CNC Lathe Turn BALANCING A V8 Crankshaft ... It Did NOT Go Well!
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- čas přidán 15. 06. 2024
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Today we're working on @ScannerDanner 's 483ci Big Block Mopar for his Dodge Power Wagon. We're wrapping up the machine work with balancing the rotating assembly!
Be sure to check out the entire build series here: czcams.com/users/playlist?list...
Instagram: @jamsionline
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#bigblockmopar #cnclathe #customenginebuild - Auta a dopravní prostředky
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Would it do anything for idle quality to balance a stock engine within less than a gram? To balance a nickle on the engine while running at idle?
@@joseantoniocastrellonjr2568 Might, if you have aftermarket solid metal motor mounts.
Watching you two work and learn together is a real treat. Watching a son getting into his stride as a machinist is, I'm sure, making a father's heart swell with pride. That definitely makes for a Happy Father's Day!! Keep up the good work and keep having fun!
Thanks for taking the time to watch! I’ll be honest we were not having much fun by the end of this, but the result was satisfying and we learned a lot!
I dont care at all about the time! To get this kind of service and have it all filmed? I mean, who gets to have that?? No one!
Love what you guys have done and continue to do. My son Caleb and I will be making the trip together and filming it when it is time to pick it up. Happy Father's Day to you both!
Absolutely awesome comment, and we agree! We love your channel as well, just so amazing all the skills you have as well as this father son team! Awesome to watch!
@@ronaldstewart1094 thank you! My son Caleb and I are too a father and son team 😊
The cleaning guy is gonna make a great machinist some day. If anything, he's a patient listener.
And a firm believer in PPE when starting a new process!
You're doing a 2-plane balance. The 2 planes are defined by the 2 supports. The tendency is to remove mass from the nearest counterweights, but that's not necessarily where the excess mass actually is. You can move the supports around to see if there are other places where less mass removal is called for. The planes that require the smallest adjustments will be closest to the excess mass, and it should give you a better sense of where the excess mass is distributed.. Yes, that's a lot of extra work, but you were clearly willing to put a lot of extra work into this particular crankshaft.
I really liked how you were thinking and explaining about what happens when you remove a layer from the OD of a counterweight and how that is going to move the removal point.
I would have loved to see you remove at least some mass from nearby counterweights when you started out on the lathe. If you think about it, there's no reason to assume that all the excess mass is only on the counterweights at each end.
I really enjoy your videos; they've taught me a lot. I'm also very impressed by how well equipped your shop is and how willing the new guy is to learn from the cleaning guy.
Clever thoughts!
You don't move measurement points, but change/remove counterweights to see which tap(s) has/have the imbalance. You usually do that after you do the balancing with all weights on to get the overall balance sorted first. In this case there was plenty of weight in the outer balance weights so nothing got lost and the overall rotating mass got lower, which is good.
"Sometimes the young kid knows more than the old man." Best quote in the whole video. But, I would say knows different things than the old man. No substitute for the decades of experience, and also, numbers, math, and engineering doesn't lie. The two of you are a great combination, and it's great to watch you work together with mutual respect and each learning from each other. Happy Father's Day!
Fantastic video, I rebuilt engines for a living many years ago for flathead forklifts, but you guys are too precise for me, but I love it. Now 75 years old and still learning from you !
Love to hear it! Thanks for watching!
We like going over the top lol
I rebuild lawnmowers completey by eye and ear lol this is almost overwhelming 😂
Just an observation about your imbalance after removing material 3/4 inch in diameter by 3/4 inch deep. The center of mass of the material removed is at a smaller diameter of rotation. It's not the same as removing the weight from the surface. I would think that would affect the balance differently. I do like your videos.
If you're not learning you're not progressing. if you're not progressing you'll stand still and stagnate. Bravo for taking the extra time to learn something new for a task you've been doing for years. And awesome to see your great working relationship.
This was a roller coaster of an episode. The flipping it around on dad comments "Okay so you can do the next one on your own right?" Had me laughing pretty good.
FWIW : Years ago my machinist friend balanced my crank his method he told my was he always removed half that it asked for then re-spin it and see how much it changed he ended up much closer than it had originally it told him!. He then made a small change on 1 end then spun it again it was nearly perfect so that is where he stopped. He said in his experience it was always better to take out less material a than have to add. Not sure this is of any help or not!
@JAMSIONLINE love these more in depth videos. We used to do no drill balancing on high revving (14000rpm) cranks. We found the best place to start is with a heavy chamfer on both sides of the counterweight. The closer you get to the crank centerline the less the material removal affects balance. We'd also reduce the radius on both ends of the counterweight by 030 about 1" with a grinder to ease the inturrupted cut on the machine.
Interesting idea!
Thanks for watching and for the comment!
When balancing a crank, the end counterweights are doing all the work of bringing the whole mass into balance. There are inherent imbalances within the other counterweights that put bending forces on the rod journals resulting in radial load on the main journals. Skimming all the counterweights would equalize these individual imbalances and you could fine tune at the ends.
Another approach would be to offset the crank centerline in the lathe to bias the cut deeper at your mass offset angle at the end counterweights.
"Another approach would be to offset the crank centerline in the lathe to bias the cut deeper at your mass offset angle at the end counterweights."
My dad was an old school machinist back in the day and I wish he hadn’t switched careers, and that I’d had gotten a chance to learn machining from him. He’s still around, but retired as a truck driver for UPS after putting himself out of the machining business by building the parts for CNC machines which took away his job.
Maybe next time, try to do a chamfer on the counter weights before you do your last cut or before drilling. Overall, I think you did a great job with the spreadsheet and learned a bunch about where and when to take weight out to manage the location of the drilling. Awesome content! Thanks!
Agreed. Leaving razor sharp edges like that gives me the willies.
I like the idea of removing material at the perimeter of the counterweight rather than boring inside. Seems to me the deepest inch of material removed from the hole will have a lesser effect on the balance than a same weight removed at the outside circumference.
Happy Father's day. I really like your videos. I've been a machinist for 20 years now and I own a shop in Colorado. If you have any question about lathes. Or anything shoot me a msg
It might have something to do with dynamic imbalance. If you change a bit in one plane it (almost) always affects the imbalance in another plane. Haven’t got the faintest idea how this phenomenon is calculated and displayed on your machine. Love your channel & nice greetings from the Netherlands….
@@charlyrackitt9718definately with rpm .... I always use highest rpm . But also use lower ones to see how it changes. If it changes with rpm....its the elastic deformation changing it.
Greetz from the Netherlands
I really like the approach here, and it puts me on this train of thought:
1. Grind the end of the counterweight first to push the imbalance to the middle of each end counterweight
2. Turn down the counterweight to remove the bulk of the material
3. Finish by drilling a relatively small hole close to center, or grind both sides to finish.
Yes, I understand grinding is not fun or time-effective, but it looks so nice!
Awesome sticking to the process and making it as close to perfect as possible.
Hands down the best channel on CZcams! Awesome content guys, thank you.
Dude, I WISH the relationship between me and my father was HALF as good as you guys in the garage. Our relationship was good outside of working on cars, but get us in the garage together fixing cars, and we were at each other's throats. He had his way of doing things, and I developed my own when I started working in the dealership. I kind of wish my dad was still here to see the shop that I opened because of him getting me interested on cars when I was maybe 4-5 years old, and what he taught me over the years. I love the relationship you guys have. You both are super smart, and neither of you are above learning something from each other. You have a wonderful dad, man.
dang, I just learned a lot more about crank balancing...and had a few laughs. Thanks again!
Listen my brother balanced mountain motor cranks out of sterling bearing in Kansas City and they got some cobbed up stuff that came into there shop that he's had to redo, and correct, to get them into balance. He said that they complained about how the motors shook so bad, he didn't know how they stayed together. But he would get them in bad shape balance wise with welding all over them and not dressed drilled holes all over them like they tried and messed up in locations some deep some shallow mallory slabs slapped in them willy nelly. What you guys did here was miraculous you guys did a fantastic job he would love to see a crankshaft you guys did come through his shop for a check. You guys thought it out well procedurally, and systematically and got it done with deep thought sleeping on it, and do it correctly that was damn good guys. My brother has always said too that there is advantages to not ever getting them dead on because on the + side in grams or - side have effect that is positive to them operating different ranges when installed in a motor. When they are loaded in spinning motors, at RPM that some out of balance work better at High RPM then some of the balances help with making power down low because of all the operating variables with harmonics, loads, weights, friction, and all. You guys did excellent ! My brother would never work at getting them even that close. He has had trouble getting them to come in, sometimes not very often, but I consider him an experienced pro at balancing cranks, and he was always in high demand back in the day. Hes getting close to retirement now. Your process now you know, with a similar stuation will be to take off the face of the throws first to extract weight, then off lead edges, or trailing edges according to heavy side to move the hole back away from that edge and start your drilling removal process.
Videos are well produced with good camera work. Very resourceful with the number crunching. Machining is on point. Very enjoyable to see. 👌
Thanks for watching!!
@@JAMSIONLINE You're very welcome.
🦃 moved the traverse and crashed into the window😂 great show!
I do a few of these a week. The Forged and billet cranks cut very nicely at 200 RPM on a .032" nose.
Cast stuff is never fun.
I've had chatter like you mentioned once the cam cut is gone and it's cutting the full length of the counterweight. Figuring out better clamping, and finishing with a .016" nose insert, at 150 Rpm, gave me a clean finish without vibration/chatter.
CNMG 432, 1" tool holder
I'm extremely jealous of your enclosure though. You are correct, those chips are so hot and go everywhere. I get to do all of this on a manual lathe.
As a (dorky) engineer myself, it makes me feel good that the applied physics came out so accurate! Wasn’t spot on but with all the small assumptions made, the theory still holds true. Love the comment on this is why people hate engineers. We over analyze everything! lol
When I used to balance turbine engine rotors, we never corrected both planes at the same time. Always working on the worse end first. The 90 degree shift is a very common occurrence when you are very low imbalance and just miss the weight or angle.
My overall thought is the source of the issue (too long a weight) should be fixed first. I have adjusted vibration on many things in aviation that usually have a limited amount of adjustment locations -airplane props and helicopter rotors. The discrepancy is that the counter weight is too long for those pistons and the gross adjustment should be to grind or machine the “curvular” until the imbalance is @ TDC. At that point the lathe or a drill can be used as a fine adjustment.
David Vizard has a very good vid on crank balancing
And now you can add CNC balancing services to your list of offerings... lucky you!😊
Awesome video guys! Crank came out great and love seeing weight match worked out with math rather than grinding, and that spreadsheet is a real timesaver :clap:
New subscriber here. Just love watching your videos and watching you 2 work together! I love it. I am a retired residential construction worker and finish carpenter, and wish to this day I could do with an engine what you guys can! Absolutely amazing.
Looks like you're having a pretty good Dad's day Jim, with the learning & success you pair seem to be having with this new exercise & with your new CNC lathe!
Great sounding final balance specs at the end huh? I reckon, as you said Jim, that in taking the crank from balancer to lathe youse must have used the wrong mark.
Interesting video to watch, with bob weights n all etc. Be nice to see the assembly of the engine on the next one!
Hey what did youse have for your fathers' day lunch?
The family is getting together at Dairy Queen for supper. Mother and Father-in-law will be there, the cook and I, the bookkeeper with her husband the camera guy, Nicolaus with his wife and new daughter. The in-laws are in their mid 90's and doing well too. We are blessed.
Overcoming a challenge and acquiring the needed results is the goal's ! Thanks for sharing !
Look at it like this it's a learning experience for both of you, you guys are just getting into the balancing gig , the man that does my cranks told me he messed up a bunch of cranks when he started building race engines
One good thing is, you're both already learning CnC and myself personally, I'm not a fan of CnC but I do see it's uses and needs. Truly enjoy watching father and son work well together. I think, between you 2, you're both figuring this out and doing it your way so, KUDO's. It's really good to see that you're both learning this together and you're coming up with your own way of doing this along with a "cheat sheet" more or less.
I'm sure the owner is super appreciative of all the hard work you're both putting into this engine.
Although time consuming, to check balance after each cut compared to calculated, a cool graph could have been drawn.
also gives you data to track how close theory (math) is to reality, and in the future could make finding mistakes quicker/easier.
"we know these calculations are 'accurate' within this tolerance, so if Y and X are too far apart according to the balancer, something might be wrong."
This is the definition of a "Fantastic Engineering Video"!!! Excellent work. My only critique is sneak up on experiments in smaller increments. But, DAMN folks excellent work!!!
Thanks for another great video. It was super interesting and informative and enjoyable to watch.
Wow and wow. Getting this crankshaft the way you want it, has been super interesting!!!!!
Such a tiny adjustment to the crankshaft has made huge difference in the balance readings you were getting.
So interesting how you and dad added or removed parts of the crankshaft to making it balanced within the specifications you both wanted.
Learned a lot watching you both today. It is an honor to watch both of you work.
Thanks for everything once again.
Happy Father’s Day to both of you. Enjoy your special day.
Until next time.
The retired Air Force veteran.
This is the kind of stuff that I am interested in, and that makes you the better machinist / Mechanic / Engineer than 10 000 others out there.
Oh man, when the camera panned to your dad and he's wearing his motorcycle gear I died laughing. I accidentally woke up my wife asleep next to me. Keep up the good work gentlemen.
Well done... thoroughly enjoyed the sped sheet geekery! Also, nice to see strange stuff pop up (glad I am not the only one that kind of stuff happens to). Plus 2 points to "the kid" :)
Im thinking your spreadsheet might need a few tweaks but I feel youre on a path of real understanding!
I learn so much with your Videos! Thank You!
Hope you and Jim are having a CURVULAR Father's Day!! Excellent presentation, as the two of you are awesome peeps!
Might have to become a term used on the channel lol 😂
Thanks for watching and Happy Father’s Day!
@@JAMSIONLINE Where is George Carlin when we really need to expand on the humor?!?! I suggest Nick submit "curvular" to Mirriam Webster for the next edition.
Thanks for going through this I really appreciated you taking the time to show and figure out this.
I have so enjoyed watching this series of videos on ScannerDanner's motor! Great job!
A curiosity, you didn't add the side chamfer on the weights. Maybe consider that the next time?
HFD, there's a place that makes HSS inserts, definitely recommend for interrupted cuts. They're awesome and relatively affordable. Better surface finishes to with better chip breaking
I really enjoy watching the two of you working together. Fantastic video!
Cutting off the leading edge of the counterweight will move the center of imbalance backwards and more to the middle of the counterweight. I would start with that work to move the center of imbalance to the center of the counterweight, then shave the top of the counterweight until it’s balanced. Great show!
Just a thought. If you offset the center of the crank by about .100 (at chuck and tailstock) and rotate crank so high point was at your balance mark, then you would turn the most material at your needed removal mark instead of the whole radius of the counterweight.
To have been able to make cam shaped cuts on those counterweights would have been interesting.
Would be nice! Might be something we have to try in the future on a mill!
@@JAMSIONLINE I was going to ask: Can that lathe move the cross-slide fast enough to make cuts that aren't concentric with the axis of rotation? From this comment, I assume it can't.
Loved everything about this video.(except the "in this video" intro). Fascinating stuff and i enjoy watching the learning process for a new method. Kudos for taking the time to explore new options.
Man at 73 I remember the days when it only took one income to support a wife and 4 kids.. This has gotten so much worse for you all starting families these days.. I am sorry to hear such a thing has become the new real.... You didn't crash that insert.. come on tell the truth.. that is just your custom mark that you put on all your custom jobs.. very creative mark.. I have used that self same mark a time or two.. Yeah what fun this one was.. uh fir us not you.. that is until it was over then it's fun fun fun... thanks guys this is me favorite YT Show!
That was an emotional rollercoaster, but the final result was awesome.
Great Video Guys, I don't think any shop would go this far for a customer! Nice job!👍👍👍👍
Happy Father’s Day ❤
Great job guys! (As usual!). I do hope you dyno that big block MOPAR for a video. Have a great day. It's lunch time.
Nicely done Bently and great how your dad and uncle Dave pitched in..
Having counterweights on either side of the end journals could have allowed you to take some of the imbalance weight off of the inner one too.
I'll say your engineering education was NOT wasted. :)
Man do I agree with that!
@@ScannerDanner He lost me after "This is a crankshaft....." lol
@bushmandread pretty much me too 😅
That was very interesting. As a retired engineer in the automotive industry I can relate to a lot of what you did. I developed many excel based tools to help in automatic transmission calibration. It was great seeing how the results you got followed the predictions. With more development the predictions can only become more accurate. It also demonstrated that things can and will go wrong. Knowing how to fix it is the key. All the best, Mart in England.
I really appreciate you showing us the good, bad, and ugly. I was rooting for you to nail it on the first try.
Watching this is a phenomenal learning experience, absolutely loving it
Sorry I haven't been able to watch the live telecasts lSt couple of weeks, but boy oh boy, that new cnc lathe will let you do some serious refined work,,,, that was a fantastic final result,,, .2 and .3 gram from perfection is far better than I've ever heard of,,,, and I'm sure customer Paul will be happy with the delay once that beast is fired up, run in and tuned in the vehicle,,,,, was wonderful watching this entire process so far
I would only remove 10to15 Thousand max at a time! I know that it takes longer to get the job done but you’re lathe and floor will not shake and make you feel like the crank will fly off the lathe! I’ve done a lot of machining and doing this will make a huge improvement ! You Guy’s are doing a great job! I would bring all of my stuff to work on! Love your videos! Look forward to seeing more videos!
The only thing you didn't do was on the counterweight unit chapter the edges which would have helped. Can even the inner counterweight take a little weight off. One of my favorite things was bouncing motors. The balancing of the rotating Mass. The Mercedes motor was the most accurate rotating Mass but the rods and pistons were so far off specially the small ends on the rods.
Great video, 40 years of experience - invaluable!
I wonder how many shops would say "good enough" and send it? Watching you guys trouble shoot and stick with it was rewarding. Way to go!
You guys are fanatics in the good way! Damn the level of attention and analysis. Don't assume. Great to see you sorting out what could have gone and your engineering background creating some Excel wizardry. But also dare to put in on video while going 'wrong'.
I'm member of DIY car wrench club. One guy at the club had his engine rebuild at some shop. It used a lot of oil. Finally they found out he had 1 undersized piston in his straight 6. So probably no measurements taken just assemble some parts, wish for the best and hoping customer doesn't return. Maybe last part of previous sentence didn't even played a role.
Nope no wonder you guys almost have 700K subscribers. Though my daily job is being a Designer in digital realm I do appreciate great craftsmanship!
I wish I would have send my 5 cylinder to you guys. Apologies for 2 months over due. Here in the Netherlands I took engine away from shop no.1 cause it took them 5 months to grind the crank and flow bench 2 heads. Said to the guy "At this pace it's going to take 2 years" The guy "Yes we have a lot of regular customers". Then I went to shop no 2., now comes to part about your apologies, they received the disassembled engine Nov. 2022. They are still not done. Got a second invoice for 10 hours of labor.I believe the hours. First invoice for some machine work was 1 year before. So......yep 1.5 day labor in 1 year. Of course several discussions. "We have a lot of dealers and they want have their engine done like yesterday" I presume these jobs are more lucrative. Their work ethics stinks big time! What can I do go to shop no.3?! The results will not improve to go with bits and pieces done by already 2 different shops. So your work ethics and the way you guys want to treat customers is... yes top notch.
Keep up the great work and videos!
LOVE your videos. Hope the customer's not paying by the hour! 😂
Even if he was..... it would be worth it ! ! !
@@brucejones2354 yea I gotta tell you, I don't think many accessible machine shops pay attention to detail like these fellas. It's really a treat watching them work and problem solve!
@@brucejones2354 right? And for me to be able to watch what's being done? Yeah, that's extra for sure!
The deeper you go, the less effect it has on balance per gram removed. Thanks for your time, Pete in South Carolina
You can literally see the relief on Jim's face when it finally came in!
Quite the saga, but we all learned along the way. I love to learn.
Never doubted for one second that you couldn't figure it out and make it come out correctly. Great job.
Glad Nick has got this, me I will go sweep the floor.
Awesome work guys ❤
Make sure that encoder connector isn't moving. Use a whiteout pen and mark the connector and crank (white mark is easier to see). Also check all the set screws,etc.
HAPPY FATHER'S DAY Jim and NICK thank you for the video's
Some excellent video shots of machining good presentation.
If you use a four jaw chuck you can lathe the counter-balance with the machined portion centered over the the point where you want to take material off. Just plane and center the crank on the lathe with the center of the portion to be removed centered on one of the jaws. Then snugly set the jaws not on center and then move the centered jaws in such a way that it moves the crank out half the distance you need to remove. Use the insert to get this close. Then tighten all the chucks. Then when you lathe the counter-weight the removed portion will be in line with the balance point.
Very entertaining and interesting. Hope you guys are having as much fun making the vid as it is to watch!
I really enjoy watching you guys. Hello from Canada.
Phenomenal work as always, gentlemen
Thank you for all the content.
Thanks for watching!
You guys make such great videos.
I really enjoy your channel!!! But I'm a little sad that we didn't get a corn planting video!!!!
Extraordinary video, with fantastic in-depth mathematical processing.
Why not do more grinding on the outside edge to move the center back towards the counter weight?
Also I would have done some tapered knife edge grinding on that one edge to remove weight and get it back closer to the middle of the counterweight
That's some mighty fine work!
Absolutely great content. When you get comfortable with the lathe you will be producing the best balanced crankshafts.
Rodger whipp turned cranks all his life And held a speed record at Bondville salt flat and was my friend big age gap but as a teen i looked up to him as a hero he was in his 70s when i was 17 he was a bad ass
Awesome job guys 🎉keep up the good work 👍
So glad to see the progress in one instead of waiting weeks
Great Vid!
Don't forget about density of mass at arc length
I've operated a lathe for a few months just after high school, so take this with a tbsp of salt, but:
1) speeds and feeds should come with the tool insert manufacturer box, and coating colors are more appropriate for different materials (this is more important for mass production, where 5% differences in coatings can mean $$$ by the end of the year. This is not the case so it's worth what it's worth)
2) interrupted cuts are much harder on both the tool and the machine, so I think the tool makers provide different specs in case of frequent interrupted cuts, in order not to exceed the working envelope of the tool itself
I think you should have calculated for the mass removal from all the counterweight lobes evenly before concentrating on the two extreme ones for final balancing. That way, you get the most benefit by removing rotational inertia from the crankshaft.
I like taping the rod balancer to the scale. Good simple idea. I always get annoyed how it moves when I balance a rotating assembly.
awesome work ! less than 1/2 gram each end I'd be doing backflips