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NTSB Report B-17G Crash 'Nine-O-Nine' Part II -18 Dec 2020
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- čas přidán 17. 12. 2020
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Most people these days don’t know what a distributor or magneto is. I am very impressed with your presentation. You explained it all perfectly. As an old mechanic myself I watch this with a deep heart knowing it was all preventable. Maybe some of these repairs could have been done to get a car going, but not a 70 year old plane. As much as I love to see them fly, I would rather they stay on the ground unless they are in good working order to factory spec. If the part is not available or can’t be sourced by remanufacture then it shouldn’t fly!
Dan Ferris Sir I agree 100%, I have 40 years exp on these engines and others from top to bottom. WHen I saw those plugs, my heart sank. That aircraft was "NOT" airworthy! All the people who paid good money to have a good safe ride then and in the past were conned into believing that it was in good flyable condition. I'm sure the FAA will change how it allows these old war birds to continue to fly with paying customers. A lot more maintainace oversight for sure! And make it much harder to do these type of flights. WE just can't allow it to go on. I do know Mac had way to much on his plate to be in charge of all of it, Like Juan said. RIP Folks.
A strike strip from a matchbook was how I set the point gap on my distributor when I couldn't fine a feeler gauge. You could clean and set them at the same time.
@@sop2510 Yep, a single layer for the points, and a double layer for the plugs. A matchbook was a well used "tool" back in the day.
Juan is an old school A&P, he gets it.
@@LTVoyager Easy, they're readily available in thousands of places...
Hi there, I used to restore magnetos and there is a lot to it. I did not do many aircraft magnetos but the most important test I did was a soak test. I run the magneto for 8 hours on my test bench. But looking at those mags they are in rough shape. The capacitor is critical and a very special type. Has to be foil wound and have low ESR. (Effective series resistance). The points are platinum iridium and I used to replace the points tip by silver soldering. Platinum iridium alloy was getting very hard to get. The resistances for the coil are about right. 4K on the secondary. The coils were always rewound. Magnet remagnetized. Now a big problem with old magnetos is called polarization. This is where the silicone steel laminations age. It appears like points bounce but on the test machine you can drive through points bounce but not polarization. It makes every other spark fail. On an odd cylinder engine all cylinders would fail because the flux reversal is not common to each cylinder. The insulation on old magnetos degrades and can become conductive with temperature. So insulating components would have to be replaced. I would be happy to pass on my knowledge to anybody interested. I worked mainly on Scintilla magnetos. Those are probably Bendix Magnetos. I also forgot to mention the flight engineer should have done a mag drop test which would tell you both magnetos are working. Looking for an RPM drop when one is turned off, it has to be within limits too much and one mag is faulty, nothing and one mag is not working and on that mag the engine would die completely. The engine has to run well on one mag. I have done double coil magnetos on grand prix racing cars with 4 sets of points. They are fun and lethal. I still have the winding machine and test gaps. akdenyer@gmail.com
Thank you for contributing your knowledge and experience.
Scintilla rings a bell, as my dad navigated B17 Fs in 1943. Then he worked for 25 + years at Bendix "Scintilla" division
in Sidney, NY. A major product there
was various electrical connectors, many likely for military and space.
Mac, the pilot clearly demonstrated his lack of concern about safety by standing on the top step of a ladder as shown on this video.
I personally observed him doing this dangerous practice in Tucson on the 2018 tour. My friend and I offered to hand him up the gallon jugs of oil. He gruffly told us that he did not need any assistance and for us to leave oil alone.
He was not a team player.
That's putting it far too respectfully.
@@charlesfaure1189 He was a MACHO man :( R I P- "WAS"
Sad and sobering video. Thank you Juan. I worked as a Crash Rescue Firefighter at Bradley in the 80's a left traffic pattern would have put them close to mountainous terrain on west side of the field, looks to me like right pattern and turning into his failed engines was his only option but why he didn't declare emergency and land on R33 we'll never know. As a student pilot, crash rescue, wildland, and structural firefighter one thing I've learned and I tell probie's, "check your ego at the door at least you're alive to do the paperwork." Rest In Peace to those who died and strength for their families.
If you declare an emergency, you invite scrutiny. If you can't hold up under scrutiny, you don't declare the emergency.
@@charlesfaure1189 Seems like a huge gamble but why take that risk? Is it complacency?
@@franktbone I think of it as reckless disregard.
It's a case of three strikes and you're out. This 80 year old B17 had all the hallmarks of sketchy maintenance and quick fixes to critical components. This incident highlights the extreme dangers of trying to fly very old aircraft that were never designed to be flying after WW2. Magneto's are sadly often seen as 'oh well there's always the backup magneto' when corners are being cut. They are designed to operate within a series of performance limits and it only takes one magneto component or setting to go wrong to create a poor spark or no spark. The jerry fix with tie wire is maybe the most telling how the whole aircraft was maintained. It all makes for a very strong argument to stop flying aging warbirds which sadly are accidents waiting for a time and place to happen.
+@leokimvideo The Collings Foundation had obtained another B-17 so that "Nine-O-Nine" could go into a deep maintenance schedule, but the accident happened first.
Would it have mattered if that B-17 was manufactured 2 years before the accident? Those problems and lack of proper procedure would bring down any aircraft regardless of age. The easiest thing to do is pick out a number , 80 years, and surmise,’oh, that’s the problem’.
Yes anything can go wrong in a plane for a myriad of reasons..BUT its how you deal with it that matters and the way he dealt with the emergency was a total disaster, gross incompetence. He should have flown it into the deck...if he had the whole darn thing would have been saved.
Cylinder # 9 from engine #3 looks like it spent a lot of time lying on the ocean floor. What a disgrace. I've opened up engines pulled from muddy salvage yards that were not that bad, and they were carrying passengers with this junk! And the magnetos? I'm speechless.
That corrosion would have happened after the crash..Probably from the engine sitting while awaiting post crash examination...
The entire thing is a laundry list of poor decisions non existent maintenance and a complete lack of safety culture, RIP all who died great explanation Juan.
Additionally, who in the FAA knows radial engines in and out where they could even oversee a maintenance program. Another thing is parts availability, followed by how hard it is to get too some of these parts to maintain them. Seen many engines that the mount has to come off the firewall to get those mags off.
@@mauricelackey5324 knowing that mags and carbs are normally at the rear of the engine I was going to ask about accessibility for maintenance, if cars are anything to go by then its find a space and cram it in, if that's the problem then things need to be seriously looked at to make working on then more accessible, it sounds like the air crew were fighting all the way from just after take off, very sad outcome indeed.
@@CrusaderSports250 Making them "more accessible" would require a complete redesign of the 80 year old engine and mounting designs. That is NOT a realistic scenario for any vintage plane.
So it sounds like wet mags weren't a factor. Ground and detonation...wow
Absolutely. Nearly all accidents are a combination of several things going wrong to conclude with a crash.Sometimes pilot wrong decisions, combined with poor maintenance = crash.
Juan: Great summary on this mishap. I've done two Class A's in the USAF and went through the Accident Investigator Course in 1990. Your analysis is spot on.
i dont mean to be off topic but does anybody know a trick to get back into an Instagram account?
I somehow lost my login password. I would love any assistance you can offer me!
@Darren Idris Instablaster :)
@Noel Dakota Thanks so much for your reply. I found the site thru google and Im in the hacking process now.
Seems to take a while so I will get back to you later when my account password hopefully is recovered.
@Noel Dakota It worked and I now got access to my account again. I'm so happy!
Thanks so much you saved my account!
@Darren Idris glad I could help :)
As one who can’t afford subscriptions I want to thank all those who joined Juan’s Patreon account. You’re not just helping him, you’re helping all the rest of us.
You can't afford $5 a month?
@@fishmonger6879Many folks cannot. Some can some months and not others. Count your blessings.
@@silverXnoise I understand.
I've been a passenger several times in Collings' planes. I've been up in two different P-51's; P-40; this same B-17; B-24; B-25, and A-1E. Separate from Collings, I've also been up in Doc, the most recently restored B-29. I'm neither a mechanic nor a pilot, just a warbird fan, and I've spent a lot of $ on all those flights. I always went up, blissful in my (ignorant?) belief that the planes were lovingly maintained by their devoted crews. This crash, and the CZcams debriefs that followed, have really been a splash of cold water. Looking back, I realize the only safety briefing I can recall is being told that "if someone tells you what to do, do it!" and I can see now how deficient that really is. I don't know if I could have popped a hatch under stress or not. I do recall that my first attempt at a B-25 flight was cancelled, and I was told that it had "blown a cylinder" or some such. I finally got up in her a year or two later.
I wholeheartedly agree that these planes need to be safe. But I'll be heartbroken if they all end up grounded and warbird flights come to an end. They are living history, and we should never forget them!
Thank you for taking those flights. Financial support from people like you help make it possible for many others to see those planes. All those old planes have some unavoidable risks due to their age and design. But there is NO excuse for subjecting riders (and crew and spectators) to preventable risk from poor maintenance as well as substandard CRM.
Even when the planes were new, it took an 8 man mechanic crew to keep them going. I'm surprised the control wires and cables still worked. The chief mechanic is the one that allows the plane to fly, not a captain. It was a tough wake up call, all the way around. I'm glad you enjoyed the flights, I never had the chance to take one. I probably wouldn't now.
I have been in flights in the CF's same B-17 in 2015, the B-24 in 2016 and the B-25 in 2018. B-25 flight in 2017 was canceled due to oil leak that was visible. Very interesting experiences. I didn't realize there might be problems like this.
I flew on the 909 and another one of the Collings bombers. I just assumed that with four engines, it couldn't go down. Duh. I loved these planes so much. Its a horrible tragic waste to have the 909 maintained like this.
@dhouse
Lawyers still manage to challenge liability waivers, especially if there is legally provable negligence.
According to the accident report, after finally getting the engines running and prior to the intersection takeoff, the pilot performed NO engine runup . Whiskey, Tango, Foxtrot. I guess nobody (on the flight deck) wanted to challenge the world's highest time B-17 Captain. And that's just BAD cockpit culture.
Moreover we've known the dangers of this for more than forty years.
Hence CRM...
thats bad, I assumed he had and was wondering how the engines had magically performed normally for the runup
Remember the copilot was a commercial jet jockey and not qualified in the B-17, and quite possibly not in any piston aircraft. It is quite possible that he had no idea that the engines should have been run up before takeoff. Knowledge he could have gained by reading the B-17 pilot's manual in an evening.
It isn't mentioned if this was his first ride in the plane, or if he had done this before. If he had done it before he certainly should have known, and at least asked about it, given a balky engine on startup.
Also note the PF retarded engine #4 rather than the copilot doing it on command. This possibly suggests that the copilot might not have known how to do it, or that the PF might not have trusted him to take the correct action on command. (Or it might have just meant that Mac was used to flying the plane pretty much solo.)
@@lwilton someone in the right seat without a type rating or even training is effectively more passenger than pilot.
@@markevans2294 I'm not going to disagree with you. I just finished reading the loadmaster's testimony, and I get the impression that the copilot was very often effectively a passenger on this plane.
Can't believe that maintenance personnel did such a simple mistake. Ignition system is fully accessible and you dont need a special tools to make sure it is in decent condition especially knowing that someone lives depends on. My condolences to all families involved in this accident. Thank you Juan for such extensive report.
Can't believe the pilot had even a drives license let alone a pilots he is the one who killed those people
You nailed it. Too much was dependant on a single person. Even experienced good people need more than one set of eyes on what’s going on with something as complex and critial as an aircraft.
Bad mechanics doing the hands on work.
Kick em in the ass, hard.
They killed people
@@hotrodray6802 If the guy who was working on the plane that morning and standing on the top of a ladder doesn't understand safety! You never do that, it;s on every ladder spelled out! And he;s making sure a engine is safe? SMH!
@@billythekid3234 No kidding right! I was thinking the same thing myself! You have a guy doing a safety inspection who is a safety hazard himself! Geeze!!!
The pilot was too arrogant to have any responsibility other than flying an rc aircraft.
Your explanation of the ignition system was *Excellent* Juan. I would like to add a little about the "condenser". The word is synonymous with "capacitor" and is essentially the same component. These types of condensers are a dry paper type as also used in automotive ignitions of the past. The condenser degrades over time from the paper breaking down. Think of what happens to newspaper over time. All condensers (and capacitors) suffer from internal leakage and gets worse over time. When the leakage gets too high, the "charge" the condenser holds gets weaker and weaker. When I saw the photos of the points/condenser in the mags, I said to myself "the condensers are bad" and sure enough, their leakage test confirmed it. The paper type used is double edged sword. Being a paper type means they are highly subject to moisture absorption, which increases the internal leakage. But the paper type is essential because of the operating temperatures inside the magneto (and distributors in automobiles). An electrolytic (or other "wet" type) would simply fail from temperature extremes. Boil and dry out from heat, or freeze in extreme cold conditions. Paper doesn't suffer from heat or cold extremes since it is dry, and maintains it's micro farad values well making them *very* durable and reliable during their limited lifespan. Although they are sealed, thermal cycling takes it's toll on the seal and allows moisture to "condense" internally. The bottom line is, never hesitate to replace the condenser to maintain the reliability of the ignition system. Look at the points and if they are beginning to develop pitting, the condenser must be replaced. It is a tell-tale sign of failure. The more humid the conditions, the more often the condenser needs replaced. Keep that Mighty single engine airship of yours alive and well Juan!
16:35 Juan, I have been around engines my entire life and up til this very second, could not grasp the intricacies of them. Thus, I've had no interest in engine workings either. If I'd have had you as an instructor when I was 16, my life would have taken a very different course! Right now, I'm feeling very dumb but excited that something that has always been mysterious to me is suddenly understandable!
I've been involved in aviation since my dad obtained an Aeronca Champion when I was 14. I obtained my Second Class Radio Operations License at age 18, one of only 7 women in Canada to do so. I had a non-traditional career as a Flight Service Specialist and Supervisor for 25 years. Travelled all around the High Arctic, met my husband up there, and was fortunate enough to get a senior posting down south so we've lived on the farm since Kidlet was entering school age.
I found your channel through VAS Aviation, today I'm giddy with excitement. Better late than never.
--
Reality check: This is about the tragic loss of a Warbird and human life. My condolences to all affected personally by this accident.
--
Aviation can be a cruel mistress at times.
Welcome aboard Sue!
@@blancolirio The Grim Reaper does not care. If allowed to, The Reaper will take whatever it can. This was PREVENTABLE.
As a mechanic back in the points and condenser era I had a spark plug cleaner and tester very similar to the one shown on my bench. It's just incredible, and criminal in my opinion, that this basic ignition system maintenance wasn't done. This B17 system is very much like the magnetos on the American LaFrance V12 fire truck engine that I helped to maintain in my younger days. I believe there must have been plenty of warning signs of ignition problems, evidently ignored, long before this accident.
Those spark plug cleaner and testers should have been banned.....We used to hook them up to the metal work benches now and again.......Hilarity ensued from everyone except the poor unsuspecting victim....
Like the engines not starting?🫣. Completely ignoring the problem by blowing them out with compressed air to coax them to start. Mack caged that engine like he’d done it many times before😬😬😬🫣🫣🫣. Only need 3 to make money. Just need 4 engines to get off the ground.RIP to those he killed
Great videos Juan! No other channel on CZcams that can match up to you in aviation. Great work, learning a lot!
As an A&P, and former IA for 40 years, this report leaves me shaking my head. What were these people thinking?? Thanks for the report and your excellent explanation of the working of the power plant, mags etc.
What were they thinking? "Keep flying, get those donations, we got four engines so it'll be fine," perhaps. What they weren't thinking was "We have an absolute responsibility to keep our passengers safe."
This situation reminds me of NASA and the apparent go-fever that occurred and ultimately led to the catastrophic failure of the Space Shuttle Challenger. This has also reminded me of the non-stop efforts of the WWII aircraft maintenance crews. To all involved I say God bless every one of them. Thank you for your service. Rest in peace.
Don't forget the shuttle Columbia that disintegrated on re-entry.
2003
These are "Rocket Scientists"???
Talking of NASA I think of the Apollo 1 tragedy. Go fever and the combination of multiple tests into one led to the loss of three astronauts. I highly recommend the BBC podcast "Thirteen minutes to the moon" were all this is explained in detail.
Your reference to the aircraft maintenance crews is a good one. We always talk about the pilots and forget that planes are such complex machines needing the right components and highly skilled maintenance guys.
The way that Mac is using the ladder is the way he did things. "Not a step" on the top step = step. Sad.
When I compare this maintaining my 1972 garden tractor's Briggs cast iron 10hp engine, I have to observe that maintenance here seems to have been grossly lacking. I have let a few things go until engine performance was affected, like the points for example. But I don't fly my tractor. I would have expected far better maintenance of the ignition system on this aircraft than what it appears to have been.
@dhouse The FAA has strong safety regulations that have been developed over decades, covering airlines and general aviation. Following those rules is crucial in achieving maximum practical aircraft safety. However, the FAA specifically created EXEMPTIONS for warbirds, and exemptions have potential consequences.
But if you did fly your tractor 😮
Welcome to our world! First Respect’ to Juan’s superb video series! “Salute”
I’m a life long mechanic and I’ve been into warbirds since I was at lest 5 years old, now with 5 decades behind me. Now to say I know a lot about darn near every thing is a steep Hill in 3’ of snow going up hill both ways to and from school!!
But I’m not an ID10T, Maintenance is Training just as much as crawling into the mud and back out on an Army Obstacle course, back when I was young and fit as a fiddle. Being in Army Maintenance for 11 years of my 20 years of service I still maintain my own vehicles better than most people who I come across... show me someone who believes that washing an engine is dangerous for the ignition and I’ll show you not only a dirty Engine but one that is hiding leaks and lacking Maintenance. Also one that has issues with removing and replacing spark plugs or injectors...
Dirt, road grime, and dust are quick to destroy not only car engines but they are able to destroy Aircraft engines, Helicopter Engines. And I’m still breathing because I’m a jerk about maintenance... ask my Kids they are grateful for the little things that I do.
The Pilot in question seems like that of “A Great Guy “ “Formerly” because he’s Dead now. I’ve met some of his Great Guy Buddy’s in Army Aviation. It’s an interesting and incredibly small world. I remember better the Quiet reserved Guys who did it by the Book because that’s the way you do things, it’s like a Humble Guy who only Says something if it matters. Unfortunately a Big Shot Great Guy was Full of S-t and no one had the Balls to shut him down. When it’s your Job to be A person who takes responsibility then “DO WHAT YOUR JOB IS SAPOSED TO DO!” Say it and Loud!!! You might get “FIRED” but if you are in the Right seat and you didn’t Do your Job, S-t still rolls down Hill, it’s called Gravity but I’m not gonna be the guy in that right seat no matter who you think you are! Great Guys get people killed!
If you are ever faced by someone who comes at you with “Do You Know Who I Am” or “Who I Know “ “I’ll have you fired” that’s the first one who Deserves to be Fired, Ego has no place in any cockpit. At least not in a multi seat cockpit. Let them kill themselves with their Prideful way. You are not gonna go far with A Great Guy! But you sure can Fall a long way down.
Lack of Crew Coordination, that’s P.C. For (Pilot is a hot tempered SOB, Who Lacks, Social Skills, Humility, and has a high tendency for being a narcissistic person)
Great Job again Juan!!!
Oh yeah I’m An NCO, I lost my P.C. Filter somehow back in Ft Leonard-Wood about 1987... never went back out to the bivouac site to find it!
@dhouse Thank You Brother from another Mother!
Thank you for your insight, Juan. Retired USAF armament/acft maint Chief here, who appreciates your detailed commentary, as well as your empathy.
That engine wasn’t poorly maintained. It just WAS NOT maintained. Someone just pencil ✏️ whipped it on the checklist.
How the hell do you miss aircraft engine parts tied with baling wire?
I wouldn't do that to my own car.
That's just in your face criminal negligence.
People died as a result, not acceptable
I would think that not initially being able to start #3 and #4 should have been clues that something else was amiss besides moisture in the magnetos.
Wonder why the various issues found in the autopsies of the engines were not found earlier.
There are times where maybe one should not have gone flying..
@@alantoon5708
Ya, especially when it involves paying customers.
Aren't you supposed to bench test an engine after it's been overhauled?
@@alantoon5708 I believe there are Ammeters which shows power through each magneto, on the engineer's panel. Huh? Magneto drop is a classic "no-go" for a piston plane.
the pilot standing on the top platform of a ladder - very poor judgment with ladder use - same poor judgment as a pilot and maintenance?
Agreed. I see poor safety culture within the foundation. Not showing customers emergency exits and poor working seat belts further shows poor safety culture.
@@shack7296 i don't know how many times i hear "oh he was a very capable - experienced and knowledgeable pilot" always said after they are dead after an accident where they are at fault? you are only as good as your ability to do the right thing always - never let your guard down and never rush or not follow proper procedures - period.
@@foxmoth5477 Absolutely. Character matters.
Great safety brief Juan. It's worth the effort to make the living history program better. I hope there can be a remedy satisfactory to the FAA to preserve these programs. Let's show them, we as a community can make the necessary changes and continue better and safer than we did before. It's all about the history of the sacrifices made for this country.
that was very disturbing when Juan said as when i and my dad went on a pleasure flight on a classic wings DH-89 Dragon Rapide years ago
they told us how to use the seat belts and how to get out of the aircraft in case of an emergency
This is one of the saddest videos I've ever watched.
I'm old enough to be from the points, condenser, coil era.
I maintained my junker car and motorcycle ignition systems better than done on the B17.
Agreed...I used a dwell meter on my cars in the day just because I hated to "guess" that feeler gauges were being most accurate. GM engines had an access door on the distributor cap that could be used with an allen/hex wrench to adj the point gap, they were a real convenience as you could run the engine and adj the gap (dwell) down to the finest net measurement.
@@Garth2011 I got way too familiar with the GM ignition system when I got a brand new 62 Corvette. Burning a qt of oil every 300 miles meant pulling the plugs almost every week. I bought one of the plug cleaning machines like shown in this video. The dual point distributor also burned points very quickly. The problem was a defective block casting. GM refused to replace it. I turned wrenches on heavy trucks and earthmoving for quite a few years. I would have been fired if I did what I see in this video.
@@Garth2011
Yes the Delco window distributor, if you had a car with that, you were the envy of your FoMoCo and Mopar friends, with the handy flex handle allen adjustment tool and the dwell meter!
@@Garth2011 on an aircraft engine, there is no such thing as timing adjustments on a running engine. As if you are going to stand on that ladder at the magnetos while the prop is swinging and play with your dwell meter and adjusting tool...
The point gap is by feeler gauge on an aircraft magneto, period. The mag to engine timing is by primary circuit continuity, normally simply a light, to a protractor graph on the prop or spinner to gauge crank position.
@@davidvicari5139 Thanks for reminding me this is an aircraft with a prop. I don't see where I said that should be performed on this 9 cylinder radial engine however, it would be something a real mechanic would do on a distributor machine. They'd remove the magneto from the engine and overhaul the mag and set it up on a machine that tests all of the electrical and adjustments. Not many of those around these days but they used them before electronic ignition. It's an option to using feeler gauges and it's very likely even the sour mechanics who worked on these magnetos would know not to run the engine. I can't say enough how poor those mags look. Ask any top fuel mechanic about magnetos, they use them too.
More terrific detail. The system of management, even in volunteer 'classic' flying organizationizations, is critical.
Ole hotrod trick,pull the ignition timing forward until the engine starts to "ping" then back it off a bit.I am surprised they could reach a good manifold pressure at full power with serious detonation happening.Great video Juan.
I must say that if I hadn't had the experience of replacing/gapping my own plugs and timing my engine of my 1971 MG Midget, this entire explanation would have gone way over my head. In fact I did most of my maintenance on my cars until they got that computer and I gave up. Thanks for putting this together...very very clean. You're the best.
Harrison Gould , the more comments I read, the more I see from guys that understand that when you only have 1-2-4 cylinders, and just one ignition system, your engine doesn't run if looks like these. The airplane guys never see this stuff because airplanes are generally maintained in a state that prevents anything ever getting this bad.
In A&P mechanic school, 100 RPM loss is what were trained to look for when doing mag checks during engine runs.
And if they had done the mag checks required in the pre departure engine run up the engine would have died when the working mag was cut . they had this experience and mis identified it as moisture blow out and did not retest switching off one mag at a time.
I'm a retired A&P/IA with a private SEL. It was not uncommon perhaps it was even common for owners and A&Ps to push ignition systems to far. A good overhaul is a firewall forward. Another type just cleans up the case, cylinders, and prop. The former is rare and the later is common. They pushed hoses to long as well. I was the DOM for 3 part 135 ops. I sat with FAA a dozen times, half when I went to the FISDO. They were little impact, but competent I'd say. Not dummies at all. The Seattle FISDO (Renton) used to be pretty good to work with. But they don't look at the airplanes unless the paper work is screwed up or it wrecks. There was a lot of junk flying around.
A pilot explaining detonation as well as any I've heard. Good job.
Excellent report!! So glad you take the time to make these uploads to keep those of us who love these old planes informed of what's happening. We greatly appreciate it. A lot of us are broken-hearted over the loss of this old girl.
This guy was a cobbler,that magneto Gerry rig with a peice of clothes hanger is enough to keep me off of planes forever. Maintenance is key
Wow, the mags were in horrible shape. A high school shop student would do a better job on a lawnmower engine.
eh... no i did a terrible job on my lawn mower engine when i was in highschool lol
@@mach533x i was never a good small engine guy myself...
Even lawn mowers are solid state ignition these days.
The mage were a little grimy but that one rusted out piston and cylinder? How could you get that way in a 300 hr motor and not know it?
They should have been borescoping at every inspection when they pulled the plugs.
@@JollyMcStanson and most highschools don't have shop now 😉
Such a loss. This incident just crushed my heart. These old war birds are almost gone from the air.
You get it. I think, and I know there are many others that are ready to toss in the towel and ground them all. A heritage bird should not belong to an individual, but to the nation. Park them. What we had as a barnstorming operation sanctioned by the FAA but told to do their own thing (via no supervision). The rides became means to revenue, not precious souls to be protected by the highest safety standards. Aviation history is filled with tragic examples of shoe string operations stretched beyond limits.
It was a good presentation, Juan, but you whiffed. Maintenance had nothing to do with this crash. To make a difference to future pilots, one needs to point to the obvious. That bird should never have taken off with the engines in the condition they were in, says Captain Obvious, and that condition should have been known by the crew.
Ground them all. At least "de-monetize" them, (your favorite term). And lets not forget the foundation. Allowing an operation that is set up to fail is negligent at best. Then there's the FAA, which deserves major sanctioning for wandering off in the deep and granting these waivers. This same agency, under which, for better or worse, has guided the airlines to a fantastic safety record?
loss
@@olbuck : You are absolutely correct. As old as these warbirds are, it’s time for them to occupy static museums. However, I love seeing these treasured aircraft in the air. Maybe the could build replicas with modern FAA rules included?
@@olbuck They just need PROPER oversight by the FAA. That means the same inspections, actual oversight, as any other airline that wants to carry passengers. I personally would support a program that places the costs of oversight on the FAA, as long as an operator is responsible and compliant. Personally I'd like to see some type of "national heritage fund", in support of this nations historic ships and aircraft. You kind of see some of the same situations with lack of funding for the nation's historic ships
@@olbuck so grounding is the only way to enforce proper (i.e. no) maintenance? I call bullshit. Just weed out the bad ones and properly enforce relevant rules to the other organisations.
Your concluding remarks are spot on! Mac was the pilot and Director of Maintenance. There was no oversight from within Collings nor was the FAA providing any meaningful oversight. Lack of CRM and external oversight over training are likely to be contributing causes to this tragedy. Sadly, the insurance industry has already cast their vote - premiums for warbirds, and particularly warbirds used for rides, have skyrocketed since this accident. Regardless of what the FAA does, the insurance industry has already priced the LHFE out of business. What's particularly sad is this: Collings Foundation has a BUNCH of warbirds. They could have very easily chosen to have a few less warbirds and spend the resulting savings on better maintenance and oversight.
I spoke to Mac, on the ground, at Bangor ME about 15 yrs ago after taking a tour of Nine O Nine. It was clear that the man loved this airplane and loved flying it and caring for it. I am 73, and have worked in building construction for 45 years, and still do today. Even though I still work it is clear in my mind that both my physical and mental skills are NOT what they were 35 yrs ago. Mac had the highest time of any B-17 pilot on the planet, a magnificent record for sure. Yet his continuing to fly the aircraft, with paying passengers completely in the dark as to the unnecessary risk they were taking, was unconscionable. The gumped up magnetos alone should have grounded the aircraft. That they had to blow moisture out of a magneto (numerous times, almost daily sometimes) should have absolutely grounded the aircraft until repaired. Detonation can be caused by several things including incorrect timing (too far advanced) incorrect mixture and excessive heat. I experienced this first hand in small block Chevrolet racing engines as a young man. The detonation should have been detected immediately by looking at the spark plugs. But you have to pull them regularly in order to read them, not just when the engine will no longer run. With radial engines, and even in your Cessna 150 it is a normal requirement, just before flight, to run up the engines and check both mags, by shutting off one then the other, and noting the rpm drop each time. This preflight check was obviously NOT done on Nine O Nine that day, or the more likely scenario, was just ignored.
I still think it within the realm of possibility that the wrong engine was shut down. In commercial flying this has happened more times than you would think, even in turbine aircraft. They were at extremely low altitude and low airspeed and had little time to think. The pilot shut down number Four evidently WITHOUT trying to ascertain in any way from instruments or observation by the copilot who could look out his window. Number 3 shows major detonation which shortly would have destroyed the engine. It had to have been running very poorly in order to have as much damage as shown in the photos. I have been working on gas engines all my adult life and have seen the damage this can do first hand. We may never know this answer for sure but I would in no way rule it out. Perhaps the final NTSB report may have more on this based on what happened in the cockpit in that short time available.
At the time of this crash I looked at Collings Facebook page on Nine O Nine. The youngsters were constantly begging for money needed to procure a spare engine for the aircraft. They should have been seeking donations of money to acquire (or rebuild) the magnetos on those two engines. I cannot believe that someone operating an aircraft like this, in the way they did, would not have had a spare magneto available to them when needed. In hindsight some totally appalling decisions led to this disaster. The whole warbird community, and those of us who love them, will pay for this obvious neglect, sadly.
Enjoyed the explanation of points, condensers, etc. took me back 50 years to my time at automotive trade school. Subsequently, when I was a tech at a GM dealership I briefly worked with a couple of ex-airplane techs and was impressed with their concern for safety in carrying out repairs. Doesn’t look like these guys had the same level of concern.
Like it was said in my day. It is a perfect example of an accident looking for a place to happen .
The fact that they had to blow the condensation out of magnetos on two adjacent engines just to start should have been a red flag. With both mags hot, any engine with enough compression should start even if one mag is sketchy. They violated the redundancy of the ignition systems. The reason there wasn't a discernable drop in RPM when doing the mag check (1 mag vs. both) is one mag was basically dead.
Wouldn't the engine die when you dropped out the good mag if the other one was dead?
@@Bitterrootbackroads Yes. Even with brand-new magnetos, whenever you switch from "Both" to "Left" or "Right," you'll get a drop in RPM. The manual will specify RPM ranges that are acceptable, and drops that are greater than acceptable indicate a bad magneto. However, if you have one magneto totally dead, whenever you switch to it alone, the engine will kill, because there will be no spark.
This leads me to believe there was no magneto check performed, assuming a run-up was done at all. It seems certain of the surviving passengers reported that no engine run-up was performed.
@@don_5283 I'm seriously wondering about possible confusion in the use of the term "run up". Are they talking about a full-power run up of all 4 engines that was traditional for any WW II aircraft on first of day takeoff, or are they talking about run ups of the individual engines, which is generally when a mag check would be done?
I wasn't there, but I can't conceive of any piston engine pilot that wouldn't have done a mag check before takeoff. I suspect that the individual engines were warmed up and run up to 1200 or whatever the specified RPM is and mag checks done. I also suspect that a full power simultaneous run up was not done.
I also find it somewhat difficult to believe that anyone would have taken off on a paying passenger flight with one mag dead on one or more engines. This makes me think that both mags were working on #4 before takeoff, though maybe poorly. Did that pulled primary lead happen in flight, or only from the crash deceleration forces when the engine tore off? I don't think we can be sure of that answer. I wonder if they found the ignition switches in any shape that could have been examined.
@@Bitterrootbackroads It would IF that's what the pilot did. If he went good mag-both mags- good mag, it wouldn't change. Keep in mind this flight had already been delayed, and there may have been pressure to get it off the ground. Refunds=loss of revenue
No mag check performed.
If the Collings Foundation can't maintain their aircraft, that's it, they should cease operations. Seven deaths is not an acceptable part of doing business.
Perhaps they should consider sending their remaining aircraft to another group like the CAF
If the FAA doesn't do it, the insurance costs will. That is if they can even find a willing insurance company.
They're out of business
No insurance company will touch em after the lawsuits are settled.
@@BELCAN57 The CAF is so big and well funded they have their own mechanics who are experts in old planes.
I agree but will state it this way. I see it as one death is not acceptable.
Great review and analysis. I’m an aviation photographer had an the opportunity to shoot Nine-O-Nine when it was in Ramona California on tour in 2018. My sympathies to the deceased and their families.
This and Kee Bird are just maddening It’s hard to watch but in the 25 years since Kee Bird I would hope lessons are learned
I watch the Kee Bird vid now and then. Does make one want to cry. Hooking up a hard gas line to an APU, sans flex hose or coupling, will do that.
I remember as a kid watching the key bird I was so mad about that too never understood why they didn't do the right thing with that fuel line
I thought they just forgot to turn it off and then their shoddy fix combined with a running motor started the fire🔥
Nostalgia and patriotism doesn't keep aircraft healthy. Diligence does.
T: And wheel barrows of money (that doesn't exist).
Closed gap points causes significant retardation of the timing timing and decrease of available spark energy especially when under significant load. Dwell is too large (degree of rotation the points are closed)
Detonation is like a sledge hammer hitting the piston (ping = explosion) same as a diesel knock. Pistons like to be pushed with a progressive expansion vs explosion. Pinging focuses damaging forces and heat destroying the effected cylinders in short order. Expansion allows maximum developed power and internal temperature management by design.
Sorry, but ignition retards as points wear closed.
And a radial engine will self-destruct in seconds when significant detonation occurs.
Since the cam was worn they had a whole set of problems. If you adjusted the points to spec. then there would not be enough dwell. I'm not sure I ever let my old truck's distributors get as bad as those mag's looked.
@@davidhoekje7842 Agree. Correct adjustment of worn parts is impossible, which is why they must be replaced. None of my cars ever had plugs that looked like that.
based on the Data available noways the old classical theory about Detonation which was taught and comes out of textbooks turned out to be wrong and does not gives the correct picture what detonation is all about.
More accurate picture about the Phenomena is in Mike Busch Video "How To Destroy Your Engine in One Minute"
czcams.com/video/bZLxcWAk9Nc/video.html
Thanks Juan. Looks like a little bit of proper maintenance could have possibly avoided this tragedy. I would like to wish you and your family a Merry Christmas. Stay safe.
Juan You have presented a wonderful very detailed report of this crash, AS USUAL you have knocked it out of the park.
Initial start up of engines 3 and 4 and the attendant difficulties seem to bear out ignition issues. Mag checks during engine run up should have given some indication of problems as well, I would think. Regarding the shutdown of #4 engine, as long as it was producing thrust the shutdown during a critical phase of flight seems potentially premature.
The potential risk of the engine outright catastrophically failing is too great. The shutdown of #4 was the proper course of action.
@@JeffCounsil-rp4qv Perhaps it's unfair to judge at this point, but the whole scenario just seems too rushed... putting the gear down so soon, for instance. Without a Cockpit Voice Recorder we don't know how much coordination between crewmembers occurred, but I get the feeling that it became a one-man show with disastrous consequences.
@@comlbbeau True, but time was of the essence. And remember the copilot was NOT qualified for the B-17 and could have been doing things without understanding why the pilot did, or didn't do certain things. The pilot had to be a "one-man show" out of necessity because of the current situation he was in. The pilot *may* have had to try and counteract, or made corrections for what the copilot *may* have done adding to the complexity of the situation needlessly. Falling short of the runway could be quite possibly because the copilot did something to cause accelerated or premature altitude loss. If they had landed on the runway, they would have been past the buildings they hit. Then the situation would have been a lot different and possibly could have ended without such serious damage. At this point, it is all speculation. We could easily say that if the mags had been properly maintained, this would have never happened. But since there were problems, the situation dramatically changed and devolved into an emergency situation. I do firmly believe the pilot could have successfully landed. But was the pilot fighting an uphill battle complicated by the copilot? Hmmm, the possibilities...
@@JeffCounsil-rp4qv The aircraft was at very low altitude and low airspeed. There was virtually NO altitude to trade for airspeed. At 7,000 ft this could have gone a lot better with time to think. From the videos and what info can be gleaned it seemed that the pilot shut down #4 without doing anything to make sure it was the bad engine. They had trouble starting it so he may have been of the mindset that #4 HAD to be the bad engine. There is no info about checking the engine instruments or having the copilot look to see if he could discern which engine was the problem. In fairness to the piiot he had precious little time to either think or act. He had engine failure at about the worst place in a a flight that you could have it, close to the ground at low speed. He did an incredible job of making a flat 180 turn without stalling it. The internals on #3 look far worse after tear down than they looked on #4. The pilot was the only man in that cockpit that truly understood the airplane. So he did not have the kind of help with the thinking that might have been the case with a more experienced crew. We will likely never know for sure exactly what happened.
@@nathanpitts1591 Agreed... The #3 was definitely in the worst mechanical condition of the two. But that wasn't known or realized until after the fact. Especially when it comes to the time/hours after the last rebuild. If only he could have made the runway itself without landing short, the result would have been a LOT different. He would likely have kept it straight and not hit anything. It was such a sad chain of events where one single event, or decision (with or without hesitation) could have made all the difference.
Thanks for such an interesting part 1 and 2. I was totally blown away by how easy it was explained. Well done. From Australia.
Thank you for not deleting your videos. I like your videos can be gone back to and additional learning can be extracted from the videos at a later time that better aligns with experiences we may experience on our own. A combination of videos like this and experiences we may have on our own can make us better pilots, mechanics, and operators. Thank you Juan for all of your work
Excellent reporting Juan. Google has a lot of gall de-monetizing your content, because they sure don’t skimp on placing ads throughout your presentation.
I lost my Dad to bad engine maintenance - loose exhaust clamp and leaking fuel line = explosion at 17k ft agl - google B50 Long Ranger
MigsTwo: My condolences; must have been horrible knowing someone’s sloppiness caused your loss. I read about the accident, and found a crew list. Which one was your Dad, if you don’t mind my asking?
@@paulmanning8757 I'm gonna guess Lt/ Col. Harold Mignola. My deep condolences to MigsTwo.
@@wintercomesearly That's correct - I was only 13 mos old at the time - still hurts though
@@leeharold8337 Your father’s service is not forgotten. God bless you and your family, sir.
I’m almost 70 years, and when I was in my 20s I earned a living tuning up automobiles with these points and condenser ignitions. Regarding #3 engine, which had all that detonation, remember: change in point gap changes the ignition timing. Wear on the cam and follower reduces that gap. I’ll bet the plugs were looked at occasionally, but no attention was paid to the points. You need a good tach dwell meter to measure the dwell, or point setting, and then you need to time the mag (or distributor) to the engine again after even touching the mag or the points. They ‘Mickey moused’ that engine along and they paid with the destruction of a vintage aircraft. I hope these people are still alive so that none of these people ever flies or turns a wrench again.
@Rodneythor Sounds like you may have had some time with a Sun Machine.
Sadly, I think both pilots died in the crash.
Yes I had time with a Sun machine too. In our era any good mechanic could pull the plugs and read them like the bible. The color alone would have shown problems. I know from first hand experience how quickly detonation can burn a piston and destroy an engine. #3 would not have run much longer, in fact I think it within the realm of possibility to have been the "bad" engine to start with and #4 was shut down without trying to verify that by instruments or co-pilot observation. In military usage of these engines the plugs were pulled after every mission as a regular procedure. The lack of adequate maintenance was appalling and directly the cause of this disaster!
I have been maintaining a 1957 Cessna 172, with the original 0-300A 6 cylinder Continental, under the supervision of my AP/IA. I have done my share of old car point and condenser tune ups, with a timing light and dwell meter. You should be aware there are some differences with aircraft magnetos.
There is no such thing as ignition or carburetor adjustments while an aircraft engine is running, so a “dwell meter” is never used. Point gap in the primary ignition circuit must be carefully checked and cam lobes and follower assessed for condition. The condenser works just the same as in an automobile, except it costs $40. Spark plugs are $30, times 2 per cylinder= $360 for a set of plugs. That is why the cleaning equipment Juan shows is popular with mechanics. If cost were no object, or time is valuable, new plugs are great!
Unlike cars, aircraft magnetos have no advance mechanism vacuum or centrifugal. The basic timing on my plane is one magneto 26 degrees BTDC, the other 28 degrees. There is a mechanism called an impulse coupling the gives a shot of retarded spark as the engine turns over, to aid starting, that is quickly retracted once the engine fires. Otherwise, the characteristics of aircraft operation, normally some steady percentage of full power, usually 2000 to2400 rpm, lends itself tone variable spark timing to be desired.
Also, VERY important as shown is the proper condition of the p lead, which a car distributor does not have.
The magneto is a self contained spark machine with internal coil. For safety it is considered to be “ hot” all the time when anywhere near a propeller. The p lead grounds and disables the mag through the car style ignition switch in the cockpit. Alsoimportant, that switch will have OFF, LEFT, RIGHT, and BOTH positions, which must be verified for correct wiring.
Great video and excellent explanations on B-17 magneto operation and ignition systems. If I remember correctly, the magneto to engine timing is set on a Wright R1820 aircraft engine by a Vernier coupling. To set the magneto to engine timing on a R1820 radial engine, you have to continually rotate the Vernier coupling with the magneto removed from the engine and then reinstall the magneto insuring the magneto engages into the Vernier coupling each time and check it with a magneto to engine timing light provided the mechanic has determined the exact crankshaft position or they use a Timerite tool to determine top dead center. If the timing is off just a little bit, you have to remove the magneto again, rotate the Vernier coupling again to reset engine to magneto timing, then reinstall the magneto and recheck engine to magneto timing and keep repeating this process until the timing is set correctly. If the magnetos Vernier couplings on this B-17 were deteriorated to the point where neither one magneto can no longer can hold their set position, it can indeed cause the magneto to engine timing to advance, thus causing a weaker spark from the magnetos. I seriously doubt, because of the accident, if it can be determined what exactly the magneto to engine timing was set at before the crash. Finding safety wire to hold spark plug leads together is a major no no. Its pretty obvious that the Collings Foundation had failed to follow their own Maintenance Protocols that were approved by the FAA, which is why they lost their exemption and can no longer fly their remaining aircraft to events. The sad part of it all is that this accident could have been prevented if only better maintenance practices had been put in place instead of having only one guy at the top. When working on any warbird of this complexity, you need a team of mechanics working together where you have more eyes and ears to check and double check things and each others work.
In 2012, a replica of HMS Bounty sank in hurricane Sandy. Fortunately fourteen of the sixteen member crew survived due to the heroic effort of the US Coast Guard.
Why was she trying to sail in a hurricane? Because she was trying to reach an event that would provide some revenue to shore up her very shaky finances. During the storm, the fuel filters clogged up and the pumps failed. Why did the fuel filters clog up? Because they were the wrong fuel filters and the ship could not afford to replace them with the correct fuel filters.
Bounty's skipper, who was lost in the sinking, was a very experienced captain with a strong dedication to his ship. Many of his crew were knowledgeable and experienced and well accustomed to improvising ingenious maintenance solutions to keep the aging ship going with the barest minimum of funds.
Sounding familiar?
I remember that incident. Very similar, and very sad.
The Bounty was unfit to go to sea in any weather. She had been hauled in a Maine shipyard that summer and plywood and tar had been applied over the planking to try and stem the leaks. The captain had years at sea but learned little from it He told the crew they were going to sail through the hurricane and anyone who wanted to leave the ship could....none did. Most of the crew lacked experience and knowledge. The bilges had never been cleaned so all the trash fouled the pumps when needed. The chief engineer was trying to change fuel filters on the John Deere diesels as they kept stopping. He was unfamiliar with the procedure and had the wrong parts.
The captain had an ego larger than his ship, The owner wanted the ship down south where it could make some money. Sound familiar?
Only a magnificent effort by the USCG in conditions in which nothing should have been flying kept the death toll from being higher. The crew of a C-130 were fighting air sickness as they were tossed around in the violent winds while trying to keep the scene on their radar to direct the effort. CG rescue swimmers went into 40-50 ft seas to save the crew. Words can't describe their magnificent efforts that night. The captain and owner were richly condemned by the Coast Guard investigation....and rightfully so. The ship should never have been in the water.....period.
I rarely comment as the subscriber base has many people far better versed in aviation matters than myself. I'd just like to thank you for breaking things down into simpler explanations which can be easily digested by us lesser mortals. Still consider this to be one of the best channels on the Tube.
Astounding the lack of understanding and maintenance of the ignition system .
I wanted to take a ride in this g model b17.
My Uncle Gene Friedman flew in the 8th air Force and was shot down in a B 17 over France and spent the rest of the war in moosburg prison. He was the bombardier of the Mary Frances.
The nose art on this B-17 g model was an native American with the name SEQUATEHIEE.
It is troubling to hear of the tragic loss of those people on that aircraft and the many who flew in danger before them.
Thank you Juan for such a good examination of the accident and information.
Being an aircraft mechanic myself this was an excellent informative explanation of what went wrong. You are absolutely correct in the fact that everything needs to be checked and rechecked by someone other than the person doing the task. We all are prone to overlooking something. Thanks for sharing your knowledge and videos. Much appreciated 👍🇺🇸
How would you rate the condition of the engines/ignition system? Honestly I wouldn't drive a car with engine in this condition. They must have had issues on previous flights. Tragic.
I really don’t like critiquing another mechanics work but my personal standards for workmanship are much much higher than what I see here. There was no way this was going to end good. This was an accident waiting to happen and everyone who worked on it from the pilot on down is in someway accountable for the results. Tragic
That is the worst fouling of a spark plug that I've ever seen in my life. While I've never been a professional mechanic I've always worked on my own cars. Until the Advent of platinum plugs, I always cleaned and GAP my plugs myself on a regular basis. More often when we had to leaded fuel. My father taught me how to clean the plugs and GAP them when I was a kid. He had a lot of experience with radial engines when he was in the grant, Stuart and Sherman tanks. Back then Crews did a lot of their own maintenance. I thank God in the shed I still have a page out of a magazine that actually shows the different colors that a spark plug can be and what it means. I can't imagine how this can happen with proper maintenance routine established. I can understand why the FAA revoked their operations permit. At the same time the FAA needs to shoulder a big piece of the responsibilities due to the lack of oversight out of Orlando. That's unacceptable by the FAA. That in and of itself should be investigated thoroughly. I wonder if anyone will bear the responsibility of the FAA says failure to supervise the Collins Foundation.
I hope the NTSB investigates the extent of written policies at the FAA for monitoring the historic exemption aircraft and if they weren't followed, whether this was due to incompetence, laziness, bad morale, etc in the office or lack of adequate staffing for the workload. This could turn out to be like a child abuse death and people wanting to blame the case worker assigned 100 children to assess and document on regularly.
The spark plugs will tell you so much if you know how to read them. I have a chart as well, but are also in my memory. Most manuals back in the day also had the charts and explanations of each condition.
@John Rodrigues . When I was a kid in the ‘60’s, I remember an old-timer showing me a massive radial aero engine. I remember him saying that each morning they had to remove the spark plugs from the bottom cylinders as crankcase oil would drain past the rings over-night fouling the plugs. So they would remove, clean the plugs and replace them each morning. Seeing the photos of the oiled-up spark plugs brought his words to back to my mind.
@@axelknutt5065 The leak down is pretty significant. If you watch old videos you will notice ground crew turning the props by hand slowly. This allowed the oil to drain out. The residual oil is why radials also blew out oily exhaust smoke at startup. It was entirely possible to hydrolock the engine with oil if it sat too long.
Good points.
These days it only takes a second to snap a digital photo of the used spark plugs and create a nice maintenance record (on top of the FAA requirements). In a priceless plane this should be done frequently and the output matched up to weather conditions, etc. to understand how the engine is performing. Every Nascar team does this. Jack Rousch was famous for his jewelers loop monitoring of his engines by reading the plugs.
Detonation is easily detectable in this way, as are many other "tuning" problems.
Replacing the plugs frequently is OK, but can hide larger problems if the used plugs are discarded without analysis.
The lead pilot / mechanic standing on the pail step of the step ladder is disturbing. Top step is bad enough, pail step is worse. Something like that is indicative of a very poor safety culture. Eventually Russian roulette catches up with you.
You nailed it..
Excellent point. That does indicate the type of culture in an organization.
Yep. When you do that alone, you're a fool. When you take other people onto a "pail step" with you and burn them alive in an airplane, you're a killer. Poor safety culture indeed.
Owning a ladder tall enough to reach the top spark plugs probably would have helped
Insightful observation @Up Level - the seemingly innocuous but inherently dangerous practice with the ladder turned out to be just the tip of an iceberg's worth of appalling safety lapses. The first doesn't necessarily guarantee the second...but the second can sure explain the first... I'm sure no one here takes pleasure in the told ya sos though.
I was very fortunate to fly on Nine-O-Nine a few years ago and I personally meet Mac on the plane and later while I photographed my 32 Roadster in front of it after the flight. He loved the old Ford Flathead engine and btw it has a Mag and they are very reliable even after a decade of use! Wish I could share a few photos with blancolirio and others.
High Noon
Studio 63
Problem is I don't think they're babying these remaining aircraft anymore - their need (or desire) for funding has changed the dynamic from "preserve the aircraft at all costs, so we can keep it in flyable condition" to "keep the aircraft flying tourists at all costs, so we can afford to preserve the aircraft at all".
Once money and ticket sales get involved in something like this, things get complicated FAST. I submit that their entire operational ethos was flawed and this transmitted into the attitude of the mechanics and (most importantly) the engineering supervisors. "Gotta Fly Syndrome" kills people and aircraft all the time when they should have bitten the bullet and stayed on the ground.
Your comment does a better job of stating what I had intended to post. Thank you!
I guess I am emotionally invested in this whole situation. I flew out of Nashua NH in the 909 in 2000. Mac was the pilot. A couple of years later, I flew the Collings Foundation Stearman with Mac. The Sunday before the crash, my sons and I were standing under the wing of the 909, as we had done pretty much every year prior.
The business model of these flights is fatally flawed, to paraphrase your comment. I can't come up with a solution either. It's tempting to think that government subsidies could help, and they might, if government didn't screw up everything it gets involved in.
I'm kind of all over the place, so please forgive me.
When I was a teenager, I had a summer job at the local Pepsi plant, where my father was the maintenance supervisor. I was loading trucks at night and parking them. One night, I was parking a truck used by a "driving salesman". It had practically no brakes. This "driving salesman's" job was to carry a wide assortment of product to the more remote retailers in the area, and sell them what they needed. In his mind, if he wasn't on the road, he wasn't making money... thus, he avoided letting my dad know the brakes were out of adjustment. I made an executive decision that night, and took the key for that truck home with me. I got home at 3 a.m. and left the key and a note telling my dad what was going on. The driver wasn't too happy with me, as his ass got royally chewed. He yelled at me the next time he saw me... 17 year old me told him if money meant more that lives to him, he was a piece of excrement...
I wish I could've grabbed the key for the 909.
You nailed it. Thank the universe for individuals such as Kermit Weeks, who not only has the resolve to properly conserve aviation history, but also the means to do so and do it right. Just to put vintage aircraft operating costs into proper prospective, Lufthansa spent $163 million dollars restoring their 1958 Lockheed Constellation Starliner, only to pull the plug on the project after 10 years of restoration. They were nearly finished, but somewhere the numbers didn't add up for the future of the project. I'm sure it would have been their crown jewel, but even they decided to throw in the towel. Pretty sad, actually.
robbreport.com/motors/aviation/classic-airliners-163-million-restoration-different-fates-2920448/
czcams.com/users/KermitWeeksBlogVideo
@@adirondacker007 If you had known about the condition of that airplane, I know you would have grabbed the key. Thank you for sharing the story. I had wondered about the backwards logic of this, too. These planes should be remembered for what they were, and if that means doing it from the ground because we can't afford to fly them safely, then so be it. They shouldn't be remembered as cobbed together bits that are a lethal tourist attraction.
@@adirondacker007 I drive flatbed tractor trailer,in the NYC Metro area.
37 years.I have been at my present job,10 years.
I was asked to be a "Safety man"
I started to point out grievous issues.
I was persecuted,and got-"If you don't like it,leave."
From management,and ownership.
I resigned in a very loud conversation.
The problems,still exist.
It's all about the 'Green'.
I thought the Collings Foundation,was better than that.
I hope someone goes to jail.
How does one know when the curtain must lower on a vintage plane's show? I think they will all literally be flown into the ground eventually 😑
That corrosion is really alarming for a recent overhaul. Did someone pencil whip it?
I agree, and aren't the engines supposed to be bench tested after overhaul too?
Yeah, I'd say that was a gun decked signoff. There is no conceivable way that happened to a running engine in the intervening time.
@@shaunolinger964 unless it was poorly timed and only got worse from wear and neglect, combined with ignition issues causing lube washdown? it's a hard-knocking life, and it's a short one. that piston would have failed eventually from just being over heated, under lubricated, and just getting beaten like a whipping boy for it's whole life.
@stromsky58 my grandparents retired there in New Smyrna Beach where the C-17 was stored in the winter. My grandpa was militant about keeping the salt air from eating his car alive. I’m sure that poor airplane suffered mightily during the months it was exposed to that environment.
In defense to the person/company that did the overhaul of the number 3 engine. I agree if they did the overhaul and hung it on the wing they did not do their due diligence and the corrosion was missed/overlooked. But I am willing to bet that the foundation had/has extra engines. If I am a betting man (which I am not) the inspector from the FAA office needed to inspect the areas where the foundation keep their spare parts. In Florida if these spare parts are left out it does not take very long for the corrosion to occur. Also I bet preservation precautions were either not enforced, or worse yet total ignored. The head pilot and the foundation are at fault but I think it is fair to also say the local FAA office didn't do them any favors. Just sad that peoples lives and a piece of history were ruined that day.
The grounding spring is there to protect personal when turning a propeller. If the P lead became disconnected there would be a HOT mag and the engine could fire. Hopefully the engine was shut down properly with the fuel firewall valve
True but not to be relied on as "safe" because relying on a good ground is deadly. Engine can fire if propeller is turned by hand and it is to easy for a poor ground (dirty/carrosion) because the system relies on a good ground connection giving you a false safety overconfidence the motor can't fire when it could. So a propeller / reciprocating engine on aircraft should be considered like gun safety, always loaded / ready to fire / start, so all safety precautions are in place as though motor can start even when turned "off". ..
I’m a bit confused - is the P lead an electrical wire or a physical cable that pushes against the grounding clip and runs all the way back to the cockpit like a morse cable?
@@eliotmansfield Well, it's an electrical circuit that starts where the tip of the P lead contacts the inner spring which is in turn part of the points, and a simple wire carries that connection into the cockpit where the ignition switch continues the circuit to airframe common (sometimes called "ground"). When the cockpit switch is turned on, it actually disconnects the P lead from airframe common and allows the engine to fire. If the P lead becomes shorted to the airframe at any point along its travel, the magneto will be shut off. On this magneto this can happen right at the magneto if the lead begins to disengage from the magneto body. Whoever installed those safety wire kludges had no understanding of the catastrophic things that could happen if those connectors vibrated out of position - which they would inevitably do.
@@paulcrumley9756 Thanks - had a look at the report on a big screen and now understand the issue
@@eliotmansfield The P lead on a C47 aircraft is made with RG-8 coaxial cable I presume the b17 is also. When the P lead is grounded it shorts the points as if they were closed . A Magneto fires when as the points open. The rest of the magneto operation is hard to explain without diagrams and preparation by the student and also the instructor. It took me several hours to understand the internal gearing and how a four pole magneto fires a nine cylinder engine.
My dad went to school on radial engines and went on to work on and rebuild 3350 engines on B 29s. He taught me a lot. ❤😊
Very good report, I've been a mechanic for 45 years on internal combustion engines,, I agree with all you talked about,,, simple, but important things that get overlooked!!!!!
Thank you, Juan. Tragic. Random thoughts: These planes are old and require diligent and extraordinary care. Non-profit and philanthropic organizations, by their nature, organization and operation, are generally less likely to provide the rigorous, highly focused, operational care that a vintage aircraft requires. Benevolent intentions, admirable as they are, generally do not provide the kind of consistent, highly driven, attention to detail and focus that you might observe in, say, a Fed Ex maintenance facility. Here, the pilot was 75 years old and doubled as the chief mechanic. You would be unlikely to see that combination in a standard commercial venture. Aviation is a demanding and unforgiving mistress, intolerant of complacence. A country that could design and build these planes, train, equip and launch a 500-plane raid, and had men of courage to accomplish these missions, is a great nation. The program is grounded. We must still find ways to honor the men, their machines, and their enormous sacrifice . My sympathies to the families involved in this tragedy.
That is especially true these days where volunteer participation and donations are generally down substantially in recent decades due to declining interest in such organizations as people have made themselves so busy and “always connected” that many simply do not have the free time to participate in such organizations , and what time they do have is often devoted to online forms of socializing versus in person social activities, until after retirement. Many clubs, of all sorts, have been struggling with a declining membership over the last several decades.
Thank you for the excellent deconstruction of this tragic failure! I have to say, I am really quite shocked that the bad lawnmower-grade "repairs" were allowed to fly. There is just no reasonable explanation for how anyone would look at the safety-wired cobbling and sign off on it, not to mention the rest of the jr-high-shop-class amateur-night stuff, like points gapped incorrectly. Just unbelievable, and to call this loss avoidable is putting it pretty mildly. All the best from Canada.
And every EVERY Powerplant certificate holder that saw it and turned away doing nothing shares the blame for the eventual outcome.
Very excellent presentation of the report. I am a self learned mechanic so I could totally understand what you mentioned about using spark plugs to read the story. What gets me is why wouldn't modern technology be applied here on something so critical? Such as removing the mags and points and using electronics along with knock sensors that would drastically help with ensuring the motors are running with the right timing and spark. Surely technology has evolved but perhaps cost or certifications prevent such things from being done. Having the additional over sight and inspections also key. I love seeing the old birds fly but there is just so much to take into account. In the case of the mid air crash in Dallas the other day, the B17 was likely just flying where it should have been but was cut down by the P63 King Cobra. But who knows, we'll need to wait till the investigation is completed but so sad that we lost more planes and more lives too.
This story is a sad one for me. Fortress 909 visited Concord, California, around late 2006 or early 2007. My wife, friends, and I completed the tour and watched her fly. I sensed that aircraft was living history and part of our heritage. Seeing and hearing it up close gave me something I could not obtain from a book or movie.
BTW, thanks for all that great coverage on the Oroville Dam!
The widely published photo of "Mac" ,RIP, standing on the top step!! Of a ladder tending to an engine is symbolic of the embedded problems with the operation of this airplane and its maintenance program. I have no doubt that Mac thought what he was doing was best for the operation of the program. The original Dan Gryder video that Juan published, and subsequently removed, got to the heart of the matter. One man shows are long gone, or so I thought. The economic stresses of these operations that require volunteer, unpaid, labor to continue, regrettably, lead to cutting corners. It is an old story in the history of aviation.
Hmmm...seems this organization's economic stress was so bad they were able to immediately buy a replacement for the B-17 they'd just put in the ground, along with some of their passengers.
Irregardless of the Organization's financial ability to acquire another tax depreciation asset, on its face, the operation of this B-17 is a textbook example of a fly by night third world freight operation. Having no knowledge of the internal finances of the Collings Foundation, I strongly suspect the operational mandate was " make this pay for itself or we will shut it down". All volunteer help. Operational structure and oversight in the hands of one person. There is no other way to explain the shoddy, almost nonexistent maintenance and lack of operational compliance. And yes, I spent 10 years in aviation in the Caribbean. Saw plenty of shoddy freight operations.
@@1919champ Absolutely.
I had been inclined earlier in my life to "volunteer" on 2 different railroad restoration projects. I can tell you for a fact that one of the major problems are some HUGE egos that are around those kinds of projects. These folks do NOT want to hear any other ideas than their own no matter what experience you may have brought to the project. I suspect that was somewhat of an issue in this case.
I am 73 and still working in construction. But I am very aware my skills are not what they used to be. I can't imagine, at my age, wanting the responsibility this man had for both maintaining and flying Nine O Nine. There is a reason you don't see commercial pilots in this age bracket.
@@1919champExactly! Dreadful lack of oversight sums this all up in one sentence.
I believe that rust on the cylinder walls is from condensation post crash. Cylinder walls will flash over very quickly once compromised as it looks like the head was destroyed.
909 was out in the LA basin for several years and always wondered how they could maintain the bird on the road with just the sketchy RV and not a major service truck or rig got my answer
Even new parts for the B17 are 70 years old and are getting rarer every day.
Who ever signed off on those mags? Need I say more. What's with all the debris in the bottom of the enclosure on the last pic?
Good ole boy network.
This is not passing the smell test.
This is the stuff you expext on a car that has not had any maintenace and driven until it compeately fails. Not on a aircraft.
Rust, grease, crappy old leads fixed with metal wire for 5 years! WTF. And all electric components out of spec. capacitors cables, coils, use new ones. these components deteriorate, specialy in HV aplications.they are not safe, even when (still) in spec. not in this aplication.
They gave too much authority to one person without checks and balances. It's entirely their processes and organizations fault in my opinion.
I get the point you're making but please consider the following. In any vintage passion the current expertise in the field has moved past the past. This creates problems like this imo. For example, take a 65 ford mustang to your local dealer with a simple problem, though the mechanic is superior in many ways they could stuggle as they are unfamiliar. Now I imagine that a b17 makes a mustang look simple. So as a pilot I want my mechanic to understand everything about MY b17. Now, if I owned a b17 I want my mechanic to fly it. I am a pilot and love these planes especially when they are flying but realistically who has the required know-all to provide oversight? I'm in my 40's theses planes were old when I was young. If I was to start now, I might be up to speed with one of these by the time I'm 60 which puts me deep into the back nine of life, just like the guys we're talking about. I've paid for experience flight like this, as a pilot I know there's a risk that I'm ok with, and I'm convinced that the risk will same regardless of oversight due to the nature of the activity.
Airtightness
I have seen many many horribly bad mechanics in 6 decades.
You cant change the "I dont care" itis.
@@airtightindustries Not a valid excuse. Magnetos are still current piston engine technology and all the knowledge any competent mechanic would ever need to overhaul anything on these engines exists in comprehensive written manuals.
@@TyphoonVstrom I'm not for excuses, I was just trying to point out that a b17 is a far more complex problem then say a c170. These are aircraft that were supported with military budgets when new and operational with vast crews and tons of oversight. I wanted to point out, oversight and improvements to the safety culture moving forward may not ultimately make them safe.
Wright R-1820 engines have been around for well over 80 yrs. They are the direct descendant of the J-5 Whirlwind that powered Charles Lindbergh across the Atlantic in 1927. My dad's college roommate went to work for Wright in 1942 and worked his entire career in their engineering dept on these, and other engines. They may have lots of parts but are relatively simple and reliable engines.....IF MAINTAINED. The maintenance is NOT difficult and easy for a good mechanic with the proper manuals. There are still a lot of them flying, and other radials of that vintage, like the P&W R-1830 used in most DC-3's. Lots of younger mechanics working on them today with no problems. But you have to do the maintenance, just like you would on a 4 cyl Lycoming.
I have pictures of me when I was 9 (23 now) leaning up against one of Nine-O-Nine's wheels. My late dad and I always talked about how it was our dream to go up in the B-17 one day when it came to town. If only we knew...
I was in this aircraft back in 2011 when she was at Chesterfield County Airport! Hard to think that she's gone now.
IF they had done a proper mag check during run up that should have been caught, A mag check turns off the select mag, so on the Number 4 engine it would not have continued running.
I built race engines for motorcycles for many years. Generally spark failures start at extremely high engine loads before you would ever notice them at a partial load such as a mag check. I had many plugs pass the pressure test on a machine and yet develop a bad miss in a hard pull. My engines developed so much pressure that Champion plugs right out of the box would misfire under full load. In the seventies Champion was a poor product. NGK's worked fine. The condition of the mags were certainly unacceptable, but a mag check is not an end-all test.
@@johnbaskett2309 The mag check may not have showed bad spark plugs but would have showed the failed mag. the engine wouldn't have continued to run when that mag was selected.
@@wb6anp I can't imagine they would take off with a dead mag or not do a mag test at all.
@@johnbaskett2309 That's why I said I don't think they did a proper mag check. The other question is did the "P" lead pull out during the crash, the report doesn't bring that up.
Hard to believe the run up of those two engines before takeoff was successful. There had to be a bad mag drop and lots of backfiring.
That's assuming they actually did the run-up and mag check properly. If the #4 left magneto was grounded out before the crash, the engine should have killed as soon as the switch was flipped. Even if the left magneto was hot, the RPM drop on the right should have been unmistakable. And seeing those spark plugs, #3 should have been a mess at full throttle.
I'm beginning to think the only way they could have gone ahead with the takeoff is that they at least skipped the magneto check, and probably explicitly ignored performance problems if they did in fact do an engine run-up at all.
@@don_5283 I have seen elsewhere that while the crew chief claims a run-up was done, passengers say otherwise.
@@don_5283 I thought if the left magneto was shorted hot there would be no drop when the right magneto was selected. I.e. they are "normally on" and selecting L/R grounds the alternate.
@@jamescaley9942 The magneto's primary wire cable inserts into a threaded ferule in the magneto's case, a threaded nut over the end of that cable secures the cable to that threaded ferule in the case, and a small safety clip secures the nut for an additional safety margin. When that cable is inserted into that ferule by the mechanic, the connector on end of the primary cable pushes aside a metallic leaf spring inside the magneto housing. That leaf spring is a safety device which is designed to short out the magneto against it's housing anytime there is no primary cable present, so that the mag cannot produce a spark whenever the primary cable has been removed. Once the cable is removed from the housing, the magneto is dead because the leaf spring shorts out the mag. Once that cable was dislodged, that mag was dead. If you look at the photos, the cable was dislodged and the safety clip was not present, the safety clip had been replaced with a section of safety wire.
Until complete, competent, and timely scheduled maintenance and oversight can be assured, these war birds are best appreciated in a museum. Opening the cowl on a plane like this would have been considered opening a can of worms in the day when my dad was a trader and restorer. My dad's best friend was A&P (A&E back in his day) and a relentless supervisor of all projects.
correct me if im wrong but... aren't you supposed to test both mags on the engines when your doing your preflight/runup?
You are correct. You are verifying that both left and right are operating (the engine doesn’t die on one or the other) AND that there is an expected RPM drop. If the RPM doesn’t drop, that indicates a magneto that’s is shorted hot/on.
see Part I
Hopefully with the four-engines:1&3 maintained. Then 2&4 maintained. I never thought of the massive amount of drag on one side, caused by an engine failure.
The pilot needing to compensate: to maintain level desent (sink rate).
It's critical. There are some runup items that only need completion once per day, but the magneto check is inviolate. A note here: the 100 RPM ( and frequently more than that) drop when a magneto is not operational will only be seen on the ground when the engine is operated with the props on the low pitch stops. Airborne, the constant-speed feature keeps the engine at the same RPM regardless of whether it is running or not.
@@blancolirio Good job as always Jaun, but just a little critique. Isn't preignition a precursor to detonation? preignition is like dropping the bomb and detonation is when it goes off! Or as your "Pete says Kablamo" Ha ha.
I got a ride on the 909 in 2012 thanks to my wife's grandfather and the Collings Foundation. It was a childhood dream come true, a RIDE OF A LIFETIME, and A GREAT HONOR to be a part of it. The local news covered his flight (he jumped out of one and was a POW). I posted it on my channel. I was devastated in Oct'19 when I heard of the accident and lives lost. :(
Great coverage! Is the lack of meaningful FAA over site of the maintenance program part of the chain of events that may have helped contribute to this tragic event?
The FAA does not have the resources to properly oversee every passenger-carrying organization out there. The problem is only solvable via a voting booth. Good luck.
You bet it is. The FAA completely ignored their supervision responsibilities!
nice work. two points the Vmca for two on a side is between 90 and 95 mph depending on which side is out. trivia..the gear motor in the 299/B17 is the same gear motor (slightly more modern version) in the B737 alt flap extension.
I would agree with below comments the engine was not maintained. I am still thinking about the pilot control issue
nice work Robert
Excellent Reporting. Pilots over 70 Worrisome Doing The Maintenance Down Right Scarry
Seems like the fiddly side of the maintenance got rushed. Gapping 8 magnetos and 72 spark plugs must be tedious, but it's crucial.
I would have updated to a modern design. The "tourists" would never know the difference. For those that scream MUST BE ORIGINAL, it's junk now.
@@gailtaylor1636 You must have been reading my mind. What prevented me from saying the same thing was I don't know if its like vintage cars where *original* is all-important. These planes are worth a lot of money, does non-original affect the value?
@Scumfuck McDoucheface I would hope that's the case because Gail is right, safety is paramount. I like your idea of storing the original parts if some future buyer is obsessed with *original*
@Scumfuck McDoucheface I had the same thought about the seat belts. They would have been better off buying and installing new aftermarket lap belts for use in a '57 Chevy than using the frayed, difficult-to-buckle, impossible-to-cinch, but "authentic" seat belts they had.
Now, one can argue that, depending on the dynamics of the crash, even secure and snug lap belts would have led to serious injuries or fatalities, but that's a whole separate discussion.
@@gailtaylor1636 it's not like ADS-B would have been an original feature. Ditto with VHF radios for the pilots.
Great video Juan. Having flown about a 1000 hours in a Navy C-54 a lot of your presentation wasn't new information for me but it was great how you presented in a clear way for many to get a better understanding of "recip" aircraft engines. It is sad, but these old birds and their mags have a long history. Count count the number of times we went out to our planes only to find an engine that didn't want to start due to wet mags. We windmilled them a lot. Our DC4's had an onboard engine analyzer which could easily point to a problem that would avoid what happened in CT. We could see the timing as well as the strength of our sparks. Again, thanks for the work you do to explain to the public. Just curious, do modern jets have an onboard display of ignition condition besides exhaust temp?
Did you always call out "Plug, Lead and Coil"
A jet engine is like a blow torch there is no timing. If it lights the ignition is working. The ignition is usually on for Landing and at times where a flameout could occur. There are several indication systems including tachometer readings for the individual shafts, engine pressure ratio and gas temperature. These show engine condition.. There is nothing so tense as watching TGT still rise faster than N3 after you cut fuel.
@Gary747 Not for quite some time. See you recognized hot start indications on an L1011 #2. That was when I learned it is best to top out the starter on a RB211. Also learned the line from the fuel shutoff valve to the engine on #2 holds a lot of fuel.
@@jayreiter268 Just gave me goose bumps Jay. I was a "radio/navigator" so it wasn't me calling them out it was the mech next to me. The bird I flew in most had logs going back to the Berlin Air Lift! Guess she hauled potatoes. Stationed at Gitmo we flew all over the place to serve the embassy personnel. Lots of little islands and short runways for a bird our size. Coral runways sure tore up the tires fast. San Juan PR was the biggest island and best facilities we had. Used to love going into and out of Isla Grande Coastguard station between new and old San Juan. We'd buzz the bridge coming in and out.
Could the excessive corrosion been caused by the anti icing fluid that you said the engine was near??? Can't believe that cylinder came from a running engine... Interesting to see that the points were so out of spec! I used to play with race engines back in the 70's & 80's which had dual points, maybe folks nowadays are just not used to working on that older tech... Thanks sir for another great video!!! :-)
good point!
Thanks for these videos. I know they can save pilots and those they are responsible for if they look and listen for the lessons to be learned. Regardless of what you fly.
I don't see how the findings could be considered anything other than criminal negligence.
Negligence? Yes. Criminal? No. There was no *intent* involved. However that does not take away from the seriousness of the neglect. You can spread out the blame because of the *lack of oversight* that may have prevented such things to happen in the first place. We can all be "armchair quarterbacks" after the fact. But we do not know what chain of events led up to the gross negligence of the magnetos. Was it oversight? Were the bailing wire retainers "forgotten about" from an earlier "get it going" incident? Was that particular mechanic reassigned? Did that mechanic fail to make it known the clips were missing? Was the person assigned to "blow out the mags" qualified to even take notice to the bailing wire not being secure? Many things can get lost in the shuffle during the interim.
@@LTVoyager Educate me, and everyone else please...
@@LTVoyager "You clearly have no clue what criminal negligence is."
Feel free to set me straight. I'm always interested in learning.
Most crimes involve intentional conduct. For example, in some states, the offense of assault can be comitted by the defendant intentionally using or attempting to use force against someone, as with a punch or kick. By way of comparison, the unintentional use of force against someone-for instance, raising one’s arms in celebration and accidentally hitting someone-doesn’t constitute an assault.
But some crimes involve reckless or negligent, rather than intentional, conduct. The term "reckless" essentially describes a defendant’s simultaneous understanding and disregard of a substantial risk of harm. An example is a defendant having previous DUI convictions and understanding that driving drunk can harm or kill people, but nevertheless getting behind the wheel while intoxicated and causing a fatal accident. (See What amounts to recklessness?)
Negligence is a concept invoked more frequently in civil, rather than criminal cases. (See Negligence, The 'Duty of Care,' and Fault for an Accident.) That’s because conduct that involves ordinary negligence, like becoming distracted while driving and rear-ending someone, typically isn’t enough for a criminal conviction.
But negligence also has a place-right next to recklessness-in criminal law. Some courts draw a distinction between the two terms, explaining that recklessness requires that the defendant actually appreciate the risk in question, while criminal negligence occurs when the defendant should have been aware of the risk. (See Ex parte Koppersmith, 701 So. 2d 821 (Ala. 1997).) But in practice, the concepts are difficult to distinguish, and many courts and legislatures use “criminal negligence” and “recklessness” interchangeably.
www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/what-criminal-negligence.html
@@LTVoyager Hey thanks for the help:
What is Criminal Negligence?
Criminal negligence occurs when a person acts in such a way that it can be considered an extreme departure from the manner in which a “reasonable” person would have acted in the same or similar situation.
In general, an act that rises to the level of criminal negligence typically involves one that shows an indifference or disregard for human life, or for the safety of other individuals.
@@JeffCounsil-rp4qv "Criminal? No. There was no intent involved."
But some crimes involve reckless or negligent, rather than intentional, conduct.
www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/what-criminal-negligence.html
I have flow T6 for 5 years and some 3500 hrs giving rides, doing simulated combat and such. We shared some airports with the Collings Foundation's birds. Some guys were cool, some of the flight suit wearing bunch......not so much to be nice about it. This was about 12 years ago, our T6 parts at the time were going up exponentially in price. My first boss was in it for the money, poor planes. Second job was much better but as these rides were mostly pr-sold as gifts, we were under tremendous pressure to fly. We did have a trailer full of parts, a good mechanic but there were times where we would be at the airport under the bird till 2 am to fly the next day. Some overhauled parts or components would not function properly, fresh engines making metal......Since it was a relatively simple airplane and since we flew the same bird most of the time we were intimately familiar with them. I knew oil consumption, fuel burn, loose rivets on the cowl.........We did well, but due to the commercial pressure at times it felt like ww2, without the shots being fired at us. To keep a 4 engine B17 flying, multiple that by a lot more than 4. I appreciate what Collings is trying to do, but the economics of 2020 are not in favour of doing road tour. In addition the pilot situation has to also be considered, there is such thing as too old and too inexperience. Again my 2 unwanted cent.
The same man was both pilot and chief mechanic. An awesome amount of responsibility for any one man and totally sans any sort of oversight. A multi-million dollar aircraft and dozens of lives at risk on many flights! Another pair of eyes can be extremely valuable. None of us are perfect. I am 73 and would not want anywhere near that much responsibility at my age. I still supervise construction projects but they don't fall out of the sky if you make a mistake.
I was really looking forward to this.... Thank you, Juan. NOW, I understand ! Merry Christmas to you and your wonderful family.
This just makes me want to cry. An irreplaceable warbird and 5? lives lost, many more damaged or destroyed, and a historical teaching interface gone.
7 lives.
T/Y Juan for explaining this sad series of events.
And a very public Thank You for your very cogent ( and dispassionate ) explanation of the underlying causes contributing to this accident ! Don't know about anyone else, but I mourn the loss of any historic ( or even old ) aircraft as with every one a bit of aviation history is lost !
Wow. No wonder the exemption was cancelled. Thats appalling negligence and bad maintenence. Lawsuits to come.
Juan:
Ex Navy air crewman(Radio) here on recips. R-5D(c54),R-6D(c-118), R-7V(c121),
I have gone through many pre-takeoff run ups, successful, and not successfull.
I have no doubt that the identification of the unsuccessful ones, is the reason why I am still here today
The inoperative mag on #4 would have shown up during the mandatory full four run up just prior to take off.
The inop mag. would have caused too much of a R.P.M. drop during the test.
NATOPS manual orders the Plane Commander to return to the ramp and rectify this situation.
That half field takeoff from the runway intersection, doesn't give the plane commander a convenient spot to do a stand still runup.
So.... it was probably half assed done on the taxi out,or not done at all.
Russian Roulette with peoples lives, played by an arrogant 4 striper, who thought, with all those hours in the book, he could twist the dragons tail and get away with it.
Ten tourists at $2500.00 apiece was a deciding factor here also.
Just my $.02
Art. Haughey
Ex USN AT-2 P1 A/C with VR-3, VR-7, and VR-21,
Skid marks in the sky,
I've flown with blind, the deaf, and the insane of all ages in the left and right seats.
P.S. The massive number of flight hours in type, and the skill brought to save the situation by the PIC, were used to try to correct a situation that he brought on himself.
Did they "blow the mags Out" by removing the 'P' LEAD? I have not done that procedure. I do know that there are problems with leakage between leads in the wire looms. That is why late r28800 and R3350 have low tension ignition with booster coils at the cylinders. A few of the guys with CJ6's that I have annualed have gone to auto spark plugs and replaced the wire looms with 8mm auto leads.
@UC1ek74Wk-CHZpln0pkjjDpA True I have had problems on my Ford Ranger. The Nanchang CJ6a is a Chinese aircraft with a 9 cylinder radial like a R1830 but 600 cubic inch displacement. I should have made it clear the first time.
Seems like this was caused by a failure from many areas! Tragic!
What an excellent presentation Juan. Your explanation and analysis are well executed.
Juan. I am very impressed by your knowledge of legacy engine constructs and associated legacy ignition systems. Not unlike legacy ignition in cars pre-dating 1975. Bravo Juan.