Bookshelf Speaker Shootout!
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- čas přidán 6. 08. 2023
- This video is a follow up of my personal opinions on some various bookshelf speakers I own and listen to. Please comment below on what I should try next on the RP600M!
Here are the IsoAcoustics Iso-Puck Series Acoustic Isolators I mentioned:
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You can get this DIY2.2 speaker kit here:
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RP600M Version I
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www.patreon.com/user?u=87080658
www.skunkiedesigns.com/donate
Here is where you can buy T-shirts and other Merch with my fun logo.
skunkie-designs.myspreadshop.... - Jak na to + styl
Nooo don't take the Klipsch RP-600M upgrade video down... In fact make a new follow up video with detailed listening impressions. These are the kind of honest reviews that make DIY awesome!!!
An adjustable "L-pad" on the tweeter is what I've used to lower the output of the tweeters where they shared a channel with a less efficient woofer in my car. Parts Express is where I got 'em and recall it worked good without any negative results.
Good review. I have been a Klipsch fan since the late 70's. Not everyone's cup of tea but for my home-brew amps and preamps, the efficiency pays off.
Some people have deep pockets and don't mind dropping a $100K in a pair of speakers and another $400 -$500K in large systems.
For me, building my own gear, especially, low power amps like 45, 2A3 and 300B's and nuvistor preamps has been a lot of fun and very educational.
Bottom line, ENJOY THE MUSIC !!
Lovely and interesting that you share different contents of your passion about hifi.
Best channel ever!
I'm really glad to hear that you're enjoying your 2.2A's. I have a kit here that's waiting to be assembled. This video, along with your build series on them has me motivated me to finally clean off the workbench and get 'em glued up!
Do it!
Really like all your videos. I'm glad I subscribed!
I did the mod that you did, changing the capacitors (Mundorf MCap EVO Aluminum Oil) on my RP-500M and absolutely LOVE it! After some settling in, I can really hear the difference. The upper mids and highs had mellowed down and the soundstage widened. I mostly listen to classical - orchestral, chamber and solo and this mod is just what the doctor ordered. So, don't take down that video, for some listening situations that mod is really great.
Love, love love your videos!! I got my HiVi Swans DIY 2.2A Speaker Kit last Christmas and have been upgrading their sound for 8 months now! 😅Because they sound so good, I think I'm at the end of the upgrade path now. I highly recommend to make sure you use an oxygen free copper speaker cable to connect to them, at least 14 AWG as a first upgrade path if you haven't done so already ;) It allowed them to almost breathe easier and to sound even more clear and hit every frequency better, I'd say it improved the clarity, mids and bass response by at least 15-20% over the copper clad aluminum speaker wires. And that's a lot for that already amazing sounding speaker. I've got mine on some Pangea Audio DS200 All Steel Heavy Duty Floor Bookshelf Speaker Stands, cost me as much as the speakers, but worth it! And have the Hudson Hi-Fi 1" Platinum Silicone Isolation Dots in between the speaker and the stands. Then besides the speaker placement, I've dove into the world of DACs and discovered a Cayin RU7 1-Bit Discrete resistor based DAC - $300, it sounds so beautiful, like a tube amp/preamp and like an R2R but with a more detailed sound. It's a usb-c dongle, but I use it in line out mode into a typical Denon 7.2 AVR with really amazing results. I've returned a Topping e50 and Schiit Modi+ in this DAC discovery, will forever keep the Cayin RU7 and a cheap $80 SMSL SU-1 that sounds better than the ones I returned, that cost double its' price. I did get an iFi iPower 2 power supply for it though ;) I'm looking forward to your HiVi Swans 3-way speaker review! Also, I've upgraded my AudioTechnica stock Phono cartridge to a Nagaoka MP-200 and love it! Can't wait to build/buy an ER34 phono pre-amp for my AT turntable! These speakers are the shit, if you're into some DIY, they sound like a pair of $1000+ pre-built speakers, just read the reviews on them on Amazon. ;) Thank you for you amazing videos!
I'm glad to hear that I'm not the only one disappointed with the GR Minis. Danny really talked them up, showed the speaker response curves, and talked me into trying them. I'm an experienced woodworker so I thought I could save a couple bucks by building my own kit.
The speakers are extremely fatiguing for me to listen to for extended periods. So much so that I had tinnitus at night while sleeping. I added a Schitt crossover to my system which helped rolloff the high frequency, but that didn't make the speaker sound any better. They were just muddy and shrill. After running them for a month I took them off line and stored them in the crawlspace...never to be listened to again. I asked Danny what I could do to cut the high frequency output back a bit, and he suggested trading a 4 ohm resister in the crossover to a 5 ohm resistor (if I remember correctly). I considered trying it for a while, but decided not to mess with it because the speakers just don't sound nice for my intended use.
It's a shame because for me $250 could be spent on more important things for the family. Sorry Danny, this one is not the winner you made it sound like it would be.
So very honesty.
Never heard or owned a GR Research, however a way to change without messing with the whole design is to remove the LPad resistors from the end and use a resistor bypassed by a capicitor at the start of tweeter circuit.
This will allow you to keep same crossover point and raise or lower treble, and also tilt up and down. This would likely work on your Klipsch as well.
Won't really effect phase or anything either unless they need massive change to either components.
A few months ago, I picked up a used pair of NHT SuperZero speakers (original US made in 1995) with matching NHT sub/amp units (Chinese made in 1995) and some nice speaker stands for $149AU. I was immediately impressed with their imaging and vocal detail and that was just testing them in the less than optimal setting of my garage. I have yet to try them in my main system. Note, they definitely benefit from a sub as they have no bass below 90hz. Of course I had a look at the crossover which is fixed to the back of the speaker post holder. It has two bipolar electrolytics that I assumed would be past their use by date so I replaced them with some Dayton Audio 1% film caps. Due to their size, I had to hot glue the new caps to the back of the crossover board and refit the speaker post holder upside down so the new caps cleared the rear of the woofer (which is shielded). However, when I checked the original caps (Culver brand - metallic blue in colour), they all measured perfect despite their age and suffering some damage as they had been hot glued in as well. I can recommend picking up a pair of these speakers if you find them going cheap.
Building speakers is definatley addictive (when they turn out nice). Can't wait to see these 3 ways with ribbon tweeter you mentioned
Got the first one glued up!
I have a Reisong A10 w/ the Klipsch R51M. To my ears they're a perfect match.
yes, choose your capacitor wisely to match your desired outcome.
Stephe, Sorry to hear about the end result you had with the GR -Research desktop mini's. If I was you, I would consider calling Danny up and sharing your experience with the mini's. He really cares about his products and people who own them. I'm sure he might be able to find some tweak options, to get them sounding more to your taste.
I have the NX-Studio Monitors with the ribbon tweeters. All I can say, they're the best sounding studio monitor I've ever heard. They will require a subwoofer though. Since they only go down to 70 hertz. The NX-Studio speakers are amazing playing back through either tube or S.State amps. Note: They're very revealing, so they'll expose any weakness within a system.
Yo he comprado los nuevos clipsch Rp 500 m ll y son fantásticos, no son nada fatigantes y tienen unos bajos impresionantes .Te los recomiendo
Thank you for this comparison video!
I wonder how they'll compare to the Classix II MT (Parts Express) and Emotiva Airmotiv B1+, which are in the same price range.
The Fluance SX6 received a lot of high praises too, despite its lower price.
Your experience with high THD amps sounding good, the GR research speakers sounding bad and the poly caps in the klipsch speakers just go to show that perfection in audio sounds like crap. A small amount of imperfection is better!
I am sure that Danny would appreciate a call. He seems to be an amenable man
Hi, regarding the GR Research, If you get the PASS ACA sorted you might want to try with it. It might liven them up to what you were hoping for. If you do give it a shot that way let us know the listening results.
Good Presentation. Recommend ya get the Sound-pressure Curves before ya go to all that Labor -- or don't build it. Klipsch 600 M's have been Upgraded to the 600 MII -- believe they corrected the "Dip" in Curve at the Cross-over Point.
Doesn't change what I think of how they sound to me, YMMV
Hey Skunkie! /waves
Hope your weekend was good
Lookin forward to watchin the vid, wanted to say beforehand how much I enjoyed the record video from last week, I was at a friend house and we would watch you talk about one then right before the next wed pause it and find that album online then listen to a few tracks then to the next one. Think nearly that entire list had is jammin' and thinkin yo this is nice.
Alighty catch ya later!
Glad you enjoyed!
I find the polk audio s20 bookshelf speakers , the way klipsh rates there efficiency is little suspect the polks are just as efficient in my room and just enjoyable for long listening sessions, find them on sale for about 250 a pair.
Great review. I also have desktop mini by GR Research. I agree with you about them being not efficient. But I find them clean sounding and lean with no base. I do not find them dull. They will not fill a whole room but on a desk top they are very good when paired with a sub and when they are on speaker stands and not directly on a desk. Class D amplifier is best and I run them with SMSL AD18. Try using class D amp and get them ear level. Let me know if that improved them. I’m curious about your results.
I have a class D amp I just got I can play with. They didn't sound good IMHO with a tube amp, even a higher power one.
You should try a Jupiter capacitor. Recommended for speaker crossovers.
I really love my Swan 2.2 too. They sound really excellent in my room with a high watt solid state amp. Be sure to read about the recommended Crossover mods for the Swan DIY 3.1s. It seems to be pretty generally recommended. Audio Science Review tested the 3.1 with the mod and they tested very well.
There were mods recommended for the 2.2, then the guy everyone was quoting came back and said "Whoops, the amp I am using for testing has a weird +10db over 7K problem, so ignore my mods. lol
It’s incredible. How when you review something compared to other reviewers they constantly say everything is great and wonderful. Your comparison of the speakers is dead on the trouble is trying to get the truth out of these reviewer’s like you’re telling it is next to impossible. All these reviewers on CZcams are looking for the next free product so they can review it and get their next free product. Just because a speaker may have a very flat frequency. Response does not mean it will sound good to the human ear, that’s been proven years and years ago.
There are many DIY loudspeaker resources available.
Maybe replace the mundorf aluminum in oil with copper foil type or paper in oil type of capacitors. Some claim that caps that work well in electronics may not sound that good in a speaker.
You can try the danny minis with a >50w solid state amp before throwing them away 🤷♂.
I bought a pair of Klipsch R-51M's to test newly built tube amps. I was surprised at how much bass they have. If that was the only speaker I could afford I could be satisfied I think.
For their size, yes they do impress! And add a small powered sub and they will likely be all you need.
Building loudspeakers from scratch requires modeling software, testing equiptment and lots of expirementing with crossover component values.
Love the show skunked looking good girl
If those GR speakers sound "dull", I suggest rechecking how the x-overs are wired up, and perhaps checking the tweeter phase as well. If they're hooked up out of phase, the end result can be a deep null through the x-over range.
I was pretty careful but I will recheck everything.
I watched Danny’s assembly video, at the end of the video he purposely reverses wires on one of the drivers, I forget if it was the tweeter or woofer.
try the kef please!
The 160M uses a non-vented tweeter and has the wedge base. The 600M has a vented tweeter and no wedge base. Other than that there is no difference, they both use the same crossover. Personally I can’t hear any difference but I don’t have a special room, special cables or special hearing to hear the difference. I imagine the wedge does impart some sonic difference because the 160M speakers are tilted up slightly.
Try the Schitt passive E.Q. I believe it will help with tone.
Are you talking about their Loki Mini+, I tried it a couple of years ago and didn't like it, wasn't very transparent. None appear to be "passive"?
@@SkunkieDesignsElectronics same brand but there s new model called the Lokius that is a 6 band EQ. Perhaps the synergy of the amps with the speakers are something to look at too. Thx
The GR sounds like it is more power hungry (it is smaller..) Maybe with your upcoming KT*** Monoblocks they could come to life..
I think the difference between a silk tweeter and a metallic tweeter is the main difference. Not sure there is a way to change that reality with a crossover.
Closed cabinet design speakers are pretty inefficient so perhaps the GR Research bookshelves need a very high damping factor (ie solid state amp) to drive them properly? Also, maybe they work better near field in a desktop computer situation?
Well maybe. I do know they do not play well with tube amps, even 45W PP KT88 ones.
About the capacitors modification of the Klipsch, if the original capacitors were electrolytes bipolar and you changed it to film capacitors thats bad,
Electrolytes capacitors have much higher ESR than film caps and thats changes the original tonality, you should stick to the same type of capacitors as the originals.
I learned this from axiom loudspeakers engineer on his axiom CZcams channel.
No the one cap I changed was an orange drop looking cap, not an eletrolytic.
Not on the Tweeter filter that's only crossed the woofer on the Tweeter is a film cap
Replaced the electrolytics in my used audio note AZ's with film caps. I haven't looked back since. Totally transformed them. When i measured the values of the lytics that I took out they were way, way, off the stated values.
Hello. The link below is for the ribbon tweeter speakers. Could you share the speaker that you showed here? The aqua colored ones? With the soft dome tweeter? Thank you.
Sadly I don't think they are still on the market.
Did you change to a different cartridge with the new TT? Maybe the old cart had a little more mellowing and rhe new one is brighter. I have a grado thats on the warmer side and i think the mundorfs seem tame in the rp600. Ive seen other ppl seemingly have good results w them in separate experiences in looking at cap upgrades for rp600. Might account for the dislike of the rp600 w the new tt.
Could be. And could be some of the different music I have been listening to.
Do the GR Research 600M upgrade to change the signature and tame the top end. He uses sonicaps but he also changes the crossover design slightly to flatten the response as well.
But I've also heard this mod kills the efficiency of these.
@@SkunkieDesignsElectronics I did the change and didn’t notice anything significant with regards to efficiency before and after the upgrade.
The GR research did not play well because you did not use the GR research bindingpost (joke).
HA!
Just a question we’re you using the Desk top Mini in a desk top setting ?
Yes, but sitting on a desk top or a shelf isn't going to change how much bass it does or doesn't have etc.
Yes the not much your going to do about the bass. How dose the desk top setting effect the top end or the dullness? @@SkunkieDesignsElectronics
It's not going to change.
Due to it's high efficiency, I use the RP600M on an 7 watt KT77 amp to backup the Bose 901's on my 48 watt 300b amp. It really sounds great.
The DIY2.2A looks like Dynaudio type drivers.
Several people have said that. They have a huge voice coil too.
Makes me think I got a good pair of drivers/speakers from HiVi Swans for a fraction of the price ;) Love my DIY2.2As ))
On the original Klipsch crossover there is a 9 ohm series resistor going to the capacitor and then on to the Tweeter. The resistor is half of a pad circuit. To reduce parts count they just went with one resistor. The beefy capacitor you put in most likely to have less internal resistance and therefore it has upset the balance. You may want to try adding a 20 Ohm resistor from the 9 ohm / capacitor connection across the ground. That should drop it a DB or two on the tweeter and get calm the edge. Of course you can try different values around the 20 ohm value. Perhaps pretty 15 ohm and one speaker and a 22 ohm the other and listen to which one you like better.
Not that these speakers are worth the trouble however GR research has mod kits...
You bought a pair GR research speakers!!! Why?
On hindsight, I shouldn't have. When someone is trying to sell me "Tube connectors" for $50, I should have known better.
$50 for tube connectors!!! says it all but when someone slags off an andrew jones speaker @@SkunkieDesignsElectronics is very silly person,love what you do,Roger in the UK.
PS, we all don,t trust our own god given ear holes!!!
General question about valve break in.
How much change in sound can expect after break in for preamplifier valves like 12ax7 , 12au7 etc.
Will it be subtle or more than that?
Thanks
After 2-3 hours, any further change is subtle has been my experience.
@@SkunkieDesignsElectronics after 2-3 hours is the change significant relative to the start?
Very, very minor changes after the first 2-3 hours.
Jantzens!
I am thinking about trying them!!
I will just say that your biggest problem, may not be obvious to untrained folks either, is you have your speakers setup in a bay window (alcoves and glass are huge no no's acoustically and is why your getting the results your experiencing.
From a realist perspective if this is your only option then, yes pick the speaker you like best and don't spend (you haven't) more than $400/pr.
Maybe, but I've literally tried ever other option in my room and this sounds the best to my ears. I also tested these same speakers in another room with more "normal" placement and the differences between them were the same.
The problem might be your jumper wire. The wire might be too thin for the woofer circuit.
Maybe if you use Dannys 1000 dollar cable and fancy power cord it would be better ( just joking)
LOL! It's probably due to not buying his tube connectors, that would have made it awesome!
Don't forget to buy one of those boxes of dirt, for a ground, to drain off the excess Vitreous & Resinous Fluids.
Don't forget that the power cable needs 200 hours of burn- in😅
Danny from GR (Grifting Rat) research sells a lot of snake oil. I'm not surprised his overpriced kit doesn't impress you that much.
With your excellent amplifiers I would love to see you step up to a set of vintage Heresy speakers. The simple old crossovers and drivers just work so well together.
All those vintage speakers need a fairly large size room to sound good. I tried some Klipsch Chorus speakers and they do not work in a small space.
I had the original Heresy's and they were so shrill that they could be painful at high volume.