Schizophrenic Murderer Unmedicated Despite History of Violent Behaviour | Law & Order
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- čas přidán 20. 06. 2023
- A homeless schizophrenic who has a history of violent behaviour when left unmediated is accused, and admits, to murdering multiple people.
Season 6, Episode 21 "Pro Se": Multiple murders lead detectives to a homeless schizophrenic who has been off medication for some time.
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My dad is schizophrenic, one thing I know is that they don't just admit that there's something wrong with them. Admiting right away that he's sick just proves that he is lucid at the time
proofs nothing, I worked in health care, all of them know, some of them admit it
Yes they admit it, but not that easily. Theres always some excuse or shame or they will try to convince you out of it.
@@amarieoflothlorien a core component of schizophrenia is altered perception of reality, so what they admit to when they're off meds means little. Even in this L&O episode, the lynchpin is that the man chose to get off meds while he was lucid, not experiencing the brunt of schizophrenia.
This is something I have a background in.
It depends on the severity of their episodes and their lucidity. The people with mild symptoms won't readily admit it to themselves and the people with extreme and constant episodes are only aware of their own delusions in their brief moments of lucidity. The ones with the middle-ground issues - with major episodes and major remission - are very much aware of their status.
I worked with schizophrenics - they mostly don't agree at all that they need help. One man would be like the perp here - he would get it for a time mandatory, then he would argue it is not needed (and he was lucid), and last time judge agreed. Guy came back month later and was totally in denial he had anything (he saw his chair fly into ceiling)
'The system worked the way it's supposed to.' Scary stuff.
Judge falling back in his seat at the end of trial just after witnessing a fellow judicial personnel losing his mind is greatly done . We see him almost verge of tears
I remember this one from a clip a year or so ago (?), and for some reason, I got the impression that the perp knew exactly what he was doing. He'd go off his meds for a bit, go on a rampage, and then go back on them afterwards, relying on the fact that he would be considered incompetent at the time, and getting away with (literally) murder. He was effectively playing the system.
Oh definitely, his sister testified that he said people would just have to stay out of his way when he was off his meds.
He wanted the chance to play lawyer - he defended himself in court.
After he was convicted, he mailed his closing statement to McCoy because he didn’t get the chance to deliver it in court.
He really wanted his chance to be a lawyer.
wrong
Keep in mind that L&O plays rather loose with reality to increase the drama.
@@sonrouge Some of the cases are based on real life crimes and criminals.
Obviously, the way the stories are presented is designed to create interest, but the details of the crimes or the criminals are sometimes accurate to what really happened.
It’s one thing to not be able to access or afford medication; it’s quite another to deliberately stop medicating. Your illness is not your fault, but it is your responsibility. If you know that your previous schizophrenic episodes have led to violent outbursts, you can reasonably deduce that pattern will repeat if you go off your meds. There comes a point where the illness becomes the excuse to behave badly, and that can become dangerous.
The psych meds for schizophrenia have serious side effects, including lots of weight gain, exhaustion, muddled thinking, etc etc! The weight gain, alone, can lead to diabetes, heart issues, etc! As well as the society stigmatizing the weight gain and schizophrenia!
@@lenitaa7938 There’s no doubt that those kinds of medications do have serious side effects. But if you have a history of violent outbursts when you aren’t medicated, and you choose to go off your meds, you are responsible for your actions.
@@fabmissb So you think because your mental illness causes violent outbursts that you are required to deal with the side effects of medication to deal with them no matter how severe they might be??
@@omniversalnihilist I’m saying that making the deliberate choice to wave a loaded pistol around has consequences when the gun goes off and kills someone. If you choose to go off meds- for whatever reason- while knowing you become violent when you are not medicated, and you hurt someone, you are responsible. Mental illness is not your fault, but it is your responsibility. If an alcoholic used their illness as an excuse for their killing someone while driving drunk, how quick would you be to jump down my throat for saying they were responsible for their choice?
@@fabmissb One is requiring someone NOT to do something which we have well established in common law.
Requiring someone TO put something in their body is much shakier ground especially when that thing does demonstrable harm to the person taking it.
Him: "Do you know what it's like to use an anti-psychotic drug? It's extremely difficult."
Me: "Yeah, but it beats being killed by a psycho with a sob story."
Mental illness = sob story…
It’s funny because you said that thinking it was a good statement, maybe even funny. But in reality just makes you look ignorant. Well done…
Really there should be more application of the “Guilty But Mentally Ill” verdict! Yes, they need help, but they are still responsible for what they did!
its called not guilty by insanity, they still go to a mental hospital for the rest of their lives usually
He knew what had happened in the past. He knew that was why he needed to be on meds and what would happen if he stopped taking them. He knew, yet he chose to get off it because he got tired of the side-effects. He could have asked if other meds were possible that wouldn't give him these side-effects, but until the docs say otherwise, he needed to stick with the program. And when he gets in trouble, he wants to place the blame on others, not himself. Granted, Clair wasn't thorough enough, but that was because his past acts were never officially documented or made available to the public. I don't understand what she meant about the Maginot Line, but it seems like she's starting to become disillusioned with the justice system. She's starting to see the flaws, and that no efforts are being made to correct them. And in situations like this, people like Adam are more interested in playing politics and trying to make certain the blame doesn't fall on them rather than taking steps to do what's right, or at least see where they might have made mistakes that led to this situation.
What Clair said to the sister was right - she and her brother knew about his mental issues, and it was their responsibility to make certain he was treated.
There were episodes like this in SVU as well. Munch can argue about Constitutional rights all he wants, but when you consider what happens when someone like this guy goes off his meds, or refuses to take them... Sorry, Munch. The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, and protecting the public is more important than the individual.
The Maginot Line is a WW2 reference. The French built a line of turrets or canons, I forget which, that were very powerful. They were rendered completely ineffective because they were all fixed in one direction and couldn't be turned. Hitler's army ended up going around and slaughtered the soldiers manning the line.
To protect an individual is how you protect the public. Because all of the public are individuals.
If we sacrificed that then all the public could be easily and legally shot if their individual needs are deemed as needed to be sacrificed for the greater good. So no one would be safe and everyone would be at risk simultaneously.
Of course that’s just in theory, but the premises is in theory anyways.
In the Netherlands, if the person acts in his own/others harm due to psychiatric condition, his or her "rights" can be temporarily suspended. First a mayor of the municipality for a couple of days to get acute treatment and then a judge decides of further "limits" needed. It is pretty nice system in my opinion, many people with acute psychosis or extreme depression (who are also in complete denial of their problem) get the help they need
I like that guy who played the schizophrenic in this episode. I have seen him in other episodes as well. Very interesting actor, and underrated in my opinion. I am glad that Law and Order used him in several episodes.
Denis O'Hare
This is such an amazing episode of this show. Criminal defense lawyer here. Just great.
It’s weird when you see the episodes out of order. Wasn’t the suspect in this episode played by the same actor who played a rich suspect accused of beating a homeless man and severely injuring him?
Those facial tics are supposed to be tardive dyskinesia. It's just one of the many movement disorders you can develop from antipsychotics. I am not schizophrenic (I do have a mood disorder with psychotic features), but I am on antipsychotics and I live in fear of developing tardive dyskinesia. Also "psychotic" for the majority of people does not mean "violent". For me it's mostly hearing voices and delusions, mostly being afraid of my own mind. I also develop negative symptoms like not taking care of myself. Antipsychotics have definitely helped but I've also gained around 80 pounds on them and have constant dry mouth to the point of developing cavities no matter how well I take care of my teeth.
Has your psychiatrist tried helping you with these symptoms? Nowadays there are so many options, a good doctor should be trying to get you to a better place
@@justincase7848 I check in with a psychopharmacologist every few months to manage the dosage and side effects, but I'm going to have to be on them long term and the weight gain and dry mouth are unfortunate consequences of that.
@@matthewcrome5835 and there's nothing the doctor can do to alleviate the dry mouth?
And I assume you have tried other antipsychotics and they weren't better?
(I have no idea how to explain this, but I have a friend on risperdal who was obese at the beginning but after several years he lost a ton of weight... just saying)
@@justincase7848 I've been on a ton of antipsychotics, they mostly had more severe side effects (like low blood pressure) or were less effective. My current regimen is currently what works for me best so the doctors probably don't want to adjust it. My current medication is notorious for causing weight gain but I'm doing my best in terms of diet and exercise. The dry mouth is unfortunately only treatable to a certain extent (I had to get a cavity filled just recently), but I'm doing all I can for it now (chewing sugar-free gum, using alcohol-free mouthwash, using medicated fluoride toothpaste, brushing at least twice and flossing at least once a day, going in for cleanings at least every 3 months, you get the picture). I'm also on sodium valproate which is notorious for causing dry mouth and is probably also why I have a very bad tremor in my left hand. My greatest fear of being on these medications is either a) suffering heart disease/diabetes (it runs in my family and my weight gain isn't exactly helping it) or b) losing my teeth. But I'm managing it as well as I can now.
How can the judge let him represent himself when he’s considered psychopath🤦🏻♀️
1.) He's not a psychopath
2.) He's Schizophrenic
3.) Any defendant has the right to defend himself
4.) He's actually a lawyer...Hope this helps
@@ICU2B4UDO He also is a continual danger to anyone whose path crosses his and needs to be locked up permanently.
And as I recall, that judge was always a no-nonsense guy on the show who understood the letter and the spirit of the law. As long as he takes his meds, the defendant was a top-notch lawyer, much better than any legal aid he could afford.
@@darksideofthesun7157 This, plus Gabriel's answer. If I recall right, in this episode, they ordered him back onto his meds, which made him again a super sharp lawyer.
If he's on his meds, he's competent to stand trial and to represent himself pro se.
Spoiler:
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He ends up going off his meds when his sister 'betrays' him by testifying against him. When he tries to allocute, he's having delusions and hallucinations and is sentenced without allocution.
3:05 the defendant explains exactly why he stopped taking his meds!
He has the right to defend himself and he knew he was violent when he was off his meds but willfully stopped taking his meds
Denis O'hare is such a great actor! So real!! I love him!❤
One of my favorite episodes, Denis O'Hare is amazing in this role.
Yes!! I was looking just to comment on that!!
And, aside from his brilliant transformation, he manages to make you both hate and care for this freak of ethics.
Met him a few years ago at a convention. I was a broke college student and couldn't pay for an autograph or anything but he still conversed with my friends and I. Very nice guy, ame goes for a
Adam West and Vern Troyer
@@chrischin_94 neat! He radiates devotion to his art as a spiritual path...
Denis O'Hare is truly the Hall of Famer of the Law & Order franchise. He virtually appeared in all of them, bar the new one with Christopher Meloni.
Speaking of which, He'd make a brilliant recurrent bad guy for a season or two.
Such great writing and such great acting.
before law and order turned woke garage it was great
The way Kincaid was treated by almost everyone the whole episode was so uncomfortable to watch
I absolutely love Claire for her intelligence. (ok, also her beauty).
Medication should be mandatory!
As i say in another video, i enjoy when in matters of psicologia they are calling professionals in that matters
The scary part of being on any medication where you suffer lethargy and have to use every single ounce of energy to stay awake or you just give up and fall asleep. I can't imagine being tired all the time and wanting to sleep al the time. The scary part is you are off your medications especially if you are mentally ill. Having the voices and delusions come back and knowing and you are crazy again.
Of course he’s schizophrenic, he’s been a vampire for the last 4000 years.
What are you talking Bout?
@@AaronCortes-sz3sm The actor, Denis O’Hare, played Russell Edgington, a vampire, on True Blood. The man has a gift for playing sophisticated murderers.
Came here to say this. I mean they didnt even mention the guy he beheaded
Is he an attorney too, or is he just representing himself
As I recall, he was highly educated lawyer who was diagnosed in his twenties.
@@darksideofthesun7157 Yup. Univ. of Mich Law, admitted to the NY bar in the 1st class - same as McCoy and the judge.
@@darksideofthesun7157 Wow, and thanks for filling me in, I can’t remember if I saw that episode or not
that man is a sociopath i'm sure. I have headaches from allergies for several weeks at a time, sometimes it triggers migraines. i get barometric pressure headaches due to weather changes (its worse in winter) those are as bad as migraines. but despite taking meds they don't aways work 100% of the time, & if i don't catch it in time pretty sure it does nothing. this has ruined social events, plans to study, and i've had to work still sometimes. If there was a pill that could actually work & those were the side effects. I'd take it in a heartbeat.
6:53 Is he now on his medication again
Oh wow, McCoy actually objected a few times!
This show is absolutely terrible at letting lawyers give arguments in the middle of examinations.
🔥🔥🔥🔥
Denis O'Hare is amazing
Oh! I thought the doctor's actress seemed familiar. She played Minuet (and Min Ryker) in Star Trek: TNG
Im on those drugs and the wool comment is so accurate
Technically these two wouldn't openly be discussing a case in a public restaurant!!
When I was a paralegal I was in a cabbie with 1 lawyer and 2 barristers, one of the barristers flat out. Said his client got off when he was guilty of killing someone. I pointed to the cabbie and looked horrified, he still didn't care.
@@julesmasseffectmusic Look up the term "here say." Then learn proper grammar and punctuation!
@@JackiePhillipsTheSocialPet It's "hearsay" ffs.
@TiaKatt No. This is a privacy issue. Heresay is evidence that cant be used in court. There is no crime here. Main definition. Heresay. A statement which a witness has heard another person say, or a written statement offered in evidence without producing the author to testify as to the issues stated.
That’s about how I feel on medication and I’m bipolar
same i have bipolar 1
Santa Claus is north polar.
the end of this episode kinda made me tear up especially when he called his sister "Patty Cakes" :(
“The system worked the way it’s supposed to.”
“Yes… and doesn’t that scare the hell out of you?”
That gave me chills, because of the reality of it.
She works with dead bodies and recoveries!!! Jordan Cavernah!!! #CrossingJordan
6:58 Wait? Didn't he just object his own question?
Technically he objected to her last comment about making an impression, presumably for speculation
Classic
The trial is kinda sad. The guy studied law and graduated with the highest accolade possible despite his condition. Yet the same condition prevented him to ever be a lawyer so he's stuck with simple, unfulfilling job just to get by.
He would've been a great lawyer and he knows it, as we could see from his excellent performance in his own trial.
5:47
Another of too many episodes that pretends "not guilty by reason of mental disease or defect" doesn't lead to imprisonment.
Denis O'Hare [James Smith] is brilliant.
From the experience of people I have known who have suffered from this condition, the following scenario is not uncommon.
1) Schizophrenia is caused by a chemical imbalance in the brain. The person is put on a medication to redress said imbalance.
2) The chemical imbalance shifts in such a way that the medication which was the solution is now part of the problem.
3) The person suffers a relapse.
4) The medication is then adjusted. The cycle goes on to repeat itself.
In addition, it is not uncommon for reactions to the medication, such as depression or nausea to occur.
The question now is, what is the person to do?
I'm glad you are not injured. I don't see it in the comments but just to give context as too why Dublin was so busy that day. The women's mini marathon was on. Its a 10km race and I belive the largest female only sporting event in the world ( I could be wrong about the last bit)
It was also a bank holiday with beautiful weather so those two factors made for a very busy dublin
Jill Hennessy is so pretty.
I actually think that there is more nuance here than is given credit.
Why is it that the vast majority of people with schizophrenia either go off their meds or try to?
Clearly there is something about the disease and/or the meds that clouds their judgment about going off meds.
I really do not think that it's as black and white as this.
I don't think that someone with schizophrenia can ever be fully compared to someone without it. It's just comparing apples to oranges, and I don't think it's accurate.
Should the man be considered guilty for his crimes??
I don't think it's something that can be reduced to "he knew that he could be violent when going off meds".
I think that there are so many other psychological factors at play in such a case that I don't know if such a person is capable of making a "rational, moral" decision.
Interesting...
Then why are they walking the streets?
@@marisaera2353 the vast majority of people with schizophrenia are not violent at all. This was a very specific case that needed to be evaluated individually in terms of the fact that he was clearly a danger to the public.
This man and the defendant in season 8 episode 19 Disappeared, makes it hard to really hold them convicted for their crimes if they suffer from severe mental illness.
Not only is he psychotic, he's also a sociopath. Great 🤦
Not so fun fact: psychosis is a withdrawal symptom for anti-psychotics and mood-stabilizers that are stopped cold-turkey.
That's why you have to taper off under competent medical supervision.
You want? Who the hell are you
I know the feeling 😮
Schizophrenia is horrible,
Can’t distinguish reality from not reality.
😮
The Maginot Line was actually effective. It was never overrun or breached. It only surrendered after the rest of France capitulated.
The overall strategy was undone due to a breakdown in relations between France and Belgium. As well as a lack of imagination on the French command's part in regards to the offensive through the Ardennes Forest.
That's not even how it works "he chose to go off his meds" this is a lie
The truth is ugly, so we put our prophets in prison.
Schizophrenics in general are not "prophets". They are delusional men with highly inflated egos.
Murder is not truth. Many Murders come from mental illness.... God doesn't judge you for these sins. He paid for all of the 10 commandments. If you choose Jesus, he will justify you because he paid for all your Transgressions.
The Blood of Abel (that Cain his brother shed) Cries out. The Blood of Jesus speaks a better word. The Blood of Jesus that was shed on the Cross speaks divine justice to justify a sinner who couldn't deserve his Grace. No one is perfect. The earth we live in is imperfect. Jesus came to reconcile all the hostility God had with Sin in the Old Testament. Sin and it's consequences are paid for with the Sacrifice of Jehovah Jireh, the Lord our Provider. Jesus passed through a whirlwind of judgement and passed through the fires of condemnation. Jesus descended into Hades and suffered immensely for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD. Everyone is guilty of sin regardless of what you didn't do according to the Law of Elijah. If you do not appropriate the sanctified sacrifice, you cannot draw near to God. He is pleased with his offering of Jesus as his son to give you the propitiation for sins. We celebrate the forgiveness of sins and his unlimited Grace when eating a Roasted Lamb Dinner. When we eat the sacrifice of Jesus as a Lamb offering, all his innocence is transferred to us because Jesus’s life passed through the fire. And all of humanities sins were transferred to his body to be burned on the stake (The Cross). They burned the fat of the sacrifice of the Lamb which was a pleasing aroma to God our Father. Sin cannot be imputed to us. Righteousness is imputed instead. This is good news indeed. Everyone deserves to die, see a curse, and go to Hell forever. But Jesus gave us his innocence and fulfillment of all religious Jewish Requirements that Elijah and the Old High priests of the Old Testament could not fufill like Aaron the High Priest.
Hebrews 7:15-19
Jesus Is like Melchizedek
15 This change has been made very clear since a different priest, who is like Melchizedek, has appeared. 16 Jesus became a High Priest, not by meeting the physical requirement of belonging to the tribe of Levi, but according to the power of an endless life. 17 And the psalmist pointed this out when he prophesied,
“You are a priest forever in the order of Melchizedek.”[c]
18 Yes, the old requirement about the priesthood was set aside because it was weak and useless. 19 For the law never made anything perfect. But now we have confidence in a better hope, through which we draw near to God.(With the Blood of The Lamb)
Hebrews 7:27
English Standard Version
27 He has no need, like those high priests (Aaron), to offer (Animal) sacrifices daily, first for his own sins and then for those of the people, since he did this once for all when he offered up himself.
Jesus became our high priest and our offering when he offered up himself to get blamed for our sins as an innocent Lamb.
If you accept Jesus, He will not punish you for sin no matter what. He knew you would make mistakes like Murder and Terrorism.
Romans 4:8
Blessed is the man to whom the LORD shall not impute sin.” (BY FAITH IN HIS BLOOD AND THE CROSS)
Romans 4:13-22
The Promise Granted Through Faith
13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the Law (of Elijah and Moses), but through the righteousness of Faith. 14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, 15 because the law brings about wrath (and cursing); for where there is no law there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be [d]sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed-God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; 18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.” 19 And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb. 20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.”
Abraham believed God the Father even though he was dying and in old age. He was like 99 or 100 years old and believed for a Renewal of Youth and birthed a son Issac with Sarah. Abraham believed God and it was accounted it to him as righteousness. God told Abraham, I will make you a Father of all nations, tribes, tongues and people. We like Abraham must heed the Decrees and declare by Faith for all the promises of God. I claimed these kinds of promises like the renewal of youth and REAL Immortality (EL OLAM BLESSINGS). I look like I am 25 years old at age 40! These promises still exist today and are benefits that come from a Covenant with God our Father. We can exploit our age and live like 969 years like Methuselah. A true believer follows the ministry of miracles like Abraham. Regardless of what mistakes we make, God’s promise still comes to pass not through the Law of Moses, but by the hearing of Faith. His grace has made it all available. God had like 900 promises made to you! Maybe more! God takes the worst sinners and calls you friend because of Jesus!
Psalm 100:5
For the Lord is good; His mercy is everlasting, And His truth endures to ALL Generations.
Psalm 108:4
For Your mercy is great above the heavens, And Your truth reaches to the clouds.
Proverbs 3:3-4
New King James Version
3 Let not mercy and truth forsake you;
Bind them around your neck,
Write them on the tablet of your heart,
4 And so find favor and high esteem
In the sight of God and man.
Isaiah 16:5
In mercy the throne will be established; And One will sit on it in truth, in the tabernacle of David, Judging and seeking justice and hastening righteousness.”
Elijah, Aaron, Moses, and all the Old Testament Prophets and Priests are not the truth! They Point to Jesus! Jesus is our all sufficiency. He has sacrificed himself for every requirement and Law! He gave us many gifts that churches do not use today. You should take advantage of them and ask Big!
Micah 7:20
You will give truth to Jacob And mercy to Abraham, Which You have sworn to our fathers From days of old.
2 John 1:3
Grace, mercy, and peace will be with you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.
Psalm 86:15
But You, O Lord, are a God full of compassion, and gracious, Longsuffering and abundant in mercy and truth.
Genesis 24:27
And he said, “Blessed be the Lord God of my master Abraham, who has not forsaken His mercy and His truth
Psalm 25:5
Lead me in Your truth and teach me, For You are the God of my salvation; On You I wait all the day.
Murder is not Truth. Everyone has to have Jesus to be forgiven for their sins. Even an Evangelist is guilty of all sins too! An Evangelist is just a forgiven person who recieved the Grace of Jesus because Jesus paid for it! We do not owe a sin debt anymore! This is what ministry is about. Ministry is not about how many rules you kept.
Romans 6:20
When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness.
Romans 6:18
You have been set free from sin and have become slaves to righteousness.
Romans 6:15
Slaves to Righteousness
What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means!
God gives us the power to go and sin no more! He makes sin uninteresting. Can people make mistakes, yes they can. Will God blame you for murder? Not at all! Nail your sins on the cross! It is a free gift for all people regardless of what you have done!
Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.
Sin, Death, and it's effect has no hold over us as believers!
We are not slaves to sin anymore! We are not charged or guilty of Murder anymore!
1 Corinthians 15:55-58
55 “O Death, where is your sting?
O Hades, where is your victory?”
56 The sting of death is sin, and the strength of sin is the law. 57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that your labor is not in vain in the Lord.
2 Corinthians 1:3-5
Comfort in Suffering
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, 4 who comforts us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort those who are in any trouble, with the comfort with which we ourselves are comforted by God. 5 For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our [b]consolation also abounds through Christ.