 1939, the French Communists in government actually took their orders from Stalin as per Stephen Kotkin, author of a 3 volume biography of Stalin.
the influence of russian communists on other movements in europe was kinda insane, they called a lot of them to "report" in moscow, a lot never returned. tito had quite few very close calls
Are there any good books in English that deal solely with Interwar Poland?
I'm not sure, I will have a look
Poland will never die🇺🇲❤️🇵🇱
The part about maneuvres along the Ukrainian borders gave me serious chills.
Like NOW we know what happened next and that indeed it did not bode well.
Great show as always.
PS I have to say I often encountered this narrative that the cavalry was outdated and basically pointless, and armoured trains were a thing of the past even more so.
Also, it seemed that the cavalry was actually more expensive in maintenance than an armoured brigade, however the initial rearmament cost was very high and therefore the cavalry remained a thing in 1939.
Armoured trains played important role in a few battles as they offered a mobile artillery support.
It's worth of noting that after Barbarossa Germans actually were expanding their cavalry and armoured trains remained a thing in the Eastern Front till late war.
Just north stream 1
The number of Jews living in Germany was 522,000 in 1933 but had fallen to 214,000 by 1939. To quote Wikipedia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Germany
"In January 1933, some 522,000 Jews lived in Germany. After the Nazis took power and implemented their anti-semitic ideology and policies, the Jewish community was increasingly persecuted. About 60% (numbering around 304,000) emigrated during the first six years of the Nazi dictatorship....... Only roughly 214,000 Jews were left in Germany proper (1937 borders) on the eve of World War II."
Roger Moorhouse: "They then have like large scale exercises, which is the Soviet way, and that's what they do now...They're having, you've noticed they're having exercises on the frontier of Ukraine, this is always the prelude to something big, so I hope it's not now, but historically it doesn't look good..."
On point.
Yes indeed
He called the Russian invasion of Ukraine... Like a month or two before it happened
Good treatment of the main subject, marred only by one speaker's ridiculous, hackneyed drivel when making a trivial non-point re Britain and Ireland, in which he ill-informedly trundled out the now usual, sad, cliched lie about nominally British anti-Irish stances really denoting just English ones. When in fact, especially w.r.t. the time under discussion, by far the most vehemently and habitually "anti-Irish" element in the mainland UK population was the majority Protestant Scots one. Which was (and still is) by far the most closely associated with Ulster unionism.
I posted a comment earlier today that included several book recommendations. I took some time pulling out those books so that I could get their titles and authors correct. I don't see that comment. What happened to it?
I've no idea, certainly I have not deleted it. CZcams has an issue with too many off-site links. Maybe just list the titles?
@@WW2TV I just tried it again and my post is gone. I'll try just listing the books without any comments.
You say how important it is to talk about the Soviet Invasion of Poland and put them back in the narrative, yet an hour in and you barely mentioned the soviet perspective. Also when poland wars on its neighbours its portrayed as a bit cheeky and not a good idea. but when soviets snap up poland its seen as collaboration. I mean the Soviet Union deserves to be condemned in ww2 but this narrative that we let off and ignore Soviet collaboration with Nazi Germany is nonsense, Its taught in school and its in umpteen documentaries and movies. The West equally had treaties, close ties and exchange programmes with Nazi Germany and ignored clear evidence of Camps and a refugee crisis yet somehow the Soviets trying to make friendly relations with a potentially very dangerous neighbour is seen as betrayal.
We will come back to the Soviet invasion in the future. This week was all about the Rise of the Third Reich. In a future week we will do the same for the Soviet Union, and indeed we will be doing more on Poland
I confess I find it somewhat sad that a clearly knowledgeable person is content in simply brushing aside as just russian/soviet-phile apologetics the matter of the Polish Second Republic aggressive foreign policy and how it shaped USSR expansionism. The matter that bad faith actors bring it up in their own interest should not prevent us from trying to look at it independently of such commentators. Many prominent political figures including Piłsudski at the time of the republic's formation clearly desired for an expanded Poland, harking back to the age of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, and this clearly put it at odds with several of its neighbors, as evidence by the multiple wars it ended up involved in.
@@GNeves302 I hope you understand that Roger's knowledge of Poland and its neighbours extends way beyond this CZcams conversation. Roger regularly speaks at Polish organised conferences etc. There is only so many directions a single conversation can take
In fact, it would be interesting to locate Piłsudski's Poland in the context of the widespread rise to power throughout Europe of the rhetorics of palingenesis which is often associated just with the more obvious forms of fascism (i.e. Italy and Germany), but arguably is also widespread in most countries emerging from the dissolution of the Habsburg monarchy and the tsarist regime.
Great show. A nation betrayed, the deviousness of politics and a reminder of how long Hitler held the grudge of Polish victories during the inter War years. As you both state a topic that needs further investigation and research.
How could the Poles in 1939 not realize Germany's intention was the Soviet Union; and they were inline in that endeavor? The stupidity of not becoming an allie of USSR, was foolish. All the Soviets did was extend the border of shock before invasion, and Take care of Japan at the time..
They would rather be conquered and die than be allied to communists and moskals
Ask the Czechs how rational appeasement was.
I find it “funny” that giving that Hitler was so ideological opposed to Communism that he had no problem working with them
Keep your friend close and your enemies closer
That comment about new Russian manoeuvres at the Ukrainian border was more on point than Roger maybe intended.
Is it fair to say, that without the German -Soviet pact there would be no WW2.
If the French, British, and even their cheek-by-jowl Scandinavian neighbours did not much more than splutter out platitudes and tolerate tiny streams of volunteers to Finland, it really does seem impossible to suppose that western governments would have seriously contemplated a war conducted against Berlin, Moscow, and with a distinct possibility of Tokyo turning its attention even quicker than they actually did toward French and UK colonies in SE Asia.
I am concerned with the need to understand the culture of the 'German' lands and I think their, history and that of 'Poland' , lies way further back, certainly to the mid 1800s and Fichte's the whole idea of greater Germany. Well before the unification of states in 1871 White-Spunner ("Berlin" 2020:160ff) cites (Balfour "Berlin p737-1989" p30 quotes Fichte's address) and so shows ample evidence of the violent and problematic immigration-fuelled history of the German-speaking peoples - das Volk - particularly of Prussia and especially of the gap to East Prussia in his wonderful book .
You're probably correct with that, but in a CZcams video about 1939, there's only so much backstory we can include
Blitzkrig failed in 1941.