Are Real Swords more Fragile than You Think?
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- čas přidán 6. 06. 2024
- Find part 2 of this discussion here: • @scholagladiatoria + @...
Real-life (sadly) isn't quite like the legends or movies, where magical swords go through dozens or even hundreds of battles or duels, while staying pristine and unscathed.
I had an interesting chat with @scholagladiatoria about the kinds of damage we see (or don't) in historical originals. This is a topic I haven't seen covered a whole lot, outside of edge vs. flat parry debates.
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** Time stamps **
00:00 - 00:26 The riddle of steel
00:26 - 02:24 Sources: collections vs. archeology
02:24 - 03:22 What happened, and WHEN?
03:22 - 06:06 Reproductions & unrealistic expectations
06:06 - 07:18 How much can you really preserve the edge?
07:18 - 09:36 Examples of damaged blades
09:36 - 12:10 Damage & repair
12:10 - 13:02 Re-polishing of katana blades
13:02 - 14:54 "Recycling" & re-forging broken blades
14:54 - 16:34 It will happen anyway
16:34 - Why are so many swords even edged all the way?
17:56 The good news ;)
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#skallagrim #sword #history #scholagladiatoria #museum - Zábava
Watch part 2 on Matt's channel: czcams.com/video/6uHLt7uFuj4/video.html
Seriously? Talking that you are in the US i seriously doubt that your industrial replica are better in quality than the medieval ones. The kind of forgery you know from japanese high quality steel were in other regions too, it is just that in japan time kind of stood still like many other things, i mean they still have sword types that were used in china more than one thousand years ago, with that i mean the miao dao. I mean take the Toledo steel production was seen in the 15th and 16th centuries. Or take Abu al-Rayhan Muhammad ibn Ahmad al-Biruni, circa 973 CE - 1048 CE both wrote about swords and steel made for swords, based on their surface appearance, geographical location of production or forging, or the name of the smith, and each mentions "damascene" or "damascus" swords to some extent.
You should consider the kind of work a good blade takes too. Usually only officers got worthwhile swords, while normal foot soldiers took cheap stuff and why not, if you kill someone you can pick up the sword and fight further with it. It is done today with rifles too, soldiers are trained for example in US weapons and RUS weapons alike.
Actually the comment about hitting your steel into something hard and it gets shipped is kind of bullshit too. Ever seen on youtube or tv >> forged and fire
With all the time you invested in swords, are you not aware that most of the good swords got like a name? Excalibur, Gram, also known as Balmung or Nothung, is the sword that Sigurd used to kill the dragon Fafnir.The Green Dragon Crescent Blade (Chinese: 靑龍偃月刀) is a legendary weapon wielded by the Chinese general Guan Yu etc.,
Heshikiri Hasebe
Famous sword by sword smith 'Kunishige'. A Japanese national treasure. 'Heshikiri' means press and cut and is said to derive from an anecdote about Nobunaga pressing and cutting a chabozu who had been rude to him, including the entire cupboard in which he hid.
Yoshimoto Samonji
A trophy from the Battle of Okehazama, which belonged to Imagawa Yoshimoto when he was killed. This sword was owned by Nobunaga, then passed to Hideyoshi and Ieyasu, and was called 'the famous sword that ruled the whole country'.
Yagen Tōshirō
Matsunaga Hisahide donated it to Oda Nobunaga. It is said that it was burned down in the Honnō-ji Incident.
Dōjigiri Yasutsuna sword
Dōjigiri is one of the Five Swords under Heaven (天下五剣) made by Hōki Yasutsuna, this was the legendary sword with which Minamoto no Yorimitsu killed the boy-faced oni Shuten-dōji (酒呑童子) living near Mount Oe. It was presented to Oda Nobunaga by the Ashikaga family and was subsequently in the possession of Toyotomi Hideyoshi and Tokugawa Ieyasu.
Kotegiri Masamune sword
Kotegiri means "kote cutter". In this case kote is a contraction of yugote (弓籠手), the arm guard used by a samurai archer. This name comes from an episode in which Asakura Ujikage cut an opposing samurai's yugote in the Battle of Toji in Kyoto. Oda Nobunaga gained possession of this sword and had it shortened to its present length.
@@PaMuShin 😐
When he was talking about guard damage i had some old sword French sword that the blade end was broken off on and by the way it was broken you could tell it was battle damage. But the nastiest part was the guard was broken in half part of it missing and the wood on the grip had a deep gash in it. Inside the gash i actually found a very small sliver of bone! from the location on the grip i assume with some level of certainty that bone slaver was from their ring finger. When it happen is impossible to know for sure but how it happened well better than even chance it happened during real combat 2 people were absolutely trying to kill each other. I would suspect the person who had my sword was on the losing end as losing a finger like that would likely result in the sword being dropped
Yikes... that sounds unpleasant.
Wow that's nasty 😄
Maybe a lesson to not rely so heavily on your guard, one of mine's a highland baskethilt broadsword and I'm fairly new to their historical use but they do lead with the basket more than I'm comfortable with 🫤
@@valandil7454 one of my friends told me about his protective gear to "trust it, but don't realy on it"
that can apply here too.
Hand attacks are extremely effective lol
Nah much more likely that was a practice accident. A very vintage unrecorded Historic EMA practice accident. How else would the broken weapon have been saved? The loser of the duel or battle wouldn't have gotten to keep it (or certainly wouldn't have wanted to) and the winner, I suppose you could speculate as to why they'd keep only half of the blade? Overall it doesn't make sense.
The man who lost the finger while knocking about with his friends though, might have kept it around to hang on the wall and explain to his kids why not to play with sharp things and tell the tale of his missing finger to his grandkids.
10:10 - 'It probably did decades ago' - not a sword but this is how Jan III Sobieski's 'karacena' armour was destroyed by a museum in Dresden. It was covered in blue corrosion which beautifully constrasted with the golden crosses on the plates. Some decades ago a curator decided to remove the corrosion with acid and throw away old feathers from the helmet. It wiped out the original golden finish in the process.
Oh man, that hurts...
My inner pierogiboo just died a little bit
That's why there should never just be one curator and actions like these should be voted on by a knowledgeable committee
@@dannyeckerd9324curators of the past were not that careful or responsible compared to today. There were no standardised practices or ethics, just whoever had enough claimed expertise.
I have to imagine that rust will infiltrate stress fractures faster than the surrounding metal. This could be the cause of large chunks missing from archaeological finds. A relatively small nick on a blade could have many microscopic stress fractures attached to it.
A nick is also just a place where mechanical stress can concentrate into, this creating a weakpoint in an otherwise fine blade
12:30 A lot of Japanese swords in museums had evidence of being shortened, especially when you get towards the smaller end. Much of this could be conversion of damaged blades.
A huge part of that was war standardization too. Many, many family blades were brought in for shortening for standardizing, and many of these were done quite crudely. Some were "repaired" (Cheaply due to war costs) afterwards, but many were not and instead donated to museums as is.
I've only seen a few Japanese swords that weren't shortened, and it's uncanny to see something like a Sengoku period sword at a similar length of a longsword.
Matt Easton: From zero to context in under 2 minutes! xD
- I love this collab, off now to watch the second half.
Well, to be frank, everything in life does involve context.
What is current WR Matt Easton context any% speedrun?
A new record!
@@andrewbattleship24200s
Great fun chatting Skall! My Part 2 is now live.
You know, the way a lot of armchair HEMA "experts" talk, European swords never broke or chipped while Japanese swords snap if someone looks at them too hard. So it's always nice to see the real experts correct them like this. Nice job both of you!
It's a problem with trying to correct myths like the whole "katanas rule, longswords drool" nonsense: it's all too easy to over-correct.
Having said that, in general, Japanese sword edges _are_ substantially more fragile than European swords of similar quality.
Even the foils in my old fencing class had bits of damage.
@@irrelevantfish1978 Substantially is not the word I'd use. They do chip more than they do roll, but that can limit the edge damage to a smaller area. However, due to being harder they may also dig into the edges of a softer blade.
People are still on that?
I thought the armchair experts had all moved on to insisting that historical soldiers exclusively used polearms, and swords were just pieces of jewelry that nobody poorer than a baron could ever afford...
@@GaelicMongrel2023 I'd urge you to watch some of Matthew Jensen's destructive testing videos of both through- and differentially hardened katanas. After doing so many heinous things to so many swords, the man's as expert as any living person on the matter, and his experience agrees with what materials science would predict: harder edges handle gentle use better and harsh use worse.
You see, even half-hearted metal-on-metal contact _will_ exceed the fracture toughness of a traditionally heat-treated katana edge, and brittle fracture dissipates energy more destructively than ductile deformation. The chipping of a differentially hardened edge is often deeper and almost always wider than that of a softer, through-hardened edge, with repair generally requiring more grinding on a weapon able to tolerate less before being rendered useless. Worse, chipping tends to cause greater stress concentration than deformation, meaning that until it's repaired, a damaged, differentially hardened blade is more likely to fail catastrophically on subsequent impacts.
Need to get yourself a Valyrian Steel sword. They may cost you a literal arm and a leg to get a hold of, but they never get scratched or dull, and they can kill White Walkers, which makes them useful tools for self defense in the frozen wastes of Canada.
Youd be better served by getting a grip on reality and not watching crap.
@@DoesntHurtYeti will make you hurt. leave the man and his fantasy alone you pleb.
Nothing beats skyforge steel
@@DoesntHurtYetCheer up buttercup, life's too short to be miserable.
@@VivaSativaMusic lifes too short to not be vibechecked for unleashing useless autism on CZcams videos about specifically practical matters.
I'm not surprised that you would both collaborate really well and you picked a really good point 🙂
A good number of the things we choose to show in our museums are spliced recreations posing as representatives instead of the real things, the more you travel in Europe the more you'll be able to see the attitude of the curator, I've seen clearly original archeological finds in Norway and clearly recreations made of modern materials in Italy.
I think not many people in this day and age are likely to be drawn in unless it's mirror polished, perfectly tapered and straight without any toolmarks, movies and games have given us this unattainable expectation 🙂
Well I always enjoy hearing both of you speak so please do more like this, come visit us Skall 😋
This is great! I can’t remember the last time these two collaborated.
I’d imagine modern steel has somewhat spoiled us and historical steel would’ve varied in quality and may have been more open to deep chips. I always imagined historical people would repair their swords if necessary but I never could’ve imagined they were repaired as recently as the 1970s! That blew my mind!
I really hope to see more collaborations with other great sword channels in the future. (Personally I’d like to see Matthew Jensen)
How dare you educating me 😡 i wanna stay dumb
Are you saying that current armies no longer keep their weapons in working order?
@@johndododoe1411 Some armies yes, some armies no, and sometimes it is a mixed bag. The entire US military is like the definition of "Accounting Privates for empty mags and losing entire warehouse of munition" at the same time.
@@ZeroXSEED
Don’t you know those lost warehouses of munitions are really being used up in the secret interstellar war with aliens? 😂
@@keirfarnum6811 I wish. People say "Smuggled to proxy war" but then some drunk idiot stumbled on abandoned building full of explosives.
Literally more than dozen times.
I have been waiting for this crossover event for so long 😂
Me too. I have been waiting for such a crossover since I started following Skal and Matt in 2015. Great that finally happened.
Skall AND Matt Easton in a video?? Awesome!!
2nd opinion: a hairy guy and a hairless guy coming together over a shared interest? Absolutely epic!!!
Makes you wonder, if Matt ever had any hair on his head.
I really like the discussion on this "secondary" topic. There is always more to learn. Hopefully we'll see more of this in the future.
I’m reminded of the dandaofa xuan treatise. Its a two handed dao treatise - a European counterpart might be a kreigsmesser with a longer handle.
In that book they very explicitly state that you should parry/block with the back of the sword when interacting with hard objects to preserve the edge because if the edge gets damaged it will no longer cut and you can no longer kill the other guy.
Yep, the ability to use the spine is one of the upsides of a single-edged sword.
Awesome. I love seeing Matt lend his expertise to the topic. Great to see you two collaborating, Skall!
It's just like the movies, though. Albions are always delivered by that bath-tub lady with the music, Deepeekas are delivered by the scary woman who comes through the TV screen.
The museum I work in has at least one sword on display that has visible damage from a clash on it.
This is a really really good conversation, thanks for sharing
You're wrong Skall... I think people would easily sit through an hour or two of you and Matt talking blades.
Well, maybe we can do a stream like that, those are always unreasonably long. :)
@@Skallagrim I'm more than happy to do a stream hangout and just chat about random things 😊
@@Skallagrim says you
@@scholagladiatoria I'm sorry for bothering you, but I've noticed that my comments on your channel had suddenly become invisible to anyone but myself. I've been a long-time (8+ years) subscriber and hopefully helpful contributor to the community.
All within context, of course... XD
the sword community really needs to do more colabs.
PS: you two have great dynamic, great to listen to.
Great to see you and Matt having a good chat, greatly enjoyed it! You guys should do it more often! Cheers Skall
An excellent collaboration. Interesting from start to finish, so I hope there's more to come.
17:58 someone memed that at shad and he said it was depicting violence against him.
Even better it was artwork made by a human drawing every line themselves, no hint of "AI Art" at all.
Wow! One of my favourite videos recently. Learned a lot!
This is absolutely fascinating! Thank you gentlemen for covering this topic so thoroughly!
Lovely to see this collaboration. I watch both of you regularly.
Loved the discussion format! It's dynamic, and covers different aspects.
Still my personal favorite videos you do have a historical context. Love this stuff! Best wishes!
This is like a dream come true! Love it that you two teamed up for these videos! ❤
love this collaboration! you and Matt are my go to's when it comes to information on medieval weapons this was cool to see
I'm looking forward to more crossovers, collabs, and convos, Skall! This is great!
Great to see the two of you collaborate on a video and on such an interesting topic.
Now this is a cross-over episode ive been wating for, great video broder, skål!
Brilliant collaboration. I could listen for hours.
You two have some of the best rapport I’ve seen on the internet lately. Loved the video!
Awesome collab. Would love to see more of these!
what a nice surprise to see matt here
Great video, discussion and collaboration!
Great video! I could have listened to you guys talk for a while. The photos were great too.
One of the reasons i love my Easton Mk3 sabre, is because of that lobed/barbell shaped edge. It seems way more resistant to developing burrs than the more traditional rectangular shapes.
Burrs you need to take off with a file, whick removes material.
Awesome to see you guys team up.
What a great conversation. Thanks guys!
Really enjoyed the video. Great collab.
when skall said "someone who has seen more historical swords/been to more museums than me" I was already like "no way is this actially happening" lol
I enjoyed this collaboration thank you
The pommel always brings on a smile for me. Always. Thanks Skall.... gonna watch Part 2 now.
Excellent video Skall!!
What a pleasant and educational interview nice to see and educated dialogue about a shared interest
LOVE this video, super interesting, great discussion!
I love this type of video, you bringing someone on and talking about this stuff
Excellent video, fascinating and informative. Thank you guys!
Always love your vids Skallagrim.
Oh Skall and Matt, yes im watching
Great collaboration. I'd love to see more of this.
I love this video! I hope to see more of it. I think one thing a lot of people miss about discussions on this topic is how long a soldier (knight or not) was actually expected to fight per battle. Battles & skirmishes with big melees were not as common as people think because they were inherently more risky for commanders. This is because battles required either one side being stupid enough to be cornered/surrounded, or more likely, both sides believing their was a decent enough chance of victory to be willing to engage in a battle, which means both forces were at least comparable to each other, which is not super common. All this means that sword wielding troops often had fewer opportunities to test the actual durability of their weapons. And since battles were rare compared to sieges in the medieval period (with sieges being 90% a bunch of waiting with some ranged combat), it was even rarer to have a second battle immediately afterward without time for you as a soldier to visit the camp blacksmith to have your sword fixed up. All of this means that, practically speaking, is that a sword in the medieval period only had to practically be durable enough to be usable for one battle. Any damage suffered can be either fixed or replaced (in more extreme cases) afterwards.
So how much sword swinging does a soldier actually DO in a battle? Well this is a far more difficult to answer question. Not just because the answer is so varied based upon what type of soldier, how unique the circumstances are, where you are in your formation, how smart your commander is, etc., but because this question changes over the course of just this period of history. I think a more narrow and helpful question "what is the maximum amount of time you could expect a soldier to run around and swing his sword with intent to kill?" as this gives you the upper bound for what you could expect a sword to deal with in the one battle it is expected to last. Fighting for your life, maneuvering formations, and even running down fleeing troops, is an absolutely exhausting affair . You are carrying around heavy gear, probably didn't get much sleep the night before, who knows when last you had a good meal, possibly have metal in front of your mouth blocking airflow, are pumped full of adrenaline, are scared, and probably are swinging your sword with less efficiency than your training (as people tend to be less energy efficient with their movements when in extreme danger), and are probably running to take better positions on the field. Even with an athletic lifestyle growing up AND lots of physical training, there are fundamental limits on how much energy human body can exert at one time before they HAVE to rest. And you have to consider becoming a casualty, as every engagement is a gamble if you are going to survive, and it's no use having a sword that is durable enough to survive 10,000 sword clashes if you have a .00001% chance of even surviving to use it that many times. So how many fights does a sword have to deal with, considering all this? 1 fight? 4 fights? 10? can breaks between skirmishes extend this number many times over? How good are soldiers at running down fleeing troops? I don't know and I'd love to see some simulated testing to really try to establish how long a soldier could practically fight in a medieval melee. However, the best thing I can say is this: a sword only has to be durable enough to remain usable in 1 battle just barely longer than your own "durability" as a soldier. A sword only has to outlast it's wielder.
I know that's not the most tangible of conclusions, but it's absolutely fascinating to think about. Anyways, I really enjoyed this video and I hope to see more of it.
Love seeing you guys together. Always happy to see the HEMA CZcamsrs chat about history.
So much interesting info here and I would've never even considered the "children playing with them" example, got a good chuckle as well
Probably the two best at this kind of content.
Great discussion!
Great to see Matt Easton
Cool vid and super guest! Learned lots. Thank you.
That bit about kids handling attic swords should be considered historical value by now.
Awesome crossover
videos like this is why iv been subbed for like 3-4 years now. gj
These two getting together is like having Kirk and Picard get together and talk about Enterprises! Priceless!
I'm Picard, right? ;-)
Seriously though, thanks.
Which ever one you choose! They're both amazing and so are you guys! I truly appreciate all I've learned from you!
@@scholagladiatoriaPicard was rather British for a Frenchman.
Glad to see recent events havent put you off collaborations entirely.
@@scottmacgregor3444what recent events?
Awesome video! Very informative and enjoyable, hope you guys collaborate more often!😃
Very enjoyable collaboration, and nicely balanced!
Stunning collaboration.. I’m in awe
Love these vids! Glad you exist
Really enjoyed this! Thanks both
YOOOOOOO I actually requested this in the comments of one of your videos, thank you so much!
Heck yeah!
A conversation with the two people reasonable for reigniting my love for historical arms and armor!
Awesome video!
Cheers!
Very cool technical info! Thanks!
That's pretty cool to see youtubers we appreciate collaborating like this.
Nice collab :)
Beautiful collab! Cheers, mates!
I was a chef (meaning I have made MILLIONS of blade strokes under various real conditions), and I can absolutely verify that steel blades, regardless of whether they are made stiff for long-time resiliance or more pliable for daily re-workability, do in fact get plenty of edge damage and end up being resharpened or reshaped many time... and that's just from carrots and ham bones. If you actually use a blade for daily tasks, those complex-covalent metal/chemical bonds and semi-crystal material packets do give way in various ways, and any kind of mishaps or heavy work just make it more inevitable and more often. Any knife edge that is still pristine decades after it was made, is one that was never really used. Even enough strikes on and strokes along a "soft" cutting board will eventually take its tolls on the steel.
All metal is in some ways similar to a liquid, and forged/tempered metals are in some ways also like a gemstone. Depending on the temperature, pressure, and contact surfaces, metal will flow, bend, splash, chip, splatter, warp, fatigue, and even shatter like glass. It is subject to both steady force and harmonic reverberations in various ways. Metal has a spirit, you might say, a breath and a blood, and it must be cared for like a living being to get the most out of its lifetime. This is the essential wisdom of the "cult of blades" since ancient times, which has continued to this day.
To see the "liveliness" and vulnerability of steel at a grand scale, check out footage of [Tacoma Narrows Bridge Collapse "Gallopin' Gertie"] of 1940, which had reinforcement i-beam girders over 2 meters tall, plus hundreds of suspension cables. It was destroyed by a simple coincidental resonant wind frequency... hard steel undone by a breath of air.
I'm sure knives that are used to cut ingredients with particularly strong acidic/base content may need to be checked for corrosion.
For those types of cutting tasks you would use an appropriate steel. Something with a high chromium percentage that is very corrosion resistant. M390, LCN2000, Elmax to name a few.
Nice having both of you there guys!
awsome format of vídeo!
Thanks for the crossover episodes Skall! ❤
You two brought up a lot of very interesting points.
Excellent discussion. Always glad to see Skall playing nice with the boys across the pond(s), vice versa.
I remember in one of my early HEMA classes some 2 decades ago having a piece of blade whiz by my face during a drill, with very blunt swords.
The instructors told us there was a greater chance for some chipping with mixed blades of different material, but they'd never seen something just outright break, certainly not like that. The swing caused the tip to fly off across 2-3 of us lined up, and we had no idea what it was till the guys a bit far noticed the steel practice blade was broken... by all things... against the aluminum blade, which shocked everybody.
In response, we made sure to pair up against the same metal from then on.
Great video man! On a previous video about recommended swords to buy there was a mention of the TFW Bastard Sword. You had said that you ALMOST bought it and I'm highly considering it. Was wondering if you'd ever consider a review on it? It looks gorgeous but I'm curious as to the quality.
It only took you guys 10 years lol this is awesome tho, hope there's more to come
as much as i love the content this one is the best ! keep em comming my man, keep em comming!
Sharp is more fragile that blunt.
Absolutely Matt.
Great collab Skall, never seen Matt on YT but just subbed.
Thanks
Oh cool. A collaboration with Mr. Matt.
Nice to see.
This is the collab we needed 😁
Love your vids. Glad you exist
Great collaboration!
Brilliant episode. Thank you chaps.
Another very educating video! Very nice.
Cool video and great collab
Matt still got in the word "context" in less than 2 minutes. Great job, Matt!
very happy to see this collaboration
this was really good
Great discussion lads. Need to have more swordfriends getting together as these talks always bring about great points and information that may otherwise had been overlooked.
hey i love this, just wish it was longer
Nice to have the two of you in one video.