When Frankie first came on, you could tell he was a bit nervous, he’s come a long way. But now it’s awesome to see the dynamic of Frankie and Pat. Seriously these two fellas are my favorite hosts on Powerblock.
I miss Mike Galley. He and Stacy David are my favorites. But I like Frankie. I just wonder if they would have made Pat and executive and let Mike take the reigns and been the one to mentor Frankie. So I can't help but wonder how different Frankie would be now.... I don't have any issues with Pat I've learned a ton from that guy and will learn more but I think they need someone else. Id like to see them start machining heads and blocks. And get a knowledgeable machinist and a knowledgeable porting and cam guru together. Keep a host and builder like Frankie. Then we could watch the entire process of an engine build. Show how to get engines for cheap in scrap yards and pull a parts. And one last thing take the most popular cars that people are driving and show how to fix common issues associated with that type of vehicle this could be but this could be on a different show or platform. Just my opinion that if they captured these different phases it'd attract a lot of people. No offense to Pat but they need someone less goofy and a lil more cool.
AWESOME. ""PLEASE PLEASE"" can you do an episode like this or even with this engine comparing ""PROPANE"" on a low compression motor and the same on a high compression version. Propane is way cheaper to run as a daily, High Octane, but burns slow, so the compression should help. may need harder valves. Also it would be neat to see how much power can be had by testing stock vs recurved Dizzy with these combos. I love to see what is possible if you build the engine for the fuel instead of limiting the engine because of the fuel . Love the show guys. Keep em coming. Thanks. Tom B.
This PLEASE. So many guys turning their old trucks to propane when I browse classifieds. Im sure I and a lot of other enthusiasts would love to see the actual hard data and what is possible.
Propane is very compression friendly. We used to use it when starting up diesels in the winter up in northern Canada. Also, you can use it like nitrous, but for a diesel.
@@guffalump756 this is interesting. Propane conversions were popular in Australia 30 years ago but have more recently become uneconomical and it's becoming difficult to find a fueling station that still has it available.
The dual plane was the cork here. Needed a high rise single plane to exploit the compression and cam timing. I think the heads on 360ci will support more than they think. 190cc heads on an overbored 351w can support 550hp+ .
I once had a 350, .30 over, Lunati race cam, heads built by Ed Pinks shop, and other goodies with a solid 350T 2200 stall converter in a '86 El Camino. I miss it😔
Pat and Frankie are the dad and son of engine building, great rev head dynamics there. Time to get a C8 motor and tune on that to see what is reliably capable, cost, parts, results, get it done boys? Also like to see the boys get a hold of one of those Aussie Ford Barra 4litre inline six and tune on that, and do their own 2k barra build and then see the other shop boys drop it into a mustang project car.
Love to see power #'s for it with higher compression pistons and better heads. Then go to a 4 inch crank for a 454 talldeck final. Possibly play with boost on both applications....
@@MrBlackbutang427FEs have thin cylinder walls and a relatively short stroke, a 428 style FE with the long stroke crank or the 390 bore size and 428 crank 410 Mercury FE would be a better choice for a towing application IMO. Besides 427FE blocks are rare as hell and belong in a period correct 60s NASCAR or drag race replica car.
There isn't much reason to mess with a 427T BBC, they've been out if production over 30yrs, not very common, if you really wanted to use one of them the thing to do would be a long stroke undersquare build, like a 4.5"+ stroke with thick cylinder walls for durability, built for tq down low and low peak rpms, maybe 5000rpms, so, relatively small port volume, probably use a head designed for a 396/402, dual plane intake, dynamic compression in the 87oct neighborhood. You could probably get just as much durability and power building common Gen V or VI 454 block with a better package, more intake, ignition and exhaust choices. Simple, common rotating assembly and pushrod choices too. You can go hydraulic roller cam also for durability, simplicity and less frictional power losses
Checking out the marks on the balancer is one example of how someone would go get some special gizmo, but Pat pulled a ruler from the "Pocket" and gets it done before the other guy wakes up.
Love these kind of builds! My 13’ Ram was built just like this so it could be a nice street oriented truck💪🏻 394Ci 6.4L Stroker with 11:4:1 compression, 233/246 112LSA cam, 6.4L variable intake manifold, and a forged bottom end. We found out on the dyno that this setup created a restriction with the 300CFM Eagle Heads. I made 30Ib’s more torque than horsepower with that big cam.
@@timothybayliss6680Stock Eagle heads that were originally on my motor, they were cleaned, rebuilt, & decked .010 over. And they are not Apache 6.4L heads, my motor is a stroker motor. And, I’ve never seen stock Eagle heads in person flow over 300CFM’s. However, the Apache heads with the 4.09in bore flow 330CFM, but I have not seen them on the flow bench yet.
I want to see what a 454ci stroker kit will do in one of those 6.4/6.2 blocks, you need a Holley Hi-Ram or something on that beast from the sound of it.
I love that you’re going over the fundamentals of engine dynamics. Would be fascinating to see you take a route type supercharger to 1 atm. What would you have to change to do that?
With that much static compression, they would have to retard the cam timing a bunch to drop the dynamic compression and go very conservative on the ignition timing and run rich on the fuel. It would be wise to try E85 pump fuel because that would be expensive on race gas.
With that kind of compression I would do a solid roller single plane intake and a bigger head zip it up around 7000 rpm then see what she will do. That motor should make well over 500 hp.
For sure. They don't have to pay for a garage to work in or ANY kind/type of tool had a chassis Dyno but have an engine Dyno. They get free head/cams/rods and all the other parts for free and the get paid tool play around with them all. This is by far and ahead my dream job. Hopefully one day I can do something like this.
TL;DR They left a lot pump gas peak power on the table running flat ignition timing and it picked up only 3 hp and 3 ft*lb going from 230 to 246 deg intake duration.
@@cammykakes5420 no, it needs an rpm-based curve at WOT to allow more retard at low rpm (where it was probably knocking on pump gas) and more advance at high rpm (where it was very far from MBT)
@@cammykakes5420 I think he meant "locked" ignition timing- no curve. A performance engine as installed in a vehicle almost always has it's timing "all in" in the rpm range that the engine is tested on the dyno.
I would love to see a factory 1970 ls6 run on the dyno to see what the numbers really was on it. I heard stories that is was advertised as 450 hp but really way over 500 hp
The actual cam lift is not significant because we all know Powernation would readily give that specification for the viewing audience. These two guys probably understand that better than the vast majority of engine builders.
I expected more than 475 from a 13:1 motor ?? I built my own evac system 30 + years ago using air injection valves that were current emissions systems of the day as the moroso system was out of my budget
Just had a chance to get out of the heat and eat. Throw on some Power Nation on TV and had to say!!! Keep up the great work Guys!!..Pat ever near NW Oklahoma.. always welcome!!!
Small cam is optimized for the intake based on not a whole lot of gain from the big can. , pretty sure mid throttle response is a lot better with small cam on street
Proof that just because you can make something work within certain constraints doesn't mean it's even close to optimized. Every time I use VP Q-16 it's good for around 10 HP.
Not sure it makes much more power, but I believe it may increase longevity via balancing harmonic vibration, etc. I've never seen big increases but they always run well, but always have all top of the line parts so idk. Have you seen big differences? I too am curious.
It really depends on the cam profile and the indication. In most cases not much but just a tad hp n a tad more trq... Like 2-5hp and 4-7 ft lbs. So it would only matter in an all out racing situation. I agree with less harmonics and extended engine like albeit the same just a tad lol
Might as well go to a full LS firing order swap, maybe even run LS coils as well. It might not add much power but that firing order puts more even pressure on the main bearings, same order a 351w runs, LS and Windsor both love boost which is even more aggressive cylinder pressure than 13:1 static once you hit big boost.
Gentlemen, This video series may be slightly over the average guys head. However, it was very technically interesting. Maybe the next video should show what max power could actually made with street size heads and that much compression. Also the inverse… How much max power can be made on pump gas? A little porting… I’m guessing that your average viewer wants to see that. How much power can the sleeper guy make NA? Love the show!
That kind of compression would just LOVE my gasifier truck. Octane 130 on woodgas, the more compression the better. Problem would be I need that smaller cam for more vacuum so it breaths the fuel in correctly. Sucks there is so little info on actually building a motor for woodgas
@@BuffMyRadius there are some guys playing around with it but it's rather difficult to do because you're having to compress a mixture of air and wood gas through the turbo there are one guy I know of that supercharging engine but just could not find a way to make it work very well most guys are just running with that little bit less horsepower the wood gas provides and living with it being okay with it but for something like my light duty Toyota pickup with a small block Chevy V8 the loss of horsepower isn't really noticed I probably have as much if not more horsepower than the four-cylinder ever put out on wood so I'm okay with it
That was a good exercise for showing comp/timing increase; but we already knew about it, right?..I'm interested in E55/E85 differences and compression increase from stock to 13:1, relative to a swapped LS cam like your 230* cam; and increased timing in a vehicle, relative to it's weight and gearing. Which is what your dyno dreams lack, relative to detonation, right? You're selling the power parts to racers, but it's the same old "reg guys" who want to feel more roll-on power from the same engine, without swapping everything for the occasional top end rush.
To take full advantage of the higher octane fuel you need to put the cam timing back to normal to give the engine a true 13 to 1. You keep saying 13 to 1 but the cam timing isnt giving the engine 13 to 1. So the added octane isnt giving the engine the added power it was the added timing since that engine is technically a low compression engine. Set cam timing back to normal and run the test again with the high octane fuel and you will see 500 plus hp. Since then the engine will be a true 13 to1.
Exactly, it renders to not fully using the racing fuel potential if you de-tune the static high compression to a much lower dynamic compression. The only thing changed in this setup is the high advance of the timing. Also the bigger cam flows more at higher rpms which clearly show in the graph but they don't go there despite the enhanced internal.
@@AlfaRomeo156SWGTA right not sure what they thought by this video that we didn't know what was going on or we are ignorant but saying 13:1 when you have changed cam timing and said it really is 8.5 or 9 to 1. Almost sounds to me they don't know or they are ignorant. Having a low compression engine with low timing then raising timing after adding race gas of course is going to increase HP but not because of the fuel. Would have done the same outcome with just increasing timing with pump gas. Sometimes I think these guys are really smart and good at what they do then they do something like this and makes me realize that I'm wasting my time watching power nation.
More cam advance for larger camshaft. should be used And so they big block mopar test they removed the intake and EFI and used more race intake and Holley carb huge power increase over 30
They did advance the cam timing, the engine needs a single plane so it can rev higher and create more HP. It has all the ingredients to make close to 550hp IMO maybe even close to 600hp, I don't think the heads are a restriction on only 360ci like they were saying.
I like it ! Street power in a big fatty station wagon , like the numbers on the small cam realize it's iron heads I grew up on , them aluminum heads are tasty
This a motor with to much compression for street gas with only 22 total was severely limited! If it would of had 10.5;1 compression and premium gas and 36 degrees total it would of made more than the high compression with restriction limited 22 degrees of timing!
the wide LSA and a huge compression drop with the bigger cam, I want to see 11:1 dynamic with the Larger camshaft , or even 13 :1 if you can thast way we can see the same improvements , adding race fuel and timing advanced. i mean that here they says 9:1 Dynamic that is 89 Octane No need for 118 octane
I haven't searched your other videos so maybe the answer to my question is already there ? Anyhow, can you explain your calculation of dynamic compression and how that gives you cam timing ? And then how about a run with both cams straight up now you're using racing fuel ?
I really want to see a single plane on that engine and closer 7000 rpms. I think those heads should do fine since it's only 360ci. I am not sure how the differences work but, I have seen where a 357ci 351w based engine with 190cc TFS 11Rs made like 595hp and a single plane. I don't think it had 13:1 static compression either. Might be cool to see what E85 from the pump would make in there too. I would think it would perform nearly as well as that expensive 118 race gas and would make the engine affordable to run for the right guy who has that fuel readily available.
That's great. But what about the other direction. Most small blocks (GM, Ford, Chry) will operate with increased compression. What is the maximum static/dynamic ratio for 87 octane at Tenn atmospheric pressure?
Been following u guys for a while would love for you to restore me a fair lady Z . Would be a tough project ik it. I'ma young guy In ATL Georgia would love for you to find one and put a 3v heavenly modified forged mustang engine. never had my dad in my life but I'm 22 and just love your channels and would love to get you guys really pumped and good challenge
Not that a 292h cam won't work with a 9.5 to 1 compression small block this cam is better suited for a engine with 10.5 to 1 or more compression with a descent flowing cylinder head l had a all forged 383 with a 294s camshaft with AFR 190 cylinder heads with 10.5 to 1 compression it made 460 horsepower at the crankshaft at 5800rpm with a RPM air gap intake and a tuned holley 650 double pumper with mechanical secondaries it had really good mid range torque but was somewhat disappointed in its upper rpm power above 6000rpm that's when torque really dropped off quickly no need to rev it past 6200rpm that being said a 292s cam in a 350 small block with 9.5 to 1 compression with a decent cylinder head should make 375-400 horsepower at the crankshaft just my opinion but a 274 camshaft will probably be better suited with your 9.5 to 1 compression ratio with a duration of 224-230 the cam you listed has 244 duration and I'd consider it a pretty big camshaft for 9.5 to 1 compression engine but it will work this 244 duration camshaft in a 350 won't start pulling real hard until 3500rpm and if your running a 383 or 406 small block with a 3.75 stroke it will start pulling hard around 2800-3000rpm the problem with a 9.5 to 1 compression engine is torque will be dropping my 5000rpm by 5500rpm it's dropping like a brick off a cliff as you push the engine above 5500rpm you are going to feel the engine torque drop off as you push it to redline is the reason many want 10.5 to one or more compression and a bigger camshaft
@@bigboreracing356 any decent running V8 in a 2400 pound car with 4.11 gears and a 3800 stall converter will be fast this same setup in a 3500 + pound vehicle would be + 1 second slower but your right something that weighs 2400 pounds with 330+ rear wheel horsepower will be fast with 4.11 gears and a 3800 stall converter when l had a 1984 Monte Carlo SS with a 292h camshaft in a 350 with 10 to 1 compression with 4.10 gears and a 3000 stall and a turbo 350 transmission that weighed 3600 pounds with me in it it ran 8.8 at 80mph in the eighth mile my 2011 Camaro SS with many upgrades a new GM performance LS3 495 horsepower crate engine with a built 6L80e automatic transmission and a circle D 4200rpm stall converter and stock 3.27 gears ran 7.40s at 94mph in the eighth it weighs 3920 with me in it and cruises the highway at 80mph at 2100-2200rpm with air conditioning naturally aspirated
Lol pat can only handle hearing the kid rambling on about stuff nobody cares about!!! And then as usual after dyno an engine , they both so ready to go home u cant understand there conversation like there jacked up on something, lol love the videos
@@jeffnewton3507 ok, thanks for clarifying jeff appreciated, still i wonder how such valve events affect the dynamic comp. Can that promote detonation too?
Not a challenge for Pat , I love watching and listening to these guys , Pat puts it in Leigh man terms, if Pat couldn't fish it out in his sleep I would have to see the fail. Dude has built a , modesty like he would say is oh couple hundred or so. LOL 😂
1,49 43,11 timing events at .050 small cam 17, 49 64,8 big cam look at that intake opening difference look at that exhaust opening difference yet. little change in power.
Nice numbers! How do you translate these dyno numbers into shift points for a drag race? also consider maybe the difference between an M-22 (1000 rpm drop per gear) transmission and an M21 (800, 800, 1200 rpm drop).
I have a slightly unrelated question if I may? Timing lights. I see you use what looks like a Snap-On style timing light for your settings and adjustments. What would be a good quality timing light for the hobbyist who is using a MSD type ignition to buy that doesn't cost the earth? Thanks.
so at what point do you start using the crank case evaluation kit ? Will it work on a stock engine or mildly built engine or only competition engines ?
I would think that the cam profile of the bike would be a lot wilder than a cam in a SBC, I would think the dynamic compression would be lower in the bike and have more of a top end peak, not a great deal of low end torque
I wonder how much HP the small block Mopar would've had if you had placed Trick Flow heads on it, bigger cam etc like the sbc? Just so we could have an apples for apples comparison. Good show all the same.
I don’t understand why you put a bigger cam in it and then spun it to the same RPM you did with a small cam makes no sense that cam’s not gonna start really pulling hard until after 6000 RPM
The dual plane probably ran out of breathing room on top. And it also depends on the head flow CFM’s. On my 394Ci 6.4L stroker I’m having to shift at 6,200rpms because of maxing out the 300CFM Eagle heads.
@@bri-manhunter2654 Oh no I build engines for a living I’ve ran the RPM intake in many Dyno tests to 6500 on lots of combinations 383s-400s to 6500 with similar camshafts and that 360cid sbc was definitely not peeking at 6000rpm, regardless it wouldn’t have made a Ton more, just surprised
Watch Part 1: Over 13:1 on Pump Gas! Chevy 350 Dyno Mule czcams.com/video/okYyReBncC8/video.html
5:05 Frankie and I was thinking the same thing that Frankie was
Please follow up advancing the camshaft ore with the longer duration cam to see ifthe higher dynamic compression does something
Wonder what would happen if the afr on the pump gas was dropped to 12.2 to 12.0 if it would make the same power? 12.8 seems too lean
When Frankie first came on, you could tell he was a bit nervous, he’s come a long way. But now it’s awesome to see the dynamic of Frankie and Pat. Seriously these two fellas are my favorite hosts on Powerblock.
I agree. Frankie seems to be settling in under Pat's wing..
I miss Mike Galley. He and Stacy David are my favorites. But I like Frankie. I just wonder if they would have made Pat and executive and let Mike take the reigns and been the one to mentor Frankie. So I can't help but wonder how different Frankie would be now.... I don't have any issues with Pat I've learned a ton from that guy and will learn more but I think they need someone else. Id like to see them start machining heads and blocks. And get a knowledgeable machinist and a knowledgeable porting and cam guru together. Keep a host and builder like Frankie. Then we could watch the entire process of an engine build. Show how to get engines for cheap in scrap yards and pull a parts. And one last thing take the most popular cars that people are driving and show how to fix common issues associated with that type of vehicle this could be but this could be on a different show or platform. Just my opinion that if they captured these different phases it'd attract a lot of people. No offense to Pat but they need someone less goofy and a lil more cool.
We want Mike Hunt back .
I agree. I do miss Mike though.
The synergy between these two is great! I love Powerblock!
AWESOME. ""PLEASE PLEASE"" can you do an episode like this or even with this engine comparing ""PROPANE"" on a low compression motor and the same on a high compression version. Propane is way cheaper to run as a daily, High Octane, but burns slow, so the compression should help. may need harder valves. Also it would be neat to see how much power can be had by testing stock vs recurved Dizzy with these combos. I love to see what is possible if you build the engine for the fuel instead of limiting the engine because of the fuel . Love the show guys. Keep em coming. Thanks. Tom B.
This PLEASE. So many guys turning their old trucks to propane when I browse classifieds. Im sure I and a lot of other enthusiasts would love to see the actual hard data and what is possible.
That old 300 ford would've been a good candidate for propane.
Propane is very compression friendly. We used to use it when starting up diesels in the winter up in northern Canada. Also, you can use it like nitrous, but for a diesel.
@@nicksupplee4805 My old 300 was built for propane, so it's great for gas too.
@@guffalump756 this is interesting. Propane conversions were popular in Australia 30 years ago but have more recently become uneconomical and it's becoming difficult to find a fueling station that still has it available.
It’s the eyebrow. When his right eyebrow goes up then the tune is right and the numbers are going to be good.
Definitely poker telltale. ;-)
🤣🤣
475 HP with the mid size cam was definitely the one that suited this combination.
Very respectable numbers across the board.
The midsized cam made 480 the big cam only made 476.... J.s.
The dual plane was the cork here. Needed a high rise single plane to exploit the compression and cam timing. I think the heads on 360ci will support more than they think. 190cc heads on an overbored 351w can support 550hp+ .
I used to think working as a DJ in a stripper bar was the best job in the world but I think these guys got me beat
I once had a 350, .30 over, Lunati race cam, heads built by Ed Pinks shop, and other goodies with a solid 350T 2200 stall converter in a '86 El Camino. I miss it😔
I would also.
Put a single plane intake! Send it!
Exactly
Did Frankie get the learning from Pat? Looking at the pocket and seeing what I do. The answer is Yes!
Pat seems like a pain in the arse to work with. Frankie is smart and eager. They manage to make it work well.
Pat and Frankie are the dad and son of engine building, great rev head dynamics there. Time to get a C8 motor and tune on that to see what is reliably capable, cost, parts, results, get it done boys?
Also like to see the boys get a hold of one of those Aussie Ford Barra 4litre inline six and tune on that, and do their own 2k barra build and then see the other shop boys drop it into a mustang project car.
Love to see you guys do a 427 tall deck for towing.
Love to see power #'s for it with higher compression pistons and better heads. Then go to a 4 inch crank for a 454 talldeck final. Possibly play with boost on both applications....
Fe 427 for towing
@@MrBlackbutang427FEs have thin cylinder walls and a relatively short stroke, a 428 style FE with the long stroke crank or the 390 bore size and 428 crank 410 Mercury FE would be a better choice for a towing application IMO. Besides 427FE blocks are rare as hell and belong in a period correct 60s NASCAR or drag race replica car.
There isn't much reason to mess with a 427T BBC, they've been out if production over 30yrs, not very common, if you really wanted to use one of them the thing to do would be a long stroke undersquare build, like a 4.5"+ stroke with thick cylinder walls for durability, built for tq down low and low peak rpms, maybe 5000rpms, so, relatively small port volume, probably use a head designed for a 396/402, dual plane intake, dynamic compression in the 87oct neighborhood. You could probably get just as much durability and power building common Gen V or VI 454 block with a better package, more intake, ignition and exhaust choices. Simple, common rotating assembly and pushrod choices too. You can go hydraulic roller cam also for durability, simplicity and less frictional power losses
Checking out the marks on the balancer is one example of how someone would go get some special gizmo, but Pat pulled a ruler from the "Pocket" and gets it done before the other guy wakes up.
Love these kind of builds!
My 13’ Ram was built just like this so it could be a nice street oriented truck💪🏻
394Ci 6.4L Stroker with 11:4:1 compression, 233/246 112LSA cam, 6.4L variable intake manifold, and a forged bottom end. We found out on the dyno that this setup created a restriction with the 300CFM Eagle Heads. I made 30Ib’s more torque than horsepower with that big cam.
What eagle heads are you using? Stock ones flow like 330/180 on a 4.06 bore
@@timothybayliss6680Stock Eagle heads that were originally on my motor, they were cleaned, rebuilt, & decked .010 over. And they are not Apache 6.4L heads, my motor is a stroker motor. And, I’ve never seen stock Eagle heads in person flow over 300CFM’s.
However, the Apache heads with the 4.09in bore flow 330CFM, but I have not seen them on the flow bench yet.
I want to see what a 454ci stroker kit will do in one of those 6.4/6.2 blocks, you need a Holley Hi-Ram or something on that beast from the sound of it.
Sucks more air for the low end
Great finish to this series...really enjoyed it.
I love that you’re going over the fundamentals of engine dynamics. Would be fascinating to see you take a route type supercharger to 1 atm. What would you have to change to do that?
With that much static compression, they would have to retard the cam timing a bunch to drop the dynamic compression and go very conservative on the ignition timing and run rich on the fuel. It would be wise to try E85 pump fuel because that would be expensive on race gas.
You gotta do an episode with the intake manifold change and 1.6 rockers if it doesn't already have them. Chevrolet for life!!
Already had them I believe they were 1.66
With that kind of compression I would do a solid roller single plane intake and a bigger head zip it up around 7000 rpm then see what she will do. That motor should make well over 500 hp.
yeah, they should have at least tried a single plane with the larger cam
Fishing those lifters up SAVED you time? C'mon now....😄
Love you guys together though and everything you do. Keep em coming boys!
400 small block time? I have one and like to see what you guys can do with one.
Would liked to have seen them advance the smaller cam to increase dynamic compression and test before switching to the bigger cam.
I second that as well for both cams, just so you can really see how much your leaving on the table for the ability to run pump gas
You guys have the dream jobs. Of all time.
For sure. They don't have to pay for a garage to work in or ANY kind/type of tool had a chassis Dyno but have an engine Dyno. They get free head/cams/rods and all the other parts for free and the get paid tool play around with them all. This is by far and ahead my dream job. Hopefully one day I can do something like this.
TL;DR They left a lot pump gas peak power on the table running flat ignition timing and it picked up only 3 hp and 3 ft*lb going from 230 to 246 deg intake duration.
I noticed that too 👀
You mean they took off the vacuum advance?
@@cammykakes5420 no, it needs an rpm-based curve at WOT to allow more retard at low rpm (where it was probably knocking on pump gas) and more advance at high rpm (where it was very far from MBT)
@@mattbirt114 Can you show a link about this, or do you mean a digital ignition control box like MSD 6AL?
@@cammykakes5420 I think he meant "locked" ignition timing- no curve. A performance engine as installed in a vehicle almost always has it's timing "all in" in the rpm range that the engine is tested on the dyno.
I would love to see a factory 1970 ls6 run on the dyno to see what the numbers really was on it. I heard stories that is was advertised as 450 hp but really way over 500 hp
You can see one on the dyno on Richard Holdener’s channel
with accessories it produced under 400hp as tested in the car
The actual cam lift is not significant because we all know Powernation would readily give that specification for the viewing audience. These two guys probably understand that better than the vast majority of engine builders.
The new stuff coming out of power nation is awesome.
I expected more than 475 from a 13:1 motor ?? I built my own evac system 30 + years ago using air injection valves that were current emissions systems of the day as the moroso system was out of my budget
Just had a chance to get out of the heat and eat. Throw on some Power Nation on TV and had to say!!! Keep up the great work Guys!!..Pat ever near NW Oklahoma.. always welcome!!!
Small cam is optimized for the intake based on not a whole lot of gain from the big can. , pretty sure mid throttle response is a lot better with small cam on street
Just low end torque
I wonder what would have happened with a hotter plug & better fuel without the big cam & extra timing 🤔
@@bigboreracing356 how significant are the gains when doing so ?
Proof that just because you can make something work within certain constraints doesn't mean it's even close to optimized. Every time I use VP Q-16 it's good for around 10 HP.
Would be interesting to see how a 4/7 firing order swap effects the performance of this engine.
Not sure it makes much more power, but I believe it may increase longevity via balancing harmonic vibration, etc. I've never seen big increases but they always run well, but always have all top of the line parts so idk. Have you seen big differences? I too am curious.
Richard Holdener has tested this already and he has found no changes.
@@bri-manhunter2654 thanks for the reply I was genuinely curious.
It really depends on the cam profile and the indication. In most cases not much but just a tad hp n a tad more trq... Like 2-5hp and 4-7 ft lbs. So it would only matter in an all out racing situation. I agree with less harmonics and extended engine like albeit the same just a tad lol
Might as well go to a full LS firing order swap, maybe even run LS coils as well. It might not add much power but that firing order puts more even pressure on the main bearings, same order a 351w runs, LS and Windsor both love boost which is even more aggressive cylinder pressure than 13:1 static once you hit big boost.
Gentlemen, This video series may be slightly over the average guys head. However, it was very technically interesting. Maybe the next video should show what max power could actually made with street size heads and that much compression. Also the inverse… How much max power can be made on pump gas? A little porting… I’m guessing that your average viewer wants to see that. How much power can the sleeper guy make NA? Love the show!
That kind of compression would just LOVE my gasifier truck. Octane 130 on woodgas, the more compression the better. Problem would be I need that smaller cam for more vacuum so it breaths the fuel in correctly. Sucks there is so little info on actually building a motor for woodgas
Do folks turbo woodgas engines?
@@BuffMyRadius there are some guys playing around with it but it's rather difficult to do because you're having to compress a mixture of air and wood gas through the turbo there are one guy I know of that supercharging engine but just could not find a way to make it work very well most guys are just running with that little bit less horsepower the wood gas provides and living with it being okay with it but for something like my light duty Toyota pickup with a small block Chevy V8 the loss of horsepower isn't really noticed I probably have as much if not more horsepower than the four-cylinder ever put out on wood so I'm okay with it
That was a good exercise for showing comp/timing increase; but we already knew about it, right?..I'm interested in E55/E85 differences and compression increase from stock to 13:1, relative to a swapped LS cam like your 230* cam; and increased timing in a vehicle, relative to it's weight and gearing. Which is what your dyno dreams lack, relative to detonation, right? You're selling the power parts to racers, but it's the same old "reg guys" who want to feel more roll-on power from the same engine, without swapping everything for the occasional top end rush.
With E85 just add all the timing while cooling the motor at the same time, lol.
To take full advantage of the higher octane fuel you need to put the cam timing back to normal to give the engine a true 13 to 1. You keep saying 13 to 1 but the cam timing isnt giving the engine 13 to 1. So the added octane isnt giving the engine the added power it was the added timing since that engine is technically a low compression engine. Set cam timing back to normal and run the test again with the high octane fuel and you will see 500 plus hp. Since then the engine will be a true 13 to1.
Exactly, it renders to not fully using the racing fuel potential if you de-tune the static high compression to a much lower dynamic compression. The only thing changed in this setup is the high advance of the timing. Also the bigger cam flows more at higher rpms which clearly show in the graph but they don't go there despite the enhanced internal.
@@AlfaRomeo156SWGTA right not sure what they thought by this video that we didn't know what was going on or we are ignorant but saying 13:1 when you have changed cam timing and said it really is 8.5 or 9 to 1. Almost sounds to me they don't know or they are ignorant. Having a low compression engine with low timing then raising timing after adding race gas of course is going to increase HP but not because of the fuel. Would have done the same outcome with just increasing timing with pump gas. Sometimes I think these guys are really smart and good at what they do then they do something like this and makes me realize that I'm wasting my time watching power nation.
More cam advance for larger camshaft. should be used And so they big block mopar test they removed the intake and EFI and used more race intake and Holley carb huge power increase over 30
They did advance the cam timing, the engine needs a single plane so it can rev higher and create more HP. It has all the ingredients to make close to 550hp IMO maybe even close to 600hp, I don't think the heads are a restriction on only 360ci like they were saying.
I would like to see A towing motor for A dually see if y’all can make all the power down low!
I like it ! Street power in a big fatty station wagon , like the numbers on the small cam realize it's iron heads I grew up on , them aluminum heads are tasty
Glad to see Pat in shape!
No offense Frankie you are doing well and going to be a master working with/Pat!!! ⚡
Seems intake closing is the significant factor for how much horsepower, fair bit of difference in the cams.
i like these videos. really learn a lot from them.
This a motor with to much compression for street gas with only 22 total was severely limited! If it would of had 10.5;1 compression and premium gas and 36 degrees total it would of made more than the high compression with restriction limited 22 degrees of timing!
Agreed. Timing has a far greater effect on power than compression.
E85 it than💪🏻
the wide LSA and a huge compression drop with the bigger cam, I want to see 11:1 dynamic with the Larger camshaft , or even 13 :1 if you can thast way we can see the same improvements , adding race fuel and timing advanced. i mean that here they says 9:1 Dynamic that is 89 Octane No need for 118 octane
I haven't searched your other videos so maybe the answer to my question is already there ? Anyhow, can you explain your calculation of dynamic compression and how that gives you cam timing ? And then how about a run with both cams straight up now you're using racing fuel ?
Please do a comparison of the race fuel to a good quality e 85 to show us the difference in performance AND cost
PLEASE !!!!!
Now the single plane please?
Uncle Pat you Rock!!!!!
Do you guys use Race-Gas?
Stuff is freaking great. Especially if your daily is boosted.
They used to use it, must have lost them as a sponsor.
If yer daily requires race gas you probably won't drive it daily
I noticed you connected the rear coolant port on the head to the flow. How is that working out?
It works great on a parallel coolant flow engine like the chevy,, not so grwat on a series flow engines like most fords!
The fuel jokes had me laughing too hard.
🤣🤣🤣🤣
I really want to see a single plane on that engine and closer 7000 rpms. I think those heads should do fine since it's only 360ci. I am not sure how the differences work but, I have seen where a 357ci 351w based engine with 190cc TFS 11Rs made like 595hp and a single plane. I don't think it had 13:1 static compression either. Might be cool to see what E85 from the pump would make in there too. I would think it would perform nearly as well as that expensive 118 race gas and would make the engine affordable to run for the right guy who has that fuel readily available.
That's great. But what about the other direction. Most small blocks (GM, Ford, Chry) will operate with increased compression. What is the maximum static/dynamic ratio for 87 octane at Tenn atmospheric pressure?
If Pat were a superhero what would his name and character be? Show related and be nice.
Do a solid roller 108 lobe sep 254/ 260 632 lift and a Super Vic intake
Been following u guys for a while would love for you to restore me a fair lady Z . Would be a tough project ik it. I'ma young guy In ATL Georgia would love for you to find one and put a 3v heavenly modified forged mustang engine. never had my dad in my life but I'm 22 and just love your channels and would love to get you guys really pumped and good challenge
I would love to see a comp 292h cam and 9.5:1 compression in a small block Chevy on the dyno.
Not that a 292h cam won't work with a 9.5 to 1 compression small block this cam is better suited for a engine with 10.5 to 1 or more compression with a descent flowing cylinder head l had a all forged 383 with a 294s camshaft with AFR 190 cylinder heads with 10.5 to 1 compression it made 460 horsepower at the crankshaft at 5800rpm with a RPM air gap intake and a tuned holley 650 double pumper with mechanical secondaries it had really good mid range torque but was somewhat disappointed in its upper rpm power above 6000rpm that's when torque really dropped off quickly no need to rev it past 6200rpm that being said a 292s cam in a 350 small block with 9.5 to 1 compression with a decent cylinder head should make 375-400 horsepower at the crankshaft just my opinion but a 274 camshaft will probably be better suited with your 9.5 to 1 compression ratio with a duration of 224-230 the cam you listed has 244 duration and I'd consider it a pretty big camshaft for 9.5 to 1 compression engine but it will work this 244 duration camshaft in a 350 won't start pulling real hard until 3500rpm and if your running a 383 or 406 small block with a 3.75 stroke it will start pulling hard around 2800-3000rpm the problem with a 9.5 to 1 compression engine is torque will be dropping my 5000rpm by 5500rpm it's dropping like a brick off a cliff as you push the engine above 5500rpm you are going to feel the engine torque drop off as you push it to redline is the reason many want 10.5 to one or more compression and a bigger camshaft
@@bigboreracing356 any decent running V8 in a 2400 pound car with 4.11 gears and a 3800 stall converter will be fast this same setup in a 3500 + pound vehicle would be + 1 second slower but your right something that weighs 2400 pounds with 330+ rear wheel horsepower will be fast with 4.11 gears and a 3800 stall converter when l had a 1984 Monte Carlo SS with a 292h camshaft in a 350 with 10 to 1 compression with 4.10 gears and a 3000 stall and a turbo 350 transmission that weighed 3600 pounds with me in it it ran 8.8 at 80mph in the eighth mile my 2011 Camaro SS with many upgrades a new GM performance LS3 495 horsepower crate engine with a built 6L80e automatic transmission and a circle D 4200rpm stall converter and stock 3.27 gears ran 7.40s at 94mph in the eighth it weighs 3920 with me in it and cruises the highway at 80mph at 2100-2200rpm with air conditioning naturally aspirated
Would love to see an old Buick straight 8 build
Forged pistons aftermarket rods and good valve traine. Why not go to 6500-7k
Lol pat can only handle hearing the kid rambling on about stuff nobody cares about!!! And then as usual after dyno an engine , they both so ready to go home u cant understand there conversation like there jacked up on something, lol love the videos
How did they calculate and measure compression ratio with Intake Center line? Sounds like that's what they said at 11:08
Who else didn't quite understand how advancing the cam timing affects the compression static ratio??
It does not affect the static compression ratio. It affects the dynamic compression ratio by changing when the intake valve closes.
@@jeffnewton3507 ok, thanks for clarifying jeff appreciated, still i wonder how such valve events affect the dynamic comp. Can that promote detonation too?
What are the cam lift numbers?
The bigger cam will reduce compression like a big vacuum leak. The cam phasing change invalidates the test based on your description.
WOW We made over 600hp with a pump gas 355? Currently running mid 10s@3250lbs
Stacey joe and mike need to make a comeback they were the best by far .
What's the lift on both cams?
Not a challenge for Pat , I love watching and listening to these guys , Pat puts it in Leigh man terms, if Pat couldn't fish it out in his sleep I would have to see the fail. Dude has built a , modesty like he would say is oh couple hundred or so. LOL 😂
I'm licky enough to have a sunoco and VP fuel farms close to me... I get c16 or GTplus for 9 bucks a gallon.
A LSA of 107 would really help.
The only damn reason race fuel is so expensive?
Outright GREED !
1,49
43,11
timing events at .050 small
cam
17, 49
64,8
big cam
look at that intake opening difference
look at that exhaust opening difference
yet.
little change in power.
Cylinder heads and intake is the culprit
Key word static....I wanna know what the cranking psi is & large cam will drop it !!
Id like to see this engine with that single plane and then dual quads, please, thank you
Nice numbers! How do you translate these dyno numbers into shift points for a drag race? also consider maybe the difference between an M-22 (1000 rpm drop per gear) transmission and an M21 (800, 800, 1200 rpm drop).
Muncie m22 and m21 have the same ratios. M20 is the wide ratio trans.
You guys need to do a gas to e85 swap on a carburetor and a non E85 EFI engine since the prices of fuel are so high.
My 1995 camaro with a 5.7 made thisnpower with 93 octane
Thanks for a another great episode 👍
How to make pump gas stretch now we built all these gas guzzlers thanks
I have a slightly unrelated question if I may? Timing lights. I see you use what looks like a Snap-On style timing light for your settings and adjustments. What would be a good quality timing light for the hobbyist who is using a MSD type ignition to buy that doesn't cost the earth? Thanks.
Will engine power ever be back on cable tv , used to have airings on nbc sports for me?
Time for better heads and more Dyno time.
This is the epitome of
I put all my money in my truck it better run
Between the different set ups would cranking compression change ? Keith
Can you just try it with the regular performance carburetor.
What about...leaving everything the same...except...adding another compression ring...???
Any experience doing this...?
You got voluntold to change the radiator
so at what point do you start using the crank case evaluation kit ? Will it work on a stock engine or mildly built engine or only competition engines ?
$20/gal!!! FJB
FDT
2:25... they're in there... 💵
Very good video
Asking here....why is 13:1 comp ratio on pump gas such a big deal in old school push rod engines. My KTM 890 is 13.5:1 and runs on 91 just fine.
Hardened valve seats in the bike helps
@@youcanbesmartaskhow3857 and the combustion chamber shape, piston crown shape, spark plug location, and a ton of other things
I would think that the cam profile of the bike would be a lot wilder than a cam in a SBC, I would think the dynamic compression would be lower in the bike and have more of a top end peak, not a great deal of low end torque
@@ZedTee77 now that makes sense! Thanks
trt ut at 39 degrees !!!
Is there a published formula that you are using to do dynamic compression ?
I wonder how much HP the small block Mopar would've had if you had placed Trick Flow heads on it, bigger cam etc like the sbc? Just so we could have an apples for apples comparison. Good show all the same.
been Done already , see Simpsons speed shop u tube
@@smilsmff yeah saw that
Cheers😊
I don’t understand why you put a bigger cam in it and then spun it to the same RPM you did with a small cam makes no sense that cam’s not gonna start really pulling hard until after 6000 RPM
The dual plane probably ran out of breathing room on top. And it also depends on the head flow CFM’s. On my 394Ci 6.4L stroker I’m having to shift at 6,200rpms because of maxing out the 300CFM Eagle heads.
@@bri-manhunter2654 Oh no I build engines for a living I’ve ran the RPM intake in many Dyno tests to 6500 on lots of combinations 383s-400s to 6500 with similar camshafts and that 360cid sbc was definitely not peeking at 6000rpm, regardless it wouldn’t have made a Ton more, just surprised
@@bri-manhunter2654 you’re talking about a completely different engine platform you can’t compare that to a 350 Chevy no offense
@@DSRE535. I definitely believe you.
Do a video on a 2UZ FE
OK so what was the LIFT of the 2 cams ?
I wanted to ask a question what would be the best to swap a hellcat into a 1996 ram 1500 for the train and to handle the power