đ§ââïž The Why of Wyman Manderly: ASOIAF Quaranstream
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- Äas pĆidĂĄn 22. 05. 2020
- Continuing in the Quaranstream series, Maester Merry and Clint of the Learned Hands podcast to talk about the secretly maybe most intelligent person in the North, Wyman Manderly. And if he can be trusted to uphold his promise to Davos Seaworth to serve Stannis Baratheon if Rickon Stark is returned from the frightening Skaagos.
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Merry: / maestermerry
Clint: / westeroslaw
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Intro music: Manuel Senfft www.tagirijus.de
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Some truly great analysis, you guys are terrific. Thanks for the introduction to another great channel. Keep up the great work Joe
Wyman has a Skagosi cook. They know all the best cuts for pie.
The pies apparently tasted good, so yeah whoever cooked them knows how to deal with human meat. Yikes.
@@JoeMagician human meat=long pig
Wyman likely needs the return of Shaggydog as a means of identifying Rickon. Be it show or book, nobody remembers Rickon. Not even the north
In naval warfare, a "fleet in being" is a naval force that extends a controlling influence without ever leaving port.
Thanks, I had no idea!
I can't tell if the Manderly fleet has a legitimate military purpose (most other naval powers aren't even thinking about the North) or if it's just soft power projection with the Umbers.
Revenge is a dish best served buttery and flaky
Mmm I would like some pie now
Wyman knows he's lost without a Stark in charge of the North. Himself becoming Lord? All houses will turn on him as a Southerner. Literally any other house becoming Lord: have either an old claim to the Wolf's Den themselves that would escalate sooner or later, or wouldn't mind sacrificing the Manderly's for the loyalty of such houses while not honouring the Stark's old arrangements/not being as reliable for White Harbor by a lot. Think you guys really did a great job analyzing Wyman here! keep it up!
I really hope Wyman survives into TWoW. He's become one of my favourite characters
He is facinating, terrefying but absolutly facinating
@@arianewinter4266 agreed :)
He may or may not but his spirit will live on in Wylis and daughters of Wyman. I hope Wylis becomes a good lord or White Harbour and begins to get over his trauma in Harrenhal.
wait--didn't Hosteen Frey open his throat in ADwD?
Mayhaps Skagos will end up being the Wakanda of Planetos.
You mean an imaginary place where black guys are both primitive and advanced in the same time and live in a dictatorship?
@Pangolinstirfrylungjuicecough just checking :-P
Valyrian steel = Vibranium. Im calling it.
I think Wyman's plan for Rickon backfiring because he doesn't know Rickon paralels Varys' position with Young Griff (having to move things faster in Kings Landing because Young Griff decided to do something Varys hadn't intended him to do); which brings home even further the similarities between Wyman and Varys.
Umber Lumber. Lol! Really enjoyed this conversation. Great job guys!
One of the best Asoiaf podcasts. I watch this time to time. Thanks.
This channel, man.
What the hell is this?
And how the hell did it take me so long to find this? I love your work, Matt, and GREAT guests!!
I just found it last week lol!
clever people talking about something I'm interested in, bliss
â„ïžâ„ïž
great show!
So, quick question (maybe answered in their episode about Robb's will?): I was under the impression that a legitimized bastard's claim always comes after the legitimate children, regardless of age and sex. So, even with Jon being legitimized, he comes after Bran, then Rickon, then Sansa, then Arya. Of course, by being older and more experienced he's the most capable, but for the Northern Lords it shouldn't be so straightforward that he should be the Lord Paramount/King. Sure, Wyman has something specific to win (a marriage, although he loses in influence, comparatively to what would've been with Rickon), but the other Lords could come up with a plethora of reasons not to accept Jon (he's a bastard, he's a sworn brother of the Watch, all the other Stark kids are alive - they know at least that Bran and Rickon are, Sansa is a fugitive, I guess maybe they assume Arya is dead? - he's not as easy to influence as any of the other kids, etc).
Is it going to boil down to who gets to Winterfel first? Who helps the most in freeing Winterfel from the Boltons and Freys?
I assume there's actually going to be a lot of intrigue between the Northern Lords, some loyal to Bran, others to Jon, some to Rickon, depending on the timing of this whole debacle and some to Sansa who probably will bring the knights of the Vale and food with her.
What do you think?
PS - I forgot about the terms of Robb's will. Did he actually stipulated that Jon was to be legitimized and be made Lord of Winterfel and King in the North? or just King in the North? are the inheritance laws the same relating to Kings and to Lords, or are there same differences when it comes to Kingship?
Manderly uses his enemies weapons against them; breaking guest right, fake tarred fake bodies (Davis vs Bran and Rickon Stark)... when old ways are broken, a good man will do evil
Exactly right. He might see himself as an avenger figure, the last guardian of the North kind of thing.
If Rickon will be restored as Lord of Winterfell and liege lord of Manderly, it isn't really up to Manderly to keep his deal with Davos/Stannis. Rickon must choose to swear loyalty as warden of the north to Stannis, or to claim the crown of his brother. After all we know, the Manderlys are super loyal to the Starks and wouldn't rebel against them, if they decide to claim their own kingdom.
Hi, what about Rickons' potential gratitude to Davos? He is a Stark, a powerful greenseer & as far as we know, more than capable of speaking up for others. It could begin a redemption arc for him, no?
Good point, another reason that Wyman may be underestimating Rickon!
Great stream, thanks all!
Loving these dude. Keep fighting the good fight
Great stream! Definitely check out Learned Hands. The guest right episode is hilarious!
this will be my last comment, i promise. Thanks for inviting the two hands of the Learned Hands podcast. I'm checking it right now and it looks great!
I donât think all Wards are the same. The Ned/Robert situation was totally different from Theon. There are many other examples of both types in the books.
Fostering isn't wardship. Minor differences in the experience for said child(hopefully) but very different in feudal social terms. A fostering is a generosity in most cases while taking a child as a ward is more akin to holding a hostage, however on much more polite terms. Example Littlefinger was expelled from his fostering at Riverrun after his botched duel against Brandon Stark, but you wouldn't send away a hostage used for leverage.
As Tyrion would say there is one roach in lord manderly s pudding. The back up execution plan. He mentions that, had he been caught, he would have just produced Davos and blamed his jailers, they confused the prisoners. Cool, the problem is that he also displayed the shortened hands as well, like you guys pointed out. It is one thing to confuse a prisonerâs appearance and another to willing amputate their fingers so as to create a fake. There is no way that would fly with anyone.
Love the content
This was gooooood...
Great !
Yeah, Bran and Menderly could bond beautifuly over their shared experience of consuming other people ^^
I think this shows Manderley is the best poker player in the north and southern lords are more adept at playing the game. Also Manderley understands that the only way to unite the north is with a Stark. Stannis understood this as well. The northern lords dont really care about who is King. They are largely free of the south. They care who rules the north. So if calling Stannis King will bring about what Manderley wants, he will do it imo.
There has been a Fire and Ice Marriage, because House Blackwood is originally a Northern House that was banished by the Starks to the Riverlands, and they worship the old gods.
Man this was a great stream Matt. Love the lawyer aspect, fits perfect with a character like Wyman.. honestly I didn't even notice that he turned down guest right at Winterville because he brought his own food. Mind Blown Wyman really is as smart as he is fat... and that's pretty fucking fat lmao. Also I did gather the whole umber timber scam he had going but I didn't see the fact that he may be playing both umber sides because of it.. you truly are a magician Matt. This is one of my favorite stream to date. Thanks comrade for the content.
CZcams says that comment is not appropriate and is violating CZcams rules.... cause praise and admiration and the use of one curse word is not appropriate and against YT policy...
I think Wyman is being honest in his deal with Davos, but again with a Wyman twist.
He can swear fealty to the King, and yet be more loyal to his liege lord. If The Starks bend the knee to Stannis then Wyman will be happy to do so too and keep his promise. Yet if The Starks go against Stannis the Manderly's can still bend the knee to Stannis, yet refuse Stannis's calls to go against their liege lord (if it ever comes to this, and its bought him more time to calculate his next move while keeping everyone happy till he knows who The Starks are allying with).
As Wyman said, "bring me my Liege Lord and ill swear fealty"
Implying The Starks will be the Manderly's liege, under a Stannis Kingship.
But even with getting Jon to be the lord of Winterfell, haveing Rickon is valueable, to secure Jon goodwill . . .: Look, I have kept your little brother save with me, I saved what little family you have left!
1:24:00
On Davos having to find a new ally to protect him from Wyman
Wouldnât it be just grand of GRRM to have Davos go back to Stannis just as Melisandre burns Shereen and have it backfire (ha!) on Stannis
Do you think the umbers are in white harbor or did they drop off and go home? It would be cool if 100 to 200 umbers were waiting in white harbor for revenge too.
I think manderly is pro Stark, because of their history and he met eddard a couple of times in white harbor. Also Rob trusted him alot. If Davos retrieves rickon, the goal of manderly is achived. Or Rickon goes to him or glover. Or Rickon goes to his heir. Or Rickon goes to Stannis. In all cases Rickon will be lord paramount. Stannis will also hear from Rickon about the help that manderly and glover gave to the cause. The only question i have is: will davos go alone or with some white harbor soldiers?
I believe Wyman has sent Davos alone on his mission. Not risk any of his men being discovered as they try to sneak all the way from White Harbor to Skaagos. There's a lot of miles and enemies between those two places.
Do you guys ever wonder when will the new book launch ??
I donât know if I believe Wyman would kill Davos is he brought Rickon back bc I think Rickon would ultimately come to like Davos possibly but also Davos is operating only good faith unlike the Lannisterâs and Freyâs so heâs certainly capable of killing Davos if he has to especially for his heir to return but if Wylis is back I donât see the reason to kill him but I do agree long term Wyman doesnât intend on keeping his promise just maybe for the short term if at all
Maybe Wyman thinks Stanis will be dead before he needs to swear his allegiance.
Hey!
I think if you lose stab someone you would lose guest right. But the consequences of you stabbing someone is a separate matter.
You lose guest right so I can charge you for your aggression as a separate issue.
(Seperate from guest right. Not the stabby stab)
Or maybe it works more like diplomatic immunity. I don't know much about it. But from tv I suspect it depends on the crime and relationship between countries.
everyone is playing the Game of thrones well Wymen is playing Diplomacy (the strategy board game)
Did Wyman brought all that food in anticipation of feeding Stannis army ?
Robb's heir is unknown. we do not know who he chose. we do know choosing jon is what he wanted but it has yet to be confirmed it Jon Snow was his final choice. also could Manderly have hopes for brandon Stark being alive? knowing that Rickon is on Skagos, and wanting to instill him back in Winterfell as his leige lord seems to help put the north back together. but if Prince Brandon returns, as the older brother he is the last publically known heir to Robb Stark, and heir to Robb's kingdom; that is unless the will becomes public knowledge and the chosen heir is revealed. is he holding out for this possibility of Brandon's return? Davos requiring the wolf with Rickon serves to prove the identity of the Prince as he is so young.
Thrawn!!!!
1:16:40 And he almost ended up dead at the hand of Ser Stuped
Rickon will die in a Davos Chapter in Wow. Probably on Skagos. It's a GRRM thing, he introduced deals with the potential to be highly politically relevant but also to become completely insignificant for the involved characters in the Davos Chapter on the Sisters.
Rickon is not gonna live, we know that he is not a POV to be frank. It makes so much sense for George to make all these plannings around Rickon for other characters we see and just let that crash.
And off topic, I'd love Davos to ask Tormund to join him for the trip to Skagos, I wanna hear him talk about a unicorn ride
Merry has a nice and pleasant face. I like her face. I also like the painting behind Clint, wish I could see the whole thing
I think Manderly's circumventing of the guest's right also shows why everybody is disgusted by the red wedding. Like the Frey's could of done something similar at some point to the Starks, but they chose to explicitly violate guest right.
It seems Wyman is committing the northern tradition of going in the forest to die by going to Winterfell hoping to take as many Boltons and Freys with him. Hope Wylis proves a good lord of White Harbour, he certainly will not have any love for Lannisters, Boltons or Freys, hope he gets his spirit back. He went through much trauma in his improsonment and remembers it all was because of Roose leaving him as backguard. Hope his wife and manderly diet gets him back on his feet for fight with the others.
Wyman also is basically throwing down the glove looking at the rest of the Northern Lords who now will have to pick a side.
Considering most of the loathe the Boltons and have a particular bone to pick with the Freys they'll be eager to jump onto this bandwagon if you ask me.
@@djokealtena2538 aye, Manderlys are a loyal nothern house that are mpre secure and have more cards to play than most of northern houses.
They can be the spark that lights the match..... that lights the Northern houses to rally behind Starks or anyone opposing Boltons or Freys
Wyman is not dealing with Davos with the same spirit as with the Freys and Lanisters. They are disingenuous and power hungry while seeking to harm Manderly, but Davos is "an honest smugler" Manderly is different with him.
1. Or he'll give rickon to littlefinger for his debt scheme littlefinger wants children from all the major houses.
And at white harbor there was 3 ships (from braavos) seeking payment building ships isn't cheap also for all his knights.
He could easyly send rickon to littlefinger and one of his granddaughters betrothed together if anything littlefinger will want them both together for extra hostages/wards.
or littlefinger will demand one of his granddaughters too as extra
2. wyman manderly wanted two positions from robb stark hand of coin and of ships.
3. also there are hints that he didnt cook/kill the freys but gave them to littlefinger as hostages those three freys are related to powerful/important houses . the pie's are alittle bit to easy to see... all the 3 ships need to do is drop the 3 freys of at the fingers then they go with the lords sons to littlefinger in the vale.
4. they're are many theories on the great/grand northern couprcy
5. it looks like its not jon in Robb will but Caitlyn and i think she needs to marry someone in the first book she was wanting another kid she's still young early 30's the three possible husbands is JON SNOW/BRANDON STARTK/robrick cassel strong hints he's from a bastard/junior house of starks the parrels between her and cersei are many marry men they dont like and wanting to protect/doing anything for their kids.
he/catelynr marrying one of them (and having a kid) makes the iron throne keeping sansa worthless they'd need to come to some of treaty if they want any kind of peace.
2 years late to the discussion.... if everything works out and Davos brings Rickon to Wyman instead of Stannis, Wyman could just pass the Lordship to his son (or proclaim Rickon the King of North) and swear fealty to Stannis on the spot so he can be held under house arrest by his friends.
He just needs the dire wolf. No one has any idea what rickon would look like now. But a tame dire wolf says Stark. And people will rally round the wolf. the wolf is the only prove its not some random kid. you could do a fake rickon if you had the wolf.
Well, but here is an issue, I don't think Wyman has any proof of his "Loyalty" to The Starks or to Stanis, he Gave away a piece on the board. Stanis Clearly loves his Smuggler so much as Stanis can love, and "Davos" is dead. So, how, if Wyman is in Winterfell, would he prove to Stanis, that he is his man? If he dies, how are his people supposed to carry out this plan? There is a point, during this fight where Wyman could turn around and fight for Stanis outside the walls of Winterfell, BUT we also know that Stanis is a no nonsense you will pay the price kind of guy. So even if Wyman fights for Stanis, Stanis is going to Execute him, unless Davos returns with Rickon and the Direwolf, Wyman has no way to stop his execution by Stanis. Is he the only one with knowledge of his plan? because if so, his plan dies with him. Wyman's motives are not his best friend's motives, if there is anything this story does well, it's to show the difference in mind set and motives between best friends. What Drives Wyman to not Take power may Drive Glover to give Rickon and his direwolf to Ramsy. I think this is a miscalculation on his part.
if tywin is machiavelli, wyman is otto von bismarck
Sounds like Davos would be smarter to take rickon directly to Stannis
The Lord of the sister Islands said to davos, about hanging the freys after thanking them for delivering a son's bones. So manderly knows he must be patient in order to get away with murdering the freys while still be honorable
These livestreams are great i would love for ya to checkout mine. Any advise would be much appreciated
Now we know, why Manderly is overwaight, so he has more weight to throw around . . .
the Freys are the Mets wannabees that always fail
Fun fact. Gaol is pronounced jail. I don't know why fantasy writers make things difficult for us with ye olde spellings!
Iâm completely unsure as to which is worse. That these nerds are so into it they know all this stuff about Game of Thrones. Or that I actually listen to the show. Iâm thinking in reality both. Grand admiral thong, I think I saw her on only fans a couple days ago