Why build your own plane versus buying?!
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- čas přidán 24. 03. 2016
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Builder ID Number: 41638
In this short video I talk to why I answer a commonly asked question; Why on Earth would you want to build a plane instead of just buying one?!
Easy!
Having been around aviation and builders and flyers for 4 decades there is one theme that I have heard that seems to be true.
Builders build and flyers fly.
If you want to fly then find the best airplane you can and write the seller the check.
Builders, in my observation, tend to build, fly enough for final sign off, then a little more and then sell. And within a short time are starting another build.
Lots to be said about building, it's a great feeling when done. Enjoy your RV 10. I think you'll love it.
Well done. I have been enjoying all your build videos. You must have to add significant time to keep up with them but I am grateful for your efforts. I am working through the decision of buy or build and your videos have been informative. Keep up the great work.
Jason, this is an excellent video series. I just discovered these videos today while doing some research into building a RV-10. It is thoroughly enjoying for me to watch your build come together and I spent most of my evening watching. I now know that I could build one as well. Thanks for that. Looking forward to your future videos. I am a new subscriber. Take care!
+David B You TOTALLY can build one!! Van's will take good care of you too.. Give them a call and get started!
I've been watching your build and appreciate your time, effort and work to share with other builders. I am looking at a complete RV-6 kit now. I know it will require a little more time and work since that model, when this one was sold, did not have the pre-drilled skins etcetera. I am used to working with glass - building Rutan Long EZ and Varieze planes. I've have minimum experience with building metal aircraft building. I must say, watching you gives me confidence I can do it though. For your first build, you make it look pretty easy. Good for you and your attention to detail.
Awesome explanation! I'm currently building a Pietenpol Air Camper and I'm loving every minute I get to spend focused on the project. I've met so many people through EAA and it usually doesn't take me much time to get answers to some of the more technical problems I run into. I'd say the hardest things for me are making decision when it come to choosing what will make mine unique in its own way. While there are answers for almost every questions, some are purely up to the builders decision making. You have to be willing to learn new skills, and you MUST be willing to reach out and seek help from experience (and its not difficult). I use the EAA forums a lot and if I don't get a straight up answer, often times I'll be referred to somewhere/one else.
Home Depot Aviation, Let's do this!
Here is a guy building a home depot plane czcams.com/video/1V8quR2P7lw/video.html
its scary.
Or harbor freight aviation
You can build it, we can help.
Just found your channel! Love your content! I hope to one day build and fly an aircraft! Thank you for the inspiration!
Cool video as always (and as a programmer I can relate), but can i ask a few more questions?
1) why Vans RV10 specifically, why not a RV8, or some other kit plane? You've mentioned the "mission", can you detail what yours is?
2) did you consider Composite kits? Or other manufacturing type kits?
3) why not the Speed build kits, and are they worth it in your opinion?
4) Has moving to the hanger affected your time per day spent on the plane/estimated date of completion?
5) what do you know now that you wish you knew when you started?
6) haven't heard much on the learning to fly status.. can we get an update? What's your next goal on that front?
7) can you detail your "dream" kit plane?
8) looking forward what scares you the most in the RV10 instructions.
oh and just a note... I've been watching for almost a year now, and noticed that you're coming up on a 1 year anniversary of your video where you detail time taken/averages (May 16/May20th video) Can you update the figures you mention in that video (you might want to release that video on the anniversary).
hi from Argentina i will share your video to explain a lot o buddys here about these questions , im building from plans mi PA 11 , thanks for the video i will continue seeying the next ! and the next! !!
Great stuff. I'm testing the waters on this and you're motivating me to do it. I to am a software engineer and feel the same way. I move bits around on a computer, although I do get some fulfillment out of it. I'm also considering the RV-10.
Comment from the future. Keep at it you're doing great and looking great.
Watched from beginning to end... Very good explanation...
This didn't age well.
Jason did an outstanding job building, educating, motivating and keeping us company.
Hopefully I will have built a solid knowledge base by the time I reach his stopping point.
I still use his post as a reference and motivator.
Wishing him great success in whatever he choses to do. Thanks to him for getting me started.
I look forward to seeing you flying.
Back in October 2006 my dad and I decided to do it. Our RV-7A project was born. We flew it for the first time together a little more than 9 years later (1/30/16), and we definitely showed the "RV grin". That moment made it all worth it. It was definitely not an easy task, but we knew it was ultimately possible, and just simply took it bit by bit. Bit by bit was key. I also suspect that I'll become a "repeat offender"!
Take pictures Alex! I love seeing other peoples planes. And yeah... I already know I'll be building more..
+Jason Ellis You bet, I'll be starting up a channel about our flying adventures.
Alex Grzelecki I can't even imagine how one would even do it. So congrats!
I’m hoping to get myself into a position, money wise, to get my PPL and build one of these. Some real nice examples out there. Was looking at the Sling TSi as well, but it needs work with the builders manuals and the aftermarket hasn’t embraced it yet as far as I’ve seen. In regards to the annual inspection, I believe it would be smart to have an “outsider” do the inspection to keep things honest. It’s your plane, your baby, and there’s a risk of your bias causing you to miss something. Not saying every year, but at least every couple years. Just how I see it and how I’d plan for it. Love the idea of being able to work on your own aircraft.
Yes!! I just picked an aftermarket fadec system from my local "Home Depot Aviation dept!!!" Hilarious! Go JE Go!!
Very Inspiring. Your Videos are the best so far for a VAN plane builder. Very detailed, and Fun. I have know what a Van Aircraft is for 2 days ! Discovered your link today. BTW, I don't even know how to fly, but looking at schools. Best Wishes. !
+Rajesh Rajan You can do it! Good luck in your training.. it's a lot of fun!
Coder to Coder! thanks for the video! would have been nice to see more of where you were at in the build process.
Great vid
Hey Jason! awesome! Looking for a used or partially non-finished kit! cant find one for an RV-10, where did you see them for sale?
Thanks
Just subscribed to your videos. I'm starting an RV10 in the next few months in my 730sqft downtown Seattle apartment.
+Rob Scherban Nice! It's a fun trip.. Don't give up!
How did it come out?
Hi Jason,
I have an observation about the point of difference between Software engineering and building physical stuff because I have experimented both of them (I m still in software engineering but gave up painting)... I feel what you said when you are at the end of the day and wants to evaluate what you have accomplished. For Software, you need to run it in order to see if if it's working so that you feel happy about the job you did.... In a rainy day, running means errors also :) . As for building, it's different. once you finish one part you feel that you are going forward. As well as you go further you feel more confidence and proudness.
Subscribed!
Please dont buy Cirrus! They are owned by China! Go Cessna TTX! - That little rant aside, you sir have given me the bug! I have been watching your videos for the past 2 days and now I want to build a plane. Your videos have given me so much information that I feel I can tackle this project and come out successful. Thank you so much
You bet! Glad to help! You totally can do this.. it's easy!
As to Cirrus vs Cessna; I care less where Cirrus is made and more about the flat spin issue. There was another death just the other day because a Cirrus got into a flat spin on final and the pilot and passengers died. As I understand it this was the reason for the parachute, but when you're low to the ground like that you can't use it.. That scares me a little with the cirrus..
I do agree I think you will save a lot on maintenance, and annual inspections and buying experimental vs certified parts are much cheaper.
Well, as I understand it.. and someone please correct me if I'm wrong.. if you BUY an experimental you still need an AMP to do your inspections and what not. But if you build, you can do it because you ARE the AMP at that point.
The price difference between certified and non-certified parts are so far apart its not even worth considering the certified parts..
Nice video, look forward to watching the rest. People either get it or they don't. I noticed the same people that didn't understand also didn't understand my desire to fly. For them the only type of plane they trust is commercial or they hate flying.
Funny.. I hate flying commercial..
congratulations on the faro head set, and I think the tio540 would be awesome
+Shannon Taylor Thanks and Yeah a TIO would be awesome but pricey as heck
I was wondering where you got your tools? What tools do you use most? Really interested in the dempler. Hopefully I will be able to start my own RV, thanks for making it look so easy, lol.
+Frank Lister www.randomstringofwords.com/build-log/tools/ Avery is now out of business, so Cleveland or aircraftspurce (and I'm sure others) are your best options now. Cleeco pliers are used by far the most.. Get two.. Honestly you use everything..
Thanks for your awesome videos! What follows is a geek out over the cost of aircraft ownership, which so many pilots struggle to understand. I make a comparison to renting, which is not to convince anyone against building or buying, but simply to help demonstrate the impact of the most overlooked cost of aircraft ownership.
The most overlooked cost of owning a plane is the opportunity cost (the opportunity you give up by tying up your money in the aircraft). An easy way to estimate this is to assume you'd otherwise save the money and invest it long-term in the stock market. $130,000 invested today at an annual rate of 5% above and beyond inflation (which is roughly consistent with S&P historical performance) yields about $6500/yr in growth. Reinvest the growth, and over 10 years the $130,000 would be worth ~$212,000 (again, adjusted for inflation). So, after 10 years of ownership you have an opportunity cost of ~$10k/yr. Now add your hangar costs ($3k/yr), insurance costs ($1k/yr), operating costs ($80/hr * 100hrs/yr = $8,000), and maintenance/upgrade/repair funds ($2k/yr), and the real cost of ownership comes out to ~$24k/yr (to put that in perspective, realize that ~28% of households -35% of all individuals- in America live on less than $25k/yr). Rental rates at my local FBO for a Cirrus SR22 are $268/hr. For 100 hours/yr flight time it appears to cost ~$3k more than owning an RV10. However, renting an aircraft eliminates the opportunity cost (the $130k I would have used to build the plane continues to sit in the S&P index growing steadily), so in fact renting the SR22 costs somewhat less per year less than the RV. None of this is meant to be discouraging, but rather to demonstrate the importance of the often overlooked opportunity cost. As you've so eloquently stated, it is impossible to mathematically justify the ownership of an aircraft for personal use, unless your time is so valuable that getting there on-demand offsets all the other costs (which is why private business jets exist). What's the moral of the story? Build an airplane simply for the passion of building, for the love of flying, and for the experience of a lifetime. Also, consider selling your airplane and donating the proceeds to charity when you're no longer able to fly. : )
THIS. Okay so, Som is way smarter than I am and outlines this nicely. Clearly I need to get my stock market advice from you =)
At this point I am building because I love the build process..
Where does it stop though? Live in the now and enjoy the things that you're passionate for. Flying and the satisfaction in the time spent building it and enjoying the hobby has its value in quality of life and satisfaction too :)
All good reasons
I was looking at the dyes for the demplers and notice there is a avaition set? What is the difference between the rivet dempler and the screw dempler? Do you only use one size dempler, or do you need many different sizes? ie a one-to-one or one-to-many :) I program too and understand the lack of achievement on the job :(
+Frank Lister Hi Frank! So, this is a very good question. From what I can tell, there is no difference.. but I'm not sure. I know each dye set behaves slightly different and some people prefer one set to another because of how it leaves the dimple in the skin. I honestly can't tell you the difference.
Absolutely YES to everything said! And kudos to all you guys, Jason and the "Repeat Offenders"! The only "wet blanket" I can think of is value (resale value obviously) and insurance. And I'm curious if you'll be building in metal again for your next project or if you'll be tempted by glass like, oh let's say, a Lancair 2 or 4 seater? Cheers! :-)
I will likely build metal. I kinda like the idea of an F1 Rocket single seat style "fighter plane" tail dragger.. Glass honestly scares me due to just sucking at it..
I'd love to start with a Kitfox for my first project. After that yes, a Van's would be tops, either an RV-7, RV-14 or RV-10 ...RV-8 if I ever feel particularly awesome ;-)
I saw a kitfox the other day with a radial engine.. OMG.. it was BEAUTIFUL!!!!!
Rv10 takes about 2000 hours to build. The kit is over 100g. If it was a factory built plane it would likely be over 400k. So you save 2 to 300k.
Your videos are so inspiring Jason. Im a computer engineer too and I love aviation. What Im thinking now is I have the math and physics knowledge from university so I need to marry them with aviation knowledge.
i guess it is quite randomly asking but do anyone know of a good site to stream new tv shows online ?
@Remy Miller Flixportal =)
@Bennett Dylan thanks, I signed up and it seems like a nice service =) I appreciate it!!
@Remy Miller you are welcome =)
Home Depot Aviation Dept.....Repeat offenders. LOL!!! Thanks for the laugh...
Drinking coffee and getting mentally prepared to go to a buddies wake (Covid-19). Laughing was a great stress reliever.
Contemplating a RV build to go with my already owned 172. I'm tired of the certified aircraft maintenance circus. Looking free myself of that.
here's one: because it's awesome!
It must be much more satisfactory to fly on a plane that you built. at least it happens to me when i build a RC plane. I dont like buying ready to fly planes. (even it could be cheaper). its not the same. and if you like to build go for it. i keep looking your videos. saludos desde argentina!
So is it complete ? Curious
Because I can is always a good answer.
Is insurance a big affect on cost between certified Cessna and a RV10 ,, at first I wanted to get my helicopters private pilot but at 10,000 $ a year in insurance I'm going for my ppl
Hi Anthony, I don't know the answer to that. I'd put that out to the rest of my users. It's a good question. Does a experimental aircraft cost more to insure?
Hi, I wanted to know if this plane can be built in parts or only with the construction kit, and if you would have the plane to do it with measurements and materials. Thank you
Could you make it from raw aluminum? Uh.. yes? I mean if they can fabricate the spars and other bits, you could.. but dear god. Don't do that. hah. The plans don't give you the measurements of the individual parts, just use part #123 xyz certain way..etc.
Ups, well, thank you very much. I absolutely agree with the reasons you give to build our own plane, and I can build mine. Thank you very much and it will not be the only question I consider. Hahaha
you are really inspiring me to build aircraft . can you help me where to buy kits , full kits ? and as I live in India . do u know any company they can ship to my country. as per aviation rule in civil aviation department indian . I can own private aircraft .
sorry my English is horrible. don't mind .
I use Van's Aircraft. www.vansaircraft.com They have a number of different aircraft to choose from. You can buy an entire kit from them, but I don't know if they ship to India. I imagine they would, but it will add to the costs of course.
I'm from India and am actually contemplating a build as well. Hit me up if you're interested.
Good luck getting a nice RV-10 under 150k, engine and nice IFR avionics will be close to 100 k. Check the RV forums and a good estimate is around 180-200k
This was about 2016.
Ten years down the road, if you decided to sell it, the profit would be huge and you could use those funds to by an entire kit for cash.
Do you need an A&P to build planes ?
Nope! In fact if you build 51% of the plane, you will be the A&P for that plane =)
If you're going to fly a plane you may as well know how to maintain it. You build it, you know every inch of it.
Did Van's Aircraft provided you tools to build your plane?
Malcolm Hopkins no. They don’t provide you with anything other than the kit would you pay for. All of the tools I purchased through online websites.
Are they special type of tools and are they expensive?
Yeah there are some pretty specialized tools for sure..
drive.google.com/open?id=1wJSTo-aurDe-rU77XE2CsBV1E5s5pomMPhrlpOXdrg8
Had this conversation yesterday concerning a 45' catamaran.
You're building a catamaran?! That's awesome
For the record, at one time in my life I wanted to get (and live full time aboard) a Lagoon, Fountaine Pajot, Leopard..etc.. or some other such high end Cat. I still like the idea a lot actually. BUT, I'd have to start from zero. I don't know how to sail and I have no idea how hard/easy it would be to do that on such a big boat =)
Jason Ellis just putting together the blueprints and parts lists for the time being! Need to sort out building space before construction gets underway. So far the blueprints are fairly similar to the new outremers and leopardards; and the plan is to have it be a (virtually) full time live-aboard! Monohull will have to do until then! Apparently builders/adventures think alike!
Oh I love this. Please please please keep me posted.. I want to live vicariously through you. I watch a lot of sailing vlogs online as it is.. Yeah.. Dreamers, gonna dream =)
Jason Ellis when I start to make serious progress I'll have to start uploading content. Until then, you should look up "Tim weston" on CZcams; he's got a general overview on the catamaran build process. "How to build a catamaran" should get you there too. Named it "Tokyo express;" & remember, it's just like airplanes financially; if you build it, you can expect to save about 75%. & if money is still an issue, remember that there are infinite ways to earn! Thank you for helping out in the airplane department!
It's great that it's allowed to build prototypes, you could easily imagine a bureaucracy hell bent against that but I think it's a significant sickness sign that it's necessary in so many cases.
The most common plane around is the 172 and that model is older than chevy 57. Imagine is Chevy 57 was the most common car on the road. And where is it that? in Cuba. That's how unhealthy GA is. And I'm not sure it's actually FAA's fault. The process just might be so intimidating that few attempt it. We really need a meeting of minds and get many newer designs certified or otherwise allow factories to build planes because it's absolutely crazy for amateurs to spend 2000 hours of dread and responsibility to build it. There is no safety argument in letting random rookies build planes over a factory with a rep on the line.
within this situation, I would absolutely buy a completed kit rather than build it myself. You basically don't pay for the build so it's a no brainer. I would only ever go to the extremes of building a plane myself if I designed a vastly better plane model than available. Which I could but I'd hate the work.
My 5 years later follow up... well, no, and here's his:
"Should I sell everything?"
czcams.com/video/Sk2V1rk27sg/video.html
You can buy a 2001 Cirrus SR22 right now on Cotroller.com for 130,000 with 1400TT that matches performance of a RV10. and if you were to build an RV10 with all the same bells and whistles as cirrus, your rv10 will cost you at least 150K yes new with zero engine/airframe TT. you wills save money on maintenance cirrus comes with a parachute every 10 years it has to be repacked $10,000. Cirrus airftame has a life limit.
Ivan, Good post. A couple points; The Cirrus SR22 will not keep up with a new RV10. I have proof of that as I have flown in an RV10 that beat a SR22T by more than 6 knots. That's not a lot faster, but it is faster. For whatever reason the SR22's are a bit cluttered with stuff on the exterior where as the RV10 can be made cleaner and thus can eek out a few extra knots. Meaningless really but I thought I'd point it out. For all purposes it matches performance.
My research implies that the operating costs of the RV10 will be a less. If you take into account maintenance (and the fact that as a builder you can maintain your own plane) the cost is FAR less than the Cirrus. The Cirrus will cost more to maintain due to the need of an AMP. And then you add the $10k repack of the chute it starts getting very expensive.
Plus an 2001 Cirrus SR22 will have older avionics at this point. Not bad.. not a bad thing at all infact, but my plane will have all new glass.
Plus, I'm told you can actually build a new RV10 with all the bells for around 125k. I think your estimate is closer to accurate though.. I'll let you know my actual price tag once I'm done =p The difference is, I can pay $5k here and $5k there to build a plane and have a fully paid off aircraft once I'm done. I can't drop hundreds of thousands of dollars in a single go though.
To your point though. The Cirrus is a great aircraft. I wish I could afford one. But I can't, so building it is. =)
being able to do your own maintenance and annuals are the huge difference... CR22 are 4K a year to maintain and the chutes are overrated
I know a lot of people that really want the chutes.. My thought is, if you really need them you've probably already done a bunch of things wrong. Their counter point (which I agree is valid) is that its better to have and not need than to need and not have.. That 4k though.. Ouch
Here is where I look at it. where could you buy a new production plane that has the same performance at the same price point. The kicker is the man hours. I would gladly buy a used kit built airplane, because I know that the builder beat his/her brains out putting it together. 2000 man hours is worth so much. That is the missing component.
Yeah its a hell of a lot of time that's for sure. If you have a life, a job, a wife, other things... it can be tough to get to it. There are whole weeks when I cant get out to the plane just due to "things and reasons"..
anyone who builds his own plane deserves an automatic subscribe
Was it a downside that you have to wait 5 year to fly in reality? Assume you won't have much time/money left during the build.
Having to wait that long time is certainly a down side. I know one guy right now that bought a plane to fly while he builds with the intent of selling that plane once he's complete. I have tried like hell and my wife said no to that plane.. darn her!
@@JasonEllisBuilds That's my plan, buy a decent Cherokee 140 to tool around in and pay cash as I go on the kit until the air frame is done. Then; sell the Piper (plus more savings) to fund the engine and final items (avionics, paint...)
I know this is old vids but just started watching. I want to build my 4 place plane. For me there is only one reason to build and not buy and that because I want to. Right now there is a 2010 RV 10 for sale 30 minutes from my house. Asking $169k updated IFR avionics and says reputable airline pilot builder. No way in hell can can I build that plane for $169k, I could fly it home next week, assuming it is what’s advertised. I honestly believe I can buy cheaper and better avionics than I can build. Yes it’s 9 years old 1300 hours on a well maintained plane is close enough to new to me. There is no logical reason to build. I want to build my own plane, That’s the only thing I agree with Jason on why build.
Where is this rv10 you speak of?
Matt Kalin Tulsa Oklahoma.
Anyone who has ever owned a certificated aircraft knows why you build your own
I wish you where building a sling tsi
Why build an airplane? Because you can.
+Andy Kilroy Exactly!
5 years later, do you still have the same opinion? The joke on the message board is when you get mechanically complete, your only half way done.
Yes and no. Yes I think you're going to save money over all. TIME is the issue and taking into account all the ways that life will punch you in the gut.. And it's amusing to point out that at this point, I have both this kit AND my own plane..
My original point in the video was it's about Mission and Cost. The Cost factor is still accurate. But my Mission has changed.. which kinda sucks. BUT I still really enjoy the build process and "making" things.
And wow I was fat in this video... This was like 45 pounds ago =)
get on that vegetable diet and cut out meat and sweets you will lose weight quick
Ryan Fleming go low carb high fiber.