Best Strategy for Newbie Audiophile Systems
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- čas přidán 12. 09. 2024
- Start by listening to as many types of speakers as you can: boxes, panels, open baffles, omni directionals, horns, etc. Speaker reviews may raise awareness of speaker types, but you gotta listen for yourself to what's out there.
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I started with a reel-to-reel Tape Recorder with a pair of Koss Headphones, then got speakers second. Headphones can provide really fine quality at a good price point and remove issues of speaker placement and electronics for driving speakers. For a young Freshman in College majoring in music with an extremely limited budget this was my best case compromise entry in the universe of the audiophile.
Good advice Steve! As always, your comments help newbies avoid the pitfalls many of us went through so many years ago.
Be well everyone and Stay Safe.
If more people listened to more music there would be less COVID-19 issues. 🤔😉
Amen Brother !
You Can't Get What You Want, Til You Know What you want - Joe Jackson
⭐⭐⭐⭐⭐
Since the demise of Audio Stores. most people can't try different speakers. You're stuck w/ what you buy & hope you like it.
And you can't really rely on reviews, with rare exception all the reviewers love everything they review.
So dead on. I hate it, hate it, hate it. That goes for any kind of speakers. I have a small recording studio for extra money. Got ready to buy some decent studio monitors and ran into the same thing. The local guitar shops have VERY limited options to actually listen to. thousands of dollars for set of monitors without being able to listen to them first! Extremely daunting task to say the least. Sure you can send them back “free of charge” within whatever time limit. But it’s a major pain in the ass. It’s not a little stuffed animal or something you can throw in a box and send on it’s way. Same with vinyl equipment. There are very few stores located only in large cities across the country in which you can actually test these expensive items out before making the big decision. Really sucks.
There are still plenty of stores where you can compare speakers. Even if you dont live near stores, it's well worth traveling for a day/weekend to s place that has stores. No need to buy without listening. And if spending a lot for speakers, it's well worth the trip.
@@zaoria123 Yep, I've made the same argument plenty of times and people still pretend that driving a couple of hours to avoid a one to ten thousand dollar mistake is too much to ask. Oh well. All you can do is offer decent advice. Can't make anyone take it though.
@@allstopblue5717 Last place I`d go to buy hi fi speakers is a guitar shop.I had a pair of speakers I took to one who was a Marshall dealer.I got told they couldn't get woofers to replace my old ones as they were 11 inch.Luckily I found a speaker builder close by who replaced them on the spot.The other idiot didn't take the metal rims of the measure them.
One other consideration is the room you're going to put it all into. The speaker/room interaction is critically important for your choice of speaker, so have at least a basic understanding of where your likely listening position will be, and whether it would make sense to buy towers vs. bookshelves etc.
Great point! The room is one of the most important considerations for speakers. You can always add acoustic treatments and apply software correction, but it's much better to buy speakers that fit your room first.
The room can be treated and is a constant , but once you buy a set of speakers, you want to stay with them and not sell them .
Agree! That's where it starts. I would love to have a pair of LRS and build a system around them - but they will never work in my room. So before I find a pair of speakers, I must first become aware of what kind of sound I am looking for and gain knowledge about how this sound can be realized in my room. Maybe the starting point will then not be speakers, but room treatment.
@@aabuahro However, not all rooms can be treated to fit every speaker. You must have a qualified idea of what conditions your room sets
Try this: Go on youtube. Like you are right now and if your CZcams plays through your system then find a video that plays a 60hz test tone wave length. While it's playing walk around your room. You'll find out right away areas where the roll off is.
This sounds great, but about 20 years ago I became completely enthralled with an amplifier. A 2 watt single ended triode amp that I built myself. It took me until the last couple of years to find a speaker that was full range that could be powered by this amp, and I had to build that speaker myself. If you are newly descending into the madness that is audiophilia, let me warn you now, there is no end. You will never be satisfied, and your system will never be static, at least not for long. You WILL have fun, after all it is a hobby.
What is the sensitivity of the speakers you made?
@@saltysoysauce954 It is a three way, tri-amped system using Altec theater parts. I use a ribbon tweeter at 93db/w/m, the midrange is a compression driver with 203b horns at 115db/w/m, and the bass is a 515b 15" driver at 105db/w/m. At my normal listening levels, I calculate I use 1 to 10 milliwatts on the horn, about 10X that on the woofer, 10 to 100 milliwatts and the tweeter takes 1 to 1.5 watts but that is powered by an 8 watt single ended transistor amp.
Absolutely you can go broke with this hobby do what's best for you. me too of the line onkyo with klipsch floor model with the double 8s classic Teac. cd/cassette so I can tape my 100s cassettes over the years I'm good set up in a small cave.👌🍷
Way back when I was looking to put together a system there was lot's of audio stores with so many brands to listen to. This was about 1979. Speakers were the first thing I wanted , I had a intergrated amp and a turntable from Radio shack that would eventually be replaced but I wanted my first set of really good speakers,so every weekend my friend and I went out to listen .I allways brought the same three albums for reference .We did this allmost every weekend for about a year. Being only 21 years old you didn't get much respect and some times had to corner a salesman to get him demonstrate the systems for you.My buddy was my second set of ears I trusted his opinion . It was a great learning experience and a good deal of fun. Infinity, Bose, ESS,Allison,Cerwin Vega, Mission, Castle Acoustics, Magnepan,Kef, and many more. Almost went for the Kef 105.2's but had one more place to go and that was the only Klipsch dealer in town.I and my pal were blown away . That was close to 40 years ago now and I STILL listen to my Klipshorns daily. Radio shack stuff is gone but served me well until I upgraded.
Definitely agree with this way of building a system. I would however add one of my own thoughts which is to spend a reasonable amount of time predicting what features you want and the number of inputs and outputs you may need not only at present but in the future as well before you purchase your preamp. I found this planning to be critical over the years to avoid having to purchase an additional preamp(s) for lack of of thinking ahead about possible future needs.
Years back I didn't know about home theater by passing. That turns out to be a big deal if you want your system to serve multiple purposes.
Rescue Stereo -- Speakers First. I got my Dad's old Dahlquist DQ-10's for 'free' but it cost close to $500 for new capacitors and woofers. I then had to find an amplifier powerful enough to drive them to potential. Local was important (shipping weight) and a local tech. Found a dead Harman/Kardon Citation 5.1 (a 'brick with a click') which once recapped totally brought it back to life. That totaled $800. Bought Parasound pre-amps new (about $400) . . . vintage Pioneer turntable ($275). My old Motorola Bluetooth receiver and an XM SkyFi . . . and CD's through my computer as well as streaming audio. Also have a SONY minidisc deck to record albums to digital. I drive the DQ-10's to almost live levels, 80-90dB at 3 meters, and the sound is incredible. No harsh highs (but you have to have well-produced recordings!) and the bass response is fine. So, $2000 for a killer stereo system . . . vintage to classic to modern.
I loved my DQ-10's!
I had a friend with a pair of these that needed new surrounds for them. He bought an aftermarket surround replacement kit and fixed them himself (had never done it before) and now they sound like new. Great sounding speakers!
@@jimgardiner1558 That's what I was going to do. I found my Mom using them with the woofers flapping around. But, she (having no faith in me) took them first to a local tech who removed the Advent/Dahlquist woofers, kept them, and put in some guitar amp speakers!!!!!
So, had to buy new woofers from Simply Speakers that were purported to be to Advent/Dahlquist spec.
I did do a complete recap job myself . . . Regnar DQ's (Solens?) and a couple Jantzen Superior caps.
The speakers are incredible. Buttery, but crisp highs, good bass (my sound analyser picks up some bass in the 20s-30s) and the DQ-10 holographic sound stage.
Recently bought a basic Sony Receiver and Speakers for less than 300$ because they were on sale, I was surprised at how good they are. Fits my budget and didn't have to spend a fortune to get quality sounding music. Since it's my first, I don't have anything to compare it with, but I am assuming the expensive ones must sound 10x better. But as a grad school student, this will suffice for now.
Right on target Steve! Yes, starting with the speakers also as you mentioned (thank you), helps direct you to the amps. It makes amp shopping a little easier. It also depends, sometimes if one starts with speakers and they get the speakers they want, they may find that they don't need to get a suitable amp because what they have already sounds good to them. Also, if the sound is not exactly the flavor you want, starting with good speakers makes it easier to wait and save up for the amp. After the speakers and amp, things really open up because there is even less difference between sources than amps and speakers. As for source its whatever you fancy. Also, don't forget the room, which I would address before shopping for an amp and the rest. It doesn't have to mean spending hundreds on room treatments either. After all is said and done though it comes down to the recording, garbage in / garbage out. No amount of money or any piece of gear can make a bad recording sound good.
All that said though sadly, there is a problem that confronts both newbies and veterans alike and it started even before Covid. The problem is actually experiencing speakers. Thanks to the internet and now covid, that is impossible. In home demo of speakers while everyone's dream is not possible for most folks. The hassle of shipping alone is not worth it.
Sadly, this is a problem with no answer except to go back to the way it was, which was good...that is if Covid was not living with us, so that dream is also unthinkable now.
I remember I once called Magnepan to ask them what amps they recommend with their speakers. Unfortunately, the conversation was not all that useful. I could definitely tell the person I talked to was holding out on me, probably for the reason that Steve mentions. In retrospect, I feel I should have asked them which amps they voice their speakers with and which amps they demo them with in house and at shows. I probably would have gotten a lot further.
Indeed. The FAQ section of their website has the question, What is the best amplifier for Magneplanars?
The answer: We can't make specific recommendations because WE DONT KNOW.
They only say to look for direct-coupled, class A-B designs with high current capability.
Used to be Bryston?
@@carlitomelon4610 That's the classic combo. However, I couldn't even get them to admit that during the phone conversation.
My journey started with Integrated Amp and Turntable and 3-way DIY tower speakers. This allowed me to guiltlessly tweak the speakers while upgrading electronics (Pioneer Integrated->HK Integrated->Sony ES Receiver->Pioneer Elite Receiver). Eventually I bought some ADS bookshelf speakers to go with my first Pioneer SA-6500 integrated amp, and was happy with that combination for several years. Upgraded the electronics to the HK PM650 and was even happier. Eventually 5.1 surround sound became the standard config (for those that could only have one active system), and the ADS speakers migrated to the rear channels and the DIY towers with 12" woofers came took over the front channels. Now I am taking the leap to replace the DIY speakers with the Tekton Design Double Impacts.
With all that said, I would recommend that you start with the thing that gets you most excited. You clearly have to have enough other pieces to handle the full audio reproduction chain, and as a beginner some pieces will be placeholders. Some audiophiles are gear tweakers and others are speaker tweakers, so if you feel like you are going to be rotating out your speaker more frequently then the rest, you should probably invest in a stable set of electronics that you are going to live with for a long time.
Absolutely correct - Any audio component, regardless of make, model or price, is only as good as the speakers connected to them.
I would wholeheartedly agree. Speaker design, power requirements first.
I completely agree with you, which to me means a lot. It Just goes to show how much I have learned over the past few months from you and other reliable reviewers. Thank you for everything, Steve.
I'm the guy Steve is talking about in this video. I'm the guy who has spent thousands on electronics but until recently never had speakers that were on the same level.
I once thought "garbage in / garbage out" hence source first. That nothing further down the line can do anything to help what was missing prior. But speakers are so much fun and characterful. Room hifi demands speaker hifi first, details are almost always better in headphones. But there's also the gut feeling from woofers where main left and right stereo speakers ride the lager waves of the woofer.
Speakers always have been and always will be the single most important component to any Hifi system or Hometheater system. Hope you have found worthy speakers my friend.
I have found that high-quality electronics (and cables) with inexpensive speakers can actually sound pretty good - if you use the right inexpensive speakers. You can at least clearly hear the defects of whatever speakers you have, and let you know where you need improvement.
vinyl1Earthlink good, but not great.
It makes sense because even cheap speakers (like the KEF LS50 for example) sound amazing... cheap amps OTOH sound horrible.
In my case, my audiophile journey started with the source, a turntable. For months have been reading and watching reviews from many channels, saw and listened to a bunch of different models to finally start with a Rega Planar. In the beginning it sound GREAT in my basic/generic home theater, but time goes by, I was in a need for a more impactful and detailed sound, and that basic system wasn’t able to deliver it. So, my next step was to choose a speak that could deliver all of this, and again I watched a lot of reviews of different models and, after your amazing reviews about the Klipsch RP 600m, my starting point to build a system was that speaker! Even if I bought the source first, I agree that it makes much more sense to start with a speaker that have more apeal to you than spending money first with an amplifier and get stuck with its limitations. Thanks for another great video Steve!
Too right the thinking has swung back and forth over the years: it was Source First when I started out. As in: cartridge, tonearm, turntable, phonostage ... blahblahblah oh yeah, and speakers - last. I still think like that, sort of, which isn't to quarrel with Steve's argument which makes good sense. The main thing in my opinion for anyone starting out is not to go at it like a ram at a gate. Give the whole project plenty of thought, do your research, don't get bounced into rash purchases - and enjoy the process.
Very good advice. 25 years ago I built my Davis DIY speakers first and after that tested several amplifiers at a local dealer. With the Rotel RC/RB 870BX amplifiers with Van Den Hul interconnects pure magic happened. Still, at every session, I am overwhelmed by the sound quality. Never felt any need to change anything apart from streaming.
Steve is giving you the best advice anybody ever will - speakers first. You might kick yourself if you don't.
No hurry though as there's a huge variety out there. All different shapes, sizes, and technologies.
I have 35 year old Bose 301 II’s. When properly placed in the room, they still sound amazing.
Michael Chavez : that’s the good thing about speakers and another reason buying good speakers first is smart. Speakers can last a lifetime. Electronics probably not. Source types change also. I don’t have cassettes any longer but I still have the speakers those tapes played on.
Hi Steve, Finally after months of listening to many advises, watching reviews of what speakers or amps to buy, this is the first time I heard a very sound and logical strategy/advice of how to start this audiophile system. I'm about to buy my first set of amps and speakers, but I believe i have to postponed it for awhile. So glad that I subscribed to your channel.
Time to search that good speaker :D
Thank you so much!, IDOL!!!
God bless!!!
Build it from both ends toward the middle. Speakers match with amps, sources match with preamps. If you don't get the info from the source, a speaker won't "correct" for that deficiency. Preamps and amps are pretty good at matching to each other.
Good advise and I agree with the order of acquiring the equipment. But, I suggest that setting an overall budget is the first step.
I would start with the speaker/amp as the base for the sound. Because choosing the speaker first, means that you then lock yourself into only a certain type of amp working with the speaker, giving yourself a more limited choice.
So if you choose a horn speaker, you most likely will only then be able to get 1% of the amps out there to sound really good on it.
Hi Steve, totally agree, of all audio components the sonic signature of a loud speaker varies the most, and for this reason they are the most difficult component to live with. When you find a speaker you like, it's a relatively simple matter to match with amplifiers and source components, and to fine tune with cables, filters, conditioners etc. I have been using a pair of Audio Note model K's for 25 years and love em! Thoroughly enjoy your reviews as you look at the full gamut from budget to exotica, no audiophile snobbery here! PS I'm still on my quest for the ultimate low powered (low cost) amplifier as to my ears they just sound better.
Great advice! Other reasons why I would start with the speaker, is the room where they will be placed in is a determining factor, along with the music that you will be primarily listening to and how you like it sound. If you buy a speaker that cannot possibly by its design satisfy these factors, or, parameters, the money spent on the components up the chain will never get you there and might possibly be wasted until you change your speakers, assuming that there are speakers out there that will satisfy your listening demands that would work with those components.
Wow, Steve! You nailed it. I wish that I'd heard this sage advice, years ago, as I'd have a lot more money in my pocket for buying LP's instead of equipment. I bow to your great wisdom, Good Sir.
I think you should take your housing situation into account also before deciding on speaker type. If you own a house and don’t plan on moving and have the room for panel speakers, go ahead. If you rent, maybe those panel speakers aren’t a great idea. Your next place may not have enough room to properly pull them away from the wall. I rent so I purchased the new Elac debut reference because they are front ported and very forgiving on placement. They are pretty great by the way.
Getting an NAD amplifier first is a must. All your speakers and all your DACs will work flawlessly with an NAD amplifier. All your turntables and all your phono preamps will work great with it. Just try it and then thank me later with a hundred dollar bill.
I bought a Klipsch Reference series surround speakers (RC3, RF3 x2, and RS3 x2, back in Y2K and swapped out the rest of my older equipment accordingly.
Great advice! I have been hodge podging my system together over the years, and am ready for a plan.
Here's my reasoning for thinking you should start with the source. It can take years to build a good system. During that time you need to be acquiring music. So you need to know whether you want to focus on vinyl, reel-to-reel tapes, CDs, or digital files. Unless you have experience with some decent sources, you can't make an informed choice
I agree mate. I'm buying a rega p6... And have no idea what to buy In terms of amp and speakers... But I agree the front end is the start.. Surely
Room first, speakers second. Room: size, volume, ratio.. Room is de first big loudspeaker.
not so important if you do near field listening...
Well, normally the room ist given, so no choice. But the speakers of course should fit the room.
I think when I began to be interested and spend money on stereo equipment, I looked for a receiver or integrated amplifier as my starting point. I reasoned all things are limited by this juncture, and even if something equivalent to a LRS or Elac Debut 2.0 speakers were available, I was willing to wait on speakers and use headphones (albeit not high end) until I could afford better speakers.
I'm far more inclined to agree with your assessment, because it can save a lot of money and frustration in the long run.
I think I was fortunate. I became intrigued with this as a hobby. I was willing to experiment. I often sold off equipment, sometimes at a profit.
What's more of a challenge now are the lack of high quality stores where you can go in and hear things first hand to compare. Yes, there are limitations with what their other equipment is, and the acoustical environment. It did at least give a relative comparison.
This is a good video to watch and learn from.
When I bought my first set of speakers, Klipsch Reference RB61IIs, I was lucky enough to take advantage of three different amplifiers with those and they always sounded better and better. I agree a good set of speakers will form your journey down the line.
Great video!!!! I wish I had known this before I built my current system. But I ended up doing it by accident. I realized after I bought my speakers, my integrated amp at the time was awful with my new speakers. After experimenting with other preamps and amps, I finally found another integrated amp that finally matched my speakers. I could have saved a lot of time (and money) if I had seen this first.
i agree to a point, i believe the speakers first but they should be bought with the amp as you may buy speakers that are hard to drive or just require a more expensive amp then you could afford. Speakers and amps should have synergy. if you buy speakers on-line those manufactures will provide compatible amps. everything else comes later. also keep in mind what inputs you are going to need.
As Julian Hirsch used to say "The speaker has the hardest job in the audio chain . It converts an electronic signal to an audio signal." You make perfect sense when you recommend speaker first.
New to the hobby consider horns and you can use most any amplifier SET SS Class d horns don't get obsoleted they don't fail in use and hold values. Great for a new audiophile. You can upgrade around the horn or even upgrade the horn itself.
Ten years ago I started with the cheap (but great) Pioneer speakers you recommend. I wasn't even into CZcams then, but I ran them with just my A/V receiver from Yamaha. Last year I purchased the Klipsch RP-6000F and boy, are they something else! Many levels above anything I've ever owned. Now I'm looking for a good amplifier from around 1980. I'm looking to spend no more than $500 on one, but I want a full analog experience!
100% agree and this doesn’t just apply to newbies. Also to realize there’s no one perfect system. Fit it in your budget and lifestyle.
Awesome advice, Steve. I am fairly new audiophile. I started to become one during my freshman year of college. I did some of mistakes you mentioned in video sadly when I was setting up my audio system. I did watch your 500 budget build video, which your the recommendations actually gave somewhere to start. I bought a Yamaha R-S202 reciever, Teac W-1200 Tape deck, Teac TN 300 turntable, and a pair Polk T-15(but later on replaced them with a pair Klipsch R51M). I kind of regret getting a Teac W-1200, wish I had put that money to a cheaper vintage deck and nicer speakers. I wanted a new reliable tape deck, and have had terrible reliability issues with used vintage decks.
You brought up an interesting point when you said that a speaker manufacturer might not want to recommend an amp for fear that some dealers might be ''offended'' since they don't carry that brand. One of the biggest challenges with building a system is being able to audition (mix and match) different components that aren't all available from the same dealer. A good dealer should do his homework and carry components that bring out the best of each other instead of just proposing random gear.
I'm sure some of your recommendations might create controversy, but this one is absolutely true in my own experience.
I'm so happy you made this video. I have been watching reviews and looking at products and didn't know where to start. Now moving forward I need to find some show rooms to get my ears on some speakers. I still have a lot of interest in Klipsch and Teckton speakers, just don't know what brand and what speaker would work best for my needs. Thanks for the great advice.
You are absolutely on the right track.
Please check out KEF. (Yes, I guess I'm a fanboy, lol), but I feel I am have serious justification for my admiration!
You can call ERIC ALEXANDER OF TEXTON OR STEVE DECART OF DECWARE AND THEY WILL ACTUALLY TALK WITH YOU ON THE PHONE! ACTUALLY, THOSE 2 COMPANIES MAKE A GREAT SPEAKER/ AMP COMBINATION. IMHO.
Well went to the only hifi shop around town today and first and front they had KEF they guy geeked out with me for a few hours. Listened to KEF, the JBL L100 classics and a few other speakers. The JBL sounded great and so did the KEF LS50 for the size of those little guys. For the price the KEF are nice but I still wish I had a place to listen to Tekton design.
@@Omegafaction Those are all very efficient speaker's! Just order the DOUBLE IMPACTS. THE WIFE WILL GET USED TO THEM IN NO TIME, esp. WHILE LISTENING TO REMASTERED PINK FLOYD. ;)
Wish I had known to get good speakers first. But no one taught me anything about audio or stereo systems. Hell growing up no one even taught me how to handle records or how to clean them or store them properly. Nothing. Had to learn it all myself even with all the people around me who listened to records. But I'm learning & slowly getting there.
good speakers will merely show up the shortcomings of your amp and source
So many good speakers to choose from with so many speaker companies claiming to be the best sounding in their price class. Actually it’s good we have this kind of competition otherwise we would have some pretty crappy sounding speakers.
Lucky enough to have room for a variety -Ohm Walsh 4.5 (4s upgraded to 5000 drivers), Dahlquist DQ-10, Quad ESL (57s), ZU Omen DWs, Infinity Reference Six, Bose 901, large Advents.
I like vintage sculptural speakers and was lucky to find the Ohms for $300, the Dahlquist for $150, free Advents and FREE QUADS! My neighbor had them and they had been in the factory crate for thirty years. He knew only a nut like me would take on the restoration. The Quads, Ohms and the Dahlquist were not cheap to upgrade (thousands each), but they all sound and look great and pretty sure they will hold their value. I love them all, but may cull the herd a bit and sell the ZUs, the Infinities and the Bose. Those Quads and Dahlquist take up some space.
I used to always say speakers first. And it's true. But the one thing that will truly improve sound, right away: A DAC.
Another great video Steve! It’s sad and unfortunate that most music lovers don’t have the budget/time/knowledge/interest to figure out what speakers would work best in their room, and then purchase the amp/preamp that matches well with those speakers, and then get the right source component to make it all sing.
I think Steve's got it right.
The converse also seems to be true: Few things will teach you the value of selecting the right speakers quite like buying the *wrong* speakers (for you). DAMHIK And the *right* speaker for you has a lot to do with what you *listen* to. Manufacturers (and their volunteer and hired pundits) will have you believe that, for example, their $17K Golden Membrane 9000 speaker set will work miracles with anything from metal to solo piano. It won't. And, once you realize that, next you will find that changing to the Accelerated Electron 17GBFD Mark III amplifier won't make your 9000's do it very well, either.
*Speakers are musical instruments,* no matter how much you pay for them. Type of music, first. Type of room, second. Speaker~instruments, third. Speaker~instrument placement, fourth. Electronics to make your speaker/instruments sound like they should, after that.
Bankruptcy lawyers will come of their own accord....
-Just one man's observation.
Ain’t that the truth?
A good speaker is not an instrument. It's a transducer that reproduces all instruments and voices. It should not favor one type of music over another. I listen to a lot of different genres of music and could not live with a speaker that, say, loves Mozart but can't handle the Rolling Stones or Joan Baez with just her guitar. There are very neutral sounding speakers out there. A person should look into one, as music tastes can change over time, and you want a speaker that does them all well.
Dave
@@gurdyman1 Except if you mainly listen to Joan Baez and her guitar, why would you spend big money attempting to reproduce the bottom octave (~16 to 32 Hz)? If you mainly listen to heavy metal, you’re not going to appreciate what Quad ESSs bring to the table. It really is horses for courses.
@@gurdyman1 No one said speakers are like composers or artists, except maybe you. If you ever find a speaker that is truly "neutral," buy a million of them and sell them for 3x what you paid. If you only "say" they are neutral, just buy a pair. ;)
@@jonathansturm4163 A person's taste in music may change a lot in a short time. Mine sure did. A speaker should be able to do a credible job with all of them. If a person knows exactly what kind of music they want to hear and never plans on branching out, I suppose bying something that only does that type well, but I think it better to get one that plays them all well, just in case. Either way, the speaker shouldn't be a musical instrument, as an instrument colors the music. A speaker that adds a wooden sound might sound great on acoustic guitars and violins, but would sound bad trying to reproduce brass horns or pipe organ, which should never sound wooden.
Dave
I agree. When I decided on my Dali Oberon 5, the rest of the system was easy to figure out upstream: Cambridge AXA35, Marantz CD 6006, Sony S5500 BR player into Cambridge Dacmagic 100, Pro-Ject Debut III with Sumiko Pearl cartrige.
This is so interesting. I grew up in the UK and reading What HiFi mag in the 70s/80s they had the complete opposite philosophy. Given a 500 UKP budget, they'd advocate $350 on the turntable (usually the Linn Sondek), 80 UKP on a NAD 2030 and the balance on speakers. Anything else was "garbage in-garbage out".
Thanks. Also right speaker for your room.
Luckily, this is exactly what I have done! :-) Resisting to the sirens telling me that the source is the most important due to garbage in garbage out... but I totally agree, speakers have a much larger impact!
This makes sense, is logical and I don’t think it’s a wrong track. BUT ... as Steve Deckert says “if the first watt sucks, why go on?” I’ve mostly subscribed to the “source first” strategy because of GIGO (garbage in, garbage out) and I still hold that to be an important viewpoint. In my case I decided that the amp would be the foundational piece of my main system and, funnily enough, it’s the DECware Zen amp that you mention and really like. In fact, you’ve liked it twice! So here’s the deal ... anyone who is serious about their system knows, going in, that if they buy the Zen amp or any other low power SET, they are by default restricting themselves to reasonably or very efficient speakers. They KNOW their choices are somewhat limited. I’m fine with that restriction.
Another issue is that in the face of having far fewer brick and mortar stores, auditioning equipment has become more complicated and difficult. In my case, pre-pandemic, I could actually visit a couple of local dealers and bring my amp in and listen to a variety of speakers. Many don’t have that option, and purchasing gear (whether speakers, amps, etc.,) with return privilege is much more of a hassle.
So I agree with what I think is the real point: have a plan. Yes, speakers are (for the most part) the most coloured pieces of a system. But I guarantee that set of so-so speakers top notch components driving them will sound better than great speakers with mediocre source and electronics - as evidenced by your example of the Elac UB5s.
A system is ALWAYS going to be a set of compromises. So yes, have a plan no matter how you approach the journey, and have plenty of patience.
IF you don't end up chasing your tail, amps vs. speakers vs. DAC's, vs. vinyl vs. CD's vs. streaming services. A "plan" starts with priorities. And for most, that first priority is what sort of music we hold dearest, not so much how many electrons we will employ. Eh?
Jim Shaw Well yes, that’s obvious, and I have that sorted, thank you.
I started with one AR XA turntable with one Empire 880p cartridge. Then a DIY amplifier kit of unknown brand name, and a brand-less pair of headphones. Then: one $15 miracle speaker delivered in unfinished wood, but decent mid-rangey sound.
The biggest problem is there are not many places to go to listen to speakers, no more local brick and mortar stores and speaker manufactures expect buy online sight unheard .
You could start with sources and pre and then experiment with speakers and amps.That said if your going for a distance where you think you can't upgrade the speakers.Another way is to just get a high sensitivity and then another.But again you have to have an operational match that is first your room,budget speakers and appropriate power.You can cut this up a number of ways
yes, i had the Forte III's with a $120 Project Audio Stereo Box as a back ground music system. It was extremely good, definitely not because of the amp - although it definitely punched above it's weight too! Sounded better than a $4000 amp with $1500 less efficient speakers. Less total cost as well.
Great advice that’s hard to follow. So Steve, I have to watch reruns on days you don’t post because I need my morning Audiophiliac to begin my day.
Speakers first as stated, great advice Steve!
Hi Steve I've never thought about going that route but it makes perfect sense, thanks for the great advice.
It’s all about TRANSDUCERS!! High Fidelity reproduction means getting as close as possible to the original musical (hopefully acoustic) source. Microphones being at the source, are the first transducers to convert acoustic energy into an electrical signal. This fleeting signal must then be “transduced” into either a digital stream (CDs or MP3s), magnetic flux (tape), or grooves on a vinyl disc. These then get reproduced, and distributed to you, the “audiophile”. You then take this medium, apply your transducer of choice (phono cartridge, laser-DAC, tape head, or MP3 player) and convert the stored audio information back to an electrical signal by amplifying it to drive the final transducers: your SPEAKERS. Transducing is the most critical step in reproducing the original performance. Invest in the conversion technology. Serious recording studios spend considerable effort in obtaining and maintaining their transducers mics, recording heads, etc. ). So should you.
You can really start at either end. Both approaches are totally legit.
I think you've been watching the British Audiophile!
Completely agree. PS Audio's Paul McGowan recommends the same. Start with the best speakers you can afford. Speakers, amp, DAC, pre-amp, source. But 99.9% of people do not have a perfectly dimensioned dedicated room. Where would you fit basic acoustic treatment?
I wonder is there a European bias towards source first? I've been 'brought up' in the source first camp - rubbish-in, rubbish-out. A balanced system is what we want I guess, otherwise there's wasted expenditure if the source/amp are way ahead (capability wise) of the speakers or vice versa. Love the videos Steve.
1980s Ivor Tiefenbrun. Linn Sondek manufacturer and hypster.
Since most stream these days and have little physical media this philosophy is passing away...
@@carlitomelon4610 you're right. Remember him at a demo in Dublin and I do love my Sondek but also loving raspberry pi with Allo digione signature HAT. Source still matters a lot and doesn't have to be expensive. I find a good source increases the emotional connection with the music while speakers change the presentation.
@@michaelmulloy1062
Yeah, I bought a Heybrook TT2/Rega RB300 in 84, then updated it to the ii version subchasis. It still sounds amazing!
CDs too on a Mu-Fi x-ray.
All ripped to a Bluesound Vault2 last year. Now I can access high res recordings of my rips and newusic via qobuz to external dacs....the format wars are over for me:
The MUSIC has never been more accessible, and that's what all this is for;-)
if you have better speakers than the upstream components they will show up the flaws in those components that is why you start with the source then the amp and finally the speakers
On behalf of the newbies,
Thank you, Steve.
I brought my Amp's first because whatever speakers I was going to buy was going to have to be tailored around the Amp's I don't like speakers with internal crossovers either so I have my speakers custom design l am Using a N8 which give me control over every single driver which now I am running a true four-way system the only Way I would own a system
Jim Mitchell love it
because of a long Covid delays, I was forced to get amplification first but I bought an amplifier that was powerful enough to keep the range of speakers quite open. So it's possible to get the amplifier first if that amplifier has enough power.
Hoorah! Finally some logical, reasonable advice for the average consumer. Speakers first because they have the widest range of quality and sound. Next thing you know, he’ll say don’t spend a $1000 on a two watt amp... or am I being too hopeful. lol.
I agree you should start with the speakers you want, take a demo in your home if you can, becouse at the store they might sound so different, then get a suitable amp, my old nad c375bee Broke down, so i had to upgrade amp for my 683 s2 speakers, i did go for hegel h190, now i am going to start saving for new speakers,
On this revision of my system, I picked the speakers but did not buy them until I had an amp that would drive them. Until I could buy my Thiels, the old speakers sounded the best they every could.
Like that old saying I heard once says about a guy's speakers being so bad that in his anger he burned his whole system, and then went out to kill the violin player on the record...But how did his system get to be like that in the first place though...whose the blame? And mister, I do agree wholeheartedly with your points on this.
Sage advice. One of your best recommendations, actually.
best video I think most relevant today TY Steve Still favors my vintage 70s pioneer CS522 speakers and SA- 508 amp for sound. Also like my used NAD speakrers, and NAD surround amp. Considering a pair of KEF tower for audio room 5190 x 3300. Speakers first definitely... too many choices new technology going mad.
I ended up getting my amp first then speakers soon after, but I knew which amp and speakers I wanted, so still go the end result I wanted. However, saying that, I discovered a different speaker brand late in the game. If I'd found them sooner I definitely would have gone down the speakers first route.
At this time with what's going on, "virus", this is very hard to do. There are a lot less stereo stores around.
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For over 35 years, it's been the ELECTRONICS FIRST ! For me anyways. I'm an Electronics Guy first, and Speakers second. I decent pair of Headphones always tied me over until I could afford Speakers worthy of the Electronics.
For others, ya Speakers first, just make sure the Amps are next followed by the source material.
Excellent comment my friend need that,power to push 'Megadeth or Holdsworth greatest guitarist God created 👊🥂
How can you know what sound you want before you've heard it?
I'd suggest putting together a low-cost 'test rig' system of used components to find a baseline sound. Identify its weaknesses, then buy in compnents which address those areas. When it's served its purpose, you can resell the test rig and recoup a fair-sized chunk of its cost.
Yes.. Speakers first.. Don't be afraid to drop a lot of cash on them. It will be worth it. Get what you want.
Sound (sic) advice - I went the "wrong way" beginning - after many years and shrinking my wallet - realized you cannot compare with the audio hall set up of professional retailers unless you are prepared to build a listening room from scratch - that's another story and journey - bottom line - its a complete new environment if you wish to listen and enjoy audiophile music - at a cost
Don’t forget to audition the hifi at home rather than the shop it will sound different in different type of furnished property and size of room!
TURNTABLE or CD player first and foremost any information lost at the source cannot be put back later on, no matter how good the speakers may be.
CD-ROM owners are tensed. How any information can be lost even on cheap CD reader/player?
@@alexanderbelov6892 mostly related to the DAC I assume. I have not seen any conclusive proof that the CD transport mechanism itself (assuming it's working properly) can change the sound. Any "proof" that people offer is just emotion - either driven by a spiff or looking for something that's not there, not data.
I get your drift but you might not hear the quality of these sources for years - I owned my MF A5 CD player for about 6 years thinking it was 'good' when I eventually got my speakers and amp sorted, it completely transformed the sound to the next level. The point Steve is making is if you work backwards from speakers you can always hear the differences the other components make.
Even a $30 dvd player can bitstream audio. What do you think woulf sound better, a great preamp/integrated amp with a fantastic dac coupled with any old player that can bitstream or a $2000 sacd player etc and a bottom of the range receiver, the equivalent to a budget dvd player but accounting for the different cost of the devices...guess what the source means nothing if you are using the dac in a receiver, preamp, integrated amp etc.
You would be far far better getting an average source and spending more on the speakers and the preamp/integrated anp etc.
Spending more money on a source should only happen if it has a much better dac and tech than your preamp...and if it does then you should probably get a new preamp first becauae there is more to gain the just the dac improvements. Especially if we are talking about an integrated amp and you can get the next bracket of dac as well as the next step up in power over a lower model over a cd player than weighs 15kg, costs $2k and will have a broken cd mechanism in 3 years.
My dream speakers are Tannoy Arden.
I'm more than happy with my, Tannoy Revolution xt 8f.
That doesn’t surprise me in the least :-) Retired recording engineer I met in 1971 has a pair. They were preceded by Quad ESS. People waffle on about how expensive they are because they’re incapable of doing the arithmetic. How much per week over 50 years?
It may also be wise to have in mind from the start what will be the main source of the music you will be playing, do you have a large record collection, c d collection. Will you be down loading or streaming you music, which ever will make a big difference to the choice of electronics.
I have been reading up for the last 5 years on all manner of hifi.It is hard to match a speaker with an amplifier later on.Talk to everyone who knows dealers that are honest and will help you get a good match.
I like your style. I saved up and bought the best I could afford. I'd love your opinion. I bought (I will just refer to the two channel part as I don't think you're interested in the H.T. part) a pair of Klipsch RF-7IIIs and I have coming to me soon a Marantz 8015. Is this a good pairing in your opinion?
Whats first, the egg or the Chiken?
I agree! Speakers first!
EXCEPT! Except for those components about to be discontinued. If there is a AV component that you think is about to be discontinued by the manufacturer and you absolutely must have it, make sure it's your #1 priority! Buy it before it's gone! Because if it's discontinued before you can buy it, you may, for the rest of your life, regret missing out on it when it was available.
Rip Oppo UDP-205. I will forever dream of life we could have shared together . . . .
Be patient and buy used.
@@thisisnev That works for some people, and does not for others. Buying 'used' is not a one size fits all option.
I started with cable risers.
;-)
.....and then some 10k power cable's
OK, so I was ready to get speakers but we don't have any place near me to audition and I am not sure that I would even know if I could tell anything from that. I thought I wanted Klipsh Odysees but then after many reviews I am not sure I would like them, so then I thought Ohm, but once again some people say they are awesome, but the same people then say the next new thing is the thing. I just don't trust anyone. I have a friend with magnapans and I just don't hear it it as any better than the older Infinity towers I have now. So in the end I haven't bought anything.
An odd thought process to me. Do you read books from end to beginning? You begin with your source, You spend all your money on your chosen source and less on everything else down the line. Start at the Start of the audio chain, not the end of it.
I've always said that building a system is like cooking. Chef>Ingredients>Flavouring. Front End>Amplification>Speakers.
I think amps sound really different also !
I'm trying to put together a video and yes i'm going against the grain ! Since i was 13 years old i always went after the Amp first, And i spent the most money on amps so i can get the best performace out of my speakers espically now days with budget speakers , to me the Amp is the foundation of the system !
You should be aware that your system sounds like your budget speakers do. If speakers are $3,000+ they have chance to have THD of less than 0.1%, while if you have $300 amp it usually has THD of less than 0.1% (unless it is class A tube amp with THD 5+%). So building the system around an amp having THD 0.002% and some speakers having THD 1% have no much sense for quality sound.
@@alexanderbelov6892 its worked out for me for many years , But i have always owned many amps , but having a better amp allows you to get a better overall performace out of the speaker , if you have a 1k speaker being powered by a 3k amp your getting a higher level performace out of that speaker where if you use a 1k amp on 3k speakers that 1k amp isn't going to get as high of performace out of the speaker.
Works both ways to me the amp is the foundation due to budget speakers 2k and under nowdays have improved dramatically in performace ,
But i go after the SYNERGY overall but i'm an amp guy 1st and speakers 2nd
Well built amps bring the performace to the speaker but i do keep an open mind I know theirs lots of speakers that may pair better with cheaper amps than speakers so many different formulas you know 😆
@@tee-jaythestereo-bargainph2120
I should only note that in Hi End world $20,000 amps are enough for everything, while there are still $300,000-1M speakers to consider.
@@alexanderbelov6892 million dollar speaker better come with an amp lol
Careful selection of your system in the first place will enable you to focus on and build your music collection without getting caught up in the endless pursuit of sound. Unfortunately most of us don't ...........myself included.
Audiovector speakers and Gryphon amps are a great match
The fact that a $500 pair of speakers ($350 on sale) needs $$$$$ amp to sound Ok is a design flaw.