Karador, Ghost Chieftain with Corbin Hosler | The Command Zone 119
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- čas přidán 30. 07. 2024
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The Best Team at the Pro Tour: magic.wizards.com/en/events/co...
2016 World Championship Information: magic.wizards.com/en/protour/2...
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Our Potential Suggestions:
MORE CREATURES:
Kagemaro, First to Suffer
Magus of the Disk
Shriekmaw / Nekrataal
RAMP AND CARD DRAW:
Gitrog Monster
Splendid Reclamation
Phyrexian Arena
MORE SELF MILL / DREDGE:
Stinkweed Imp
Dakmor Salvage
Golgari Grave-Troll
Hermit Druid
Satyr Wayfinder
MORE TOOLS IN THE BOX:
Wispmare
Qasali Pridemage
Spore Frog
Fleshbag Marauder
Kokusho, the Evening Star
Gray Merchant of Asphodel
GET MEAN:
Hokori, Dust Drinker
Mindslicer
Gaddock Teeg
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BABIES
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I have a Rafiq Eldrazi deck, and playing armageddon and reclamation was one of the first things i put into it. And Faith's Reward. :)
Woot, something to listen to at work in 12 hours.
in my Karador, Ghost Chieftain deck I have really fallen in love with "Caustic Caterpillar"
Jakob Jensen don’t forget spore frog
In our playgroup, tutors are mostly used to look for solutions, not often for combo pieces. We even have one guy that only plays combo decks but almost never plays tutors because he finds it boring to always just grab the same thing and insta-win.
Somehow missed this cast when it came out, but thanks to the best of '16, I came back to watch the whole thing. I have a Jarad deck that's just too slow and really kind of a one trick pony with Lord of Extinction being the big blowout. I'm convinced that I could easily convert that deck to work better with Karador at the helm, which would provide more variety and less linear games.
This deck tech should be updated it has tons of new parts.
My karador deck has changed so much.
I play tutors in my Karador deck. But they're specifically creatures to the graveyard ones like buried alive.
Love the deck btw.
So I know the discussion have both been done but would you guys be able to make a video discussing the pros and cons of making a Karador deck vs making a muldrotha deck
Another great topic, plenty could benefit from a re-tool to bring variety to my LGS vs. a 4-6 turn go infinite win from tutor.
I'm having so much fun trying to finalize my build for karador, but it's so hard to pull cards out as opposed to putting cards in
Nice Future War Cult shirt :)
I think it depends on how you use your tutors. If your searching up your infinite combos every time, yeah probably boring, I use them mostly to find answers to the board situation that's in front of me, in that way it feels more toolboxish and more dynamic.
I got my Conspiracy 2 the day of launch! (yesterday)! That shipping was amazing
Hey guys, can i somehow run this youtube playlist from old videos to the new ones instead of the default new-->old?
Tutors are a necessary part of EDH but in moderation, I personally run around 3 all around tutors per deck and maybe more if they are more specific. An example of this is Hoarding Dragon.
Speaking of awesome ramping creatures, Wood Elves can tutor for non-basic forests and Krosan Restorer is pretty cool due to the Threshold.
You may want to run Qasali Pridemage as a way out against Torpor Orb.
Yay another birthing pod deck. I play ghave pod and like this karador List too. Great work you guys
Where can I find this deck list it sounds fun and I'm new to edh
"This started as a Teneb deck."
Me: Turning my Teneb deck into a Karador deck in 2023...😅
yo Brandon plays prereleases at my lgs, crazy to see him talked about in media
awesome naked gun reference!!
The mom and son thing as awesome
Naked Gun reference! I love it.
i believe tutors are a necessary evil in 100 card singleton. especially for certain types of effects that maybe don't really exist with functional reprints. i also would say the fewer colors in any given deck the more it probably would need tutors. i usually run 2-6 tutors.
karador is my commander for my shadow born apostles deck, was gonna just make a goodstuff deck with a combo or two but it was a bit to much $$ so i filled up 1/3 of the deck with a 1.50 card, imm slowly buying the cards to make it a goodstuff combo deck tho, already upgraded it with the original dual lands, tho i think i wanna buying into a new modern deck since i just got done pimping out my dredge deck with Japanese foils, can't decide which to go for first
How do you loop Oblivion Stone with Sun Titan and Animate Dead?
everyone is all over the placd with the new queen marchesa maybe you guys could do a deck tech of sorts with her it would be really interesting
I'd definitely run wood elves. You can get forests with it, so you can grab your shocks and such if you want, helps with fixing, and comes in untapped. Wood elves is almost an auto-include in any green creature-based deck, but the reanimator theme of karador makes it even better. I'd put it in over farhaven in almost all situations, and certainly this one.
If you're leaning on your green sources, Yavimaya Dryad is also a fantastic card that can also grab shock lands/AB duals.
Seconded. Wood Elves is infinitely better than Farhaven. Wood Elves can still find a Swamp once, a Plains twice, and a tri-colored land once in these colors. Add another Swamp and Plains if you have duals, and of course Urborg exists so it can tutor as many Swamps as you have Forests. They come in untapped and ready to use, so Wood Elves effectively costs less. It's just better in every respect.
I'm interested in meeting up at Card Kingdom, but I don't have twitter.
My play group uses almost as many tutors as is possible. That being said, unless I'm in black, I try to avoid them because it tends to make me go for the same thing always, whereas with black tutors (typically), I can get whatever I want and change it up.
have you guys done a mana base episode? I'd like to help out...
Episodes 39 & 40 are all about Mana Bases!
Theproblem with a ton of self millk is that,while it's easy to bring creatures back, everything else is kind of aproblem. SInce he's only running 29 creatures, I thinkit's realy better to not have a lot of self mill.
Skip to 16:47 to start hearing about the actual deck
First off, I want to say I love that the deck has Woodland Bellower in it. Shouty Bear is a pet card of mine because it basically says "When Woodland Bellower enters the battlefield, put Eternal Witness into play." Best card in the deck. 10/10
Onto more serious discussion/suggestions, I tend to prefer Wood Elves over Farhaven Elf, mainly because it can get dual lands, Sapseep Forest and other non basic forests which I feel is a little better. Ideally I'd run both but if it's a choice between the two I'd take probably take Wood Elves.
Another mana dork I think is really great for decks that use the graveyard is Millikin, I jammed it into Meren on a bit of a whim after I opened one in an Eternal Masters pack and I drew it in my opening hand after adding it and it really seemed to generate value for Meren and I imagine it'd do the same in Karador. Especially if you're playing stuff like Life From the Loam and Splendid Reclamation as well.
Yes, more Woodland Bellower fans! I would never play any toolbox-based green/X deck without it. In my Meren deck it tutors ramp, artifact/enchantment hate, fogs, and /Eternal Witness/. That's absurdly strong, even before you consider that it's 7-8 power for six mana, spread across two bodies. That's pretty close to what happens when you cast a Grave Titan.
Like I say, Shouty Bear is possibly my favourite card from Origins. It really comes into it's own in Commander. It has so many really good targets in various colour combinations.
Trigon Predator, Knights of the Reliquary, almost any non-legendary elf worth playing, Dauntless Escort Dryad Arbor (if you really want to), Giltspire Avenger, Kitchen Finks, Mwonvuli Beast Tracker. There are a lot more but as you say I really think it's a decent toolbox card that is decently costed for the body that comes attached to it.
So how does ur Tasigur deck looks?)
Dredge does cost you a card in a sense - the one you would have drawn otherwise 😉.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I can still cast an overloaded Mizzium Mortars through a Geddock Teeg, right? If so, a Cyclonic Rift is also an answer.
I'm pretty sure that's how it works
Correct. The CMC of an Overloaded spell is whatever is in the top-right corner of the card. This is also why you can't Overload a Cyc Rift under a Void Winnower or Brisela.
I'm a fan of tutors, but then I also consider myself a pretty serious spike. However, even when I build low power or 75% decks to play against other playgroups, I typically find myself including some sort of tutor package. They may be a bit slower than the high end choices, but having the ability to actually answer a game ending threat or to find the cards that actually show off what it is my deck is trying to do is a good thing, not a bad one. I think people get turned off when people tutor up combo pieces and win, feeling it makes the format more linear, but I think those same people often forget a well time tutor on their part (Such as Mystical Tutor) can find them the answer they need to said combo.
Funnest, most fair tutor: Lim-Dúl's Vault
Joshs comment on hermit druid then the game knights where jimmy olayed it
What I dislike the most about the mulligan change is what you mentioned at 41:00. I had to change the curve in my decks and take put in more lands. The change feels like it is punishing me for wanting to play big flashy spells.
The change was to nerf combo decks. Partial mulligan makes combo decks just hold onto the key pieces of their strategy and mulligan the rest, while not giving as big an advantage to any other kind of deck.
Yeah - I think it was a necessary evil. There are upsides and downsides but overall Partial Paris was just too abusable.
im surprised you guys never mentioned Bane of Progress.
I'm always sad when I someone swaps his Teneb deck for a Karador. One reason why a lot of Teneb decks are lackluster is the fact that people build it like a Karador deck. These generals are vastly different and they should be built differently.
Karador wants to fill his graveyard quickly with a lot of creatures. You still pay for the creatures, so you have to curve them out. You have access to a wide arrays of creatures from your graveyard, so a "toolbox" approach is efficient.
Teneb on the other hand cheats the mana cost, but his reanimation effect is not reliable since he has to deal combat damage with enough mana to activate his ability. You probably won't be able to do it every turn unless you are crushing your opponents already. The approach of a few high impact, high CMC creatures with a lot of utility is preferred.
Also, he's a DRAGON (I mean, come on).
My Teneb deck for reference:
tappedout.net/mtg-decks/10-01-16-teneb-edh/
I love Saffi combo's
I like the 70% theory and definitely like the idea of not using tutors in commander, it's a casual format. In the more competitive games tutor away but just casual games I don't like it as well. If you don't tutor and the other people at your game are you can be just as behind as not ramping. But to each thier own.
My Mizzix deck RARELY loses. But i intentionally don't play it because its a consistent turn 6 win, 80% of the time, regardless of what occurs...
I prefer my Prime Speaker Zegana deck. it follows the 75% rule. No infinites, Only 1 board wipe, a few counters. Completely fair in every way.
I haven't played commander for a long time :(
"Quasali" Pridemage * Eye Twitch*
Baleful Force is a Phyrexian Arena on both steroids and a stick. Expensive mana-wise, but perhaps worth considering.
Or Bloodgift demon.
Also an option. I like Baleful because it draws about four times as many cards, but Baleful also costs a lot more mana. It's going to come down to what your ramp engine can support.
I used to have an infinite combo in my Karador deck, but it got boring, so I replaced it with Genesis Wave. Genesis Wave is a nuclear weapon in that deck because I go really hard into devotion to green. So I Genesis Wave for 30+ on average, then if Akroma's Memorial comes out from that, that's game. It does a lot of creature tutor with Yisan working with Thousand-Year Elixir, Magewright's Stone, Rings of Brighthearth, and Seedborn Muse. Eventually Yisan starts bringing out the legendary eldrazi. I put Ayli in the deck because sometimes you just have to sack a Kozilek.
i too use genesis wave! i have found it's actually a lot easier in a black heavy deck, because of liliana of the dark realms' ultimate.
I guess if you're running her and Doubling Season it could be. In Meren, I do Tempt with Discovery to grab Urborg, Cabal Coffers, Deserted Temple, and some other land, then that's a lot of black mana right there. But Karador has a lot of green devotion and only Liliana Vess. The new Selvala may be the best mana producing elf ever printed and she needs some more recognition. Use her with Serra Avatar, Omnath, or Malignus and just add all the mana you could ever want. Genesis Wave for 17 on turn 5.
People actually take your Tempts? That's insane. I would never take a Tempt against a Green/Black deck.
Surprisingly yes, they do. I usually get 3 lands off of it on average, but 4 lands happens every now and then. You have to act like a salesman, sell them on the fact that they can get any land they want and it comes in untapped unless otherwise stated on the card. Then once one person buys into it, the rest follow.
That is insane. My playgroup buys into that Tempt relatively often because the player who uses it most doesn't have anything really valuable to get with it; it's just some Temples or checklands or something. But when the Omnath player or the Golgari player casts it, nobody is that insane to just hand them a billion mana.
Commenting early (still haven't finished the whole episode)... the mulligan rule part has spurred me to write a question here. Are people sitting down with a a group asking Vancover or Pairs mulligan rules before they start playing? That's what all the groups in my area are doing (even rando's). We agree before hands are drawn what method to use. I haven't seen a change in deck styles for this reason like you all discussed. What is everyone else experiencing?
We assume the default rules. Having said that, if someone asked to do Partial Paris before a game I would probably be fine with it.
this is how my LGS does it. the more experienced players all want vnc/official rules, but for the randos and super casual games, we let the less experienced players chime in and just dont mulligan unless we get fucked proper.
we also typically confer around poison counters pregame (15 unless someone is running dedicated poison, to avoid blightsteel cheese), again, we're more interested in a fun game than a spikey one
This is pretty close to how we do, infect isn't a big concern around here, and I think most people have their "Fun" decks and a few "competitive" decks for when its called for..
My issue with any deck that depends on the graveyard is that every precon deck until the last set had Bojuka Bog. In my group, at least, graveyards are highly unreliable.
this is why you have to play good magic and only dump what you're willing to lose, unless you win that turn by dumping everything. You can actually fight through several graveyard exiles if you're playing with the fact that graveyard hate exists in mind
Yup. Our playgroup has two Meren decks. Mine can beat exiling effects like Bog without too much trouble (though Rest in Peace is still essentially an autolose under normal conditions). The other Meren player accepts that he automatically loses to me because there will come a turn where I'll find Bojuka Bog.
I'm only 6k kilometars away from pax :D
Commander cube?
Has anyone considered adding Eternal Witness to the deck?
i do.. i run a karatoolbox deck..
do gisa and geralf?
This deck is awesome but so expensive:(
ok well try this kami of false hope it's one white Mana prevent all combat damage this turn
40:54 Since that rule change our play group at my local as vanished. That rule suck so hard!
It's not like you have to follow the rule though
Ben Gardner Yes, but it's the default, if one player absolutely want to play with the new rule we kinda have to. Even if with my friends we play with the old rule (we don't all live in the same city), that doesn't change that nobody come to my local every week.
Whole lot of people didn't know how to play a game of magic without stacking their hand with combo pieces?
When Paris was the default, our groups (at lgs and home games) didn't use partial Paris. Another lgs across town did Paris, and they got tons more regular players when that rule went away.
In my experience with a playgroup full of Paris, players don't usually use it to stack combos. They use it to make sure they avoid getting mana screwed and so that they can get some decent early-game action.
Alert! Kitten at 6:12!
and I will be adding a spore frog soon to
I remember having 25 of those things lol, never thought I'd hear anyone mention them ever again
Yes. If you're trying to make a 75% Karrador deck, Survival of the fittest is way too good. That card is absurd in Karrador. You talked about reasons you don't like to play tutors in Commander, yet Survival of the fittest is arguably better than any other tutor in the game when paired with karrador. Demonic and vampiric tutor both get you elesh norn. Survival of the fittest gets you Elesh Norn and a shriekmaw in your graveyard to cast for 1 and a black every turn. Sure, demonic tutor can get you any card, but in such a creature heavy deck, survival is way better the majority of the time because most of your utility comes from you creatures
I'd take away the "arguably" Survival is only weaker in decks that are reliant on a noncreature component to their removal package or their combo, and that's not true of Karador.
I need jimmy’s shirt
If Black can’t play tutors, then Blue can’t play counterspells, then green can’t play ramp, and red can’t play direct damage.
This is what it sounds like to me, each colour does a thing well, taking away what a colour can do just because you don’t like it is bull.
don't forget about fog frogs white cousin kami of the false hope
kambal and teeg are great vs mizzex
Sounds like Saffi should be left out of this deck if we are building based off of the 75% rule.
"wrath of god every turn"..... glad he's not in my playgroup. "Playing Magic" includes USING the creatures you play
I still don't get how the EDH committee came to the decision of "abolishing" the partial Paris mulligan... they claimed it didn't make any significant differences to the Vancouver mulligan. Wtf? Perhaps for people playing with completely optimised mana bases etc., but EDH being the budget format it is for most players, what about the rest of us? Don't these couple of guys have any consideration for the community? 😡
We pretty much don't give a shit and still use the partial Paris mulligan. Just makes for more fun games when everyone can reduce the likelihood of getting mana screwed - as you said in the beginning, it's always most fun when everyone actually gets to play Magic 😉.
Lots of folks just play with the Paris. Our group does too; we tried one event with Vancouver and everybody hated it. Two-thirds of the way through we decided to go back to Paris.
1:07:45 Spike Weaver everyday
He has a G/W recursion deck and you tell him to add in fog frog, but didn't mentioning Kami of false hope...for shame. As far as tutors in Commander, I think they're the keys that start the engines. They're perfect ways to add reliable mechanics to a deck. They're a part of the format just as board wipes are. Once you embrace what the format is overall, you'll start building your decks better, and having more interesting, and fair game sessions. I love teaching people how to lose like a winner.
can you guys just get money back on your own order by using affiliate link
looking back at it now as an experienced player, that cedh take was BAD
Ugh, another reason that missing PAX is so bad......
I understand promoting other things in videos but the first 17min had nothing to do with a deck tech..that could have been another video
Guys. I need to sleep. Please why.
Also I'll be at PAX and a meet up would awesome!
"Karador is one of the most powerful generals in EDH". Unfortunately this is completely wrong. I play a Karador deck, but it is always outclassed by Meren and that really sucks. Putting stuff into play for free always beats having to pay to put a creature into play from the graveyard each turn
Yeah if you only think of karador as pure grave recursion then yes it's weaker then meren but the advantage that karador has over meren is that you don't have the restriction with experience counters you can bring back any creature just you have to pay the mana for it. Also karador's colors allows you to play with white and there are some crazy strong white creatures that can abuse karador's effect.
awww what a sad story XD
Agreed with @Luke Byer. It also largely depends on the level of how competitive your meta is. If people are playing strictly casual (e.g., low tutor count, low tolerance for infinite combos, etc) then yes, perhaps Meren may be higher value in that context. Alternatively, if people are playing on the more competitive end of the spectrum, Karador is incredible. The addition of white opens the door to tons of hatebears and infinite combo pieces. Add an abundance of tutors to the mix and you have a very fast, reliable engine.
Yup. As a Meren player and as a player whose meta includes a competitive-level Karador deck, Karador's ceiling is /far/ higher. I've been killed on turn four by the Karador deck. I've never done anything close to that with Meren, nor do I have the card pool to even try. Golgari is extremely short on ways to just instantly win the game, especially with ways that actually interact with Meren herself. Karador has approximately a billion of them.
In terms of their effects, you can argue which is stronger. Karador requires you to pay for the creature, but you can do it in your main phase. Meren gets it for free, assuming you've lost enough creatures (although getting the creature to hand can be exploited with dredge or cycling creatures), but she only gets it in the end phase. The last restriction actually hurts a lot. Sure, I can casually tutor whatever card I want for free with Rune-Scarred Demon or Sidisi or just E-Wit getting back a tutor... but unless that card is instant (and thus not one of my win conditions), I can't use it until next turn. Karador's spending mana for efficiency with a lot of these cards, especially the more combo-oriented ones. Frankly in terms of effects, the actual strongest one is Sheoldred, but she's saddled by being monoblack, seven mana, and drawing all the hate.
Ultimately the decks depend on how you play them. As a value-based deck, I would 100% agree that Meren is stronger. White adds a few good value cards and some additional removal to that style of deck, but a value deck really wants to cast a bunch of cards every turn and Karador eating your mana hurts for that. And a value-based Meren deck is one of the strongest ways you can play "fair" Magic as a lot of people define it (no infinites, no instant kills, that sort of thing).
But a well-tuned competitive Karador deck can be far faster and more efficient than even the best Meren deck.
XD my karador works at a better rate than this one. Interesting twist on the persist. I prefer using toolbox method with mine
First I guess?
Commander is a much better game without tutors.
Don't state that like it's a fact. It comes down to what you're trying to do with the format.
In my experience it kinda is a fact. Tutors are against the spirit of singleton, what's the point of being limited to one copy of each card in a 99 cards deck if you can access the combo cards in every game?
Also, tutors make the game slow as hell and force players to use many of them and counter tutors to search oponents decks and exile them.
It's literally not a fact. It's an opinion. Unless there is some number you can put on EVERY PLAYER'S enjoyment of the format and do the math.
I personally play a Boonweaver Giant Karador combo deck and have a blast with it, so there's at least me who enjoys tutors in EDH.
So what if it is my opinion? do I haveto write a disclaimer every time I state my opinion?
Of course you enjoy using tutors, everyone likes to use tutors, I like to use tutors myself. What I say is that the overall impact is the game is negative because they slow down the game and make the games repetitive.
Tutors are amazing in a normal 60 card deck with up to 4 copies of each card, but they break the singleton format. When we used to play with tutors in my game group most of the time ofthe game was watching payers as they searched through their library pondering how every and each card in their deck would impact the game. Also decks tended to be something like 20 tutors, 20 cards that win the game, 20 responses and 40 lands.
Turns run much fasters since we stopped using tutors. And decks and games are more diverse.
I agree - tutors somehow make little sense in a singleton format. Playing lot o tutors and Zur as commander just doesn't feel right.
I'm okay with tutors who look for a special card type though.
Like you’re NOT running Deranged Hermit? Wtf are you thinking? That’s THE best self mill in the format especially for this list. Lmk if you wanna learn how to play Karador bruh
really remove tutors? so remove "return from graveyard cards too", they are tutors too, and the tutors for lands. BTW during the podcast.....i dont like tutors and blah blah bla.... wich is your best card in your favourite deck beloved guest? a tutor!! but i dont play 2 cards combo, because i dont need cheap 2 card combos with graveyard tactics...... because i play the most basic and powerful tutor tactic wich makes MTg what it is, Graveyard play. Be critic and dont whine about tutors when return from gravyard is a more opresive and always the same OLD tactic, remember wizards made a complete mechanic to counter this a bit and didnt work "EXILE".
Tutors =/= reanimators.
I think the commentor means that, in Karador decks, reanimators function very similarly to tutors as you want to pitch most of your library into your graveyard very quickly.
There is a difference between the way you use them. A land fetch doesn't set up a specific combo. And you can have a favorite card without using it xD
@thecommieduck I'll second that. It's not really a tutor if you have to dump it to your graveyard first. Even cards like Buried Alive is just half a tutor.
There is no difference when a tutor let you put one or multiple cards, into in a place were you can take it from very easy, like "top of my libray" or "My graveyard". let tutors tutor and zomibes "to zombie"