You Don't Need Amps To Gig
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- čas přidán 14. 06. 2024
- I always had my doubts about amp modellers and if it would be possible to gig with them in a rock context. Well I finally got my answer. You don't need an amp to gig anymore. I used a Line6 Helix to play a gig and can you tell the difference with stage volume?
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0:00 Guess
0:43 Amp Sims
1:57 Digitech RP50
4:03 Stage Volume
6:33 Affiliates
7:11 Line6 Helix
8:18 In Ears
9:06 Which Is Which?
10:09 Conclusion - Hudba
As a musician who plays in small venues like you, I would say it totally depends on the situation. Sometimes you have a really good PA system and it would be super okay to go ampless. Sometimes it's barely holding up handling vocals, kick drums, and so on. My amp is my only way to guarantee my stage sound and tone are consistent from venue to venue (and in really small venues like pubs or small clubs, stage volume is basically the whole venue volume. So as an independent DIY touring band, we rely more on our own gear, so real amps are a must at least for me.
Couldn't agree more, happened to me twice this year where small venue PA's just sucked with a DI sound and/or the monitoring wasn't up to snuff. After the second time wouldn't dare play a gig without an amp now
yea, show up with a tonex asking where to plug in at the venues we play and you're shit out of luck
10000% agree. I play around town playing acoustic folk, and in a metal band as a guitarist. You MUST provide your own sound. You cannot rely on the venue, unless you’re touring around and a manager is lining up all of the shows and coordinating with the venues making sure they have what you need there. But even then, they could claim to have a great system because Becky’s second cousin Steve’s includes cousin used to work at guitar center and hooked up their sound with the best stuff they could get out of the classifieds in the paper in 1999.
Amp less is rad, but carry around your gear just in case. Especially if traveling far from home. You don’t have to pack it in, if the venue has great sound, but if they don’t, you’ve got your stuff.
This! It's really something a lot of people don't talk about. As much as I love ampless solutions, I still am still absolutely dependant on owning a tube head. I even played venues where the PA was just sufficient to do vocals and maybe a little drums. Guitar amps weren't even miked.
It’s all subjective to the user. I tour with modeling units and power amps for cabs. Works great. I also tech for a larger band playing huge festivals and they use the same combination with no issues at all. It’s all about the person
One thing about ampless is that you’re entirely at the mercy of the quality/power of the venue’s PA and you also require a sound tech that cares/knows what they’re doing. I’ve played venues with underpowered and/or antiquated sound systems. In those cases the less being put through the PA, the better. I’ve also worked with my share of completely ignorant or incompetent sound techs so that’s another huge concern.
Not to mention pubs where you don`t have a PA at all.
1000% agree.
Going completely amp-less is heavily dependent on the venue's setup.
For that reason, I like both approaches.
No reason to have and choose one or the other.
I've owned multiple versions of the Line 6 POD throughout the years for at home practicing, and it sounds great through a good pair of headphones and disturbs no one.
At the same time, one of the best parts of being a electric guitar player is the experience of plugging it into a kick ass sounding amp that emulations will never be able to fully recreate.
If you know the venue's PA is good and the sound guy knows his shit, by all means go amp-less.
If not, having a real amplifier certainly doesn't hurt for a back-up.
As a sound guy, I approve this message. The PA should simply be sound reinforcement, not the entire sound output. Many house systems were designed with that in mind. Until they're all intended to handle the full load, I wouldn't go full DI.
if you're in the DIY (punk, indie, etc) circuit playing basements, weird dive bars, house shows, etc -- you might not even get a PA, so this amp-less approach would definitely NOT work.
@@dickenbacker nothing like arriving at the basement show and realizing you have to provide your own PA or amp for vocals.
Before the reveal I didn't know which setup was amped or ampless, but I did know which one sounded a lot better to me, and it turned out to be the one with actual amps. But given that the recordings were made in different venues, that may not mean anything at all.
I definitely agree. Amped also
sounded better to me. Felt like there were more low end presence and movement to the sound. The drummers in ears also revealed the answer prematurely.
The two recordings were different venues and very different sound qualities
I also get all the sound tests online 100% correct. That dirty Fricker can't fool me. Of course my hearing is perfect. I won't lie on CZcams comment where no one can verify if really got it correct to push a narrative.
No way you can tell anything from this audio. You can guess but that's all you're doing.
Agree with the stage volume thing. That's massively important. I think though the key factor is "you don't need a heavy tube amp head anymore". I now just use a duncan powerstage and plug it to whatever cab they have on the venue, or bring like a 2x12 with me if they don't have one. All I use that for is stage volume anyways. It'll be cool when it becomes normal for bands to use sims so that venues can start placing speakers behind the stage too so we can finally do away with amps altogether.
Speakers behind the stage? 😂
Monitors on stage or in ear monitors would make much more sense
Coming from the other direction as a soundguy I ask myself why you want to be dependant on us to this degree... Instead of just going a few steps backwards and turn a knob you have to reach out to the mixer, get attention, signal whats wrong, mixer needs to get into submix-menu of console, needs feedback from you again if what they did fixed the problem... But okay, I don`t really understand why people need 20.000 sounds when they play distorted 95% of the time anyway either.
Monitors point to the musicians, I mean speakers pointing to the crowd, from where you would normally put amplifiers.@@TimmyDarkness
@@johannalvarsson9299 I think you miss the whole point. We as musicians do not seek to depend on you more, if anything, this makes your job a whole lot easier since you're not placing microphones on amplifiers anymore but rather dealing with constant line level audio straight out of a modeler, and we use a separate line to our in-ears (or even a stage amp, depending on the case) where we can setup to our liking and you just focus on venue sound.
In the past, if we needed to turn up our amps we would need to warn you so that you can compensate the line from that amplifier, this doesn't happen anymore.
The side effect this all brings, as mentioned on this video, is that removing amps altogether makes it weird for people standing right in front of the stage as venue speakers tend to be right beside the stage, pointing to the back so people close to the stage are missing a ton of audio now.
@@ferna182As a sound guy, I can say I never get such a warning. I just watch the levels and make sure you don't peak out. It's sort of easier for you, but not so much for us, aside from the feedback aspect. Volume can still fluctuate wildly between patches and we still have to mix for the room.
I think it really boils down to what works for you as a musician. I think it is great that we have so many great options now with all this amazing gear. For me I will always have an amp on stage with me but I am an old school guy who still loves a good ol amp to play out of.
My Line 6 Spider 112 Red Face Amp is still the best!!
I find using a floor modeler combined with a power amp and 2x12 cab is the best of all worlds for me. I can DI the modeler to FOH if I want to, but the cab can also provide stage volume, and it can be miked up. Certain gigs I have brought just the modeler signal sent to FOH from our rack with IEMs. Other gigs I've miked up the cab, and at smaller clubs, I've used just the cab itself, unmiked. You have a lot of options with this kind of setup.
I had this exact idea but for my bass, and now Ive been inspired by you enough to commit to this!
That's the setup I use, modeler+power amp and a 2x12, tbh I barely use the power amp but feels safe to have in case you need it
great old news, thank you 😂🙈..in fact, real gear is on a comeback right now but i think we will end up with hybrid designs combining digital and analog (tube)technology like hughes&kettner doing it since ever, the grandmeister was one of the very first hybrid amps and it is still on the market and it has been a very popular amplifier for 10 years now.
personally i have a gig this 8th of december and i always seem to use a supermarket sausage and i plug into that directly with a ts jack, and straight away im melting faces with burning snags resonating every building i cook in, i mean *cough cough* perform in.
This is INCREDIBLE news KDH .Despite gigging with modellers for about 25 years I NEVER would have guessed ! I must have missed all the manufacturers claims,my friends and non-friends experiences and most importantly i left my earplugs in my ears for 2 decades plus.Doh silly old me!Thanks for this GROUNDBREAKING video😀
A bit sarky. Did you make a video?
@@11000038 a good sense of humour is needed when something is explained that is relatively simple and has been in common knowledge for many many years.
I do enjoy and have subscribed to the channel though. This video was a bit too obvious in my opinion but I suppose on reflection having met many guitarists....😀
Yes I do. Most of the gigs I play have poor PA support where only the kick drum and vocals are through the mains. I even played one without any monitors last week. An amp is fairly critical for people playing non-traditional venues.
yeah man, "punk" venues need loud amps :D
My band played a show and I decided to borrow my drummer's line 6, and my bassist used a head and cab. I plugged direct into the mixer, but the sound guy wasn't too great at his job. My drummer's monitor was unplugged, so he couldn't follow the first song, and we had to restart the set. The guy also wasn't happy that I was using a solo boost, so he shut off my monitor mid performance. I swapped to using an amp for the next gig, and we played significantly better. I'd say modelers are very situational, and depend on the venue's PA
Thank you for this discussion! I could not tell the difference between the two clips! Just to note, BluGuitar Amp1 (either Iridium or Mercury), that you've mentioned another band using, are "real" amps using solid state (transistor) preamps and a nanotube+Class D power section. They are, however, designed in such a way that they can be played going direct through some sort of an IR loader. (And they sound great!)
Great tones ~ and nice to get to hear you play a bit ... great chops, too!
I've been using Guitar Rig for years. I honestly don't care how it compares to other amp sims or actual amps. I love it for me. I bought a half stack and pedal assortment a while back because I joined a gigging band, but I was too used to Guitar Rig. So, I sold the pedals and bought a laptop to run Guitar Rig, then ran the output into the back of the amp!
For shows I split the audio between my amp and the house PA. The Guitar Rig foot controller is also an audio interface. It works great!
I enjoy my tube amps, but I use them mostly at home for own enjoyment; I have a 50W 1x12 combo that I can gig, and HX-Effects to cover all effects.
I recently completed my computer / plugin rig, and it's working great for me; sounds great, reliable, easy to use at home, recording and live.
That said, a computer rig isn't the best choice for dive bars, so I'm using an ISP Theta Pro Michael Sweet; I can run it into an amp/cab, direct out or both. It's built like a tank, but it's not a modeler, it's a preamp + effects with a very good eq, which takes time to learn...it reminds me of my old rack rigs but in a very small compact floor unit. Works great for me.
I was listening/watching a live band recently for possible guitar gig opening. They did not use amps on stage just direct… not bad until they played Sweet Chile of Mine.. then during the intro I really noticed the difference. The average listener could’ve cared less but I explained to the woman next to me. It’s like surfing a wave pool as compared to natural ocean waves..🎉🎉🎉❤🎸🎵🎶🎵🏄🏻♂️🏄🏻🏄🏼♀️
I'm using my HX Stomp since I started gigging never regretted it and for Live it's 100% good enough if not better bc you don't have to carry everything and you don't need to mic shit up
Not needing to mic things is something I didn’t know I’d appreciate as much as I do since I started using modellers
The trick is to use a dual output setup with a pedal-poweramp. I use, with some additional pedals, a ToneX into a Harley Benton GPA100. The signal is splitted and goes into a IR loader, that way I get a nice tone via IEM and then the second output goes to the PowerAmp and then that goes to the cab.
Allows for the FOH having the regular setup and me getting a good IEM sound.
In band practice we use the hybrid style. We all have amps, but we have the lead guitarist on PA system cause I play only half of the time. It mainly goes to our Drummers floor monitor. We've also used amps for stage volume and modellers for "crowd", so we don't have to hassle with mics and stuff.
Just sold an Iridium and don't miss it (glad to see it go)....I've heard versions of this argument so many times.
If you love your digital solution....good on ya!
I have been at concert lately and both Bands did their Set Ampless. There was no compromise to my ears as a listener and the quallity of Sound was great.
i've been gigging ampless since 2018 and never looked back.some good in ears or a monitor and you're good to go.takes a bit of time to get used to but my back is very happy.
Aaaahh the sweet sound of the RP! My first pedal was the RP80, such good memories 🥹🥲
The problem with running amp less on stage is it's very dependant on the monitor mix.
Sometimes it's fine, sometimes the monitor mix just isn't where you need it to be or sometimes the in house monitors just sound terrible for one reason or another.
Almost always a real cab will sound warmer and fuller than foldback through wedges... in fact even when using a real amp I'll almost always tell the monitor engineer to not put any guitar in my wedge. Also is just one more thing to get in the way of being able to hear my vocals clearly (as I'm also a singer).
Every band that "goes digital" encounters the same problem... and for a lot of bands it goes something like...
1. Buy expensive modellers and cold turkey "all digital" on stage.
2. Realise the monitor issue I mentioned above and spend more money on FRFR speakers.
3. Realise you're at that point still lugging a ton of gear that still doesn't sound the same as a real amp.
4. Go back to real amps.
If you're on in ears (which has it's own logistical issues) or if you are lugging your own PA and have your own control over monitor mix, then sure... it can make sense. But in my experience, if you need to rely on in house gear and staff for your core tone, that's almost always going to lead to issues.
I can honestly say that I prefered the first video, which happened to be with an amp. Clearer, punchier, more presence, and the solo was more noticeable.
Great video and great timing. I have a show next month and just decided to use my Line 6 and IEM's. I've just seen ampless work so well for so many of the local bands. I also think IEM will help me hear myself better. We play at a club that usually has a really bad monitoring system so this should help out. Anyways, great video thanks for your insight@!
Sure, if you want to compromise your tone. 80% of that comes from your power amp/speakers and the way they move actual air in an actual space. Solid state amps with monitors are not made to be guitar amps. You run through the monitors after you get your tone. I've never heard a modeler even get close to a pair of 6l6GCs driving a JBL/Fender D120 orange back, and I never will. Not because I quit listening, because physics.
My band uses headrushes. We have 2 guitarists and a bass player and we all use headrush pedalboards into the headrush 1x12 frfr cabs for stage volume and we haven't looked back. The ability to swap entire "rigs" at a press of a button has such high value in of itself. I do strongly believe that amp sims and modelers are the future.
This is what ive been doing for the past 2 years, and it hasnt let me down yet.
newsflash: Headrush frfr cab is an amp and speaker in one box - effectively a combo
It's not an amp. It's a powered speaker. Yes, it technically has a "power amp" built in, but that doesn't make it a combo. It's just a powered speaker@@davidtomkins4242
Ayo, that's my boi!
In poor eastern Europe countries this discussion with the same talking points has been happening since the early 2000s - local bands in bars, pubs and small stages have been doing it ever since. It's been a very popular and affordable approach. There have always been elitists who say it sucks, but the audience did not care 20 years ago and still doesn't care today - people love it when they love the songs. :)
The only new thing is affordable IEMs - most people didn't have them before.
To be fair, most people come to listen to the singer, not see the guitar-player/s.
It has less to do with elitism from the house POV and more to do with sound coverage. Going full DI introduces its own problems and things don't always sound good at every spot in the house. Stage volume helps tremendously in that respect. I would never rely on the house sound system in every venue. Unless you're willing to rent or travel with your own line array, it's ill-advised.
@@yargnad I agree with you, it's because people here don't have money that they call it elitism and even if incorrect it's understandable :)
I've used my Blackstar Amped 3 for a few gigs now. I love it. I still run a cab onstage but I can di straight into the desk for the soundman. I recently played a gig with a singer from Nashville who was in Edinburgh for a few days. I had a few hours notice, so no time to learn anything or know what to take. I took the Amped 3 a 1x12 and a Wah. It handled the gig perfectly and I managed to bring everything into the venue in one trip.
i havent used an amp in over 20 years, been using boss multi effects with amp sims since the me30 and gt5, i currently use a gt1000 which can do just about anything if you have the know how, it can even make your electric guitar into an acoustic guitar while you blend your electric signal in with the expression pedal having completely difference effects on both at the same time, it is insane!!
I love my GT-1000. Amazing for bass as well
Ditto. Or not an electric guitar amp. I've used an acoustic one and a modeller as a decently powerful acoustic amp will work for acoustic guitar and electric, but most electric guitar amps sound mediocre with an acoustic. And if not needed for FOH, it makes a good supplementary personal monitor with two inputs.
Wow, an ME30... that takes me back! 🤘❤️
😂 I use a Boss BE-5, look that up, it's David Gilmour in a box.
But we are talking about a live situation.
Do you know ahead of time what the venue is supplying? Does it sound good? Powerful enough?
Big risk not bringing an amp and hoping you can plug in to the PA..
You haven't lived until you've muscled a Fender Quad Reverb up a flight of stairs.
The Quad Reverb was a 4x12" tube combo manufactured in the mid 70s.
I’ve got a 3-piece PA system (including an 18” subwoofer) and an 8 channel rack mixer. Run a Helix for guitar, HX Stomp for Bass, and a Roland TD-27KV2 for drums. Super light, super loud, very Hi-Fi. Surprisingly it all costs less than comparable guitar amps and acoustic drums. People will always scoff at this until they hear it in practice and do a price tag check. If we want to run into a PA system of a bigger venue, we simply give them the full range outs from the subwoofer to run to the board and use our 12” speakers as monitors.
Great video. I don't think I'll ever go the ampless route. I'm a 1x12 50 watt valve combo guy. It's not that big a deal getting it into gigs. It's heavy but I'm fit. We are all chasing tone in every way, it seems crazy to me to cut corners here. For me, there is a significant difference between both sounds. Im biased though. 😂
In my opinion, real rock n' rollers use real amps (and turn them up to 11). There are many different amps out there to have fun and experiment with. I wish people were less lazy. What will be next, AI pedals that you can switch on to play the right scale in a solo? That's not music. Some singers use pitch correction live which is...stupid. Great video again on an important topic we need to talk about.
Both! We run sound to FoH through our modelers and then have cabs for venues that need it/backup if our IEM rig goes down. We also have power amps that’ll work with just about any cab, so we can go to a venue without our cabs and use whatever another band has brought. Then for IEM’s, we run our own mix, so all FoH needs are directs from us. We even have our drums programmed in our IEM’s in case the FoH engineer isn’t the best at mixing, but then have a room mic as well to hear our drummer/audience. What a time to be a musician! :)
As a budget University student. I currently dont have the money to buy an amp modeller.
On top of this, my Fender Hot Rod Deluxe IV saves me 2 pedal slots on my pedal board. saving me the need for a drive pedal and a reverb. god I love Spring Reverb in Fender Amps and I dont think I can part with that sound just yet
In my band we only use amp sims ( Axe fx, pod go, ) and it has been an absolute blessing. You dont need a Van to bring your whole setup and dont need to break your back carrying heavy cabs and amps.
And they sound great.
Also we use iems and they sound crystal clear combined with the amp sims.
I've tried doing just the modeler thing live with no amp, and found that relying on some way other than your amp on stage to hear yourself means that you're just plain not going to hear yourself during many gigs. So then you start dragging along a powered FRFR speaker to solve that, but at that point, you're not saving any hassle with hauling gear and might as well just be using a small combo amp and some pedals. Sounds more fun to just not play live at all.
I went ampless a while back and have zero regrets. Bass player and singer both use quad cortex and I’m using an FM3. We DO use FRFR’s behind us for some stage sound but only just enough to match the drum sound.
I didn’t quit using an amp cold turkey though. I had to transition to cab-less with a two note torpedo and it was immediately more apparent of how much more control over the sound I had JUST from that. It made leaving the amps at home easy.
Just one pedal board case in one hand, EV ZLX in the other and a mono guitar bag on my shoulders. One trip to the car.
I used the bluguitar amp 1 pedel for gigging for 4 years, super small just throw it in a bag and you can connect it straight to the PA, we played a few outdoor festivals including donington race track no issues connect it to their PA system and use the stage monitors happy days tho i did have a back up cab with me just in case.
I’ve sold all my amps and use a Pod Go now. I haven’t gigged with it but rehearsals are simple and painless.
I WILL SAY a rockin tube amp will ALWAYS feel better though!
Awesome video brother!
I absolutely agree about the front row. Too many times have I been watching a band using modellers, and 90% of the sound is drummer with the vague whisper of a Quad Cortex coming from the PA somewhere behind my head. So I personally find amps in small-to-mid sized venues are essential, especially to compensate for the beer-filled stage monitors being shit. I guess bringing a FRFR would do the same, but if I'm carrying something it might as well be an amp. I am glad that modellers do all pretty much sound good though, and that people *can* gig with them.
YES
I commented about this in another post. I prefer floating the line array above the band on stage so there are no dead spots in the house and feedback is minimal, if any. Rigging issues aside, it's usually doable. Any live shows should always be considering the audience's perspective as much as the players.
That being said I feel modelers are too homogenous in a live setting and everyone sounds too similar. Give me a real, tight band with good stage volume and good sound reinforcement over electronic everything any day of the week. It's more real and creates a more unique and special experience, in my opinion.
I was front row at a small gig recently, and the guitarist was using a Helix or something. Sounded perfectly loud in front of me. Your mileage may vary, I guess.
@@Ghosty6464 The point is that everyone's mileage may vary depending on the venue. If you can't control the throw from the PA then it _may_ not sound good. The OP was front and center at the stage and the PA was out left and right. Without stage volume from the center there was no coverage in the best "seats" in the house. That may not always be the case but it obviously can happen.
@@yargnad Ty for explaining, I can see why that would suck. If the modeling amp has a speaker/cab on it, do you think that would help?
I gig with my Coolmusic busking amp. It has a DI and 4 channels and weighs only 7kg. Very useful.
I have the same digi tech pedal and I still love it!
I just can't give up that interaction between a real tube amps and the instrument. I also use in ear monitors.
It’s not only about needing a good pa to run amp modellers but you also need a good monitor system . Whether you run your own in ear monitors , take an frfr which means another cab to carry or each venue has to have enough monitors you can get the volume you need without annoying the band or not being able to to hear your playing or all the other string players
Videos like this, makes me think more and more about using my Fractal FM9 turbo. The feel is different yes, but the sound and tone, to the audience (the most important thing) is almost the same.
I got my buddy the Fender Mustang Micro for practicing in his apartment for like $70 and when I tried it out myself it made me want one for myself despite having a space where I can play with my amps turned up. They're fun even if you don't gig
You are the first youtuber I know of that finally addresses the stage volume issue with modelers at small venues. I have been to many shows where the guitar is simply inaudible next to an acoustic kit and a loud bass amplifier. Its a bad situation to be in for music that is supposed to be heavy guitar driven. The sound guy and those with in ears being the only people that are able to hear guitars is not a good situation.
Question: was the bass player also running his set up through the same system as the guitars? If not, please give a rundown of what was going on with the bass in that live mix and what the signal was going through.
I love tube amps, but modelers offer a level of convenience that's hard to deny. A lot of the bands in my area switched to modelers (or much smaller, "lunchbox" amps) because actual tube amps are heavy and lugging one around from gig to gig gets old, and God help you if you need to fly to a gig in another country. If I see a band still using tube amps, it's because they're rich enough to afford roadies and techs.
Most people rent gear when flying. Even large acts will rent. Only top acts will bring gear with them. Even then many times since they are so big the production company will have multiple rigs for different regions so they can ship as little as possible.
Thanks for sharing your experience and opinions. I moved to a Mark VII for the option of just moving my head w/o a cab for practices and using the DI IRs, which are phenomenal.
I would certainly practice w/o a cab but not in a gig setting; especially if using acoustic drums. Totally doable though and primarily a matter of preference.
The point about ‘the front row’ is a good one. Doing smaller gig s; weddings, functions and especially pubs I’ve often felt the PA system should be used mainly for vocals and keyboards (if you use them) and then to otherwise ‘augment’ the bands stage sound. I.E Bass drum, smattering of other drums, touch of guitar etc. I do use a modeller but still feel the need for some speaker flap behind me. So use mine though a power amp and Zilla cab.
Gigged with Quad Cortex. Line out (a) to front of house and line out (b) to pocket size solid state amp (d class) to stage cab. Perfect!
This is why I switched to a fender Mustang gtx years ago, & modded it into a head unit.
It sounds great, it’s got XLR for front of house sound, & you can run a speaker from it if you want/need to. Same with the Rumble for bass.
Much love to my NUX MiniStudio. Those kind of tools are really something else
Mainly wanna say that in clip 2 your bassist's tone was really nice.
I could tell a difference but I've been gigging ampless for years. But I was surprised to learn that I had the clips backwards. I suspected the one with less low end rumble (clip 1) would have been the ampless clip.
A lot of my gigging (been out of that game about 5 years now) was a hybrid approach with a Line 6 HD500 and a ZT lunchbox. I’d split the signal with modeling going to foh, and non-amp modeled (but still with effects) going to the little ZT lunchbox (not the junior but the LB02) for on stage monitoring/volume. Worked like a charm. Could have a double gig bag on my back, pedalboard in one hand, duffel bag with the ZT lunchbox/cables in the other hand and load in one trip.
Omg blast from the past - i thought I was the only person who had the Digitech RP50! I'm that old that I got it for my birthday when it first came out! I remember the Periphery guys said the same about the stage volume for the first few rows too!
I've seen a few bands in small venues with really stupid loud backine, and they honestly sounded great. The guitars and bass were balanced from the stage, and the drums were reinforced where needed by the PA.
I'm presently playing a room that seats 3,800 with a 250,000 watt pa...A guitar amp would only cause mix problems... Too loud near me...Not loud enough 100 feet from me...The Helix is great for this!
This was a great video as always, I love modelers for recording but I guessed the modeler correctly when I heard it. I feel as though there is a bit of missing bass when it comes to the modelers. It felt a little stale and lifeless compared to the actual amplifier. Not talking sh*t on the Helix or modelers but I do hear a difference between the two, with that said, I've been playing for 25 years now and I feel I only notice the difference because of years of exposure; when it comes to beginners and nonmusicians, I don't believe they will notice the difference. Great work as always KDH, looking forward to the next video.
Still if you wanted an amp on stage you could still make your rig a whole lot lighter with a modeler. I know Kurt Ballou of converge does a helix floor modeler doing all his effects and preamps into 2 quilters as power amps into 4x12s for his rig. That's a lot of weight shaved off by having quilters and a modeler, instead of 2 tube heads and a full pedalboard.
As an old person, uneducated, unprofessional guitar player, I sold my last amp when the original POD came out (u guys do the math). Lately I've used the cube baby, plugins via laptop (Neural and BIAS), BIAS iOS, and the Helix (just trying to show the different price ranges) and the truth is that, in the mix? No one can tell what's being used. Anyone saying differently, I'd have to humbly call it a lie.
I have the successor to that DigiTech pedal, the rp255 (2012ish) and it sounds phenomenal if you know how to dial in EQ and try different cab sims and gain settings, especially the 77 marshall master volume amp sim.
The difference is MUCH more apparent when there's a band using stacks and the next band goes direct.
When you're comparing from memory it isn't the same.
I saw the same comparison when I saw Dying Fetus at Saint Vitus and the opener [Stabbed] was using 2 6505+/Marshall full stacks and they were so much louder and heavier than Dying Fetus going direct it kinda bummed me out. Really just emphasized for me how important stacks are for the huge death metal tones.
After the first 3-4 songs my brain kinda got used to the direct guitar tone and Dying Fetus sounded super tight... But the guitar was still much, much quieter than the opener. And the volume in the room showed it; I could actually talk to the bartender for a beer without having to yell like I did during Stabbed lol.
Absolutely! The difference is apples and oranges. Even in the same bands where one using guitarist is using a modeller and 4x12 they other using a mesa head and 4x12 and the difference with chalk and cheese. The modeller tone sounded great but once the band started playing, it eas eaten alive by the mesa. Ive seen this over and over again. Bands with amps on the stage with a live tone its just not in the same ball park really
I've seen people complaining on the Line 6 forum that they hear artifacts that they can't dial out, but then go back to their tube amp and notice the same thing for the very first time. There is a 3D quality to real amps that modelers just can't replicate. I've always said for years that modelers sound like the sound is pressed up against a plate of glass. It's like they do the 2D (x + y axis) really well, but there's a depth, or z axis component in real amps (not a lows, mids, and highs thing) with all of the layered artifacts that modelers can't replicate and as a result, just end up compressing those artifacts into the 2D spectrum. It actually has nothing to do with tubes vs solid state. It's the interaction between how the output transformer throws the notes and the interplay with the mechanical action of the speaker cone. That's where all the feel and openness comes from, not from EQ. Modelers will never replicate that, but can get kind of close. The concept in high-end audio is called soundstage. IRs try to replicate the feel with EQ, delays and ambience, but it's never going to feel the same. The sound will always have a fizzle or crackle to it with the modeled artifacts sounding pushed to the forefront.
Happy with the Blackstar AMPED1 (thanks to you!)....
I've used ampless live for many years. Started with an older processor running into a small amp to monitor and when the Firehawk FX came out, I went full ampless. Switched to a POD Go recently and haven't looked back. I still like to have an FRFR at my feet for some bit of stage volume, but that's mainly so I'm hearing my unmodified tone. The PA is hit or miss and I tried no FRFR and just in-ears and hated it. But, like others have said, it's got a lot to do with your sound person. I actually thought the blue clip sounded a bit better, but both clips sounded great to me. God bless and rock on 😎🎸👍
Earlier this year I went to a concert of Belgian metal band Channel Zero. There was a wall of Marshall full stacks on the stage and then I saw someone putting a small black box on the stage and plugging in the cables. That was probably a quad cortex... So when the band started playing, the amps stayed all dark, no lights from the power switches. So to me it was crystal clear that the amps were there just for decoration, not for sound. Yep, completely ampless.
I've got the Digitech big brother , the RP1000 and it's 13 years old and it's still an amazing bit of kit. I use both amps and modellers, depends on the need, the amp often wins just on tweaking a dial ...usually reducing gain down. I had a pal staying in the summer who has headlined Wacken and all the other big festivals playing guitar for Avantasia and is ampless then BUT took a small Headrush FRFR just to get that guitar/speaker interaction in ears don't give(but still has in ears)
It’s nowhere near the same as you guys who are out gigging but as someone who recently got back into VERY amateur guitar playing in my 40s, I’m finding my old Boss GT3 invaluable to give me different tones in a package that suits a busy family home.
About 2 weeks ago I saw Mastodon and Gojira during the Mega Monsters tour. I had the pleasure of meeting and having guitar lessons with Bill Kelliher and asked him about the rig that he was using during that tour. His rig were obviously his guitars, but also a Helix stomp...and that's it, a tiny Helix stomp directly to the PA and his in ears (he used another helix stomp during the lessons) on the other hand, Brent Hinds was using 2 Victory Super Sheriff in stereo through a torpedo captor X directly to the PA, there were no mic'd cabs on stage, just a couple of monitors for each member and I gotta say, during the show both of them sounded absolutely phenomenal and I literally couldn't tell that Bill was using a modeler compared to Brent's amps. I was in the front row, but since the venue was huge and the PA was so damn powerful, stage volume wasn't a problem and I didn't notice a different.
Later that night Gojira took the stage and they were using EVH 5150III with mic'd cabs and I gotta say, Mastodon sounded way better. Maybe the torpedo captor made the difference, but Gojira's mix sounded muffled and less defined, not bad at all, just different. If I could compare it, Mastodon sounded like listening to a CD and Gojira sounded like a used cassette tape.
Personally I'd rather listen to a good CD where I can hear all the instruments clearly. But to me, that was proof that a decent modeler can do the job without any problems (and a good sound engineer obviously).
I still use the RP50 to busk and I love it! I use mostly clean and overdriven tones. Really good battery life, too!
There's many ways to get a sound when gigging these days. I've also seen cheap pedalboard amps, like "Hog Meets Frog" using a Harley Benton GPA-100 live and it sounds great.
I just bought the Fireball 25 with the original gigbag which is very practical for a tube head, now i carry that around all the time, usually a cab is already there to borrow.
Your band sounds dope!
Are you guys coming to Cork at some point?
Been using modellers since the mid 90's, starting with the ROLAND GP-100. Since then I've used POD 2.0, POD HD500X, Firehawk, DigiTech GSP1101, Headrush Pedalboard, Marshall JMD:1, Helix and currently Kemper. I still love real amps, but digital is a great alternative. Also used a couple of rack preamps too. Marshall JMP-1 and Rocktron Voodu Valve. I might get one of those Rocktron's again, awesome piece of kit. Pretty happy with Kemper right now.
Its true for sure, I used my laptop for a gig once, used Neural's Gojira, chaining from Guitar > > Scarlett Solo 2i2 > Marshall 2x12 Cab, sounded great for sure.
Being a tube-nut for years, I had to change my rig entirely when I started developing back/sciatica issues just before covid-19.
Needing to cut down from a Friedman Dirty Shirley/Head and Cab (with a pedalboard and several guitars), I decided to go for the Line 6 Helix in the hopes it would be enough to gig with.
It took a while before I was finally satisfied with my on stage sound, but I eventually learnt how to cut it live with a bit of EQ and trial/error with various FRFR monitor solutions.
Honestly, going digital has been liberating for both recording and live performances as I just take a pedalboard and guitar to gigs now. If I find myself with a dubious back line, i've got a Laney FRFR 112 active cab (which are fantastic by the way) to fall back on as a monitor.
Im also paying less in osteopathic bills now! :D
I have a few low power watt amps. Specifically 2 oranges, a Rocker 15 Terror and a Micro Dark. I also have a 100watt PA amp with speaker jacks and bought a Sonicake Matribox. I primarily use the Matribox by itself, and will use the PA Amp if i am required to use a cab. I havent touched my Oranges in months.
One of the main reasons why I dont like bringing amps to gigs in general, that is often overlooked, is that the smaller amps are MORE LIKELY to be stolen. Sure you can bring a Rockerverb to your gig, but... you would have to bring a rockerverb to your gig. My Oranges are light enough to easily be stolen. My Matribox and pedalboard is small enough to fit in my secret car compartment, and is light enough for me to carry on hand at all times.
I've gigged and recorded with the Behringer TM300 Tube Amp Modeler (25 bucks) - and it sounded amazing every single time.
I’ve been using my HX stomp along with the Blackstar Amped 1 and it’s really difficult to go back to tube amps. I still love my amps but man just bringing a pedalboard is great and way less cables I feel like my sound has improved.
In the same boat as you.
Lugging around a Marshall DSL50 with the matching 4×12 is starting to really get old.
Then I plug into it and curse it some more because I know I will lug it around in the near future because it continues to kick ass. 😂😂
At home practicing, I'm almost always on headphones playing thru an outdated Line 6 HD500X.
I have been on the fence about this for a while. Our last gig was funnily enough in fibbers..😁
Playing fibbers yourself I'm sure you know its a nightmare to get parked. I had to lug my 100watt tube head to and from the car and just thought maybe its time to switch. Its the thought of starting all over again . I have seen some bands use them live and Ill be honest thought it sounded flat or dead if that makes sense but that could just be down to the soundman or pa. Stage volume is obviously a massive thing aswell, I always like the fact I can tweak volume without having to constantly ask the soundman to fiddle with monitors.
I used to tour. Amplifier and pedalboard is just a hassle. I bought a Helix Stomp, and had consistently great tones, no complaints what so ever. It's such a dream when you're doing fly gigs as well. Which I did, a lot.
Hear me out: Could building an amazing one of a kind amp with no cost in mind and create amp sims of that amp be an option for the future? Would be better for the environment as well.
This already happens actually. An over the top example is the Elysia Phil's cascade, a tube signal processor designed specifically to be modeled rather than sold physically
I got this pedal sized amp, Quilter Superblock US, which is fantastic. It is an actual amp head, but at a fraction of the size & it sounds no different than the Fender amps that it's trying to copy. I can DI it, plug in headphones, plug it into a cab, and even attenuate it simply by plugging in a standard 9V pedal power supply. It's legitimately the perfect amp, in my opinion.
I'm a full time musician, doing 20+ gigs a week. I haven't gigged with an amp in 14 years. My backbone is very happy about that, and the only person who cares is a Gibson Les Paul fan at the back of the room
I’m having so much fun wailing through my UA Woodrow 55 into a 2000 watt QSC monitor for any volume high or low. The PA is my amp. I set up in 10 minutes and it sounds and is consistent every night. I have not lugged the BIG rig in months either. It’s the one for me that is actually inspiring to play. Only guitarist would possibly care what I use. At that moment I am onstage and they aren’t and am not caring what they think. 😂
I'll be honest with yall, one of the things I LOVE about big bands that ive seen live playing ampless is that I dont see myself needing ear protection and I feel I can hear every single note being played which makes me enjoyed the concerts more
I have a dedicated wedge monitor and i usually just have guitar in it. Sometimes I mic an amp into it, other times i use a modeller. I even used a boss katana mini into the wedge and it sounded great.
Some guitarists switch from tube amps to modelers, and others return to tube amps after trying modelers. Recently Dave Murray switched to Fractal, but Mark Tremonti, who tried Kemper on stage, got rid of it and returned to tube amps. Steve Vai only uses Fractal for bass on the Hydra. Other musicians use hybrid solutions such as modelers and poweramps, like Vivian Campbell, who always has a 9200 on his rack.
Personally I have 15 tube amps, 4 tube power amps, a bunch of racks preamps and preamp pedals and finally an Hx Stomp XL that I only play on one of my powertubes (usually on my Fryette 2/90/2) and it's not bad for the price of the unit but I tried using it with headphones it was horrible, with an SS power amp it was too sterile and I'm not convinced by using an audio interface with monitor speakers. No monitoring speaker can give me the feeling of a real 4x12
Clip 1 feels alive! Clip 2 sounds like tracking in studio 😊
I immediately knew that Clip 1 was amps because there's just a certain "body" even in the solo sound that tells me, this is what tubes do.
You feel it through the spacial audio and that gave it away. If it was mic'd up, I would not tell the diference but as you said - you do not neccessarily hear the difference in playing, but you certainly feel it. And that may even make you play more motivated when hearing, thats the only real left over benefit for amps.
They make you actually feel the rock.
I think the amp clip sounded better and was immediately noticeable
We've been touring with Helix's since 2020. Can't see us going back to tubes any time soon.
Hx Stomp user here, I don’t gig anymore and use it on my desktop, However I only gigged once this year and brought it with me, went directly to the PA, I totally missed a monitor since the FOH guy was making a lot of changes through the night, but it was ok since people didn’t even noticed, they had a good time which is the important thing.
Great vid! I’d love to hear your take on FRFR cabs. When Ola Englund reviewed the new FRFR cab from Spark, he seemed underwhelmed- saying it sounded more like a large speaker than an amp. He also felt the low end was funny. I agree with that assessment based on the demos I’ve seen and heard. When I posted comments saying that I wished they had built in some sort of EQ into the cab like Bose has done with their FRFR so the tone would be more appealing, some people got all offended like I did t know what I was talking about. They said, “it’s a neutral tone so it’s going to sound like whatever the sim sounds like.” I disagree. I think an EQ would help, but I also have to assume that at its price point, the Spark is using speakers that are not built to handle the low end without flubs. The cab may be neutral leaning, but the hardware/materials they use for the cab shouldn’t sound flubby and like a giant Bluetooth speaker if it’s built with quality components/materials and some EQ knobs built in to tweak things a bit on the hardware side like Bose has accomplished. In fact, what you just said about using PA’s along with side monitors at a gig further illustrates my point that it’s not going to sound like a real amp no matter how good the modeled or simulated tones are - they’re great, but they won’t push air and feel like a roaring amps. Kind of like when people buy a surround sound system but then add a sub woofer.
Anyway, I’d love for someone to tear down one of these Spark cabs to see how they’re designed and what makes them tick. Ola and others with experience in this area would never give something a “meh” rating if it wasn’t warranted. I meant a kid would love that Spark cab, but most adults with ears who play metal, hard rock, punk, and other genres that need a tight bottom end will most certainly hear the difference between the Spark FRFR and a Bose FRFR (or any higher quality brand). I would love for people to learn that each FRFR cab is going to be neutral to a degree and have individual sound characteristics/quality because neutrally tuned speakers from every brand still have slightly different FR’s and each FRFR uses different types/quality of speaker drivers, components, and materials - it’s not simply a matter of the modeled tones being pumped into an FRFR determining how the end result sounds.
Wanna take on that debate/tear down project? 😂😅
I mean... Aren't FRFR speakers supposed to be used with amp modelers? Amp modelers have equalizers, why would you need one in the speaker too?