"Awful" Medieval Swords VS. "Perfect" Modern Swords
Vložit
- čas přidán 27. 04. 2023
- What makes a historical reproduction good? Is it authentic representation or high quality? Both? What if perfection actually contradicts historical accuracy?
Nowadays sword collectors and reviewers have certain expectations and quality standards... flawless finish, tight fit, and machine-like symmetry are usually among them. Those are things that craftsmen in medieval Europe did not necessarily care so much about, as evidenced by originals you can see in museums. They may be uneven, have asymmetrical fullers or central ridges, loose guards, inconsistent distal tapers, etc.
Perhaps (and I'm just speculating here) this is part of why the katana came to be seen as superior to European swords, considering how much emphasis Japanese culture put(s) on diligently going the extra mile?
So in order to be accurate, should modern reproductions be deliberately flawed? Personally I don't think so. Let's discuss the topic of "perfection" in historical weapons.
The video I'm responding to:
"Medieval swords were (usually) awful - A response to Matt Easton" by Tod's Workshop
• Medieval swords were (...
** Music credits **
Outro:
"Highland Storm" by The Slanted Room Records
theslantedroom.github.io/stev...
Used with artist's permission
** Merch **
www.bonfire.com/store/skallswag/
If you want to join Bonfire to start selling your own merch: www.bonfire.com/welcome/07bb1...
** Support the channel **
Help fund future videos, get bonus content and access to an exclusive Discord server:
/ skallagrim
/ @skallagrim
Other ways to support the channel by shopping through affiliate links:
Kult of Athena, my favorite online store for reproductions of historical arms and armor, fantasy swords, etc:
www.kultofathena.com/?koa=259
Where to get HEMA gear and practice swords:
www.woodenswords.com/?Click=1799
Want to treat your face fluff? I highly recommend the balms and oils from Beard Sorcery:
beardsorcery.com/?ref=0UEFtHW...
Books about history, martial arts, swords, knives, video/audio equipment, and other stuff I recommend:
US - www.amazon.com/shop/skallagri...
Canada - amzn.to/2HeOCMA
** Social media **
/ _skallagrim_
/ skallagrimyt
/ skallagrim_yt
#skallagrim #swords #history - Zábava
One thing that has to be mentioned is that there were multiple sword confiscations in feudal Japan, and eventually, the only people who could own swords were samurai (high class) - this sort of thing never happened in medieval Europe. You have no idea of whether the sword you found in a river somewhere belonged to a knight (very unlikely) or was just kind of a munitions grade footman's sword (much more probable) I think that has a great deal of influence on the perceived quality of historical medieval artifacts.
Yeah, and there’s always going to be variance in quality vs. price depending on the person. You even see that with modern handguns. I could spend $150 on a Hi-Point if I’m really poor, $600 on a mainstream Glock, $1000 for a nicer gun like a Beretta or Five-seveN, all the way up to $3000 for a custom, hand fit, really nice 1911. And a lot of modern sword reproductions would’ve been Staccato or Wilson Combat quality by medieval standards, so we’d probably start turning our noses up at the rank and file stuff.
There is also the problem with the generations before the 1850s. They mostly kept swords in good or perfect condition for their collections, the other stuff, who knows how many rusted out sword from 300bc were found and discarded as "just a rusty piece of metal". This also definately contributes to what we see in museums. I bet 99.9% of all swords made in earlier times were not masterpieces but sharpened blocks of metal with a wood handle on it, the pesants who had to fight in the army had to be able to buy one for themselves after all.
EDIT: Not that they were not functional, they were just the bare minimum.
Yeah and peasants wouldn't necessarily care how their swords looked
@@dreadfulbadger Yup. Even modern gun owners often have a “nice” gun that they spend a lot of money for and care for a great deal, but then also have “beater” guns that are all worn out, scratched up, and not too expensive for heavy use, then discard when it’s done. Quality varies in everything.
I think people get the wrong Impression about quality with our modern perfectly stamped world. Most people walk through the museum and see the beautifully crafted swords from a distance and want perfection. But closer up, most if not all of these masterpieces are not perfect, but you can't see it 2meters away through reflections on the glass cover.
My grandparents said "flaws show character". I have seen reviews criticizing the ripples of the hammer marks on some blades. Me personally, I like how they look, as long as the sword is straight and does not disintegrate in my hands when cutting, I am happy.
Tod also pointed out that some blacksmiths would be encuraged to just pump out as many swords as they could, which meant they would only make a sword as good as it needed to be, since making it better than that would take more time, which meant producing fewer swords, which meant earning less money.
Isn't it the same today? Not every car is RollsRoyce. Yet I think that there were masters as Negroli who put enormous amount of time and effort in each piece and still made some profit.
"MIL-SPEC"
@@marismikitis Yeah, it depends on who your customers are.
@@marismikitis Today we're seeing more snd more automation, robots replacing welders and other assemblers. Almost no car makers do hand coach work any more as opposed to all of them doing it in the early days.
That means there is and will continue to be less difference in "quality" among car brands. Any more, "quality" is ~= how many features you're willing to pay the subscription cost to turn on.
When your Lord is going on campaign, he's not going to care that every weapon is unblemished and fully polished, he's going to care that he has enough weapons when he needs to leave so that he can achieve his goals AND have everyone back by harvest time.
Likewise, if an enemy army is approaching, who gives a f*** whether the sword looks pristine, you need that sword and you need it now - a sword finished when the town is razed is of little use...
Hi Skall, This is a cracking and well considered film. Just a well judged discussion around a very interesting subject without pressing opinions. The reason I think you handled it so well is that there is no right answer; so ultimately you're, mine or anyone else's opinion is just as valid as each others. Basically they didn't seem to value cosmetic finish as highly as we do but of course functionality had to be primary and they seemed to be able to differentiate. We tend to see poor decoration and finish as indicative of poor product quality and of course in our modern world it often is so we struggle to separate the two. We all want quality, but exactly how that is manifested is ultimately down to our opinions and taste. Thanks for joining in. Tod
On Todd's channel I noted that some people make a distinction between a "reproduction" and a "replica". A "reproduction" makes a new item, styled like the original but with modern methods and quality (a reboot in movie parlance). A "replica" attempts to produce as exact a copy of the original as possible, sometimes extrapolating the wear & decay the original has undergone. Sometimes a replica attempts to replicate what the original would have been like when first made, other times it attempts to replicate its current state.
Many of the dinosaur bones in museums are mounted replicas: casts are taken of the original fossils and the resulting plaster is colored to match and then mounted for display without risking the original. Sometimes they're even educated guesses (and thus reproductions): missing bones are replaced with fabricated copies from another fossil, or even extrapolated based on similar bones in similar species.
Art restoration sometimes involves replacing part of a work with a replica.
Forgeries are replicas, though of course not all replicas are forgeries.
Swords are the same. Much of the time people want reproductions, particularly re-enactors don't want a heavily rusted blade that looks like it was buried underground for 500 years. E.g. The Metropolitan museum of art has a Japanese helmet made of both iron and gilt copper (collection number 23026). It's really cool (that mix is rare) but heavily damaged. It'd be really weird to make a re-enactment suit of armor in that state of decay, but for a zombie movie set in Japan where dead warriors rise in their original (decayed) armor you'd want the replica props to look like that!
👆👆👆
If I remember correctly we lost a method of producing a certain type of Damascus steel and the going theory is they used coal tar in some way
@@zambekiller Wootz steel. It got recreated, it was a particular ore with high levels of vanadium IIRC.
@@PeregrineBF oh cool
Something i said on Matt's(Scholagladiatoria) channel. Trying to make something symmetrical with hand tools( files, stones etc.) is really tough.
Tough but not impossible. Only question is - is it worth it. If you have high paying customer with specific demands then you can invest half a year on one blade. So as Skall said - there are "perfect" examples, yet they are as rare as RollsRoyce today.
I was reminded of a part in one of the Lord of the rings movies. It's right before the battle of helms deep. Anyway aragorn sees a kid, asks him his name, then asks to see his sword. After swinging it, and looking to see if it was straight, he hands it back and says "this is a good sword". Now heres the main point: the sword doesn't actually look that good, asthetically. So why did aragorn say it was good? Because it had a good feel in the swing and the blade was straight. Awesome example of different priorities for different users. Today we would want something that looks beautiful, but back in the day, if it was good for killin' it was good enough. 👍
"swords don't look that good" the hell are you talking about? swords historically were often used as status symbols and could be highly decorated. that's ignoring that even a sword with fairly minimal decorations can be aesthetically pleasing.
I disagree.
The sword was clearly a barely usable munitions grade blade.
But the kid was scared so Aragorn lied to the kid to give him courage.
A legendary Ranger said your sword was crap and will break on you when you need it most? You're cursed.
But if a Legendary Ranger praising your sword and said it would carry you through the night? Rock on.
This scene out of context... (⌐■-■)
@@DH-xw6jp That's also how I interpreted that scene.
To your point on Japanese swords, I think a big contributor to the mythos is that Japanese swords were MAINTAINED better. In the west, steel was pretty easy to come by and most swords were utilitarian tools (not the lamborghini museum models like the maximilian swords).For every 1 of those museum swords there was probably an army's worth of crude weapons rusting out in a bog somewhere. But in japan, to get any quantity of iron they had to get it from China which made good steel ridiculously hard to get. Compounded with the fact that their foundry technology was lagging behind the west due to a lack of available natural coal deposits. In the Kamakura period a good kitchen knife in Japan could cost a month's worth of food for an entire peasant family! And the entire family might have only 1 knife! So everything from kitchen knives, woodworking tools, and swords were maintained to a super high degree. And YES, the Japanese do have a cultural aspect that they will do common things in a way that that is hyper focused and mindful as a form of meditation. That includes everything from pouring tea to cleaning the floor and maintaining their tools.
Steel was never that easy to come by everywhere before the advent of large scale blast furnaces in the 18th and 19th century.
Iron sources in the form of iron sand, iron ore and imported ingots were steadily inflowing in Japan throughout its history, and the prices were not that different from medieval China and England (for reference, Iron Prices in Ancient Japan and the International Comparison by Hiroshi Arai). From the Kamakura to the Sengoku period the ratio of Fe/Rice went down from 6 to 2.5 and is very much in line with international prices according to the study. In fact, mass produced swords and guns were made in the 16th century. The idea that Japan had low access to iron sources is based on applying the same standard and demand proportion of post industrial world to the medieval world, which makes little sense as they did not had to built steel warships back then.
By the kamakura period, steel was produced by indirect method technology by refining cast iron and by the muromachi period also bloomery steel was used, in line with the quality of that found in Western and Chinese examples. Also coal? It was used in the west waaaay later, in the 18th century iirc. This does not apply to the medieval context.
The reason why such blades were maintained and preserved like that is because ever since old times a form of appraisal similar to calligraphy developed alongside swordmaking due to Japanese polishing methods, and because smiths were also religious priests in many ways, therefore their works were kept with higher esteem in comparison to the west. There were of course Japanese crappy blades that were mass produced as well, but there was also an emperor who made swords so yeah, two completely different vision of the world in my opinion
Japan did have coal deposits (but no one made steel with coal until the 1700’s and British invention of the coking process).
Japan doesn’t have any good iron ore deposits.
@@allangibson8494 The issue is not that relevant. Iron sand was not the only type of "ore" available, they also had solid ore known as mochi tetsu, and imported one.
While satetsu or iron sand contain very little iron, 0.5% to 2% (hence the low quality association) it also contains very little harmful impurities in the form of P and S, which makes it rather a good a starting material compared to bog iron for instance, that is quite high on P.
By gravity concentration, a.k.a. gold panning, you can raise that small percentage to 50-80%. They did such procedure on a massive scale to the point they had to stop in modern times since it created environmental hazard such as floods.
So while satetsu is not that great as starting material, with enough work you can have perfectly suitable quality. Not that mining rock iron is much easier in medieval times, btw.
"But in japan, to get any quantity of iron they had to get it from China"
Correction, to get GOOD quality iron. Japan does have native iron deposits. Problem is the iron from them makes for horribly shitty quality metal.
This is the big reason why high quality swordsmancrafting became such a mythological thing. Because lots of smiths experimented to come up with ways to get better quality. And occasionally, someone came up with a superb way to treat the metal to get REALLY good quality metal out of it. But because such processes were so extremely valuable, they were always kept secret, in the family, but such secrets might last a few generations, but always died out relatively quickly.
So, again and again, you have the great master swordsmiths, who figured out a good method, and because they could sell their swords REALLY expensively already, they went the extra mile and did everything about them the best they could, ending up with making perhaps a tiny handful of swords per YEAR, but their quality being so great that literally everyone wanted them, because they could literally cut through common swords made from normal quality metal and with rapid production low quality.
@@DIREWOLFx75
Sometime I feel like Don Quixote against the windmills.
"Japan had shitty iron deposit" - see my comment before plus Mineralogical Study of Iron Sand with Different Metallurgical Characteristic to Smelting with Use of Japanese Classic Iron-making Furnace “Tatara” by Hiroshi Tani et al.
"Such secrets were kept in the family and died out" - there were schools and lineages, some of them preserved until today, and mass produced swords were a thing as well. The "secrets" were not that secrets.
"Cutting into regular swords" - no sword can cut into another sword unless is made of iron and less than 1 mm thin, which is not really a sword
It makes me think of the scene in Fellowship of the Ring that shows orcish or Uruk-Hai smiths making swords and helmets and just tossing them in a pile for the next random soldier to grab one from - they're having to churn out enough for an army, so they're not going to make sure each one of them is perfectly balanced and polished.
Yes! I agree with so much of this. Great video, Skall. Modern people have very different ideas about what makes something "good" or sufficient. Great points about modern minimalism vs craftsmanship of the past, for example vaulted cathedral ceilings that the craftsman wouldn't even live to see the final result/beauty in it's finished form.
I definitely agree for the *most* part, but sometimes ornate decorations can look a bit *tacky* ; that's why I think minimalism can *sometimes* be good, and I prefer to go between them as I think would be more appealing for different situations.
@@ezrafaulk3076 skill issue, go big or turn inhuman, there is no inbetween. Gotic, Baroque, Sezessionstil, Rococo were goated.
Somewhat minor point because I know we're not *just* talking about cruciform swords, but I do think it's worth mentioning that imperfections in those are only going to be amplified by the very nature of their design. If you have a sword design that has more inherent design asymmetries (we can even bring up Japanese swords there for example; but it's way more pronounced in later complex guarded sabres), many imperfections become more subtle. If I think about it, cruciform swords are probably some of the more generally artificially straight man-made designs I can actually think of from pre-modern eras; so it actually wouldn't be surprising if they aged particularly poorly by the standards of our modern eyes
Most of my antiques are a lot later than the medieval era, but still. Imperfections are quite standard in them, and ive never considered the assymetries or less than straight lines to detract from them
Modern repros have a different set of standards, and i suspect its mostly caused by the difference in the customers.
Like you, i wouldnt test cut with an antique. But getting a craftsman to willingly make an "imperfect" copy of an an "imperfect" antique - especially for review- is not easy
I think it can be relatively simple to make an imperfect copy. As long as it's fully hand crafted - the blade is made by a blacksmith in a forge, then the imperfections will be there no matter what.
Of course the process of making is far from being simple.
there is a german guy that does restauration on old swords and blades who also knows how to polish the material to make the microstructure and grain structure visible. He says that the old steel of the swords was not crucable steel and not even hardened like we do it nowadays but still the marks and traces on the (one) blade he is referring on is showing that it has surely been in combat use but did not break or fail and that there is a lot we still not understand how they treated this ancient Iron and kind of steel material. As i understand it, it would not be possible to exactly reproduce such an ancient sword (apart from the geometry) because the material structure could not be reproduced and so the whole blade would handle different.
maybe you know him, he has also a yt cannel but is in german language.
His name is Volker Hollmann. Very interesting topic!
The video is interesting and sheds a good light on the bloomery process. I also like how he's working out the similarities to japanese swords.
Sadly however, this guy is excessively self-promoting (and trying to sell a book). The claim that his method is the non plus ultra and that scientific methods are useless is
simply dumb. While spectral analysis has less meaning for japanese swords due to the islands isolationistic nature, it is vital to understand european swords. The materials used could basically come from the swamp next door (bog iron) or have traveled continents and thus have vastly different properties.
@@stephanpetri262 I've bought the book and actually am reading it at the moment.
I hqve to say that the book is outstandingly interesting. I har no idea what polishing can reveal of the inner structure of steel and the craftmanehip of the blacksmith.
I recommend everyone to get his book. In his video he is just scratching the surface of his knowledge.
6:12 i'm a huge fan of Art Deco and most of the things created nowadays look horrible when compared to that; even outside there are those bland, béton brut-like bunkers everywhere which cost a fortune and have been "designed" by some architect
Its preference but I do prefer the classic swedish wooden house, red with white accents over a modern cube house. As for inmer city; the city I live in has been nominated to be the one of the ugliest in the country, much because its so inconsistent. Every building is built by a different architect, with different vision and ideas. The result is vastly different looking buildings are put next to eachother. Its like if a painter uses all kinds of mediums and designs to make one painting. It doesnt work at all.
I really like your content man, everytime I see a popup from your channel the day gets a little better.
I really love the laid-back going on a walk and talking style of these kinds of videos!
These casual discussions into interesting topics like these are the best. Keep it up Skall!
As "Study Time" mentioned, Roman Concrete structures were better then most modern crumbling buildings. I'll add that many Bronze Age Weapons also achived higher quality levels than modern bronze forging. The Chinese Qin Emperor's Tomb had elite bronze swords, untarnished and razor sharp, 2000 years later. Some chemical treatments on Qin blades is still un-reproducable. And Europe continued using some well-forged bronze weapons/helmets into the Classical Iron Age.
I know this is cringe reference, but there's a little joke in a Rick and Morty episode where Morty experiences "perfectly level" ground, and I don't think he thinks much of it in the moment, but the moment he steps back onto the floor of the garage he freaks the fuck out and wants nothing more than to step back onto the perfectly level ground. In my own somewhat recent direct experience, when I upgraded to a 1440p monitor, it was nice, but it didn't blow my mind compared to the 1080p monitor I'd been using before - but as soon as I tried to use a 1080p afterwards...my god it looked like shit.
There are some standards where, once we've experienced it, anything less feels just awful. I think our minds are just wired in a bit of a strange way where we can be underwhelmed by an improvement, immediately take it for granted, and then be appalled by going back to what we previously lived quite happily with. The moral of the story is, don't make your tastes needlessly more expensive lol.
Absolutely! I remember as a teenager my 2nd gen iPod was my CZcams device; we're talking about a 9cm (3.5 in) 480p screen and i was perfectly happy with it 🤣 looking back now its like "damn how did we live like this!?" lol
You are such a treasure. Thank you for all the level headed perspective and in-depth information.
Medieval history and its weapons has been a passion of mine ever since I discovered D&D. Like you, I was drawn more by the coolness factor of a weapon at first. But, later, I became more focused on the functionality of a weapon. Hence, why I own an Arkansas toothpick and gave the wall decoration weapons away to friends.
If I may suggest two topics,
1. Can you go into the techniques craftsmen used to achieve the astonishing level of intricate decoration seen on many of these weapons you exam?
2. What is your opinion on these tri-edged spiraling daggers you see nowadays? Are they functional at all or more suited for wall art?
Great video! I like this format the best 😊
It's definitely a very interesting topic and there's a lot of contacts to it and being handmade using historical techniques has its charm to it and I would like to hopefully add a example to my small collection. And I had conversations with people going over handmade versus mass production blades and I noticed there is two sides of thinking where people think one is better than the other but it all depends on the main thing of quality control just because it's handmade doesn't mean it's good especially when you have someone who doesn't know what they're doing and just because it's mass produced doesn't mean it is garbage there is more that goes into it when it comes to this conversation
I am german, and Brittas boyfriend. The job / Beruf i am trained is , Maschinenschlosser' , literaly machine fitter, a ,Metallberuf'/ Metal Job. During my jobtraining / Lehre, 40 years ago, the last blacksmith of my company retired. For two weeks the blacksmith showed me some very basic first steps. I produced a number of nails, hooks etc.. During the now 41 years of Joblife, i nearly never needed blacksmith knowledge, also only in jobtraining i needed the chissel to make holes or Nuten ( don' t know english word) . So as a metal worker being between modern Industry worker and Craftsman i can say: When i visit a Museum i am very impressed of the knowledge and skill my , coworkers of old days' had.
Must suck being a vampire. Nice sunny day at the beach but you have to fully cover up because the sun literally burns you.
It has its perks.
Great video Skal, really enjoyed that format
Very interesting comments too!
What a beautiful backdrop for your video!
Discipline is one way to describe Japanese pursuit of perfection.
Obsessive compulsive is another.
And one does have to wonder if the legendary status of Japanese sword finishes has always been there or if it was just a product of periods when swords became less and less about actually going into battle with and more about being a special status sidearm/object of aesthetic enjoyment
there's a fine line
Wonderful video format 💪
5:20 counterpoint - we just recently rediscovered "self-healing" Roman concrete
Thats what is he talking about. Maybe we didnt knew, how ancient Romans achived that, but today we have our modern methods, how to do so and better and even ordinary concrete have self-repairing ability to a certain extent and is much stronger so its not even that necessary.
Reintroduced more likely. (((THEY))) are hiding tons of things from us.
We have known about Roman concrete for ages. We know that it's better than what we use but we also know that it's impractical to make it as it relies on volcano ash as an ingredient to manufacture it.
So instead we make do with our modern, readily available, concrete.
@@tarille1043 No, more recently there was a discovery. Romans didn't crush the lime to a fine powder, so there were chunks of lime in the concrete, which, in contact with water, helped heal over cracks about 3-4 times wider than what Portland cement is capable of healing. This is what helped the concrete withstand weathering more so than the ash.
The technique was used experimentally in a modern building project.
I love the scenery dude. Also I like your observations.
Great talk there Skal. This has made me a tad curious about the actual utility of swords, like how often could they be used before you needed the blade/edge reworked or even reforged? And are there historical examples that were actually used and therefore had odd looking edges etc where they were repaired or whatever?
If you've already done a vid on that, well I guess I'll go look.
Maybe the flaws were actually *part* of the reason so many historical cultures believed swords (and *other* weapons for that matter) had a *soul* ; because they, like humans, were *flawed* , and so were like humans in that regard. That *too* , is just speculation though.
PS: Sometimes ornate decoration can look a bit *tacky* ; that's why I prefer to alternate between ornate and minimalist as I think would look better for each situation.
Seems to me that the Japanese actually have a term for a flaw that is deliberately introduced to a work of art or a tool of some kind. The word is "sabe", if memory serves, not to be confused with "sake", the consumption of which can lead to verbal flaws.
I also always assumed that the mythos about japanese swords being better would come from the fact that having to work with what they had, a proper functioning cutting tool had to have a degree of mastery in the making, while in europe a lot more people could just hammer and sharpen a random piece of steel and there you go, you have a somewhat functioning knife.
well balanced video, lovely scenery, great way to deliver a video
Something I like about genuine artifacts, both weapons and tools, is when we can see the wear and tear of how it has been used. Things like a sword pommel showing that the owner has leaned their hand on it for years, or when a tool has been customized with extra decorations to give it a more personal touch. I would not expect that from a replica, but I would enjoy the process of adding such details myself to a new blank piece.
Your videos have been helpful in my book research.
How much use does it take for a good quality modern replica/reproduction sword to have gaps in the fittings deflection in the blade and any other problems that may occur during proper use and day to day wear and tear
What are your thoughts on "generative design" and "topology optimization" that ai tools have been using on modern manufacturing?
If they help make better and cheaper products I don't see any reason to disprove of them.
the issue with swords is about material and not much about design honestly, 5160 would be almost the best material for modern swords, exotic steels are just too delicate for swords and weapons
@@royalecrafts6252 I agree, material science is by far the most impactful difference in this matter. Better steels matter.
@@Fantastic_Mr_Fox I would forever (at least for now lol) stay with a 5160 (preferably scania truck suspension ones) for most swords and high impact weapons, and 1090 for more smooth cuts weapon, kind of like drag cuts and not chops, both in oil quenching, water just makes it too tough
@@royalecrafts6252 I don't know the properties of either of these steels or what the difference is between oil and water quenching, so I'm perhaps not the best person to discuss this with, in all fairness.
Skall, I just watched Joerg Sprave testing a wooden prototype of his “snake” knife design and I’d like to see you review the design and eventually test a metal version
I wonder how often things like different quillon lengths were intentional, due to how the sword was going to be held/used (eventually evolving into a clearly new form of handguard (e.g. basket-hilts or knuckle guards).
I think it's really cool to see this kind of video and really hope a lot of people inherit the messages you spread there.
Nowdays you hear tons of people online claiming that "traditional japanese swords were all flawed due to the low quality of traditional japanese steel"
while at the same time viewing reproduction made from high grade tool-steel as a realistic representation of common european longswords.
i have question
Would a Really good knight in full armor (plate,chain,gambeson) with spear and buckler, and longsword&Dagger (for backup) beat 3 knights in Rivited Chainmail Armor (They got Helmet and paddings) That Armed With Longsword and Dagger at once?
1v3 situation
Hey skallagrim killer channel btw been checking this out for a while! I have I video idea .. First of all I'm just trying to imagine how confusing it would be to be in the front lines with swords and shields and spears ect with adrenaline back then and trying to figure out who the truck is the enemy's or the allies! Man I hope you catch this comment I think it would be a killer video man!!
I wonder if the pursuit of perfect blade symmetry using medieval methods might weaken a blade in certain ways by filing things down, reheating/hammering things, and generally messing with something perfectly functional.
I do wonder what people from these eras would think of a well-made modern sword with machined perfection and high-quality steel. Probably something like, "Great blade, but why isn't there precious metals, jewels, and engraving for a weapon apparently made for nobility or royalty?" That is assuming they have an eye for swords or at least smithing.
If someone threw the entirety of historical accuracy out the window, I wonder what the best sword (and/or other melee weapons) that we could make with modern materials and manufacturing processes. Of course, weapon design is heavily dependent on the context of your enemy's equipment, your equipment, common strategies, logistics, and terrain. Modern warfare makes using a melee weapon for your primary armament obsolete. A perfect weapon for field infantry might be a liability on a horse or a ship.
I also wonder if earlier weaponsmiths would have a major leg-up when it comes to knowing what traits are important because they can draw from the experiences of people who regularly trusted their lives to their weapons. I doubt that most modern blacksmiths get many chances to ask people who observed and/or participated in a fight between well-trained and experienced combatants actively trying to kill each other.
Noice. Glad to see you're covering this topic.
I can’t complain too much about non symmetrical blades. If you told me to make a blade, you’ll get at best a metal club with a narrow side or something that can be mistakened as an early bronze sword (The one’s where it’s broad but gets very very thin at the point)
It's a little different with replicas of existing objects. If Tod created a "Lancelot Sword" based on his own imagination, the focus would be on different elements of his craft. You take something that already exists and you really narrow the elements that can be judged.
What weapons and armour would the Hart foundation have used?
10:32 wow, the ocean is a wonder. The "coastline" of the water reaching shore is never the same throughout the different "pushes". It also looks like the moon is kneading the dough of the ocean.
I just finished watching Tod Cutler's video on this, perfect timing!
Could you possibly try out real world batarangs and see if they can actually work or not?
Another thing worth mentioning, I'll use Skyrim as an example because it does touch on the topic loosely. Because the clan running the Skyforge are aligned with the Stormcloaks, the Imperials approach Adriana in Whiterun to provide an order of swords for his men. With just her and Ulfbert working on the order, how much are machine straight lines going to matter when they are trying to make a deadline and the swords are functional?
Im really appreciating these breakdowns of the differenece between modern appreciation and medieval appreciation. These things are interesting to me
As a maker, I find the whole discussion very interesting. I was happy to see Tod and Matt Easton talking about this because the videos I've seen of originals always showed gaps between the guard and the ricasso. Unfortunately, I have not had the privilege of handling originals. Most of my clients have not wanted something that looks like it came out of a factory or was made on milling machines. But as an artist/craftsman, I have to find a balance between something that is totally precise and something that shows the signs of being handmade. Handmade doesn't mean cutting corners or being sloppy. But unless I spend lots of money on milling machines, I will never achieve completely clean lines or maybe the tightest possible fit-up. Then I'm asking myself at what point do I stop calling it handmade? I think the answer to that question will be different for every artist/craftsman.
I know it's a long shot, but I'm in Halifax for a week. Long time fan, would really like to see your collection of weapons. I'm sure you get requests like this all the time though. If you're up for it, let me know. Been thinking about joining my local historical martial arts group.
Skallagrim in terms of Japanese perfectionism with their swords take a look at their rifles from WW2. How they went from perfect Arisakas with graduated sights with frickin' anti-air wings to their more desperate last ditch rifles. Even fighting a World War they put a ton of effort into their rifles and continued manufacturing katanas for officers when in fact they couldve been cranking out more simplified weapons from the start and saved on time and materials. Just something I find interesting and shows their cultural values.
The Japanese WW2 katana’s were punched out of steel sheets by the thousands, just like cheap bayonets (the Japanese fitted bayonets to machine guns). More aesthetic Japanese officers would take the hilt off the issue blade and fit it to their family katana to actually get a combat functional sword - which is why it is worth taking the hilt off and actually checking the manufacturers markings on the tang - cheap and nasty government issued hilts were fitted to five century old swords in WW2.
What do you think about the "forged in fire" series on Discovery channel?
8:44-8:51 What's the sword at the bottom?
Crystal Crescent is looking good. I enjoyed your talk.
Got a superb built B-stard sword, modern materials(1075) and good performance. But I also have a 150 buck DaDao made from tool steel(T10), and honestly the DaDao feels so much better to me in both practice/use and sturdiness(its pretty dang thick). Im tall and have used Axes for most of my life in work(and play when I was younger) and the Chinese design feels so second nature to me. The length and balance of it compared to my build and height makes it easy to handle fast, distance is great and Ive even used it for utility(more abuse than any blade Ive ever owned)! Sometimes you just have to try out different countries designs to find your best fit, and now I see why this was used, its like a spear and sword balance. Turns out my favorite blade in art, movies and games was not my fit. Now this design is my favorite, really has grown on me over the years. Also the guard is welded good to the Dao lol no worries about it coming off.
thats why i like fabi armorum, the custom parts are shown so close up on the site you can see these are handmade, and need to fit into one swort at the end.
Dig the volg video nice background!
Do we know how they did Damascus ?
I know you've already made videos about fighting zombies, but I watched "return of the living dead" where the individual parts of a zombie can attack on their own without a brain. So I was curious what the best weapon would be for something like that. Cutting them up just creates more problems, so I imagine you would want to break the bones to immobilize them. What's the best weapon for bone breaking?
Mace, Club or Polehammer
Ask Sauron
Fire. As usual, arson is indeed the answer.
Skal would appreciate if you checked out Inosuke's weapons from demon slayer at some point if you have time please :)
some very interesting points to be made about the soul of an object. I actually wrote a critical theory essay for a college class, regarding the reasons that there seem to be more and more youtube channels, classes, and people getting into blacksmithing, knife making, and that sort of thing. The long and short of it is that mass manufacturing is convenient, but the average person (not a craftsman) loses any sense of the materials, process, time, effort, everything that goes into the making of an object. Meanwhile, though a hand crafted product may be imperfect, whoever comes to own it can know its story, its materials, and maybe even its soul, for lack of a better term
I think one modern misconception of having everything being the same and symmetrical is that people may have this idea that a perfectly heat treated blade has to have the same hardness and temper from the area of the ricasso all the way to the point when in actuality it may be more advantageous to have a tougher, slightly less hard blade closer to the guard from a functional and durability point of view for many medieval sword types. Same when we are talking about the edges compared to a tougher center.
I still want you to review my "Breaker Katana". It's still just a design. But I got good artwork for it.
I suppose the most well known example of the *we don't know how they did it* school would be the ulfbert sword
Great vid Skall. Totally agree with ya
As a maker myself and owner of original swords I can greatly appreciate the work the smiths put into their products given what tools they had at the time.
It would be fun to take detailed 3D scans of original antiques and exactly reproduce them by CNC, flaws and all. Then one could offer two variants of the same piece, one as an exact reproduction and one with perfect symmetry, and see how they sell in comparison to each other.
Todd Cutler did - the exact replica wouldn’t sell (not high enough “quality” for the modern market).
🤔well the thing is for the most part everything had to be done hot in the past meaning you get one chance to punch the guard with the piece of metal you had. plus its likely you had munitions grade stuff that was pumped out during times of war and Dress grade fancy stuff men would wear to impress there wealth. tech-wise, tempering would really be the hard part to do as you dont have temperature control other than the color of the material. and long holding times for tempering would be tricky as you temper 2 hours 2 times at say 400F(thats just what i tempered my last knife at) for the best results in the final heat treatment of a blade. and blades can have different meterals do to patter welding.
I also think you have the difference between a master smith making a one off sword for royalty versus journeymen and apprentices making swords or blades for a whole army and the common hoplite or foot soldier.
One idea I had was that given the metallurgy problems, people might have thought of swords as single use objects. Most people aren't in many duels or battles. If a perfectly symmetrical sword you spent days polishing is going to have a bent cross guard and a huge chunk missing from the blade at the end of a fight, the effort was wasted.
swords were definitely not single use items. even striping away any cultural significance they had, which we shouldn't, they were working tools and just like any other working tool, while it was accepted that they ultimately would wear out, they were expected to do their job reasonably reliably.
As the great Roland Warzecha has pointed out, many "Viking Age" swords seem to be intentionally asymmetrical. A slighty tilted pommel makes the sword better suited to a right-handed or left-handed grip. A 2-edged sword actually having a true-edge and a false-edge. Rather than being uneven due to shoddy "Viking" workmanship, these beautiful swords appealed to the asthetics of symmetry, yet were made slightly asymmetrical to favor an individual owner's hand and tendencies.
I would disagree that medieval people didn't strive for precision. It makes sense to me that they did. Now that doesn't mean they beat themselves up about it if they couldn't achieve it, and it doesn't mean they always tried their hardest either, but they probably did like their symmetry. It's just that nowadays we have the ability to achieve symmetry and tolerances unheard of in the medieval era, and for a fraction of the cost.
Todd also pointed out in some of his videos just how much more expensive it would have been to strive for symmetry. Lot of craftsmen were working at they got set amount of money from finished item so it was to them more important to just make "good enough", and not spend too much time. Although yeah they likely would have been bothered by if everything is horribly wonky, but also not much if somethings little bit off. They used some absolutely awful sword blades that they then decorated insanely, and gave to kings i think they could have found better blade quite easily, but they didnt seem to be bothered by it even in that context.
@@lalli8152 You're right, I perhaps expressed myself a little unprecisely, I meant that they would probably *like* to make things perfectly symmetrical if they could, but they usually couldn't and wouldn't bother too hard because that wasn't as much of a standard of beauty back then.
Another thing is that the ‘precision’ and ‘attention to details” is not only relevant to the making of the blade, but also the decoration. The latter is arguably more important for ceremonial weapons and it makes sense that the craftsmen put the majority of their attention on it. If the medieval people just didn’t care about putting great effort in making things in general then the decoration of those fancy weapons would also be crude and imprecise, this doesn’t seem to be the case.
Some blacksmiths though would be encuraged to just produce as many items as they could in as short amount of time as they could, which meant they would aim for what is "good enough", as going for better than that would take extra time, which meant they would earn less money.
I think you have to separate "Museum display" weapons from the everyday weapon. A lot of what we have as reference today is the utmost high quality museum display pieces from ultra wealthy collections. But the VAST majority of weapons would be utility items knocked out by apprentice craftsmen just learning the skill. Think of the first few pieces of anything you made in shop class (does that still exist?) and then apply that to like 75% of all medieval peasant weapons. With maybe another 24% being made by actual master craftsmen and 1% being the super fancy museum display models that are still around today. Even trying for perfection, an inexperienced blacksmith is going to build some wonky ass blades.
The shift in producing just about everything was that goods in the past were made mostly by hand with few or no machines and now things are made mostly by machine with few or no hands.
I dont think that medival people could not see symmetry as we do. The human brain is trained to see and also like symmetry. For example a symmetrical face shows health, hence it is perceived as more attractive by most people.
Also looking at building like churches...they are very close to perfect symmetry. For example the Dome of Cologne only wanders 37cm over its entire length of 120m...that is astonishing considering the technology of the time.
Also when looking at medival swords (as Skall already mentioned) one can see numerous high end pieces where they obviously spend extra care in making everything perfectly symmetrical.
So I believe that they had a notion and appreciation for symmetry, but they just didnt rank it as high as we don nowdays compared to other qualities like decorations. As Tod already mentioned it further had a lot to do with craftsman being paid by each piece, hence it didnt make much sense to spend more time than necassary.
5:36 yes I hear this often when talking about the Pyramids or Stonhenge, saying "oh we don't know how they did it" just means "we don't have records that explain what they did", not that we can't just extrapolate possible ways they could have done it or do better with modern technology. Maybe, just maybe, aliens weren't involved in making a big geometric pile of stone blocks.
@USERNAME[SKALLAGRIM] hello bot, go away bot
Here’s a suggestion for a fun episode. How would a HEMA practitioner protect themselves from the “Ghostface Killer” from the Scream franchise.
One thing that I personally thought of is that if swords were not symmetrical I wonder whether or not in medeval swordsmanship if there were ever any arguments over things about whether or the side with either the fatter or longer quillon or whatever should typically be considered the true edge while using the in combat or not I know that this type of thing would probably seem kind of silly and it would not be something that modern swordsman or HEMA practitioner in the 21rst century would typically think of.I'm also sure if such a thing was something which medeval and ancient people did think of there would have been alot of endless debate and alot of people would have had several different perspectives and opinions in regards to trying to determine which edge should be the true edge vs which one should be the false edge.
I couldn't agree more Skall, great video. As a Nihonto collector I can comment on Japanese swords. I've seen a lot of (modern and historical) Japanese swords (all kinds, katana, wakizashi, tanto, etc.). And again, I'm talking here about Nihonto, not Hanwei or (even worst) Ninja-mall crap.
Indeed, they are perfectly made and comparable to modern (also to mass produced like Hanwei/Coldsteel in terms of symmetry).
I can't comment on Japanese vs European as all the historical European swords which I saw in museums were mostly rusty scraps. The only perfect condition medieval sword I saw was "Szczerbiec" (ceremonial sword used in the coronations of most Polish monarchs from 1320 to 1764. It now is displayed in the treasure vault of the royal Wawel Castle in Kraków). However, I think that sword on the display is really a replica and not the real one (my conspiration theory ;)
Anyway, if you are interested in having a Zoom-web-call where we can talk about Japanese swords and I could show you my collection then let me know. I know you aren't that much interested in Japanese swords, but if you want to see perfect condition (and craftsman) Nihonto from 17th century, then I'm your man. Cheers!
The measure of appreciation(to me) in a handmade/traditional tooling made object IS the precision, harmony and symmetry. "Precisely"(aha) cause of the effort and talent needed to achieve it. What make the modern replicas "soulless" is the fact that you dont need such talent(soul) and effort to. Utterly nonsense to call sterile a replica that attain the making process and achieve the "quality" as well as some said in the videos, slightly imply that they dont had the appreciation or intent for such qualities. In other hand harmonization of fails/imperfections is a thing and requires talent and effort as well. Traditional making, as perfect as possible is king imo.
It's a fun thought to think about. I think the weirdest part about all of it is I'm serten that some guy pick some of his sword way back in the day for the imperfections. Something like I like my face eage quillon bent farther out and my true or something like that
Easily one of the most pleasant response videos I've seen.
The only thing I'll say about the ancient esoteric knowledge that was lost, there was (until extremely recently) one example where it was true, roman concrete was impossible to recreate and did actually surpass the concrete used today
We've known about how to recreate it for ages though. It just relies upon an ingredient we don't have access to, volcano ash.
It's the same as with Damascus Steel (Actual damascus steel, not that pattern welded crap people call damascus steel). We know how it was made, we just lack access to the materials necessary.
Where is the best place to buy swords or armor?
Depends.
What type are you looking for?
Modern Reproductions? Authentic Reproductions? HEMA Practice?
What's your price range?
Kult of Athena can be good for budget-mid level items. Specific manufacturers will do the high end items (Like $10-20k or more per item)
@Tarille I'm looking for a basket rapier and a breastplate for reenactment.
@@bradycole1477 Try something like Get Dressed For Battle or The Knight Shop for re-enactment stuff.
@Tarille thank you so much! 😁
This really helps me,
What is your favorite kind of sword?
@@bradycole1477 Personally, I'm a huge fan of single edged blades. Things like messers, katanas and sabers.
Despite the flat out advantages that double edged swords have, something about single edge just gets me.
Of course, I dream about eventually owning a greatsword... Such an intimidating and powerful weapon. I can only imagine how people might have felt when facing one down.
To quote Luca Blight from Suikoden 2
"Sword doesn't need a fine lineage, it just needs to be sharp"
(i would add that it also needs to be resilient as to not break/dull too easily, but i love robust "indestructible" things in general.).
I feel they made swords back then the way guns are made now. Yeah there’s the top end and fanciful stuff, but the cheaper and “low end” stuff will just as readily serve the same function. Like a $250 pump shotgun vs some tricked out 4,000+$ custom piece
Well, to be honest, there _are_ techniques and work processes that are lost to time.
I visited a local Museum on the celts, where they displayed some fragments and pieces of Celtic jewelry, amongst them parts of bracelets made of glass, that were closed and worn on the upper arm. They said there, that when they showed these bracelets to modern day master glass sculptors, they basically said "We don't know how they made these and are unable to replicate them with our modern tools".
They also showed a little Film of a craftsman, that tried to replicate a Celtic Chariot (which they jokingly called a Celtic Ferrari), that was found in a grave, and if memory serves me right, he said it took him two whole years to finish it due to having to figure out how they made all the parts. I think he said, that it took about a year for him to figure out a way to replicate how they could have done the iron ornaments the frame of the Chariot was studded with.
I think Medieval cathedrals sort of throw cold water on the idea that Europeans in the Middle Ages couldn't do meticulous, symmetrical work. It seems to me that in weapon making, even with fancy weapons, there was a limit to the time they were going to spend getting something 'right'. But when it came to the Houses of God, buildings that were constructed over generations, they made every effort to get things right. If you look at Notre Dame Cathedral or Reims Cathedral both completed in the Late Middle Ages you can tell that they had a notion of both symmetry and detailed workmanship.
I usually think about armor work.. when i hear about lost ways.. of artisans of the past
I have a modern Bowie that was crafted for me by a local blade smith. Even with his machinists skills. & modern equipment there are still a couple
“”imperfections””! So unless it has been cranked out by some sort of cnc there will still be slight variations but those are not necessarily a bad thing! It is STILL a work of art!!! That i have used while hunting & setting up dear stands. My dad & my brother about had a heart attack when I pulled it out & cleared some limbs! That past i had it apprised about 15 or 20 years ago it was worth 600 double what I paid for it
Hey Skall, I got a bot bugging me about an Instagram gift or some bs. Thought I'd let ya know
I did larp in my younger years and made all my own weapons.
I can tell you what I value.
Hand grip. Can't bite. I need to be able to swing it and clash with other weapons without hurting my hands.
Overall weight. I need to be able to hold it up when I have been swinging it for a while without fatiguing.
Weight distribution. This dovetails into weight and hand grip.
I don't mention edge retention or anything like that because my larp sword is foam that I play tag with.
Is a foam sword all that heavy?
Fascinating watch!
I'm not really a sword guy at all.
But there's a point to be made here, Musashi Miyamoto legendary swordsman defeated Sasaki Kojiro with a wooden sword he had made out of an oar on the way to the duel. The improvised weapon gave him a reach advantage. An oar carved into a blade managed to defeat an opponent that likely was way more skilled than most modern sword duelists.
A less than perfectly symmetrical sword is a negligible disadvantage if you're skilled at what you're doing.
Only modern sword collectors care about all the technicalities, they're sort of like what car toy collectors are to race car drivers.
You're right! I have old weapons that I would NEVER use for testing, and modern ones I totally use all the time! LOL
I wonder if modern stories of the days of swords and armour and the rest have warped the aesthetic of what a sword or knife etc should look like. As you pointed out, swords were intended to be functional. That is a different goal than beautiful though there is crossover. Perhaps we see swords first as art, then as functional. I'm sure a lot more people collect swords than cut with them. I expect the more decorated the sword the less likely it saw a lot of use on the battlefield. Rather like the presentation forms of tools given to people in recognition of work etc. are not expected to be taken and used framing a house. Our modern machine age has created expectations of both aesthetic and functional worth. We will tend to buy the thing that looks better even if it is poorer quality. Great video. Thanks.
Plain swords, especially late ones in good condition have the aesthetic of their own in their unique shape and proportions.
I always wondered modern vs old ones as most replicas seem to be much worse than the historical "facts" say they were. Take the Roman ballista "The maximum range was over 500 yards (460 m)" and the furthest I have ever seen a replica do, is BELOW 100m, 1/5 of the range....so are modern builders inferior to the old ones, because they needed it more and we just do it for "fun" ?