Pendulum Turns v Trail Braking. Which is faster?
Vložit
- čas přidán 20. 06. 2024
- Pendulum turns (also known as the scandinavian flick) and trail braking are two very important techniques in rally driving. Although they both have their place, we wanted to find out which technique was truly faster. Armed with a Subaru WRX and stopwatch, Team O'Neil instructor Max Garneau takes to our day three course setup to see which technique was fastest through a right hand 90 degree corner.
Learn more about us at teamoneil.com
Click here to book a course: teamoneil.com/driving-courses/
Supported by:
Optima Batteries
www.optimabatteries.com/en-us...
Hawk Performance Brakes
www.hawkperformance.com
Ford Performance
performance.ford.com
Koni Shocks
www.koni-na.com/en-US/NorthAm....
Monster Energy
www.monsterenergy.com
AMSOIL
www.amsoil.com/
MB01W0RA85YUIKR - Auta a dopravní prostředky
I feel like this could be a whole series, analyzing different corner/terrain/grade combinations
Would be amazing
FWD, 4WD and RWD, but i think RWD is already gone at this point...
It's always going to be different for every driver, every car, every surface, every temperature, ect. You really have to train so many techniques or just be fearless and lucky, constantly pushing to the edge to be fast.
but he need driver. His skils are like my english. Bad.
Forgot I had it set to 1.25x speed, and I was like "holy shit they are ripping it through this course!"
Now maybe set up a corner that shows the advantage of a pendulum turn.
Yes!
First thing I thought when I read the title and saw the pic. My understanding is that pen. turns are better when you're haulin' and need to bleed a ton of speed off for one or many tight turns.
IMO it's effective when the straight before a corner is short since this technique is more on getting through tight corners not for slowing down before corners
In all fairness, he does mention when the flick would be more beneficial
IMO clean is faster like 99% of the time. Loeb got 9 championships and re-wrote the textbook on rally driving with a good reason.
I'd love to see this test done in one of your Fiesta's to see if there is any difference going to a lighter and FWD vehicle. Great stuff guys!
Wyatt was a simple and raw type of car guy, not scared of running without assists unlike most people on youtube. I'm sure Team O'Neil shares the same views, he will be missed, especially by me. But I'll keep watching if the mentality and content of this channel stay the same, which I'm sure it will, keep it up!
That top down view was really good
WYATT! I know it's only youtube, but it feels like he already teaches me a lot and in person.
Fantastic video, awesome instructions Max, excited to see more from you!
TLDR: Tidy and Precise tends to be faster than Loose and Spectacular.
That about sums up Sebastian Loeb's 9 consecutive WRC WC's. We watch and love rally for the spectacular but neat and tidy (while at the limit) is what marks the fastest drivers & co-drivers.
@@laxlaxlaxx As they say, the boring driver wins the race. That wasn't the case for Toivonen tho, even crashing a lot.
"boring driver wins the race"
What about Ari Vatanen, Colin Mcrae and many others?
@@racecardriverrr4201 Before computers yeah, there was that thing called "talent" . Wanna see Lewis Hamilton fans losing their minds? tell them, he is nothing out of mercedes. Put him at Haas with MazeSpin and you will see how truly good he is.
@@hbtm2951 Why are you talking about f1 so out of the blue
Wouldn't trail braking be easier on the tires as well? Over a few miles of these turns, tire life could be drastically different between the techniques.
It'll definitely result in fewer punctures.
awesome video! hopeee you keep adding rally videos! we learn a lot
Great line visualizations
This man is a truly legend. He is teaching us with the best way to do it - wonderful car, special track, co-drivers and a whole team of operators. I was surprised when i saw the vid only got less than 1k likes.
this is something i've been wondering and having to figure out myself (in sim! not irl.) i drive older cars, mostly the group 4 quattro which obv understeers a ton; i found myself penduluming a LOT, more than i should, and began realizing that having to brake so far back was losing time in the long-run (and, ime, setting up for worse exits with more wheelspin because of momentum from the line from setting up the pendulum, if that makes sense)
I think for the dynamics of a subaru with it being front weighted trail braking is the best to get the car turning. pendulum turns are fun and for a lower speed will work better but if you are above like 30 mph trail braking is the way to go. Like he said though that is only if you have good front grip. When things get a bit more slick you cant trust the brakes to shift the weight to get the car to turn you have to use the suspension and weight of the pendulum. This works for dry or wet tarmac also. I have played around with missmatching front and rear tires as well. fun stuff.
Ogier is always trail braking, he is the definition of rally mastering.
I think the pendulum turn is more suited to cars that tend much more towards understeer (like the famous Quatro S1).
I'm sorry to say, but this channel just doesn't feel the same without Wyatt.
What happened to Wyatt?
I feel the same. Wyatt is a great presenter. But let's give them a chance. For me it was one of the best (useful, interesting, fun, etc.) channel on CZcams, and I hope it stays that way.
@@Genarek8 I agree, lets give them a chance. Being a good presenter takes practice and hard work. If they are willing to try I'm willing to watch.
@@Genarek8 Totally! I didn't mean any disrespect to the new folks. I'll still give it a chance. The mood just feels way different. I just really enjoyed Wyatt's presentation style. His energy was infectious.
@@beri2652 he sadly passed away. RIP.
nice comparison!
probably, you're mostly right: choice of flick versus trail depends heavily on track conditions, drivetrain and even slipness of pre-turn breaking segment
nevertheless - your examples show differences quite in details
I'd love to see this same process applied to different corner scenarios. Ie: Trail brake corner 1 into pendulum corner 2 or vice versa. Awesome stuff!
Can be retitle McRae VS Loeb. Very cool content!
I think a lot of the time, pendulum turns are just messy and a waste of time. It might help with cars that understeer massively or if you're in a drift event . But apart from that, a neater line is always faster. Thanks for making this video guys!
Welcome Max (Wyatt 2.0?) Good segment. Useful info. I don't feel so bad about not being proficient at pendulum turns. Good effective trail braking can be just as fast.
Great video. I want to spend a month up there.
that subaru sounds really great.
imo any kind of drifting in a rally race has always been about car positioning, never about if it really was faster or not
there are tight corners or consecutive corners, where the consistency of a fast exit is preferable over a fast corner
I think it would be a bit disingenuous to the sport to say that drifting isn't advantageous to do the fastest way possible. It certainly isn't the only factor but it is a factor.
@@magicstew45 Actually, if you do mud tracks, they'll teach you that drifting is indeed fastest way to get around a loose mud track.
Max - Fantastic job on the videos! Your hard work on these is invaluable to all of us out here!
One question, when you mention you’re dropping to fist gear in the turn, how are you doing this while right foot braking? Are you able to do a clutchless downshift or are you moving to right foot braking in the turn?
We are glad you enjoy the videos and appreciate you watching them!
On the downshift in this case, we were still left foot braking in the corner but grabbing the downshift once our left foot was free on corner exit when we are off the brakes already ready to accelerate.
I think depending on the situation one might be faster , like scand flicks are good for linking turns
Scandinavian flicks are more "impressive" to look at from a standing point, but I bet they are far more harder to make and potentially are slower almost in any case compared to trail braking. They were definitely cool to see at older rally cars.
Amazing content as always! Can you do this same test with a 911?
Good video!!..pedals cam would make it perfect
I own that exact same wrx wagon you guys are driving! Could I ask what that car has for suspension? Stock power plant? I plan on building mine for rallycross and possibly stage rally! Thanks for the information! Have a great day
Our WRX is running on some Koni adjustable sport dampers, and a fully stock engine. It does have an exhaust, roll cage and full underbody protection.
@Team O'Neil I'm curious, is the brake bias stock in this car or does it have a more rearward bias? And in a stock WRX is the bias controlled by the abs module? If so, how does that work when the modules unplugged?
Great content as usual! Consider adding a pedal cam in the next videos, maybe? ;)
Pendulum : → ↗ ↘
Trail Braking : → → ↘
VW Golf : → → → →
I would like to see you guys try to use temporary hand controls on the trails you drive on
Reminds me of college. Stats say trail braking. Test answer is "depends"
It also depends on how tight the corse is and how sharp a turn. With a nice wide track you can get more out of a trail braking turn since you can brake later and widen the turn. If you are in a very tight track with a sharp sudden turn than the pendulum will get the car oriented quickly in a minimal space. A well executed pendulum can pull a 180 well wishing the maximum turn radius of the car. So it really depends on the course, but if you have the option then trail braking is smoother, and smooth is fast.
Pendulums definitely have their place. Most of the time, trail braking is going to be your best bet but when you need a lot of rotation or you run wide and need to correct, pendulums are great option.
Interesting video and great skills, of course. Are you left foot braking in either or both of these techniques here?
Always left foot braking!
@@Teamoneilrally Ah, I thought so. And, thinking back to one of your other videos, clutchless down changes to grab first coming out of the pendulum turn? :)
Just wondering what would be recommended for a 600 H.P. - 700 H.P. rwd automatic transmission vehicle (aka mustang or similar) for rally, offroad, and street/highway use. welded diff, detroit locker, selective locker (aka ox locker or similar), eaton truetrac.
What happened to wyatt?
Is it the same if you have less grip? Also what kind of car setup is ideal for trail braking? Is it going to work on an oversteer car setup?
In the same surface conditions a softer set up would be better. Your set up depends on the surface conditions. Trail braking can be applied to any conditions.
If the road is very slippery, you might need that side to weight transfer working for you to get the car rotated and pointing where you want to go. If a car is more prone to oversteer, you might not need the side to side weight transfer from a pendulum to get it to rotate.
Interesting, makes you think about keeping the car at a higher speed for more of the track. The trail brake keeps you off throttle the least amount of time. But that's mainly for after a straight, right?
Correct! But also it depends what corner comes after and how you want to position the car. If next corner was getting tighter (3R tightens 2R) would be better to do a pendulum maneuver and get higher speed on the exit.
Not necessarily, you don't always have to start your trail brake in a straight line. Trail braking is certainly a great option if you are coming out of a straight away and into a corner but it is not limited to this scenario.
1. surface (tires too) gets warmer + each time less small rocks .More grip =drive more like on tarmac . Each try you drove with different style ;) cant even see if you brake while making the flick .
2. the scandinavian flick works better more on harpins or in much faster ,long corners ,)
3 .the subbi is heavy and can bite the surface on such grippy gravel while braking .
Anyways good that people making test like that :) People want mores test ,)
You should add a peddle cam it would help to learn when and how much you break.
You should have put a foot camera 📸 to show us how to do it
might help to do a side by side video
Where is Wyatt? Appreciated his videos
He no longer works for Team O'Neil
its bcs when u drive straight u have better feel for how much grip u have, instead of driving sideways and changing directions, than u cant feel 100% how much exact grip u have at each moment, and u rely on power, thats why u are faster with trail braking... but I believe when u have thousands of kms with exact car u can minimize those differences when u know how to drive on edge with that exact car and setup :)
yep DEPENDS, weather, what you're driving on, off camber corners etc.
Now I want to know, can you pendulum turn and trail brake at the same time? How would that fare?
Stay tuned on that one!
Try doing the same comparison in a RWD Escort + BDA and you might get a different result
Where is my boy Wyatt!?
Isn't the road more clean and giving some advantage at the trail braking laps?
Conditions were the same for both sets of runs.
Fast doesn’t feel fast and what feels fast isn’t fast. I heard.
Is there a reason you put the word trail in front of braking? How is it different from ordinary braking?
Braking normally, you do all the braking in a straight line, then lift off and turn.
In trail braking you brake firmly in a straight line, but then instead of letting go of the brake altogether you gradually ease off as you come to the apex of the turn, which extends your braking zone further into the corner. Depending on the car, surface and setup, it can also help induce a little bit of controlled oversteer to bite the nose into the corner a little better.
@@chrisnightingale6917 Thank you. So the term "trail" is not related to the surface but more the trailing of the brakes right?
@@psc7949 Correct, it's also used in road racing and even small ovals
The only way to test this is to exit the corner onto a straightaway and measure exit and top speed after the corner
By pendulum do you mean Scandinavian flick?
Correct
Pendulum is for cars that are not properly equipped.
I'm guessing there would be more time gained with left foot braking and the turbo spooled up. Also trail braking would be more consistent
We were left foot braking for this test. Surprisingly shifting down into first to keep the turbo spooled up yielded a slower time. Trail braking is definitely a much more predictable option... not always as fun definitely more predictable!
What are the rims on this wrx? They look awesome
They are Fifteen52 Integrale Gravels, they do look sweet!
You muricans are little weird, but one has to admit you have COMMITMENT ! :) Keep it up !
Future video: run a disk brake proportioning valve against a drum brake P-valve in a all disk brake car. It's fun let's hear side
Looks like Gabe from the office
it seems to me like it's really hard to tell with just one corner. driving a car sideways is a whole different mindset than driving it straight, so when you go from a lot of driving straight and slow into an aggressive flick ofc your brain can't adapt quickly enough. i want this to be measured in the flow state of driving
i mean maybe your brain cant adapt quick enough, Rally drivers can np.
@@HAHA.GoodMeme that's because when you're rallye driving you are basically in the flow state constantly and you also don't think what move to use next but just use whatever suits the situation. that's why i would like to know how the results were in such situations.
I feel like a pendulum would be better at a 90deg or tighter turn, not a wide sweeper. Also, if you could scrub speed with the pendulum more instead of braking as much, maybe this scenario would be a fast
Scandinavian flick
Sorry Max...but where the hell is Wyatt?
The boiling water wagon 😋
pendulum turn = scandinavian flick?
Correct
the difference in speed is not the reason for a pendulum swing verse a trail braking situation, this turn has a wide exit so it of course going to be faster to trail brake, if you needed to stay on that inside line by the apex it would have been faster for the pendulum.
Honestly
I do not care much about what is faster. I just wanted to see someone do a few skids on a car
Goes to show that when your tires are sliding they are wasting ie transferring kinetic energy to the wrong place.
Hey
Hi
Obviously sliding around must be quicker 😜
How about try a 4x4 truck.
Do the same test in a tight hairpin.
Eh, seeing how it got slower each times during pendulum turns compared to trail braking, i'd say he's biased and did so on purpose...
Bicycle helmet??!!??😅😅😅😅
We want wyatt back
There is nothing more disorienting than keeping interior audio live with no explanation; meanwhile overlaying external camera shots. So that proved it, trail braking is faster;... ok.
Dude in his next to stock Subaru combi explaining how to drive rally car....priceless....
BLOB WAGON! SUHWWEET 🤌🤘