History of WWI Primer 083: The Kropatschek Pt.2 Documentary
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- čas přidán 26. 08. 2018
- Special Thanks to Jaime Regalado
3D arsenal
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Othais and Mae delve into the story of this WWI classic. Complete with history, function, and live fire demonstration.
C&Rsenal presents its WWI Primer series; covering the firearms of this historic conflict one at a time in honor of the centennial anniversary. Join us every other Tuesday!
Additional reading:
Die Hand- und Faustfeuerwaffe der habsburgischen Heer
Erich Gabriel
Rivista di artiglieria e genio Anno 1888
Revue d’Artillerie
1875 - October
1878 - October
1879 - April
1880 - April
1883 - April
1885 - April
1885 - October
1886 - October
Gazette des Armes
344
347
383
391
Safe range space thanks to Triana Protection
Additional photos thanks to Rock Island Auction
Ammunition data thanks to DrakeGmbH
/ drakegmbh
Visit us at candrsenal.com
Or go further and support our channel at / candrsenal
Just have to say: in my humble opinion this is the single most intelligent and interesting - and therefore the best - channel on all of CZcams. Thanks for all the hard work, you guys!
That being said, britishmuzzleloaders and Forgotten Weapons get my hardy approval as well!
dfitch811 I love the amazing historical detail of the Primer episodes, contrasted to the practicality of Anvil.
I wish more history channels took this much time and effort into their productions.
Yup, if you want the history of a blasty stick or hand blasty nothing C&Rsnel😀
This channel is my warm blanket.
i guess I am kind of randomly asking but does anyone know a good website to stream newly released tv shows online ?
"History is DARK!" - Othais. 2018.
Next Tee shirt right there! :D
Historically, human on human crime has been rampant.
It's eerie to consider how many people have died from the actual antique firearms handled by this series. Especially those machine guns.
The pretty despicable antics of Europe during the age of Imperialism almost make one think WW1 was karmic payback for all they did...
History is indeed dark, and always far more complex than a simple overview makes it out to be.
+1 on 3D Arsenal. I just picked up some 7.65x53 snapcaps from them. The rounds are 3 D printed (duh) with a small rubber insert in the base. I was concerned about the rims snapping off when worked through the action, but after about 20 dry firings they show no signs of failure.
The beauty of the internet IS this sort of esoterica. Lumps like me can bask in useless information they never wanted to know and yet find fascinating.
Ok, let me get this whole thing strait. in 1876 the Siege of Plevna happens and gets everyone interested in repeaters except the US, who don't care, and Russia, who tell troops to stop being lazy and load faster. Then le French and ze Austrians start looking into the Kropatschek, but never get it to large scale issuance. In 1884 ze Germans adopt the 71/84 for everyone, a Serbian Mauser 80 with a Kropatschek magazine that was called an update to the 71 for state secrecy that was already compromised prior to adoption. Then in 1885 Portugal adopts a single shot for the line infantry the Kropatschek for specialty troops and then in 1886 for everyone after they decide they don't like the single shot which is chambered for an 8mm derivative of 11mm Gras and outdates every other magazine rifle due to how advanced the cartridge is. Then le French adopt the Lebel, a modified Gras with a Kropatschek magazine chambered for an 8mm derivative of 11mm gras but using smokeless powder making every gun ever obsolete, while ze Austrians adopt the Mannlicher 1886, a wedge locking straight pull with the en bloc clip that makes the Kropatschek magazine obsolete, resulting in every gun in the world being at least partially obsolete at the same time. Then in 1887 the Ottoman Empire adopt the 71/84 in 9.5mm, the best black powder cartrige of all according to Mauser, and it was obsolete the day it's adopted. Also in 1887 the Italians adopt the Vitali box magazine and charger clip for their Vetterlis, which compared fine with the Mannlicher magazine system, but still used black powder so it was still obsolete, and then they switched to smokeless powder but it was still outdated because 10.4mm wasn't small bore and the gun was still a Vetterli. In 1888 ze Austrians adopt the Mannlicher 88, using an 8mm round with compressed black powder because they didn't have any smokeless powder, making it less obsolete. Also in 1888, ze Germans released the Gewehr 88 which was an improved Gewehr 71/84 with an improved bi-directional Mannlicher magazine and the first form of the rimless 7.92 Mauser, which outdated the Mannlicher 88's unidirectional clip with its rimmed cartridge. Also also in 1888, the British adopt the Lee Metford in .303, which outdates everything because of its detachable box magazine and British plans to issue spare mags to the troops for rapid loading, but is still outdated itself because .303 is using black powder. Then in 1889 the Belgians adopt the Mauser 89 with its stripper clip that outdates everything again, except for the Lee's detachable magazine. Also in 89 the Japanese adopt the Murata Type 22 with an 8mm smokeless round and a tube magazine, which were obsolete on day one. In 1890 ze Austrians update the 88 to smokeless powder, although it was still outdated because the 88 wedge lock wasn't very strong, requiring a weak cartridge compared to everyone else. Also in 1890 le French adopt the Berthier using the Mannlicher magazine, which is outdated because it only uses a three shot clip and is only issued to specialty troops anyways. In 1891 the British bring themselves back up to date by introducing cordite, but not before re-outdating themselves by withdrawing the spare magazines for the Lee-Metford and forcing troops to single load once its empty. The Russians then adopt the Mosin Nagant also in 1891, which was a terrible rifle that was so well designed it almost worked, but was still terrible. Meanwhile, the US is still using a large bore black powder single shot rifle that is so out of date it isn't even funny. DID I FREAKING MISS ANYTHING???!!!
I'm surprised more careers weren't ended by this ungodly rimjam of a time period given how LITERALLY EVERYONE'S RIFLE IN 1891 WAS SOMEHOW OUTDATED OR OBSOLETE EXCEPT THE BELGIANS!!!
You know, that does sound like a pretty good summary of the whole time period. Really helps set the time line straight on the incredible series of changes happening at the time.
Carcano?
You should do that for a living. Sounds legit, literally funny. Do Star Wars! ;P
@@Sedan57Chevy FFFFFFFFFAMILY FRIENDLY COMMENT!!! FAMILY FRIENDLY COMMENT FOR A FAMILY FRIENDLY SHOW I FORGOT THE CARCANO!!!! SPORTERIZE IT!!!! (please don't actually sporterize it)
I don't think it really changes the observation about everyone being out of date in some way much though. Although it did get the job done and wasn't hard to make, it was far from perfect.
Also, I may or may not be overreacting for comedic effect...
@@andersbendsen5931 Thanks! Glad you liked it. Which one, Legends, G, or Disney?
Then again, Legends is a superset of G, so you can't really talk about Legends without it, like with The Trawn Trilogy and how the late 90s rewrite of the prequels section of G created continuity issues with TTT's dating and portrayal of the Clone Wars... That would actually be really hard and time consuming, come to think of it.
Also have I mentioned I'm a nerd yet?
Rear of Guedes trigger guard appears to act as a thick spring, to snap over a slot in the bottom metal. Opening the action smartly might bend/compromise its curvature, and its ability to positively lock the action shut. Only an observation
I ran across one of these today at a local gun shop. I was curious about it because I wasn't familiar with it. I found this series and now I think I will go back and add it to my collection. Thank you for your fantastic videos!
How’d you go?
Love the idea of tube loaders, they’re just neat
I got the standard infantry model about two months ago for $100 taxes and background check included. Good to know a little more other than it’s Portuguese! You guys rock!!
Great timing. The airing of this episode will probably increase its cash value
Good buy! Now good luck reloading your ammo. Word of warning. Don’t bother buying practice rounds on Gun Broker. You can’t reload them as the primer is WAY larger than what we use today.
I've been waiting for this one. Now my day's complete.
Fun Fact about the Kropatschek: The last time it was used in official combat by the portuguese was not against other europeans or natives africans, but against other portugueseman. Let me explain: On January 19th 1919, a monarchist revolt began in Porto, the major city of the North of Portugal, which was led by army officers and monarchist/catholic civilians. They were able to get the entire North of the country to revolt as well and this event became know as the Monarquia do Norte(Monarchy of the North). Many of the civilian militias that supported this counter-revolution were armed with everything from Double Barrel Shotguns, Mauser c96 pistol, and many of them were given Kropatschek rifles, in fact, the most famous photo of the revolt shows four militiamen in civilian clothing, two standing up and the two others kneeling, all armed with Kropatschek Infantry Rifles. Unfortunately, or fortunately, depending on your political position, the monarchists were defeated after 25 days of revolting, and never again was there an armed attempt to restor the monarchy.
30:27 - Portuguese guy here: Guarda Fiscal was our border patrol, in charge of controlling migrant influx and import tariffs. Much like US Customs and Border Protection.
I guess they stopped existing with the Schengen zone
Thanks Othias. Great history lesson. needing more on reloading this old soldier. Tip of my hat to Mae...the beautiful quiet one!!
Does anyone else stay up every other Monday to watch new C&Rsenals?
thegunpenguin No, because I live in the best time zone. ;)
I am glad I start late today
History at its nuanced best. Thanks for the intelligent detail.
I think the music track might be a bit too loud compared to the dialogue in this video
I have 4 Portuguese Kropatschek and they are my favorite steampunk guns.
At last, Kropatschek gets some recognition. Thank you! Great accent, by the way ☺
Mae's a sniper !, She nailed the Head shot's , Yeah I know ! The gun shot high , I'd probably have claimed I did it deliberately ! , Yet Another Most Excellent and informative Educational History lesson From Team C&R , Thanks folks !
Recently fell down the kropatchek rabbit hole, and man are they pretty
Obrigado!!
Damn. This episode is poetic in a way.
I often listen to these primarily, but you better believe I watch the end of the "War Were Declared" segments.
Best way to start my day off is with some c&rsenal :)
Kind of a slick rifle!
Othais, the king of ASMR
Dalton Bruce *in a whispery voice*
“WAR WERE DECLARED”
Oh man that rifle is just plain beautiful
5 years later ❤
WOW! @ 34:30👍... lol- been watching for a long time hoping to see a "head-shot" target... Good show, Mae! I used to get marked down in dep't quals for being a smart@$$ and "signing" my last target of the day like that instead of CoM....
As always, an excellent pres (1&2) on the Kropatschek rifle. Slow to reload but a good rifle....
Oh Thank God, War Were Declared. My sanity is safe for another episode.
Mae's face whilst Othais waxes. Classic. Cool episode
It took you 18 min to bring the lovely Mae out!!! So good seeing her enjoying herself.
thanks for including a bit of colonial african history in this, it’s easily the most overlooked region when it comes to world history. to anyone who finds it offensive i always say what my high school history teacher told me - “History is politically incorrect.” cheers ^^
I like the sad cello music during the darker parts of the history
That tea sounded delicious. ☕️
No Crozier driver, mechanic, or refueler listed in the credits?
;-)
Falls under the category "Othais Wrangler".
*gasps in Portuguese*
Mr S *Lays down ultimatum in English*
You guys keep teasing a Lebel revisit. And I keep not seeing it. WANT.
Dawn Alderman that might be waiting for a dry period when there’s not many guns left to cover, and the ones that are left are made of unobtanium.
I stopped collecting boulders with Mundane Matt for this.
Same
Wonderfull video! Thanks for the great work. Just 1 idea, if you are upgrading some episodes can please insert informations about the bayonets? At the time nobody think of bayonets as optional or gadgets like today.
Does Jay Taylor make your ammo? Is brass finally available or did he use obsolete Winchester cartridges like I had to use. Thanks again for another great video.
YAY!!!!!
People forget how much advancement was going on in the late 1800's early 1900's for all mechanical engineering and things happening in one industry would indirectly affect another because someone would look over and say to them selves hey that idea might work with over here too. Many of these rifles produce around 1900 could not have been produce in 1800 for no other reason then the metal work was not yet to the quality required.
I have a few Kropatschek's in my collection and one is very interesting. It seems to be a shortened infantry rifle but with a new front sight on it, has anyone seen something similar to that? Please let me know.
Oh my god, this video drops the day my kropatschek is arriving! Ooooooohh joooooooooyyyyyyyy
Hi, A very interesting history of this pivotal rifle and brilliantly put together, you both are very engaging. Do you have any information about the numbering system used on the short rifle. I have an all matching example that only has a numeric serial with no alpha prefix but I can't see yhat any other example is like this. Any ideas?
Yay, the rifle we just adopted is state of the art!...for about a year.
Not the only country in that hole. This gun could at least fire smokeless powder unlike the Italian’s Vetterli.
AND, Mae is back @ 33 min :D
Hey, I was wondering if you could do a video on how the bolt handle itself has evolved.
Great episode arc. Sorry I am a little late (had fence to build).
Did you finish?
Enough to get the dirt guy in whenever it quits raining. I still have to build three gates, but I am going to wait until the shop is up to start that.
...gotta wait to see it in person, but from pix & descriptions a bud of a bud has one dated 1886 in primo condition...matching numbers - belonged to his dad - whom I suspect got it in the early/mid 60s...first one I've 'seen' in captivity
Blueberry when?
Blueberry or RIOT!!! =D
Just bought my first one (still has the handguard). It's a beautiful rifle and i got it for a damn good deal. E
Not sure if anybody has asked this before but are you guys loading your black powder cartridges with a modern smokeless black power substitute? Reason I ask is that when Mae shoots them I don't believe I'm seeing as much smoke as I would expect with back powder.
This was converted to smokeless with a weaker charge in service, so they're using that loading data.
Where do you come up with all these old soundtracks??? I'd image they're EXTREMELY difficult to find...
When did you start using a background music track? That completely threw me - I thought I'd left a radio on somewhere in the house! LOL I'm not sure you need it. Very interesting rifle, thank you.
They started a few episodes ago and it drives me crazy, I can't stand it. I'm close to unsubscribing because I can't watch these like I like to, kicked back and relaxed, because the music breaks the peace too much.
Really....I didn't notice.
The background radio music in the young girl fire scenes is portuguese popular music from the end XIX beginnings XX century.
I'm a bit confused about the numbers of Kropatschek weapons received by Portugal. You guys state that there were 22.000 infantry rifles (António Telo and Mário Álvares say 46.000 initialy contracted; I suspect 40.000 infantry rifles, 3.000 Navy rifles and 3.000 Caçadores Carbines), 9.000 Caçadores carbines (they say 3.000), 3.000 cavalry carbines (they say "maybe around 4.000), 4.800 Fiscal Guard carbines (they agree with you here, received in 1889) and 1.000 more for the Navy in the end of the century. Could you clarify the subject for us? P.S. - it's about time for Mr Jaime Regalado to write a book about the Kropatschek...
All I can say is I found 3 references for numbers but many left out whole models. Ragalado was my most trusted source but he has been rather slow to respond lately so I had to go with the notes I had. Nothing is solid in this ep, hence the constant disclaimer
It's so weird seeing a small bore black powder rifle
Surely the offset sights are to accommodate the drift resulting from high velocity smokeless powder. Lok at other rifles of the period. The carbine would have been intended for shorter range, therefore less sights adjustment. Shooting high because minimum sights setting is about 200 yards.
The politics behind all these guns (not just the Kropatchek, but all the guns discussed on this channel) might be more interesting then the guns themselves.
Wonder if there is a shortened carbine version with the handle turned slightly up (like a SMLE bolt) and back by 20⁰?...as in a privately purchased carbine?
"There's a handguard... That's it, that's all the changes."
Did not know about the handguard variation m1886/99...same as with the German Gew98/17 variation.
What is the latest development on the Kropatschek story?...a book?
Thank you
3:27 The fact that you have to say "don't get mad at me for stating historical truths" makes me very worried for this country.
you should have been worried long ago
And also almost All of the " Modern , Western , Developed , 1st " World , Sh , don't repeat that or some people will be Offended ! , I'm British so , I have "Free Speech " I Think ?
I always heard the handguard upgrade was the 1886/89, but Othias says /99. Which is correct?
I think you spelled Kropatschek wrong in the thumbnail. Don't know if that is an easy fix, but hopefully it is.
Where are you getting this portuguese musics from?
17:57 does anybody know the name of the song that plays while she’s shooting?
This is the way I wanted to start my birthday!
I find it strange that the Kropatschek carbines can carry five rounds, while Lebel carbines can carry only three
Othias is such a Gat tease! Keeps flashing that Martini :( :( :(
Whoa
Rear aperture sight on a split bridge rifle?
Mae was in rare form today. "Stacking solo cups" lol
Othias quote to take away from this video is "Butterfly farts"
We want Crozier eating his blueberries hehehe greetings from sLOVEnia
Hey guys, could you paint the bullets in a different color than the case? It would be far easier to identify
The Brazilian Navy also operated the kropatschek from 1885 on 11mm grass, which became obsolete only 1 year later when the Portuguese developed the smokeless powder version. So we also adopted the new version that also became obsolete with the acquisition by the army of the gewer 88 with vertical loader. Curiously, the Navy adopted a repeating weapon before the army, which until then used the comblain.
Navies being early adopters seems to be something of a theme in these weapons of WWI videos.
@@ItsMrAssholeToYou the mentality of the time was that the naval troops, being outnumbered, needed to compensate with greater firepower, especially in the landings
@@brunoseno7827
Oh sure, I know. Another factor is navies had similar importance to regular armies, and thus weren't too grossly under-funded; and since their small-arms demands were much smaller, they had more flexibility in what they were allowed to purchase.
Sweet, Mae is back again @ 47 min ;)
Music is too loud and it’s annoying it does not go with what you’re saying, I know you’ve probably already heard this two years ago but I’m just getting this now, the information is wonderful and second to none , thanks 👍
Thank you for another great episode but, please, please kill the music over speech....
Imagine a Kropatschek that loads underneath, like a shotgun. That and two locking lugs. Yeah, imagine that story.
Outstanding work again... how fat is Crozier on those blueberries? :)
hello, do you know a book that talks about Portuguese kropatschek?
Embelishment in Portugal it is Very comum
soryy Gag I Jump to may shooting so miss 30 mintues of Film But Width 2:30:00 Total over 2 Ep's Great work. Saw Carbine first then Looking for Long Rifle
Caçadores isnt that bad considering they also called their rifles as mosquetão/mosquetões to resemble muskets
Guilherme A. L. Reason why it’s so negative is because the game “Fallout New Vegas” where there are gigantic tarantula hawk wasps called cazadors. The cazador is mostly known for it being a massive annoyance due to the lethal poisons.
15:00 Casadores... New Vegas?
I hate those stingy poisonous asshats!
LOUDcarBOMB SHOOT IT! SHOOT IT NOOOOOOWWWW
Aim for the wings
Formalpainter65 personally, I use a hunting shotguns and the “stay back!” Perk to keep it away. Also it’s hilarious in that it is able to kill anything if enough rounds are available.
Caçadores, hunters :3
Eh, sleep can wait...
My thought exactly.
Right
Can sleep plenty when your dead!
War were declared... with music!
...anyone else notice that Martini on the wall is cocked?
Just in case he stumbles upon a rapscallion
Should have gone with "cazadores won my corazon" tbh
“The king before the king” comment made me think of Saul the king before David
Come to think of it, this thing looks like a Lebel and a Martini-Henry had a little rifle-baby.
You speek better portuguese then many brazilian.
I often wonder how Africa might have looked today had Europe not colonized it. Would it basically be chaotic territory with innumerable tribe/city-states? Would Ethiopia, Morocco, Egypt and other more established African states have conquered south? Or would they have consolidated from within?
Probably a bit each methinks.
Also it's interesting that the colonial era is seen as so bad and shameful, when it was really no different that what countries had been doing to others throughout the entirety of human history. Like when the Ilkhanate came in and destroyed Persia and said we're in charge now... except they didn't have cameras and newspapers and a burgeoning global network in the 1200's... Plus it really wasn't long after colonialism that times and attitudes 'a changed, and the world went from the "old ways" to the Cold War.
Ok but what if that highly modern tube loader had a kings gate? There is an advantage to being able to top off the mag without opening up the action.
Macaque12 look up the Remington Keene
@@poppasquat8483 ok? Thats not what they described at all as far as a forward thinking bolt action with a tube mag so i'm not sure why you told me to look at it.
The Keene had a loading gate that allowed you to top off the mag without working the bolt
Are 8x60r dies still available ?
Yes.
And war were declared once more!
Mae casadores has your heart-adores?