This 225 Buick DAUNTLESS V6 Odd Fire Was WORSE Than We Thought...
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- čas přidán 14. 10. 2023
- The Buick 225 Dauntless odd-fire V6 is an interesting one... we went through the process of a stock machining & rebuild for our customer!
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The cleaning guy sure does a lot of work for someone that retired last year. 😂
He does not do this for money that's a man who loves metal
Guys like him never "retire", lol
@@michaelrockwell9691 You are correct, he is the type of guy that if he wasn't able to be in the shop, he would probably have very short time left.
@@misters28371000% "retirement" is a death sentence for certain people. Usually, it's the type of folks that we can't afford to lose.
@@stephenbianchi7141 They are also the ones that can't sit still... See Now *ME* I can retire and not do anything....Of Course ONLY my Wife and Dogs would miss me if I took a dirt nap!
I'm an engine builder in Portland Oregon. All of the videos I watch the builder puts the cam in after the crank and rods are in. When I do a build I always install the cam before the crank, then I'm able to suport the cam from the back while sliding it past the cam bearings to avoid scraching them. It just makes more since rather than try to muscle it from the nose of the cam.
99% of the time we out cam in first. In this case we were waiting on the cam to come in so it got put in later.
Thank you for explaining the whole odd firing thing. Very good illustration. 👍
Came here to say this as well.
Indeed. I did now know of a 90 degree V6 that either had offset crank journals or a countershaft.
Buick later updated their V6 to a split crankshaft in order to create an even firing order. It eventually evolved into the GM 3800 V6.
I believe that they went to the splayed crankshaft in late '77.
Not discussed in this video but I found it interesting the way they did the distributor cap
I don’t know what it is but this channel gives me great satisfaction watching father & son rebuilding engines, good to see the cleaner learning how to use new equipment, thanks boys 👍🇦🇺
I had a Jeep Commando with the 225 engine. It never gave me any trouble, but the clutch was operated by a cable which would break at the most inoppertune moment. The first time it broke i was in downtown traffic in Shreveport LA so as I approached a stop light I would just switch off the ignition as I came to a stop. To go I made sure I was in 1st gear and hit the starter. It would just take off, without lugging, nice and smooth. After this experience I always carried a spare cable.
As a side note when crossing the bridge in Pascagoula MS the wheelbase of the Jeep matched the camber of the bridge so that it resembled a boat on a good sized swell. Closest I ever came to being seasick.
One of my personal favorites, the odd fire with an old Crane Fireball cam at 450rpm. Yes, it will idle there. Sounds like three Harleys with those old weld it yourself Clifford headers.
I worked at a large Chevy dealer in 1977 when they started putting that odd fire engines in the cheap Malibu. One of the customers asked one time how come the ball on the three speed shifter was so big. One of the techs came up and said the reason they make the ball so big is so you can grab onto that sucker when it's idling. They ran surprisingly good but at idle they would shake the teeth out of your comb.
They needed to make it 60° vs 90°. Would have quelled a lot of the NVH.
My odd fire ran really smooth on the stock cam, once I put a the middle ground comp cams camshaft in it would shake a little as it rumbled.
I think a huge part of why mine seems so smooth is Jeep put a super heavy flywheel on them so that probably dampens the vibrations a lot.
@@LivedracersteveI'll second the heavy flywheel probably helped.
How can you warranty the engine if the customer does most of the assembly?
@@joshuaatkins5197 yeah I don’t know if you have ever seen the dyno graph for the Jeep version, but because the flywheel is so big, the torque and HP curve do not cross, it looks a lot like a 383 stroker curve where it just Carries the torque.
They would probably cross if you could rev it out more, but a stock engine stops making power around 4500 due to how poorly the heads flow.
Buick V6 expert here.... I know the engine is longblocked, but there's a couple things on these engines to be aware of.
The main one is because of that flat tappet cam. Way back when, when Buick desigened that engine, they messed up the print on the #3 exhaust tappet bore. It's damned near directly over the center of the cam lobe. (and for some reason, they refused to fix it on later castings) Some cam grinders even choose to grind that lobe taper 'backwards' to try and make sure that tappet can spin.
With Buick V6 blocks it's VERY important to burnish those bores, sometimes twice. I use the Goodson tool and I'm not sure if anybody else even makes one that works well. Since you're running a flat tappet cam, I HIGHLY recommend grooving the lifter bores to force feed a small stream of oil to the opening ramp of the lobes. These blocks love to wipe cams and with modern blanks, and non-hardened lifter feet, (along with modern oil formulations) a flat cam is a recipe for disaster if you're not careful.
This might not apply to this build since I'm a turbo Buick guy and we run split pin cranks, but rod bearings out of a newer 3800 series engine are wider and the same width as the rod. They're a direct bolt in and give larger bearing surface area. With the final HP that Jeep engine is going to make, it probably won't matter.
Also, oiling is very important in these engines as well. Especially with the low RPMs the jeeps will see. The way the oil circuits work in timing cover/pump is the low pressure side of the gears is partially starved until the pump can make enough pressure to crack the bypass valve open. Once it's open, then both corners of the gears have access to oil.
Here's an article I wrote years ago showing some free efficiency and flow mods you can do to the timing cover. The main one got named the ''earlbrown booster hole''. Drilling that will allow the entire gear faces to have full access to oil without the factory designed pressure drop at low RPMs. It also lowers the head height and gets rid of a couple unnecessary 90's.
Since these engines like to make torque very low in the RPM range, you have to be careful not to load the bearings before the pump can get on the clock and start making real pressure.
www.turbobuicks.com/threads/how-to-build-a-front-cover-oil-pump.39169/
Also, as another bonus, making the pump more efficient will lower the amount of load on the front cam bearing. Since that area is the first place the engine gets oil, not wearing that out pays dividends all the way thought the chain of bearings and passages. (and eliminates the need for band-aid HV pumps, and thick oil)
Perhaps withe the crap metallurgy of modern cams, it would pay to have the stocker reground? I know these guys have a connection to a company that regrinds cams.
Did nascar run these in one of the lesser series, Busch or arca?
@@jcnpresser I can’t imagine that. These motors are museum pieces.
You are and expert on the Odd Fire? not, different engine. Some same issues like timing cover wear. I have run a few odd fires 225 in Commandos not the same as your later ones with 20 lbs max oil pressure for years every day to work and wheeling every weekend with half gear oil and half 10-40 in engine. Including winters. Dauntless engines not the later ones you are an exper on (later even fires) were extremely durable. Had many built later even fire ones as well and even lots of customer cars got upgraded high-capacity oil pumps. Had hundreds of reg customers with Buick V6's in later 70,s 80,s as engines were in so many models, chevy, buick, olds. The Dauntless shown here was a much more durable engine.
@@PMaynard-22 It's not a different engine. It's a different crank style (and distributor). The architecture is the same basic design. The later 20 bolt castings are just slightly different at the deck height and the oil pan rail along with the valley casting.
Pretty much all Buick V6's of that era are robust as hell. For what they are, they're very overbuilt. Especially considering the low amounts of actual power they make when assembled. They really don't have any issues with hard parts unless you take the intercooled Grand National engines and DOUBLE the power. And if you get one to fail at that power level, 99% of the time, it's a tune issue that breaks it.
....and the ones I machine and build don't require axle dope in the oil pan to stay together.
I'll trust my pump gas/akly 600+hp street builds as proof over one that has to get band-aided with gear dope.
I love it when "dad's old tool" gets the spotlight.. have a few of those too- always nice to use it and tell him about it later 🥰
Back in the mid 70's I had a 1968 CJ5 with the Buick V6 which I rebuilt put a Mellings cam in it a set of headers and a Holly 500cfm carb on it it was a LITTLE BEAST had tons of FUN playing in the mud and sand with it
I had a 68 cj5 as well. Holley carb, offenhauser manifold and hooker headers. Don’t know what kind of cam. It was fun.
Hardest working cleaning guy I've ever seen. Cleaning guy needs a raise! Seriously, great video - really enjoy watching y'all rebuild stuff. Keep up the great work!
You know I could watch this guy all day, his years of master craftsmanship is amazing. This would be my career if I could go back in time
the more rebuilds I see on Buick engines the more I like them. Very good engineering put into that Marque in those days. This is probably the only Dauntless V6 machine shop video on the internet! cool
My favorite thing about the old buick is that a buick 455 engine block doesn't weigh much more than a 350 Chevy block.
yeah! seems like black magic. And this little V6 is built like a bulldog with the pan rails and compactness
@@skylinefever
I could have kicked myself for not buying that little Buick nailhead V6 I saw one summer
Thank you big Man, these are the type of videos I like. A little longer form and you get to see the job from start to finish, a bit more of the machining/polishing/grinding would be welcome as that crank grinder is one heck of a tool. Thank you Sir.
Good info, thanks. I have a’67 CJ5 with this engine. My son drove it a few times on the property some years ago.
Great video! That cleaning guy has really picked up tremendous knowledge from hanging around the machine shop for a few years. Despite all the detractors and trolls, it's very refreshing to hear your well reasoned explanation of how and why you do things without disparaging other points of view. Also interesting to see the "modern" technology that Nicolaus is bringing into the shop to measure the surfaces, and refreshing to see that accepted by Dad. Great partnership of decades of experience along with modern viewpoint with both clearly respectful of the other's thoughts and knowledge.
The V6 in the Citroen SM had the same firing intervals and in fact the GM distributor can be made to work on them. I've always thought of these engines as 3 90 degree V-Twins side by side by side. That made it easy to understand what was going on.
Im so glad that Josh's Engine Rehab brought me here. We are very fortunate to have these old school wizards around, letting the new school cats film them and upload it. This type of knowledge needs to be documented and preserved. They just don't make em like the used to.
I really enjoyed this! My first car was a 1967 CJ5 with this engine in it. That Jeep had a number of problems, but the engine was not one of them. Always ran perfectly and, as you say, had a distinct sound to it that I loved. Thanks!
The short block looks amazing . Thank you , Parts Cleaner .
This cleaning guy does engines the same way my auto shop instructor did back in the day...watching him work, even using the digital equipment, takes me back. I'm sure that engine is going to be reliable for years to come. I also appreciate the chart explaining how the Oddfire works. Until I had heard about it on the History Channel, I didn't know this engine existed.
Apparently, he "retired" a year ago (based on some comments I've read). He's just too dependable and hard working to stay at home, I guess.
For ring groove clean-up, I've used old piston ring from the same piston you're working on. Just cut and make the tip nice and sharp, cleans up old carbon nicely and is just the right size.
Way too nicely gouge up the land so the ring is tight & doesn't seat/seal against the land.
My dad was a mechanic and had his own business, and I worked for him for a number of years when I was younger. He had that same piston ring groove cleaner that you used in this video. It reminded me when I used to use it when rebuilding an engine with the same pistons.
An up view from the bottom of the cylinders when they're getting bored would be cool. The spindle lowering straight down and little shavings falling, i think, would look cool 11:16
Enjoy this channel so much. Cleaning Guy knows so much
When you mentioned the build-up in the grooves, I immediately flashed on my bosses ring groove cleaner. It was a slightly different design but did the job. There was also a selection dial for ring width and you had to be careful to get it close or less. There was always a chance of actually cutting metal if you chose wrong or set the tension too tight.
To tell you the truth I was always a bit intimidated when I had to use it.
Had a 1970 Jeepster Commando with a Dauntless, originally came with a Pertronix points distributor that wouldn't run for squat, no parts available, the auto part stores could only get the distributor for an even fire, finally had to build an HEI, used a 350 Chevy distributor with a Buick base, was able to order the various random pickup coil, the reluctor ring and the cap, it ran awesome, it is a whole other lever of research and parts tracking, the only info on the HEI parts were in a 1976 Buick Apollo service manual I was finally able to track down at the college auto shop. Great engines, the sound is definitely unique
Dang ! I have not seen a Ring Grove Cleaner in Decades ! I always knew that Engine as a UNBALANCED V6 . But never knew how bad it was .Just knew it was because of the firing order. Thanks for that explanation ! And the Idle was HORRABLE ! That little engine will last for many of years if serviced properly ! Thanks for sharing ! And I learned something today !
As a kid in the 70’s my grandfather had one in his toolbox. Till this video I never knew what it was.
How? The old ring that comes off a piston is the absolute best ring groove cleaner ever produced.
Had one of those V-6's in a 71 jeep comando I bought off a farmer, was probably one of the best trucks I ever owned it was a half cab unit, with a 6ft snow plow, it pulled hay wagons, plowed snow{winter of 78} hauled a large wagon of green cut firewood out of many woods and took me 50 miles a day to work in many nasty days of winter. When it rusted out badly I sold it to a lumber Co. who plowed out their lots with it.
I really appreciate the influence from junior in this video. A great mix of experience and craftmenship with expertise.
I so wish i had a local shop like yall. I run sprint cars and do most my own work, but always just need a few operations done like decking/boring/balancing but local shops always get confused when I bring a torque plate and bring a clearance sheet and whatnot... machinists who know their stuff are worth their weight in gold.
Lol. I watch you videos and when your explaining reassembly as you go , I feel a fire deep down rising I loved working on cars and rebuilding engines. It’s so satisfying. Thank You for that
Another odd-fire engine with an unmistakable exhaust note (actually two notes at the same time, LOL!) is the Dodge Viper V10. So is the old Ram iron block v10, but the dual pitch is much easier to hear on the Viper with side pipes.
I junked a lot of those old odd fire Buick engines. They would skip a bearing,either a rod or sometimes a cam bearing. Most of the time they would get a SBC, but I did put a few even fire engines in when the customer wanted to keep a Buick v6.
I bought a Jeep with the dauntless in it 40 years ago. Always seemed to have a misfire. After a few months of normal tuneup I realized the distributor needed to be in the right location.. ran great after getting that straightened out… I put headers on it and really sounded like a tractor… couldn’t take it and put a single exhaust back on
Excellent video! Thanks
I had completely forgot the odd fire Buick. But then the memories came right back.
I like watching when y’all are working together. When I was younger I worked for my father and later I worked with him (there’s a difference .) later my son worked for me and until I went on LOA I worked with him. Best times of my life.
I hope you both realize what a blessing it is to do so. While I’m on LOA battling the big C. I stumbled on your channel and have been watching all I can. Please more content with y’all working together.
Yes I am a Jeep guy . The odd fire is my favorite engine off roading with that big heavy flywheel ,you cannot stall it when crawling rock.
I remember reading info many centuries ago that rings rotate while an engine runs - so ring gap position is not important, it is going to change. 2 strokes I worked on had pins/pegs to stop ring rotation.
A guide on machining prices these days would be really helpful in deciding whether or not to do engine rebuilds . I did my first one in 1967.
You guys really are thorough and the results are outstanding!
you guys a good. the picture and explanation of the odd fire makes total sense now
You two do a really good job on those engines you build. I learned a few things along the way too.
Yep, Dad is A Great Machinist clean up guy and wonderful Dad and Teacher!!!
The really funny thing is I talked about this engine with a buddy of mine not two hours ago for the first time in years and now it's in my recommendations
Great little engine. Recommend updating the inlet manifold to an aluminium performance 4 barrel manifold if the budget permits.
I was a member of the American Engine Rebuilders Association back in the 80's when I ran an engine shop in Dover, Pa. They used to send out periodic warnings about certain engines that were considered "unrebuildable" and should be given a wide berth. I personally knew of at least half a dozen shops which had to shut because they lost so much money on warranties after trying to rebuild these engines.
Automotive engine rebuilders association
O yeah why don’t you prove it rebuild my engine I tried ,every bolt I could break off I did and I have no idea how
Different engines not the 225 odd fire here.
"This is Cleaning Guy..."
You, sir, are a HOOT!
When I went to trade school for diesel mechanic, I was taught to install the rings just like you. Only thing different is, coated the sleeve with light weight oil. Oil ring will always wipe the sleeves down during install. Coated both main and rod bearings with light weight oil as well, plasti-gauged dry prior to install of bearings, then coated when everything measured correctly. Great video as always, cheers :)
I ran into the odd/even fire issue when I was ditching the smog equipment and adding a four barrel holley on a brand new 231 v6 for my ‘81 Pontiac Grand Prix back in the 80’s. A non electronic vacuum advance distributor for the even fire v6 was a one year only item, which was either a ‘79 or ‘80.
Love the channel, you are extremely through when it comes to rebuilding motors. You can truly learn so much here.
I own a Jeepster with the Dauntless, and didn't understand the odd-fire until your great explanation.
7:36 holy crap!! I didn’t know those existed.
I made a compression ring groove cleaner and it doesn’t look all that different from this.
I use it for my fairly profitable Nissan VQ rebuilding.
Probably 1/3 engines I’ve rebuilt had rings that weren’t stuck, but definitely not completely free, they seem to get that way after 150k-200k miles.
I made my tool surfaces out of aluminum to avoid wearing the pistons and it seems to work fantastically.
I build my harley engines but love watching machine videos
always something to learn great show.
Thanks for the video......its an education to see how everything comes together, and the hurdles that crop up.
Very interesting to see the 1st generation of this engine, as my every day drive ( 97 VT Commodore 3800 Ecotech ) has nearly the final version. Look no adjacent exhaust valves - Buick seemed to be the only GM marque that could design a decent cylinder head.
FYI my 1964 Motors manual lists the ring gap at 0.01" for the Buick 198 & 225, which seems a bit tight for a heavy vehicle, so your 0.018" is probably spot on.
3 thou per inch of bore.
worked on fleet of v6 buicks back in the day. They would run rich because of the foam float would absorb gas. ring wear and cly. wall would wear like that. Check the wear on the bore in the timing cover for the dist. oil pump drive. any wear will cause all sort of problems. We would always just go new and this was a cheap operation
Indeed. I have heard that new timing covers aren't that great, so TA Performance made something better than OEM or most aftermarket units.
I had a Buick 225 V-6 in a 1971 Johnson Sea Sport stern drive.Sweet running engine and,very economical to run.
I've watched a lot of engine builders here on you tube since the late 2ks, and you guys are in my top 5, you guys are great teachers and builders.
my older brother got a new Buick v6 for his wedding present from father in law in the 1959 or 1960 and it ran really ruff, it sounded like it needed a tune up but you folks explained it to me.
Great use of experience, and new technology. Thanks for sharing
Hi Gents, I have had 3 even fire 231 engines. 1982 Cutlass , a 1983 Cutlass and 1983 Grand Prix, these engines ran really well considering they all had 2.41 rear gear and 350 trans W/lock-up. Those cars weighted 3500 lbs. and cruise at 70 mph. no problem!! I remember the odd fire 225 I worked for Buick for a while and they also ran well, but like you said would give people fits in the later yrs. with parts mix ups. I really love this channel!! I like the content alot!! Thanks Cleaning Guy and Supervisor!!😁😁😁😁
Dauntless 225 was a much better and more durable engine than the later even fire models.
Would love to hear this thing start up! Great video guys!
Very cool. I had a 1967 Jeepster Commando around 1986 with this engine. It had straight pipes and sounded...well it sounded like a fart. My neighbor asked me one time to just back out easy in the morning.
I had an old jeep with one of those motors, had over 250,000 miles on it and it still ran like a top. Never knew about the odd fire, so really enjoyed hearing what that was and how it worked.
I stumbled across this channel last week. I really enjoy the content and thorough explanation. I subscribed!
Thank You for the explanation!! I always wondered why it was call an odd fire!! Made my day!
Wow a lot of comments on this video. Have one in a 71 cj5. Thank you for this video. Any learning is helpfull especially on these engines
Make sure the customer is WELL versed in the cam break in process. Don't want them to start it and just let it idle....
Cool video and process !
For some reason the sounds of machining cast iron is just satisfying to me. Nothing else seems to sound like it.
Great explanation of odd firing. Thank you!
Incredible video. Chock full of knowledge thank you for sharing!!
Watching your "cleaning guy" assembling this motor strongly reminded me of my Dad- he didn't use assembly lube, he used STP or "Motor Honey" when he would rebuild a engine. Just a thin coat, mind you on the cylinders, and all the bearings
Had a couple Jeep Commandos with 225 one auto one manual great engine driven daily to work and 4 wheeling every weekend. The manual has 42 pound flywheel and is unstoppable climbing hills it did not bog, just kept screaming as far as traction would allow forward progress.
Used to 4 wheel with a group of about 50 vehicles of every type if mine wouldn't make it few would even try. Total dominance in hill climbs especially in long rough soft sand hills. Potent combo but the clutch cables fail often at the pedal end. The ball squished on end would break off so just carried some nuts and a hammer to slide nut over broken end of cable and squish with a hammer. Back on the road short time later but didn't last as long as threads in nut would cut cable some when crimping it with hammer.
Received my "4 stroke" work mat/mouse pad from epic desk. Your design looks great, color and layout high quality. The soft feel and obvious quality of the pad will hold up well over time.
Lovely Engine I had a 67 Jeepster Commando with the same engine with a Prestolite Distributor .... Fun fact, I needed to replace the starter, I had a unit from a 74 454 ... swapped the nose cone, ran just fine.
Some Jeep guys look in junkyards for the few odd fire V6 engines with an HEI distributor.
Would love to hear that run when it’s done!
Nice video! It's pretty cool that you have done videos on both a Buick 340 and the 225 V6.
I’m super excited to see the Scanner Danner engine machining videos that you’ll be doing with him! SUPER EXCITED!!
Awesome work as usual. Thanks for sharing. Cheers
I think piston rings is like thermal compound on a CPU when building a computer, everyone is the undeniable expert at it and only they can do it right. But with a couple, you just ensure you get even spread that it's all covered. With piston rings, all my engines I've built over my life, about 30 or so, I just ensure they are right side up, oil ring is together properly , and tap is correct. Otherwise I just ensure they are all offset. I read the instructions for any special setups for special 3ngines, but otherwise, I try to ensure aeast a 20° offset, preferably I go for 120° after ensuring gaps prior, then proper up/down and location. And when compressing the rings, they should always just compress right in with no resistance. If for some reason it doesn't compress, stop and investigate!! But it's simple, don't let the keyboqrd warrior experts who have never touched and 3ngine, but know better because they watches a CZcams with all the science and theories and know everything perfect. Lol. You guys are freaking artists!
My first experience with an odd fire was a wrong distributor cap provided by the SM, which I didn't notice or know about the odd fire even events at 90 while odd events went 150. The other experience I had was split journal when it became even fire was in a machine shop like your cleaning guy, wrong cam. The eventual 3.8 was a great engine and the final form with the counter balance in my opinion was one of the best GM ever produced.
Wow! What a nice little engine. Until now I'd only heard of a Dauntless V6 but never actually seen one. Thank you for letting us see it and the work you're doing on it.
Used in some early CJ 5,s and mostly Commandos up to 71. Great little engine had Auto one and manual one,s in 2 different 70 Commandos Manual one had 42lb flywheel and once revs were up and engine Screaming it was unstoppable and would not bog down. Most potent hill climber I have ever seen or driven.
Thanks for another great tutorial
I install a Buick 225 V-6 in 1939 Chevrolet ( It is Volvo Penta aq 150B/200). Great video.
When I put an engine together I like to put the ring end gaps away from the thrust side’s of the piston, I think it stops the ring ends from putting vertical scrape marks up the cylinder wall. I also like to have the top ring end gap facing away from the exhaust side of the engine, I don’t know if it’s right or wrong but it has always worked for me.
Thanks I have one of these engine in my Jeep. I might be getting in touch with you when I do mine.
Another great episode of fantastic content!
I've always loved Buick V6's. Tough little engines that will do everything you ask of them.
Same thing happened with the '84 Ford 300 I rebuilt in 2020. Looked like it would hone, but honing revealed deep scratches (had broken rings, should have known better). 30 over fixed it up!
Thanks! A true learning experiance for me. Excellent explinationof Odd firing.
Excellent video!! Top notch. Very informative!! Thank you.
Love this channel keep it coming guys we appreciate it very much impressive work guys
Great episode!!!
When I tension B.E nuts or bolts I like tension them individually, then do a 360 rotation of the crank to make sure there’s no binding or distortion of the B.E . I had an experience quite a long time ago, when I got an engine back from the machine shop where the B.Es were resized, when I tensioned the B.Es I found that the crank had locked up on just one journal. I don’t know how it happened but one rod end wasn’t sized correctly, as a consequence I like to check as I explained previously.
15:59 Best explanation of an odd-fire engine I have ever seen, it could be a video on it's own. Maybe add to the title: "Odd-Fire Explained". Thanks Guys!!
Ring groove cleaner - what a brilliant tool. I have always used just a broken ring - hurts fingers and takes for ever .
Awesome video, again learned something new! You guys are the best! 👍🏻
Hi just a quick note my “the four strokes” mouse mat arrived today in the UK , looked great as described many thanks Paul
The cleaning guy did all that in 28ish minutes. Man he’s quick!