Is It Only To Manipulate Men? (Hint: No)
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- čas přidán 29. 08. 2024
- Jordan Petersen has made the claim that women wear makeup in the workplace in order to sexually manipulate men...let's talk about it.
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Those who know, know. No need to explain.
@@catxtrallways100% agreed. We spent about 45 minutes taking about him (and did on two other episodes as well).
So what's the difference between male coaches and your channel? I mean both are hate groups. One hates women the other hates men.
@@lh137 Jordan Peterson is not “men”. Not all men think that women deserve to be raped. Not all men view women as non-people. Men are not the subject of this video or this channel in general.
If you feel like these videos are directed at you because you relate to the men/boys who are being referenced, that’s on you. If you feel the need to think this pertains to all other men as well, I guess that’s up to you, but it doesn’t change the fact that it isn’t so, and it wouldn’t change who or what you are either way, anyway.
@@reesekarns Damn now I wanna know.
About 70% of the unsolicited opinions I've heard when wearing make up did include something about what men thought and even when I was given the "compliment" that I wore it better than my peers it didn't make me feel better about covering my skin. As a teen I was told that if I didn't wear enough foundation that my face would look gross by so many girls in middle school that I would just cake it on to mask my perceived flaws. The women who raised me worried that if they didn't look their best that strangers would glare at them and be mean to them for "being ugly". Edited to add: it just felt like we couldn't just have a face. We were pitted against each other in a competition we hadn't signed up for and had to unlearn being mean to each other. We were told so often "you're just doing this because you like guys and guys don't actually care", yet they'd make fun of us for liking lipgloss and shimmer shadow. There are articles about 10 year olds shopping at Sephora because they want to look like influencers. Makeup can be fun, but why is it also so brave to not wear it? We should just get to have faces. Edited once more with warmer feelings: Thanks for the Likes and Comments. Please watch the Video this was from. Lots of effort was put into it.
That’s interesting what you were told in regard to wearing too much foundation. Because when I was in highschool in the 60s, we were told constantly that too much of it would lead to deep wrinkles early in life. So most of us didn’t wear much of it (eye makeup was a different story ! lol) . And I don’t know if this has anything to do with it, but I and nearly all my friends were pretty much blemish-free. Also so far I’ve done a lot better than would be expected, considering all the sun I’ve let shine on my face.
@@ruby11 I stopped wearing foundation during college ten years ago because the thought occured to me, "wait... I could sleep in for 15 more minutes if I just stopped doing this part of my morning routine". The sleep helped get rid of the things the make up covered and I had more money for food when I stopped buying foundation. Also, thank you for mentioning your school years. Gave me perspective.
"It just felt like we couldn't just have a face. We should just get to have faces." THIS! SO MUCH THIS!
@@pistachoo. Thank you.
@@myownheroisonlyme5721 exactly, sleep, I’m with you sister!
So I didn't get hired for the job, but I was able to absolutely floor a recruiter one time. At the end of the interview they were going over dress code, and a full face of makeup was required. I inquired as to where on the company website I could sign up for a tutorial on how to apply make-up (as I had never learned), and where I could apply for compensation of said make-up. They asked what I meant, "you just get it yourself", and I said that's fine if they would like me to buy my own work uniform, but I need a source of where to buy it and be reimbursed ~ 💅
That's just straight up discrimination. Not hiring a woman for not wearing makeup when the men aren't required to do so is just discrimination.
"Just get it yourself" sounds more like "We expect you to have it already cause you're *feminine* and we haven't talked to a woman in decades" lol
I would have just not worn make up and said that I was wearing it
Yep they want women to buy their own beauty products and skincare and also get paid less than men and also give birth and take no leave from work for it.
Isn’t this world amazing.
@@hereforthechaos7614
And even when it’s not so overtly required, it feels EXPECTED.
If you tell someone they “aren’t required to wear makeup,” but then look and feel attentive to those who do wear it and offer them both social and monetary benefits, you are STILL forcing the non-wearers to wear it.
I worked with a woman that never wore makeup. We were the only 2 female employees. One day, she wore make up due to a social function she was attending with her husband after work. Every man made a comment on how much better she looked. The GM even said he's glad she finally decided to do something about her appearance! That she finally looked presentable. WTF? The next day, the GM looked very uncomfortable when he saw she was not wearing make up. He lamely claimed he had been joking.
I only ever wore a swipe of taupe eyeshadow to hide the veins in my eyelids. They look a bit freaky!
There are still remnants of a time when women were not hired if they weren’t “easy on the eyes”.
When I stop shaving for week. Nobody says a thing.
If a woman doesn't put on make up ONCE. Everyone thinks she's sick or unwell
Hearing a man say “I’m allowed to not care about it” got damn.
The look on that man's face - he's all ready to mansplain to this woman why women wear makeup, and the woman isn't having it.
Am I right in deducing you are lucky enough not to know who "that man" is? Because you are spot on on his habits anyway 😄
@@Snowshowslow
Woman: asks a question.
Man: Answers.
Woman: you are mansplaining!
Maybe he should actually mansplain, because I've seen several interviews where the women completely misses the points he is making and just makes up an argument that he didn't use, just to give the illusion that he said something misogynist
If we don't wear make-up .....we're not making an effort, if we do wear make-up ....we're trying to "trick" someone.
My idea of make-up these days...brow gel, clear mascara and tinted lip balm and only if Im going outside my house, lol.
I'm also married and to a partner with face blindness so wearing it or not is purely for my own amusement.
As young women in the 90's we were told, "heavy make-up makes you look like a whore", yet we're required to wear it. Just not like that.
The few times I didn't wear make-up, I was repeatedly asked if I was sick and what was wrong. I was told I looked upset and tired by the research scientist I apprenticed under. Two of my peers commented on my dark circles (which are genetic). One accepted my explanation that they were genetic and just uncovered by make-up, but the other didn´t and actually gestured towards them with his finger and giggled at my response. He was the same guy who told my peer that she was sick because she had a pimple. We both had to explain to him that acne is bacteria that has formed under the skin and not from a virus. He said in his culture a red spot on the face means you are sick or about to get sick. At a conference, my chair pointed at the length of my sleeves because my blazer sleeves were shorter than my blouse sleeves. He looked at me oddly and I just explained that I knew the jacket didn´t match, but I was cold. People notice if I don´t wear makeup or make a fashion mistake and they comment. Imagine all the people who didn´t comment but criticized in their heads. Then, I am gaslit and told that it´s all in my head and no one is looking at me and no one cares what I look like. It´s the gaslighting that really infuriates me. Thank you for this video because sometimes I feel like I am losing my mind.
Unless you're paying someone a compliment or know them well enough to point out that they have toothpaste on their nose, or something, you should never make personal comments. So unbelievably rude!
I have hereditary dark circles also. I wear makeup to cover them. But I also wear make because the world treats me better when I do.
I only wear makeup because if I don't, I look anemic because I'm very pale. Years ago, my cousin was visiting and saw me in the morning, and said I looked like a vampire or zombie without makeup on. So I understand the judgement.
I stopped wearing makeup at 35 last year and it's been hard to have people ask you if you're tired so often at first. I still don't fully love the way I look in photos because I feel like I look off but it's been so freeing to just have a skincare routine that's about the health of my skin and not how I look to others. It was a hard thing to lean into though because of how long it took for people to get used to my face and I only ever wore mascara and eyeliner, so not even a full face.
@@marlydif even the person herself needs time to get used to her own bare face, one can understand how others also need time to get used to it.
I don't wear make up daily, and I never had the problem of people telling me I look tired (except when I actually am) because I never got them used to my face with make up.
I'm thankful to my mother for not introducing me to make up early and letting me get used to my face.
I'm happy you are benefiting from your new routine
I never wore makeup until my first professional job out of college when my boss told me I'd never be taken seriously because I looked too young and dressed too casually. He told me I needed to start wearing makeup and get some suits (which I couldn't afford), or I was just going to be ignored everywhere I went. I think he thought he was honestly helping. Meanwhile women at work told me that being engaged was going to hinder my career as well. Took me 25 years of hard work to get to a place where I can just be me--but after all that, now I need to figure out who I actually am. You can't win.
As a woman who never wears make-up I feel I have found a profession where no one cares (metal work) and I'm wholly blessed by this.
That’s so cool! I work in a hospital so I don’t need to worry about makeup either, or dressing up since we wear scrubs and sneakers or crocs. I really admire female tradeworkers!
so, my sister-in-law, while training to become a vet had an instructor pull all the women aside and told them they had to wear make-up to be professional. The years of study meant nothing if you weren't trying to look pretty >:(
That happened to me in med school. When I commented about ok, first, male colleagues are frowned upon for wearing makeup. And now my makeup is more important than responding to an emergency? I get not looking like a homless bum, and looking clean, presentable, being appropritately attired. I asked the dean what is dresscode policy regarding makeup. The discussion stopped.
The whole thing is extra crazy when you consider that make-up flakes off throughout the day. All that effort making things clean and sanitary and then society requires female medical professionals to bring in extra potential contaminants. Good on you shutting that conversation down.@@rebeccacrockett8334
I don't wear makeup, but I read a post from someone who's part of the MUA community and what she said stuck with me. "Wear make up for men? Why would I do that? I didn't spend $75 on foundation to impress someone who can't tell MAC from Covergirl! I wear makeup to flex on other women who also wear makeup! Men don't know what they're looking at!" That, I respect. Wearing make up for men is like playing guitar solos to deaf people.
So true. I have been paying *so* much more attention to makeup, shoes, and fashion since I started transitioning. When those weren't things I was wearing myself, I was mostly oblivious to them.
But deaf people can feel the vibrations of the music and appreciate it, just in a different way.
I don't usually wear makeup and when I do, it's not much at all. The guy I'm seeing said something to another person about how he didn't like it when women wore makeup and that he was glad I didn't. It was on a day when I was actually wearing some.
So I laughed and pointed out everything that was on my "no makeup" face. He then told me I didn't need it, to which I countered that he couldn't even TELL if I had it on or not, so I didn't care. I wear it when I feel like it, not for approval from others.
And you've just proven that men don't know anything about makeup, proving my point. Good job. (Also, music is one thing. I've never met a deaf person who cared for guitar solos. They're not the part of music deaf people can appreciate.) All you're doing is trying to justify your need to meet social expectations. @@kristinekochanski4136
All that and you still can't refute the argument women wear makeup for men. Wake up ladies, you aren't talking to your kids who you can convince of anything, you're talking to adults who have lived in the same world as you and know how it goes
Maybe YOU wear makeup for men, but women who are serious about makeup don't. There's a large difference between low self esteem and artistry. It's like the difference between women who do pole dancing as a sport and strippers. The sport people hardly ever do it in front of men, strippers do it for cash.@@chaitanyagupta6668
JP has: a hair transplant, fake teeth, possibly a fake tan, absolutely wears make-up on camera, wears tailored suits... wears a tuxedo to a podcast.
He's a big fan of gender affirming care.
He knows nothing about women.
@pattyofurniture sarcasm?? Cause, no he is not.
@@FromTheHealingWellSomatics no. I just know what gender affirming care is.
@@pattyofurniture your comment shows that you know how to look for arguments, not support real gender-affirming care.
This was actually the thing that had me hate Jordan Petersen from the get-go ... the very first talk I heard him give he made this claim ... that women wear makeup to sexually manipulate men. Which is the most insane preposterous incel thing to say. My husband at the time thought he may have a point. So I posited to him: I wear makeup every time I see my parents ... you think I'm trying to sexually manipulate my parents??? NO. It's because my mother is always looking for any reason to criticize me and wearing makeup lessens the likelihood of her deciding to pick on my appearance.
My sister is an OBGYN ... she's a DOCTOR ... and if she doesn't wear makeup to work EVERYONE tells her that she looks tired. EVEN HER PATIENTS ..... WHO ARE ALL FEMALE. So she has relented ... she just wears the damn makeup to keep from getting comments.
That's mostly why women wear makeup now I think ... it's not about looking pretty anymore ... it's about avoiding negative commentary from the people around us.
If women were sexually manipulating men, a whole big bunch of us would be sending unmistakable Hell No signals.
They will go to any length to excuse men’s poor behavior. Imagine claiming that men are of such low self agency that they’re sexually manipulated by blush. We exist with our whole bodies and hair and faces, but if you dab concealer under your eye, that just pushes them over the edge. Horse crap. It’s like they were told not to harass women at work and their defense was well she was wearing lipgloss and a nice shirt, I was powerless. But will also claim they’re the natural leaders…🙄
Damn, maybe I should wear makeup so everyone will stop telling me "Are you okay? You look black."
Stop caving to pressure and calling it femininity.
He is insane unfortunately
@@cfri9332 I agree with wearing make up to please other people. Wore make up on my facial birthmark, most of the time, years ago. Fed up i was me to feel I had to wear it to just go out the door and do what I wanted. Fed up worrying about my face and what other people think. When I do wear make up is for me, not other people. Always laugh when people think I have put my make up on, think I must have a boyfriend. That would be the only reason I would put on make up on. I've had some really mean comments, people don't think about the person behind the face and their feelings. These people are not worth knowing.
I wore makeup in high school for only 1 year. One day, a popular girl came to school and got hounded for looking sick. She snapped back that she didnt put on her face that morning. I was in the restroom washing my hands when she was at the mirror fiddling with makeup. Later that day i noticed her looking her "normal" self and thought about what a facade it was. I have never worn makeup from that day forward. On my wedding day, i used a swipe of mascara and lipstick. Nothing more. I am 53 and am not ashamed to go in public au naturale, even at work or to job interviews. My motto in life is that i want people to know about me is... what you see is what you get.
You’re so lucky. I’ve had acne for 20 years so far, so going out barefaced is a continual test of confidence that I rarely have the emotional bandwidth to deal with. Bright red patches and spots… it’s So much easier to put on some makeup and just get on with the day.
@@reckonerwheel5336 You may benefit from daily use of zinc oxide sun screen, its functional as a foundation without any tint if you rub it in well enough and you can dab more of it to spots to hide breakouts. The great thing is that technically you are still bare faced, just sun protected and curing your acne at the same time. Just gotta get used to looking a bit more pale unless you powder on a skin friendly powder from brands like clinique or bare minerals
This is true. When I worked as a restaurant manager, the mask was an essential part of the uniform.
The ONLY time I wasn't judged harshly for wearing plain-face to work was the week after I was in a car wreck and my face was too bruised and swollen to bother with the paint job....
Same when I worked retail. I experimented a bit and found my success at the stupid required upselling depended on makeup levels. Specifically, the more eyeliner, the better I did all around, but it made women more amenable - and nicer in general - than men.
I was literally detained in Bahrain under suspicion of being an undercover journalist during a crackdown on the same, and when my sponsor picked me up he quipped, in front of my teammates, 'well of course they did, look you at you! Dressed in hiking cloths, no makeup, hair not styled and pulled back; if you didn't looked WORKED then you wouldn't fit the profile!" I was wearing makeup, but just foundation; apparently it didnt count.
Our staff code of conduct, at an ALL GIRLS school (promoting the 'empowerment & excellence of young women') included "Women must wear make-up." Iinternalised sexism at it's best.🤔🤔🤔
Also, so generic and unhelpful! I wear eyeliner and mascara to work every day, but I don't do a full face of makeup really ever- outside of when i'm doing a costume. What does it mean to wear makeup to the required degree? How many products are expected, and how much? How extreme does it have to be - can I get by with a colored lip gloss or do I need an all-day wear lipstick? They're gonna have to explain it to me, like I'm a grade schooler.
Anyway, yeah, that's some high grade internalized sexism. >:(
I wear eyeliner because I look less stoned and because I think it makes my scowl more evident when I'm asked to smile
I think there are also regional expectations of makeup for women. Growing up in the south, there was always an expectation to wear makeup. Once I moved to Alaska, it’s just not as expected up here. It’s been a huge relief.
My friends in the South say they really are expected to wear a full face, ie foundation. I don't experience that where I am.
I (AFAB) have a doctorate in chemical engineering. When I was in grad school, I would sometimes have male students arguing with me about how to approach a problem when I would TA for a lab. I would basically have to take the textbook and point because they didn't believe what I was telling them. They didn't do this to my male colleagues.
Yep, that happens in EVERY field of work. You can even see it here in the CZcams comments or other social media. When men believe they are speaking to another man, any statements are respected and taken at face value. If a man disagrees, it is done respectfully.
If they believe they are speaking to a woman, they become combative and start hectoring by repeatedly commenting with insults or moving the goal post. It's as if they turned into vampyres when interacting with women.
I can immediately tell when a man believes I am male when they don't know my sex.
@@kdphotos4691 this has happened to me too. When I later (in the chat) point out I'm female... they seem embarrassed.
I have had similar experiences as a female uni lecturer.
@@kdphotos4691 Maybe they don't accept it as trustworthy and inherently valuable. Maybe they are just too scared to speak up to other men. Insecurity is an ugly thing.
@@cfri9332 - It is naïve to assume that everything a man says is inherently "trustworthy and valuable" when most of it isn't. Men will believe lies from men's mouths because they're men. They will disbelieve truths from women's mouths because they're women.
It's irrational behaviour to treat people with contempt or become combative because of their sex.
I've seen it too many times and so have other women.
So I'm not always told I look tired.
Honestly though. Heh sometimes I resort to straight up responding with, "Thanks I didn't put makeup on today."
@@michelles1250 I feel ya. "yeah I'm not wearing eyeliner." It's as simple as that.
That moment when someone’s like oh, are you tired today? And you’re like, “No a actually I was feeling really good and awake today. I’m just not wearing makeup because my bathroom lighting tricked me into thinking I was looking naturally refreshed and beautiful so that’s actually just my real face you’re talking about…”
You can't be upset for people noticing you look different if you got them used to your face with make up. That's the standard you crested for yourself. And people taking the time to worry about your well-being is a good thing.
@@auricia201 yeah, I get that, it’s kind of a sucky feeling though. I actually hardly wear any make up at all, just enough to look a little more refreshed. I can’t imagine the girls who wear a full face of make up and then they try doing the thing that everyone wants them to, to just be natural and carefree and then they immediately get shot down by someone’s judgment of what their actual face. And it just perpetuates this cycle that they feel like they can’t break out of, the cycle of consumerism built on the belief that women have to look like everyone they see on the screens we are surrounded with.
I would never comment on someone looking tired whether they literally looked like they just pulled the worst all nighter of their life or not. If I was really concerned, I’d be like. “Hey how have you been doing?” And if a person had a rough night they’ll probably be like, “Oh you won’t believe, the baby is teething and was up all night.” It’s really just kind of like how we’re not supposed to ask people if we’re pregnant because if they’re just super bloated, then that’s going to make them feel bad. And we don’t ask a women how old they are. I also don’t ask women if they are going to have a baby after they just got married because I don’t know whether they’re struggling with infertility or not and that could actually be really hurtful to them. It’s just polite to not remark on someone’s appearance, chances are they already know what they look like, and by pointing out whatever stands out to us we are probably pointing out some thing that they are already embarrassed about.
Like I live in a really small town and I would love to have really cool styles that people in the city wear but I’ve literally heard so many people make comments on anybody’s outfit that isn’t just a T-shirt and jeans, being like, “Wow that’s a bold choice. Spikes on her boots? Weird.” Like I love where I live, but you seriously can’t even wear ripped jeans in my town without someone saying something. A lot of people will just comment on anything, when it’s really not necessary or helpful. Unless it’s to make someone’s day better or to lift someone’s spirits there’s usually no need to comment on it unless they are somehow harming others.
@@AlauraJones I understand some comments might be upsetting to hear. But again, it's really not the other person's fault. Like you said "I wear make up to look refreshed". So, if you don't use it, you will look less refreshed 🤷🏻♀️
It's easy to say "society's standards make women's life harder", but really, who is creating those standards? And perpetuating them? It's women. Most trends are created by women, most men don't even know which beauty trends are trending. And no one is forcing women to follow the trends. The fault is whoever chooses to follow them.
I agree that it is a vicious cycle, but it begins when a girl decides to start wearing make up, and no one is preventing anyone to stop.
Of course there are things that shouldn't be said out loud, but asking a woman's age or saying "you look tired" has no problem at all. It's only problematic to someone that thinks being old is bad, or someone who gives too much importance to looks. Chances are, the ones who ask that are the ones that have their values in the right place.
@@auricia201 Yes everything you’ve said is true and I agree with all your sentiments. If we are wanting people to break free from the grips of culture and consumerism though, pointing out things people are told are flaws from nearly every outside source isn’t going to make them feel comfortable enough to break the mold, it’s going to keep them trapped in it, and confirm their fears about the things that they were already self-conscious about. We can’t say that just because the culture is wrong that it shouldn’t have an affect on people. It’s how humans are wired, and now it’s is more prevalent than ever. Before culture was prevalent because if a person didn’t follow the status quo they could be in danger, now culture is so prevalent because everybody has access to it, and it’s bright, shiny and flashing, trying to sell stuff by pointing out the things that are wrong in our life and the source of it all fits right in the palm of our hands. Its to the point that no one can keep up with the trends, not even women.
In an ideal world, we would have a wholesome society where we are able to ask each other about appearances it would never be offensive or hurtful. But it’s never been that way, because there will always be an ideal standard of beauty, and thus anything that doesn’t match that’s ideal standard will be thought of as a “flaw.”
It reminds me of how my dad used to tell me that he always liked when I hung around because everybody else treated him like he was an old man, but I always treated him like we were the exact same age whenever I came to visit. He always said that as soon as I walked in the door, he could feel himself getting younger, and when other people walked in the door he could feel himself turning into an old man again. And the other day in church I told a woman, “Oh don’t even worry about it, my sisters and I are always telling people that 50 is totally the new 30 nowadays.” And she looked at me funny for a second, but then lit up, and I could tell she would be thinking about that all week. And when my boss came into work not wearing any make up, I literally could not stop telling her how amazing she looked because she had this whole other kind of beauty without her purple eyeshadow (which I adored) and mascara. I was like, “You like so fresh!” And she replied, kind of embarrassed, “Oh yeah, I didn’t have time to put any make up on.” And I’m like ‘Wow, it totally suits you. Honestly, you look so good this way too!” And she was kind of taken aback, but when she went to go help a customer, I could tell she wasn’t embarrassed anymore, and she was just beaming.
At the end of the day, who will be more likely to be proud of their age and feel youthful in their own skin instead of self conscious? And who will be more encouraged to go against the grain and wear a bare face out for the second day in a row? The person who repeatedly got asked all day if they were tired, or the person who was encouraged by all the people around them saying, Wow, your face looks so fresh today! Are you doing something different?
@@AlauraJones of course, compliments are a good idea, and a good tool to help people make positive changes. But they have to be sincere, and for people that are So into those beauty standards, they probably won't actually think a person looks good without make up. For those, I agree it's better for them to say nothing at all, because they would be the ones pointing out how tired (in an ugly way) you look.
But, that same comment can come from someone that really isn't trying to point out you are "ugly", they may be genuinely concerned, and not understand the struggle of going make up free.
Context and motive is everything. We can't demonize a sentence/question, especially if, as you said, in an ideal world, we should be able to talk about these things without worry that it will have a negative connotation.
I compare it to asking someone that looks like a foreigner where they are from. For me, it was a shock to find out that some people found it offensive, because it was implying that they shouldn't be in the country they are in. It never crossed my mind because I always got along with people from different races/nationalities, and we talked freely about each other's cultures.
Since learning that, of course I am cautious about asking it, but it still is not a wrong question, and in a world without racism, that would be totally fine to ask.
The first time I didn't wear makeup to work:
"Are you okay?"
"You look terrible."
"Are you sick?"
"You look so tired."
😐
The good version is that they noticed you looked different but couldn't really pinpoint it, so they guessed.
I'm hoping that's what it is, at least.
I never wear make-up to work. Never did. So I don't get those comments. I never mastered the art of applying make-up without looking like a clown. So I'm just the middle-age frumpy gal that is doing the job.
But I might be the one telling you "Are you ok? You look tired." the first time you come to work without make-up because it does change the appearance of someone and can glow them up when make-up is correctly applied. After a couple of days of seeing you without makeup tho, I'll get use to your new normal and won't comment on it.
But maybe a live in a small part of the world that is a little off the paved road of "image is everything".
I had a manager who tried to demand that all the women wear makeup.
😮 wow. Sounds very Korean!
I taught college English for years and actually found that, when I started there and still dressed really well, my colleagues looked down on me. I was young (in my early 30s) and I looked even younger. I exercised a lot so I had a slim, fit body. I am quite feminine in my mannerisms and, I suppose, at the time, was conventionally attractive, whatever that means. And I've always enjoyed dressing well. All of these things very much worked against me. I was assumed stupid, vain, immature, frivolous, overly sexual, etc. This is another kind of struggle women face re our appearance, especially in academia. I quickly learned to dress down, just jeans and a t-shirt and simple earrings, simple hairstyle. (Of course, there was also that whole semester when I had to wear cardigans - in summer - to keep that one student from staring at my chest constantly. He failed the course, contested his grade, and then stared at my chest throughout our meeting with the female chair.)
But the overall lesson remains the same: Women must think about how we look, the possible blowback for it, and make our choices carefully. Men have the incredible privilege of not having to think about what they look like. They wear their disinterest in their appearance like it's a virtue, and call women vain for the care we must take with our appearance.
Spot on! We’re constantly being judged on our appearance, and when we try to improve our appearance, we’re called vain. If we don’t try, we’re called lazy. Women can’t win for losing, the system is designed to keep us oppressed.
True. It's difficult to be taken seriously as a young, attractive woman. It's the Cassandra complex, no matter how good you are at your job, no one will listen to you as you are "just a woman".
makeup in society is "normalized" to a point of expectation.
so its a ridiculous argument that its supposedly to somehow trick men when its the same guys who then turn around and be rude when someone is not wearing makeup.
its a double standard.
We had one faculty member who never wore makeup come in with full makeup on one day. It was a little startling at first sight. Of course none of us had ever seen him wear a dress before that day either. Yup, that was the day they just decided they were coming out to all of us. Looked great!
This is worse for women of colour. I'm a mixed race woman who grew up in a mostly white community. I'd go shopping with my white friends as a teen. They'd have their hair in a mess, wearing sweats or pajama pants, plain t-shirts, no make up. They'd get treated well wherever we went. I'd wear the same thing and get treated like a shoplifter, followed around the store or denied help.
Being young, it took me a while to figure out why I was treated differently than my friends. In my idealistic mind, I think I was in denial and hoping it wasn't because of my ethnicity.
When I moved somewhere more diverse and met more people of colour, I heard their perspectives and realized they were similar to mine. It just highlighted what an unfair place the world is due to something so superficial. At the same time, that solidified in my mind that I can't live for other's opinions and approval because, many times, they are usually based on ignorant, shallow reasons...based on assumptions, not on fact.
Someone looking a certain way says nothing about their character, personality or actual mental state. No one can choose their appearance so why does society put so much weight on it.
A few years back, CNN did a special called “The First Time I Realized I Was Black”. A bunch of different people telling stories like yours. As a White person, this opened my eyes to everyday nuances that I’ve never experienced.
The messy bun is normal but the pineapple gets side eye
@@dragletsofmakara1120 thanks for mentioning that program. I haven't seen it but it's good that it's talked about more now. When I was growing up in the 80s and 90s, it was something I had to keep to myself. Since it wasn't talked about, many people just stayed in a state of ignorance and denial.
@@RSVera sweats were "athletic cheerleader" for some but "homeless shoplifter" for others like myself despite the fact we were all from the same neighbourhood and all middle class.
@@coolbreeze5683 homeless shoplifter everyday where I live and work. Doesn't matter what I wear.
And on the flip side, if men want to wear makeup, they should be able to without rude comments. My husband likes makeup, but can’t wear it to work, or he will be seen as unprofessional. It’s ridiculous. Why can’t we just let people be who they want to be so long as they aren’t hurting anyone else.
I had my 4th graders ask why I didn't wear makeup. I haven't worn makeup my entire adult life and wasn't about to start if my job didn't require it, but it was still disconcerting to hear from my students. Though to be fair, every other female teacher they had wore it so, valid question. And I can't blame them; it was the sort of school that had uniforms.
I'm much happier teaching math to high schoolers at a school that doesn't care how I look as long as I'm clean and kempt though.
If you want to know who holds the provilege in a society, look at how people are allowed to show up in public without flack.
And this is why I started being open about being gender nonconforming, bc I should not have to put any more effort into my appearance than the men at work. I'm very secure in my field and I STILL have to reassure myself that I don't have to do the hair, makeup & cute clothes that I hate, or do a bunch of premptive explanations about my gender, to avoid unwanted comments & judgment. It takes a lot of energy & bravery for a afab person to walk out of the house with no makeup or hair products every day.
Plus, even if a woman is wearing makeup for attention, that doesn't justify harassment or any boundaries being crossed.
I'm 43, and I've rarely worn makeup. I don't like how it feels on my face, and I have better things to do with my time. I'm always clean and groomed, and I seem to get away with that. In fact, the only person who has ever recommended I wear makeup is my 'well-meaning' mother-in-law, who suggested I wasn't making enough effort for my husband. I pointed out that:
a) no one expects him to jump through aesthetic hoops for me;
b) he really likes my face as it is; and, most importantly,
c) he respects how I choose to present my face to the world.
Women who like wearing makeup should absolutely feel free to wear makeup without being judged as fake, shallow or manipulative (FFS). Likewise, the idea that women ought to wear makeup because they're obliged to look pretty for others can frankly go die.
it used to be a social expectation for men to wear makeup (and women ONLY wore it - at least, visible makeup - if they were either an actress or some sort of prostitute... and at the time, most considered them the same thing.)
I'm not sure WHY makeup stopped being even socially acceptable for men, let alone something that causes a LOT of issue. There's a gap in history, where that flip happened (from men wearing to women wearing) I should go investigate... unless anyone here knows/ can point at where i should read up?
I wish I could give you the name of the CZcamsr I'm thinking of, but my stupid migraines stole that memory. There's a British (at least, that's how I remember her accent) CZcamsr who talks about fashions from around the Elizabethan era to the Victorian era; she's almost certainly done more, but that's mostly what I saw when browsing for interesting videos. She goes into the history of each piece, explains _how_ each was worn, and the _reasons_ each piece was worn. I'd bet that she--or someone very much like her--has videos on why certain fashions migrated from men to women. (There have been a couple of videos where she even talked about things like bedding, and how/why beds were made the way they were.)
I also find it fascinating that so many fashions started with men, but are now socially taboo for them. We humans are strange creatures.
Oh, since you're interested in this flavor of history, you might also like watching the CZcamsr who finds recipes that are hundreds of years old, cooks them using a combination of historical and modern techniques, and explains the foods' context in history and location. He goes through the origin of the dishes, talks about the more esoteric ingredients, and explains the sources where he finds the recipes. It's incredibly entertaining!
I hope I gave you enough info to run a search or two and find the people who can answer your questions. I wish I could bookmark this comment to come back to if I stumble across the names of these two CZcamsrs. They're worth the effort to find. 💙
So, CZcams doesn't notify me anymore about comments? I had NO CLUE I got a reply, I'm sorry!
You have indeed given me enough contextual clues I should be able to find the CZcamsrs you mean (and I bet I already follow the food guy - just don't watch a LOT, because I'm less interested in food than makeup. I never wear makeup anymore, but I still love it. Just don't have ANY reason, and doing it for fun is...a lot of work, given my disability, so)
I do know that finding the type of historical dress essayist will be easy, because I follow several. But they none of them have talked about makeup (except the one who did a BRIEF foray into some Roman dress and fashion choices. Which mostly consisted of "and this was poison, and this was poison, and this WASN'T poison but was gross or unsafe for other reasons, and this was poison... it was hilarious, but not helpful lol)
Still, I think you might have narrowed the time period I need to look into, and I'll ask a few of they have recommendations. I appreciate you taking the time to think about it and reply to me 🥰
Also - migraines are the WORST I hope you've recovered. I'm lucky I only have a few a year. I send GoodThoughts(tm)!
I want to live in that era! Haha. Let them men suffer and let us women be free from sticky substances on our faces :D
I don't wear makeup because i don't care about the negative feedback. And i wear a mask at work anyway. And since covid, i can wear a mask anywhere i go. It's awesome.
I am not even talking about work….. I have to tell my mom, “I don’t OWE the world makeup!”
I havent worn makeup since Covid, and I dont use filters in my photos. If I had a dollar for everytime someone commented on how old, wrinkled, and used up I am and how no man would ever be attracted to me, Id be a millionaire. Im 45 years old. This is what Im supposed to look like. 😂
Edit: Im also quite annoyed with the opposite comments when I do feel like wearing make-up one random day: "Oh wow! You did your hair and makeup you MUST have a date or something!"
🤨
Nope, just felt like looking nice today.
I think those particular type of men don't understand that ... the unreasonably high standards of adult content and beauty magazines and stuff just fade away when you're actually intimate with someone.
Yes. Those "wow you did your makeup today" comments are almost worse than shaming an adult woman for looking her age. Can't people just, you know, not comment on others' appearance when nobody asked them?
I was 14 years old when I was told by my own mother that if I wanted to work( age to work in NJ is 14) I had to learn to wear make up bc if I didn't there was no chance of me finding a job... I'm a cook now. I don't wear make up I hide in the kitchen and I'm as happy as I can be but even now I still have to wear make up for interviews amd such
If society demands women to wear make, we should get paid more. Beauty products are expensive and while wearing make up in cold wearher is ok, try wearing make up in hot weather is challenging because you sweat it off.
And to add to your point, when you sweat it off it also gets into the pores, which for a lot of people mean break outs, which in turn means buying extra products to deal with that. And then if you have the audacity to complain about it, the men around you just offhandedly dismiss it, like, "nobody's forcing you, so just don't". Urgh.
We should be able to write-it-off it as a tax deductible business expense!
My addendum is: State in the job description that "Looking Pretty" is actually one of the duties.
Wow. I never thought of that. When I was younger I didn't step foot outside the house without wearing makeup, not because I was hoping to find a man, but because I was afraid of what society might think of me if I didn't. Then, about 30 years ago, I started working in the semiconductor business, in "clean rooms" where you can not wear any type of makeup. It was so strange feeling at first. But I got use to it. I wouldn't wear makeup at work but I still wore makeup outside of work. Now that I am almost 70 I could care less about what society thinks of me. Sometimes I don't even iron my shirt before I go to the grocery store. 😂
Not iron! You rebel! Keep going! ❤
@@miwawilliams1339how dare you, stole the comment i was going to write :D
Peterson is unempathetic and unimaginative. That's why he gets most of things worng
That's why I don't like JP, he does a lot of wishful thinking and projecting his own desires. Women don't actually need make up to impress men, most men won't even notice, but we need it to look "presentable" for jobs.
This happens on late night talk shows as well. Adam Sandler or Jonah Hill will go into one of these talk shows to promote a film dressed like they just grabbed something out of the hamper, meanwhile a female co-star from the same film sits next to them in the SAME interview dressed to the nines!
I bet Adam Sandler and Jonah Hill wouldn't dare got on TV without make-up though, not when they know the host will be wearing a full face of it!
I went to grad school in the US, and the university was trying to hire more professors in my field. Candidates would give a presentation as part of the interviewing process.
The only female professor was barely seen outside of those times and always wore dresses or skirts. This is not the best idea around most Chemistry work, but I found out why on the day a female candidate gave her own presentation. The material was interesting, the delivery was five-stars... but professors who had been on the edge of their chairs while she explained voted her down for _wearing a pantsuit_
I have a family member who's about to finish their PhD, and they've actually told me that getting hired as a female professor can be really hard. If you're in your 20's or early 30s they don't to hire you for tenure-track positions because they assume you're to take time off when you have kids, and they don't want to deal with that.
So a lot of women in that position will hold off doing their PhD until later, or they'll have kids while they're getting their PhD, cause I guess it looks better if you already have kids.
The first clip makes an excellent point. All the bros who worship Jordan Peterson are getting such a one-sided point of view that is so often so misinformed or oblivious.
I had a big awakening in college about how people perceived me and my makeup. I used to NEVER let anyone see me without makeup. At 20, between Freshman and Sophomore year, I had a major maxillofacial surgery that also made me conventionally attractive for the first time in my life, and I was exploring that new identity that had always been inside but was absolutely blossoming, even though, to my shock, my life had not been made perfect.
I always dressed “up” and was famous for always being the most put-together. I lived off-campus by myself for sophomore-senior years. I never set foot outside without some makeup on. (This was 2000-2003, btw.)
One night, my best guy friend slept over at my place. The next morning, as I was coming out of the bathroom, he jumped out from around the corner and took a picture of me. Specifically to get a picture to show everyone what I looked like without makeup. At the time I laughed, and it didn’t bother me too much. We joked that he was just trying to get evidence that he’d had sex with me, even though hadn’t. But he specifically said it was to get a pic of me without makeup.
Looking back, I think, hey, that was NOT NICE. That was a weird thing to do!
Later, when I was housesitting at a place with a pool and had friends over (encouraged) I had just stepped inside to get something when my ex ALSO took a surprise photo of me, this time, without explaining, but the rest of us assumed it was because I was in a bikini. THAT was weird too. Wtf guys. I’m so glad I am not in college now, when everyone takes pictures and videos constantly.
If I wanted to leave work early I would just go there without make up. By noon time enough people would have told me that I looked tired, so when I asked my boss if I could go home early because I didn’t feel well they would totally believe me
Yes and if makeup is “art”, why aren’t men socially expected to wear it? Some employers would find all sorts of unfathomable reasons to fire a man for wearing makeup and they obviously wouldn’t say it was because he wore makeup. They would find some other reason to do it, but they would get rid of him.
We’ve been taught that some of the greatest artists in history were men.. so why don’t they wear it?
Oh- I forgot the cost (an average of $200,000 a lifetime if the average price of makeup you buy is $8 a product), time (28,900 hours, aka 481 days if it takes you 15-20 minutes to apply makeup plus 72 days of shaving if the average shaving session is 10 minutes), and effort needed to apply makeup…
No wonder men who share a woman’s lifestyle are called sissies and pussies by other males.
Men have set up society and social norms in such a way that our social gender is the worst insult, a spectacle.
I love wearing makeup. I enjoy blending colors together. It's a peaceful and calming routine I enjoy. But it's something I do for me, when I have the time too, when I want to. Anyone who gives me grief for that in any degree is a mf. Makeup should be a tool for empowerment and enjoyment and even comfort but nothing negative, ever.
I know what you mean. I was a young female lecturer at University for a couple of years... always your A-game or you're out
Bro you got me cryin like a baby. I have dealt with this for years. I do not have a career or even a job bc of having to deal with this for so long. I am physically disabled which controls every aspect of my life. I can't wear normal shoes bc i don't walk normally and i can barely stand up which leads to my weight issues. I tried so hard to fit it and dress appropriately. I couldn't explain to anyone why or how or what. And i had so many problems trying to any type of makeup that i quit. Thank you so much for talking about these problems.
I wear make up because people treat me better when I do. It's also why I wear nice clothes and do my hair. If I don't take the time to do that, especially in a professional environment, I get told I look tired. I get asked if I'm sick. I get pulled aside by management and told my frizzy hair is "unprofessional". I've been on this earth long enough now to be able to say, definitively, that even complete strangers treat me more kindly if I at least cover my dark circles, decrease the shine of my forehead, and put on a bit of lipstick.
I'm a femme-presenting person who is not conventionally attractive. I have small eyes; pale, shiny skin; frizzy hair; a very round face. I wear make up for myself only in so far as it literally makes my life easier because *it clearly makes other people feel more comfortable* when they must interact with me. Otherwise, I look sick or I look tired and people... respond accordingly. There's space there where there isn't if I look nicer and downplay my ugliness.
The nail polish though is 100% for me because oh my gosh pretty colours on fingers to watch while I crochet wheeeeeeeeeeee
I’m disabled and have several chronic conditions so I can’t wear makeup anymore, my head is shaved and I can only wear all cotton, breathable, comfortable clothing. I can’t believe the numerous chemicals and irritants that are in cosmetics, perfumes, bath products nail polishes, etc… that I was just expected to expose myself to daily simply because society dictates that I present myself accordingly
@@chronic_payne5669 Yeah, if I go down the same trajectory as my mum and grandma, I'm going to end up in the same barrel. I already do have to pick and choose what products I use, have dropped certain things (perfume, specifically) entirely from my routine.
I also live with chronic pain, so the time and effort of all of this is... a lot.
This is definitely a touchy subject as a transfemme who is still learning all they can about makeup. While I feel the majority of the time I enjoy putting on makeup and even love exploring and experimenting with it, there are still days where I'm either feeling down or just don't want to put in the effort. But I still feel like I DO have to put in that effort and "perform" my gender through makeup to enhance my chances of being perceived as my correct gender.
Welcome to being female.
I'm not a big make-up fan but when I do wear it, surprisingly enough it's because I want to, as an autonomous human being. It's less of a thing in the UK, I think
Reasons for a person to wear makeup :
- it's fun
- because you feel more confident
- because your work expects you to
- to take a nice picture for your resume
- to attract your crush of any gender
- to exercise your creativity
And way more, I am not inside of everybody's heads
Most of what you said is either dud or tied into how the other gender would see you 😂
@@chaitanyagupta6668 eh, it's pretty much the same reasons with why someone would choose to dress good...ever. 5/6 of the reasons they stated also aren't tied solely to how the other gender would see you. 🤨
@@ThaoBui-bd6un 1. It's fun. Why?
2. To feel confident. Why?
3. Work expects to, unless you're a model or entertainer, NO work expects you to wear makeup.
4. nice pic in general, why?
5. Attract crush, need I say more?
6. Excercise your creativity, lmao I'll not even touch this.
Most of the whys can easily be answered by because, how pretty you look to others defines the reason. And being pretty to the other gender is a BIG part of youthful people.
@@chaitanyagupta6668 it's fun for self expression. like someone really likes the color blue or something and so they wear more blue clothing. makes you feel more confident like how combing your hair so it looks better can make you more confident. exercising creativity is a pretty valid one too. sometimes people just like expressing their personality through their appearance, so just because the whys can be answered by looking pretty to the other gender, there are many other reasons why too. And being pretty to the other gender being a big part of youthful people is generalization. it's not to everybody. it might be a common reason, but one among many other common reasons too. people just like expressing themselves.
@@chaitanyagupta6668 wow there are a lot of assumptions there. Yes I did put attract your crush but that's the only one with seduction in mind. Fun and creativity go hand in hand together, I was thinking about unconventional makeup like drag queens and kings or artists or Halloween makeup. Things you can see in Chen Chen designs for example, not the typical thing you use to seduce someone. Actually there are more jobs that expect it than you imagine, some luxury brands for example, because it gives a more professional look. For the picture I precisely said for a resume, for potential employers, not for social media. When we know how beauty sadly plays a role in employment, a little glow up in the resume can be a plus, even though we would love if it weren't the case. And to feel more confident, while how we are perceived can absolutely matter, it doesn't mean it's necessarily about seduction, and it's more taking care of oneself. That's why you can do that in the confined of your own home.
And yes, just because one of these reasons can be because of seduction, doesn't mean all of them are. It would be like saying men only go to bars to sleep with someone. It couldn't be further from the truth and it's overgeneralizing. People are different and have different aspirations. So I don't get what you're trying to prove with your argumentation but I am just kindly asking you to not twist my words just so it can fit your world view. I know I won't change your mind, I am fine with that, I'm just asking you to at least read what I write without deforming it. And it's just a list of reasons, it doesn't mean every women, or a majority of them, does it for these reasons.
I have plenty of reasons to wear makeup and none of them include men.
1. It's Christmas.
2. It's Valentines (not I'm not looking for a partner. The color scheme is so cute.)
3. It's Fall.
4. It's Winter.
5. It's Summer.
6. It's Spring.
7. I saw a color scheme I wanted to replicate on my eyes.
8. It's Mardi Gras.
9. It's Easter.
10. It's Halloween.
11. It's any day around those and I feel some color inspiration.
Wearing makeup hasn't gotten me a relationship in all the time I've done it. It probably didn't help that I wasn't looking. People assume I'm in a relationship though which is really weird.
It's true that you are respected and valued more when your wear makeup in public. The only other places I have found that seem to be acceptable to not wear makeup are the grocery store and the gym (at least, no comments). I always wear makeup to work simply because I make more money and am perceived as more competent and put together (I work in the food service industry, and on days where I didn't wear makeup, I make less and have more issues at my tables). It is wild that we have conditioned our minds to believe that this type of superficial beauty matters.
Best thing about being 60 - no one cares anymore
I've always gotten more comments from woman than from men about me wearing make-up. I even wanted to start wearing it again, but one "I'm so glad you started wearing make-up again!" From my mother is all it took for me to say f this and stop
my mother used to say, " you are such a pretty girl, go put on make-up." I explained the sentence was an oxymoron. If I were actually pretty, I wouldn´t have to wear make-up.
I wear makeup when & if I want to.
I was raised by my grandmother who used to shove down my throat the idea that “if you don’t wear makeup and do your hair, you’ll never get a boyfriend,” from a young age. It made me so angry. I felt like it wasn’t fair that this expectation was put on girls but not boys and that I should be loved for who I am.
To this day, I don’t wear makeup and it’s the only thing I ever did that felt like a rebellion against my parental figure. I also think it’s why, from a young age, I was a vocal feminist, which wasn’t as easy to be twenty years ago, or even ten years ago.
I also read a research study, about ten years ago, that said women that don’t wear makeup in a professional setting are seen as less capable and that always stuck with me. That more than anything made me want to makeup but it’s still not for me.
If wearing makeup was all it took to get treated as a human being and worthy of respect...I'd get it tatoo'd on. But wearing makeup is the bare minimum and frequently gets you treated as a sex object. I see as lose/lose more....
Huh. I experienced the opposite, as a student (in STEM) - wearing makeup, or wearing a dress, or getting my nails done would make me "less professional" and questioned. Essentially _yes, you can be a woman here, but we don't want to know._
living in arizona has somewhat excused me of this, but certain industries definitely still have what feels like an unspoken requirement to wear makeup. when i worked in california (main fields being education or sales), it was certainly expected of me to wear makeup. my managers when i was selling suggested it to me because my numbers were bad because i was the only girl in my tech dept...guess who's numbers caught up to everyone else's with a little bit of mascara and foundation...
also i'm so glad you mentioned other minority groups. beyond having to take these extra steps just to land on the positive side of perception, i find it ridiculous that, because i had to wear makeup for my job performance, everyone thought i was lying about being a lesbian.
I barely use makeup but when I used to use concealer and didn't one day I got comments about seeming tired.
Words fail me about the uselessness and worse of Jordan Peterson.
For sure. Bad news.
People treated me so much differently before I put effort into my appearance- I just don't want to be bullied. So yes, I wear makeup, it's to help ensure people don't treat me like crap. And doubly so they are less likely to notice my poor social skills.
Also, I actually enjoy putting it on now, its part of my routine. Although I stopped wearing foundation. I think its better for my skin & self esteem.
i can 100% vouch for this as a woman. i normally don't wear makeup bc of time and the expenses that go into buying makeup and so I went into a store once as my natural bare faced self like I normally am. fast forward to a few days later, I put on makeup bc I'm had went out for lunch with a bestie and I simply wanted to look nice for myself. i go into the same store afterwards, there's a guy working there who I saw earlier in the week and he suddenly flirts with me and ends up giving me a discount. like tf??? my makeup look and natural look aremt that far off since I don't have much acne or hyperpigmentation and do "natural" makeup look. but I guess I somehow looked different to this guy and was deemed more worthy of flirting and a discount. its insane. to add on, this also correlates to pretty privilege.
Maybe,.I agree pretty privilege exists. Here, more likely he didn't recognize you the 2nd time- because he sees a bazillion people every day-and he was in a better or different mood. That we think something caused by an unrelated factor is caused by something about us is a normal cognitive bias all people have.Your "study size" is one episode with one person on one day so it's not a lot to guess on, nor insane, out there, wild, or even that informative. It's good to confront our cognitive biases , to not assume, to be open to different possibilities rather than just conclude that a piece of "evidence" must be caused by what we already suspect or think. There's too much of that in the world right now.
I'm lucky enough to work at a business that legitimately doesn't care if I wear make up or not. That said, if I need to go to any sort of appointment or even get my computer fixed, I absolutely put some on. It's ridiculous, but I get taken 100 times more seriously if I do.
I had a graduate anthropology professora, teaching me honors introductory anthropology AND then Honors Medical Anthropology, have to go to the extent of bringing 2 stacks of files, 4+ feet each, to class. She placed them on the front desk, and when class commenced, she calmly declared--This stack is my published work; this stack is my clinical research; there is a file cabinet of the bases for both of these in my office. Feel free to delve into it, question it, and if you have done so then feel free to really question my feedback and grading. I've just been made Dean of the Social.and Behavioral Sciences Department, not a job I want but one that keeps my employment secure, and I don't have time.
I already got the point that women do things for patriarchal expectations (ex. unshaved legs on a woman being 'unprofessional' and unshaved legs on a man being normal, the default.), but I never thought about how people who aren't cis white men have decreased authority towards them, and how they have to be perfect in order to keep a hold on the same respect a white guy in the same power just 'naturally' have.
I often think about and look at how women and men, different races, lgbtq people, and disabled people are treated differently in online spaces, where people are quick to dish out critism towards a woman, but has only praise towards a man doing the same thing.
To your comment about treatment online ... I've been thinking about the "free speech" folks recently (wanting uncensored unregulated platforms), and how I, a queer person, don't want to deal with homophobia when I'm just trying to enjoy videos and comments.
I'm fine with there being mostly unfiltered unhinged places, but i also want their to be safer spaces.
And the contrast here: most those "free speech" folks seem to be white boys/men who are probably less likely to be targeted with demographic-related hate. Not to say that white men/boys don't deal with bullying, cuz they do. But ... I'm rambling so imma stop.
It's a lot of marketing. Makeup, hair care, skin care. Women have been expected to buy all this stuff. Actually pressured to keep up and spend their money. I didn't realize how much until some of my women friends described feeling like that even as young girls.
If i don't wear makeup , it's "you look tired"
My only answer is always "Well, I *AM* tired".
But then again, I work in a technical job, and before that I was in a job that had a "no make-up OR REALLY LIMITED make-up" rule.
I think I did get negatively impacted in the way of not adhering to the patriarchy, but that only made me even LESS WILLING to learn how to do make-up, let alone integrate that into my daily routine.
My Mum only ever wore make-up when going out, work was not included in going out. When in my teens my Mum would always remind me that less was more when it came to make-up i.e a thin layer of foundation that matches your skin tone (I’m far more likely to either use a tinted moisturiser or no foundation at all) and maybe a light dusting of powder if you’re a bit shiny, a little eye make-up and a touch of lipstick. I have rarely ever worn make-up to work and I’ve never done the whole contouring thing or even used blusher (I don’t think I’d even know how to use either). I’m close to fifty and I’ve worked in many different environments including cafes, factories and offices and nobody has ever said anything to me about a lack of make-up. I have two sisters in law, one a little older than me who has had a career as an educator both in schools and university, the other a touch younger who has worked in government…neither of them wear make-up all the time either.
The toxicity of expectations on women…and anyone who isn’t an able bodied heterosexual white man is disgraceful and needs to be stamped out. It is sadly something my niece in her early twenties has endured in regards to make-up when she was in her teens and that was through peer pressure, as she has always been far more likely to encounter the women in her family without make-up. But because all her friends wore thick foundation with base coats and finishing products and contoured and had blusher and false eyelashes and false nails etc etc etc, she had to do it too.
Of course I am fortunate enough to be of a generational that grew up without social media (and I am grateful for that privilege) and so didn’t grow up being told that you are supposed to pretend to be someone else i.e make sure you don’t look like you by constantly wearing a mask of make-up, stand in positions (and if possible touch photos up) to make your body look like you have the same figure as Barbie and always make it seem as though you have a perfect life…unless there is a drama that you can exaggerate and exploit. But these expectations can only be stamped out if we make everyone that we can, understand that it is unacceptable to project your expectations of how other people should be, onto them. The only expectations in regards to appearance anyone has to live up to are their own, not yours nor anyone else’s…and if there is a dress code in place, everyone must live up to it…equally.
I don’t wear make up because I don’t want to. When I did it was to please myself.
So I did have a guy bitch at me that men don't get to wear makeup to work, etc. I only had eyeliner and mascara to make me look not quite as run down and sleepless. I told him he absolutely could. There's nothing but himself and the stigma that men can't wear it, regardless of the fact our trade is electrical construction. It's all on him.
That's easy for you you say. There are plenty of employers who would find a way to fire a man who wore makeup to work. They wouldn't nescessarily say that's the REASON for firing him- they would find some other reason. But either way, they'd get rid of him.
@@themaggattack I think if they come to work on time, do good work, and aren't generally idiots the foremen wouldn't care.
Yes and if makeup is “art”, why aren’t men socially expected to wear it?
We’ve been taught that some of the greatest artists in history were men.. so why don’t they wear it?
Oh- I forgot the cost (an average of $200,000 a lifetime if the average price of makeup you buy is $8 a product), time (28,900 hours, aka 481 days if it takes you 15-20 minutes to apply makeup plus 72 days of shaving if the average shaving session is 10 minutes), and effort needed to apply makeup…
No wonder men who share a woman’s lifestyle are called sissies and pussies by other males.
Men have set up society and social norms in such a way that our social gender is the worst insult, a spectacle.
@@racheleast688 No. There's inherent anti-queer and sexist bias that impacts cishet men as well. A lot of cishet men would be fired if they tried to use eyeliner or nail polish. At the very least told to go home and clean it off before coming back. It's important to remember that the patriarchy harms everyone and also be aware how it does. ♥
Setting aside politics, and just talking about the person.... JD Vance wears eyeliner. News anker
YES! This is EXACTLY why I wear make-up; in fact, I ONLY wear make-up when I go to work, because I feel like if I don't I'm being 'unprofessional.' I don't wear a lot - just the token touch-ups to look like I've at least put SOMETHING on - because it's a faff, putting all that stuff on, and the second I'm back home through my front door I'm scrubbing that stuff off my face, so no, I'm hardly revelling in my power as a femme fatale while I'm all painted up. What am I trying to 'manipulate' my male customers into - buying more chocolate from the shop I work in? If they're THAT easily persuaded, maybe that's a problem for THEM...?
I swear, Jordan Peterson's elevator is not going to the top floor. Not even near it. Nothing he says about women either matches my experience, or what I've seen from other women.
I wear makeup to work because it makes me feel good about myself; at 75 I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be expected to wear makeup to work.
I wear makeup because I like to wear makeup, I like how it makes me feel about me.
the key question is.... WHY it impacts how you feel about yourself.... and if part of that reason is because of the positive reinforcement you get from society when you do, and the negative response you get when you don't. That's the question at hand.
Also, for me make up is about vulnerability. I literally hide behind it
I haven't worn make-up since the 1980's, and I don't care what others think about it - I have the privlege of being old!
Ditto! i havent worn makeup since my Prom back in the 80s. I liked how it looked on me but NEVER wanted to make it any kind of habit. I didnt want people expecting me to look a certain way all the time. They were just gonna see my regular face and accept that. (Plus as a Black woman I can get away with it in a way white women can't sometimes. I'm already disrespected for being Black and a woman. I wont be considered any worse because I'm not wearing makeup. In fact, if I did wear makeup I might be considered less trustworthy!
#1 Jordan Petersen is NEVER the audience I cater/pander to.
#2 I worry about the added pollution I'd be contributing to.
The makeup and dressing up conversation is EVEN more weird when it comes to overweight women. I don't get as much slapback because men aren't looking at me but the less time I dedicate to my outer beauty the more I get blamed for people treating me poorly instead of seeing it as them being crappy people who have decided that common decency isn't for overweight women who can't give them something. I think this is even more weird in Alaska, so I wonder sometimes HOW different it is here compared to the lower 48.
I have literally seen white cis gender male profs in college from the side of bow ties and slacks all the way to shorts and flip flops and it was all so normal and no one ever questioned them about anything. I cannot think of a single woman prof (sadly because of my location I don't think I've experienced very many POC or non-abled profs which is a whole other problem because I wish now that I had been given the opportunity to learn from different POV's earlier in my life) who wasn't fully dressed up (for Alaska which is a little more casual) for ever single class. And there just weren't very many profs that weren't white cis gender men to begin with.
I wear makeup for me. I dress up for me. If my husband likes it, then lucky him! haha
I have extremely sensitive skin (due to autoimmune disease) and cannot wear cosmetics for more than a handful of hours without weeks of suffering. I certainly can't wear makeup all day, everyday. And I have absolutely gotten flack about it.
Yes and if makeup is “art”, why aren’t men socially expected to wear it? Some employers would find all sorts of unfathomable reasons to fire a man for wearing makeup and they obviously wouldn’t say it was because he wore makeup. They would find some other reason to do it, but they would get rid of him.
We’ve been taught that some of the greatest artists in history were men.. so why don’t they wear it?
Oh- I forgot the cost (an average of $200,000 a lifetime if the average price of makeup you buy is $8 a product), time (28,900 hours, aka 481 days if it takes you 15-20 minutes to apply makeup plus 72 days of shaving if the average shaving session is 10 minutes), and effort needed to apply makeup…
No wonder men who share a woman’s lifestyle are called sissies and pussies by other males.
Men have set up society and social norms in such a way that our social gender is the worst insult, a spectacle.
I have psoriatic arthritis, and if I wear makeup, I start to get psoriasis plaques on my face. It wasn't as bad when I was younger. I could wear makeup on special occasions or with costumes, but now I can even do that anymore.
I wear makeup because it is one of my only creative outlets. I cant draw, or paint, or sing, or play an instrument, or anything like that but I can put pretty powders on my face. I also find it fun. I want to look like a colorful, sparkly, disco ball, fairy 🌈 🪩 🧚♀️
I don’t wear makeup because my eyes are sensitive and I wear contact lenses for very bad eyesight,
Because I’d rather buy videogames and clothing,
Because lipstick takes the natural color out of your face (my mother told me this and didn’t want it to happen to me).
Because my brain is too active to keep up with my outer appearance.
Because the prices are stupid.
and because you don't work a job that requires it...
These are very valid points. I don’t think lipstick *has* to take the colour out of your face, unless it’s the wrong shade for your skin tone, but hell yeah, do what makes you happy 👏
Fully support and agree with you but I wanted to comment that lipstick doesn’t inherently take the color out of your face! Wearing the right shade for your complexion will actually enhance your complexion.
As a trans woman, I feel I have to wear makeup to get gendered properly. I was excited about wearing makeup at first, but now it feels like a pain. Not just the amount of time it takes to do it, but also the fact that it rubs off on *everything* my face comes into contact with. (My hands, Kleenex, beverages, my glasses, the collar of my dress, a pillow if I want to rest for a couple of minutes during the day, etc.)
You need a sealer/setting spray. I personally prefer something powerful so I don't have to remember to reapply and focus till end of day. Urban Decay All Nighter is good, but I've also heard good stuff about Mehron barrier spray (theater folks), Ben Nye final seal, and Caliray. Drag Queens have the best tips! But checkout makeup subreddits too. It's likely your question has already been asked before, if not go ahead and ask but be sure it's on an active subreddit. I think r/MakeupAddiction is still good but it's been a while since I've hung out in the makeup and skincare subs.
Sorry for the ramble. But wanted to provide resources because no one ever told me about setting sprays/powders.
And it's hard trying to figure it out on your own later in life even as a cis woman.
Being a woman is brave bc nobody chooses subjugation.
@@Rita-kx3yr Thanks for the recommendations! I have tried setting spray and powder, and they didn't seem to do much. However, I wasn't using the brands you recommended. It's also possible I'm not using them correctly.
The other potential problem is that I sweat profusely, so I probably mess up my makeup from underneath. I've always been like that, and it's only gotten worse since I started HRT. My face can just have sweat rolling off it continuously, even when the temperature is 72 degrees (Fahrenheit). I don't know what to do about that problem.
@@electronics-girl Oof. I feel that. I too am a sweaty gal, and I can only imagine how worse it'd be on HRT. I think UD All Nighter spray should still work. But Ben Nye might be better. Though I think you can use both at the same time? I'd recommend looking up tips for Ben Nye as I'm not as familiar with it.
Theatrical stuff and drag queen recs should also work as it gets really hot on stage.
You'll have to try things out to make sure it works for you. Trying to figure out makeup all at once can be expensive though, so it's also fine to do/buy things piecemeal. That also helps identify if the product agrees with your skin.
@@electronics-girlI live in the tropics and it's just as well I don't wear make up, or it would be dripping from my chin within 1 minute.
I wear red lipstick every day it’s for me. No other reason
I hate judging people by the powder that's resting on them lol.
My fiance loves makeup but will go weeks without wearing any. I never pressure her or treat her differently.
Guys who do the you should wear makeup and then insult you for wearing it are no different than gas lighters. It's a game to try and break them down in a no win situation. Anyone who judges you harshly on your makeup/lack of doesn't deserve to have their opinion acknowledged.
I used to teach math part-time, and I never wore makeup. I think that I got away with it because I was teaching a subject that was complicated and intimidating to a lot of my students, and it's a subject that happens to be very black-and-white. It was hard to debate that the equations and properties I put on the board were true, and the rare time when someone tried to, I was able to provide indisputable proof. I often volunteered that proof anyway, just to help my students understand that the information I was trying to impart was coming from somewhere.
You got away with it because math students give zero shits about personal hygiene let alone someone else’s grooming rituals lmao as a comp sci major
@@spook6394 I think there's some truth to that, too, lol. But I often taught classes that everyone was required to pass regardless of their major, so I got all kinds of students. (They were also taking math classes they couldn't opt out of at Oh-God-thirty in the morning, so they probably had bigger problems than how nice their teacher's face looked.)
@@emilydivis6369 oh god thirty in the morning is my monday wednesday thursday tutorials rn and can confirm i only care about how my professors look after 2pm and then i make sure to email them about it if they’re not up to par
I don't wear makeup. I never have. I, also, have social anxiety, so I avoid attracting attention. It works very well. If you want to be ignored by society, be a woman who doesn't wear makeup.
Is it sadder that it took years for people to say it or that people had to point out the obvious to Peterson and his fans?
Makeup has never been my thing. I kept waiting for it to become appealing and it hasn't. So I don't wear it. And I've never thought about that as an issue in the workplace.
I also never wear makeup. I always just kinda felt like a clown when I put it on. It made me more self conscious. You can look out together without it. I’ve never felt that anyone treated me poorly or had less respect for me because I didn’t wear it
It depends on the job. I’ve actively avoided jobs when I have to wear make up.
I definitely think it's a more contextual issue than this video makes it seem. I remember in university, we had a prof that never dressed up, never wore makeup, and she never seemed to have any issues. Pretty sure most of the male profs also at least wore khakis and button-ups, if not outright suits.
I've never used make-up in my life, it's never been an issue.
I had to wear make up in "college" it was part of my "uniform" not unreasonable as I was studying to be an esthetician. I was expected to wear make up as the dt window girl at a fast food place. Then I spent 10 years at home raising my kids and I just couldn't be bothered ( I hate it, it makes me itchy). Now I work in a factory. And nobody gives a shit... and this is my home now.
Yes and if makeup is “art”, why aren’t men socially expected to wear it?
We’ve been taught that some of the greatest artists in history were men.. so why don’t they wear it?
Oh- I forgot the cost (an average of $200,000 a lifetime if the average price of makeup you buy is $8 a product), time (28,900 hours, aka 481 days if it takes you 15-20 minutes to apply makeup plus 72 days of shaving if the average shaving session is 10 minutes), and effort needed to apply makeup…
No wonder men who share a woman’s lifestyle are called sissies and pussies by other males.
Men have set up society and social norms in such a way that our social gender is the worst insult, a spectacle.