B-17 NTSB Report Details with Scott Perdue of FlyWire
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- čas přidán 28. 01. 2021
- Scott Perdue - former LHFE Warbird pilot reviews some of the details on the NTSB Factual Report.
Did Mac shutdown the wrong engine?
What will the NTSB final report say?
Bonus Track- Over Reliance on Automation in the Airlines Today
LINKS:
NTSB Factual Report:
data.ntsb.gov/Docket?ProjectI...
Blancolirio B-17 Crash Playlist:
• B-17 Crash 'Nine-O-Nin...
Theme:
"Weightless"
www.arambedrosian.com
Patreon:
www.patreon.com/user?u=529500...
PayPal:
www.paypal.com/paypalme/juanb... - Věda a technologie
My brother in law Robert Riddell was one of the people who perished on the 909. I just wanted to thank you all for these reports to help those of us who just don't quite understand the technical aspects of this. From my family to you I thank you.
Need the take legal action against the CAF their pilot killed your in-law and the others in that plane.
You two are like giant raging volcanoes of aviation knowledge. Thanks to both of you.
I would say fountains of information because their calm demeanor is so clear and relatable. Experts among experts.
Amazing!!!!!
Normalization of deviance. Big meaning in those 3 words.
Just heard this phrase in a video on the loss of space shuttle Columbia.
Isn't that Washington, DC?
Could be applied to many things if you catch my drift.
@@petermattei8510 that’s normalization of deviants.
Lol!
Wow! This discussion is absolutely one of the best videos you have done, Juan. I felt like the proverbial fly on the wall, listening to you two guys discussing this 909 incident. I also agree that it would be a shame if future Heritage Flights were cancelled. Proper CRM would have probably saved the lives lost. I was the drivers rep on my companies Safety Committee. I use to harp on complacency; it will get people into trouble.
I lucked out and just discovered Scott Perdue just before seeing this video!
..absolutely
Thank you for giving us non-pilots so much insight into what is happening in the cockpit. Could have listened to you and Mr. Perdue for another two hours.
You should do a regular series (maybe every other week) with Scott, but filmed with two cameras in a kind of a discussion round (with only the two of you) about some topic (automation, expectation bias, some famous accidents, etc etc) - BUT in a setup INSIDE the house, sitting at a fireplace and having a drink.
Good idea!
I've read everything I could find from the NTSB on 909's tragic demise, and I've got to say that Scott Perdue's explanation - augmented by Juan Browne's expert observations, is infinitely more plausible than anything the NTSB has come up with. It was a sad, sad event, but listening to these two pros explain it certainly takes most of the mystery away. Thanks so much from a long-ago helo driver. Best regards to you both.
So bottom line, when you cut to the chase, you end up with pilot error. The proverbial chain of events.
@@speedlever Multiple pilot, maintenance and management errors. That aircraft should never have been flown in the condition it was in....yet it had been multiple times. The flight prior had everything exactly the same save the small amount of additional wear the defective parts had accumulated...so it shouldn't have been flown then either. You could probably go back dozens or even hundreds of flights before you get to one where the aircraft was actually airworthy. This incident wasn't really an 'accident'...it was the inevitable conclusion to doing a LOT of things wrong...all of which could easily have been prevented.
The lack of proper maintenance and oversight concerning safety of this entire operation was simply appalling. There is no stronger word to describe it. The pilot, with more time in a B-17 than anyone else in history, was doing all the maintenance on the aircraft, was also the safety officer for Collings and signed off that there were NO SAFETY ISSUES with Nine O Nine, despite knowing he had been flying it with bad magneto trouble all summer, and maybe longer. When the man doing the maintenance, and certifying that maintenance wise it is safe to fly, is the same man who makes the final decision to take to the air with paying passengers, expecting there to be no question of safety, there is a horrible lack of oversight, and that is what is what is primarily responsible for this crash.
The pilot should have been grounded long before for deliberately, and foolishly, compromising safety. It was a wonderful aircraft, I had toured it a few years back, but it was lost, and several families torn asunder, directly because of the pilot's reckless maintenance and the willingness to chance lives, and the aircraft.....for money. Sad and disgusting all at the same time.
@@nathanpitts5319 I hadn't read that the PIC was also doing the 'maintenance' and signing off on the safety...thanks for that. He paid the ultimate price for it but sadly took several others with him.
SeaSkimmer Your comment about "Scott Perdue's explanation-Juan Brown's expert observations" put EXACTLY as we feel also!
Its great listening to people who know what they are talking about.
YEP!!!
I worked in an IT environment for about 35 years. A good part of it was spent writing procedures. A better part of it was explaining to people why they needed to follow them. I could bore you with detail but there is a rhyme and reason to procedures. It's very sad that lives were lost in a priceless airplane.
Ah, very under appreciated necessities.
RTFM. And condolences to the families and friends of the people who died on 909.
I flew on 909 in June,2018, from Bremerton, WA, up Puget Sound and over Seattle and return. It was the realization of a lifetime dream to fly in a B-17 (I'm 67). As a bonus, I spent the whole flight in the radioman's seat, and I'm a Ham radio operator (WB7OVB). I looked out a lot - never noticed the angels flying alongside, although I now realize they were certainly there. Thank you, Scott and Juan, for the continuing excellent analysis of the accident. My condolences to the families of all the souls lost that day. I sincerely hope that Collins can improve their maintainance and teaching program, and keep the old warbirds flying. The flight was a thrill I still have trouble putting into words. Mark
One of the best aviation videos I've ever seen. Leading us through the analysis on the #5 cylinder, #3 engine was fantastic, as was the emphasis on CRM and cognitive biases. "Normalization of deviance" has entered my vocabulary and I'm grateful. Also fantastic discussion about the children of the magenta. Thanks for all you do.
Please have more with Mr. Perdue, your a great team
As a former merchant marine officer, your discussion of, well all of it, rings a bell to maritime accidents too. But the automation part is what I want to comment on. when I got out of the academy in 2000, it was a time of rapid technology growth on the bridge, and BRM (CRM for ships) was still in its "teen years." There was a lot of "stop looking at the damn radar and look out the window more!"
Roger that cap...I was just thinking the same thing. I'm an old captain and see so many people todsy fixated on their GPS chart plotters, pushing buttons and rarely looking up. Scan, scan, scan and use EVERYTHING you have available to safely navigate.
Clearest explanation of the B-17 crash I've heard. And makes the most sense. Nicely done. Thanks, guys.
Scott's and your comments about automation are spot on. I saw this in the Army, I see it in sailing, and I see it everywhere including in flying. When something goes wrong, too many people are not prepared to do things manually. They think the computer will take care of everything but forget that the best computer is inside your head.
I had the privilege to meet the pilots and inspect the "909" at an air show in 2018 and was impressed with the aircraft being that close at it. Watching the pilots crank the B17 engines, taxi, and take off was incredible. What a sad day that was when I heard about the crash.
Scott is definitely the kind of guy you can have high confidence in. Calls it straight and true no matter what the implications.
Two amazing guys, so much knowlege.
Bring Scott on more often, what a great guest to have on! Thanks, Juan.
Juan dropping the O2 masks in the passenger cabin with a spot on, military style hard landing on a check ride...
Absolutely Priceless!!!
And thank you to the pair of you! Sharing your irreplaceable knowledge helps insure our living history continues to fly far into the future.
Thank you. 🙏
Keep Calm and Carry On 🖖
I could HAPPILY listen to you two tell flying stories for as long as you wanted to tell them! THANK YOU!!!
This makes much more sense.
I just couldn't understand how a lightly loaded B17 wasn't able to fly on 3 engines, or even 2.5, around the pattern.
Thank you for the effort Juan.
Making right tirns into dead engines at VMC..
OUCH
Scott is so well spoken and so knowledgeable, absolutely wonderful to hear his input.
The combination of experience and wisdom between the 2 of you is fantastic but what tops it off is your ability to break it down to digestible pieces that we mere mortals can understand. Thank you gentlemen. PS: Pity NTSB doesn’t employ you guys on their investigations.
I had watched Scott's video on the 909 crash a while after viewing yours, Juan. Having volunteered for years with Collings and flown many times with Mac (including a flight with engine trouble along the Orange County, California coast) I have to admit I was upset listening to Scott's earlier video describing in detail what went wrong, which included Mac's actions. Yet today I'm very impressed with both of you getting together to discuss these amazing details, including Scott's knowledge (and history). One thing I'd noticed about Mac was how hands-on he was with Nine-O-Nine while on the ground. That made it difficult to hear some things, but I can't argue about them. I agree this is one of your best videos.
"Skosh." Haven't heard that in over 50 years. Thanks for the analysis, Mr Perdue and Juan.
Lots of engineers use it. "Sukoshi"
Engineers I know use it.
I use it all the time!
In 1953 I knew a kid in Topeka, Kansas, and his Air Force parents named him Sukoshi Foreman
Juan, I'd love to know your thoughts on that Air France accident. That's one I've always wondered about. You can p.m. on that if you wish.
That was probably the most instructive thing I have ever seen on CZcams. I could watch and listen to you guys all day, all week long. Amazing.
Greetings from Switzerland, thank you for your high quality content!
Wow, Scott has great information. Love his knowledge of the old aircrafts.
Thanks so much for explaining both the mechanical side of the event as well as the human side. The B-17 prototype accident gave us checklists, maybe this accident will be a reminder to use them intelligently in both normal and abnormal/emergency operations.
I could listen to Scott Perdue talk for hours...really, really informative
That, Sirs was a VIDEO! The chance to sit by listening to you two over a coffee would be pure gold! The way you discuss the issues and explain the complicated procedures makes it not only easier to understand but even more fascinating than ever! Thanks for sharing.
Man ,what an amazing experience to listen to you two. The old masters are speaking. The question is, is anybody listening. It appears that people died because someone thought he knew it all..Great video.
it's fundamental knowlege....101...
...and because other people let him. Everyone at that operation knew the one pilot flew 99% of the takeoffs and landings of that plane, and was head of maintenance, and everyone was OK with it.
@@tomsmith3045 - It's because Mack always returned from trips and tours with buckets of money. His "Business As Usual" attitude and complacency got people killed - as well as an irreplaceable warbird, lovingly restored, lost forever.
You have to watch out for those 'know it all's"!
There was an Indonesian pilot who admitted, after a runway runoff, that he actually didn't know how to manually position the plane for landing. He was just an autopilot jockey his whole career.
Some of the best lessons and information comes from hanger flying. Ears open, mouth shut. If you don't understand something, ask, don't assume.
@@jpaulkepler4638 I totally agree with you. When I was doing my PPL, I learnt a lot in the airport café by listening in to old pilot chatter. Real world experience.
Auto Pilot Jockey.. LOL..
@Peter Mortensen It was at Bali Denpasar. The plane went into the drink at the end of the runway. Lion Air.
Juan, Archiving your expert’s testimony is one way to carry the fading knowledge forward. All arts need not be lost. We had a Pt26 for a while and finding experienced instruction was a bit of a challenge.
Just so long as Google doesn't decide to pull the plug on all of this somewhere down the road ...
I’d feel safe flying with Scott.✈️👌👍
And Juan!
@@travelbugse2829 Without question!😉✈️
Having Scott share his knowledge about this incident was great. Thanks to both of you for your efforts.
The turbochargers on 909 were disabled. I took a ride about a month before the accident. During the walk around, I noticed the turbine wheels were locked up. Asked the crew about it, they confirmed. Disabled because ths turbos aren't needed at the altitudes they fly at.
I noticed the same a couple years ago. The turbine wheels appeared pristine - never had any exhaust flowing through them while the wastegate exhausts had normal brown/oily appearances.
according to a footnote on page 23 of the Powerplants Group Chairman's Factual Report, the turbos were removed from the engines as unnecessary since the aircraft was never operated about 10,000ft where supplemental oxygen would be required.
Yep. Pretty common on warbird planes. Never run them over 10K feet, remove extra systems that are hard to maintain.
Another collab! I *LOVE* it! Juan and Scott, please do this more often! Putting both of your vast experiences together and training provides a super valuable insight to this accidents.
I love how these two work together, both have great youtube channels. They are two guys who put away their egos and simply want the truth. It is so damn refreshing. They are both gifts to the aviation community. Bravo guys!! Keep up the great analysis and reporting.
You two are great together!
Juan seems to be able to strike up and educated conversation with pretty much everyone. he's a one in a million! His videos are awesome, right?!!!
It's stuff like this that makes you appreciate CZcams. In depth video like this with experts of this calibur for free.
Learned more in this video than any I've ever watched and I think I've watched every aviation video on YT.....
Three to five minutes for a full run-up of a vintage aircraft engine seems like time well spent.
any engine.
Take offs are optional, and landings are mandatory and best to be in control of the latter .
I'd say run em up for 15 min. If there is a power problem, find it out on the strip, not in the air.
@@timgear9892 Avoid overheating those cylinders you are taking off on. I flew DC3's in the tropics.
@@timgear9892 Can't. They will overheat. They are air cooled and need a lot of air over the cylinders to keep them cool. Not to mention that wastes a hell of a lot of fuel, and at 7 bucks a gallon it matters.
You two make a great pair, could listen to your experiences all day long!
I keep coming back to this, 1 of the BEST “After the Incident” Reports I have EVERY seen. You can watch it Numerous times & Still learn from these Gentlemen. Thank you again.
I'm ex USAF (C-141, KC-135, and B-52) and I could listen to these guys for hours. They have so much knowledge and experience yet they keep it easy to understand for a wider audience and don't wander off into the esoteric weeds. That's hard to do for someone with as much technical background and experience as these gentlemen. The AF taught me to think in terms of checklists, decision (logic) trees, and overall proper procedure, and I have found those concepts and what's discussed in this video to be applicable to life in general outside of aviation. Organize your thoughts, think in linear, logical terms, and recognize/eliminate personal bias. I also flew on 909 as an observer several years ago with Mac McCauley in the left seat, so this discussion has a personal aspect for me. These gentlemen echo many of my same general thoughts on what led up to the event on 2 Oct 2019.
Another great explainer of aviation 'stuff'
Bring Scott back for more, please!!!!!!!!!
B-25.. What an iconic, awesome looking aircraft. I attribute this airplane for triggering my interest in aviation at a very young age.
And reading 30 seconds over Tokyo. I remember being fascinated by that book and developing a love of aviation when I was very young. Or perhaps that helped cement my love for flying.
20 year private pilot here. Thank you. I could listen to you two guys talk for days.
Don't know if others have mentioned it but Diane Vaughn's Challenger Launch Decision, where the normalization of deviance concept comes from, is an incredible dense read but so worth it
To be slightly clearer, "The Challenger Launch Decision" is a book, written by Diane Vaughn. It was not a decision made by Diane Vaughn.
Scott Perdue seems to know his stuff on this B-17.
Scott / Juan thanks for the assessment of 909's accident. As you mentioned in the video, I too hope that this accident doesn't lead to the death of the warbird exemption but there is already legislation in the house of representatives to introduce more regulations in this area.
Great analysis from both of you as usual. Thank you both for all you do for the community.
Thank you both for explaining the issues leading to this unfortunate crash. It’s a great vlog!
Juan this was an outstanding video. I loved to listen to both you and Scott make sense of some complicated relationships between design factors, human factors, and good old-fashioned discipline. I would love it if you two would do a video on Air France 447. I don't think many of us folks fully understand exactly what happened - with AF 447 - when the auto-pilot was disconnected and the PF lost Normal Law protections. The PF apparently flew the airplane into the full stall. Would love to know the intricacies of the Airbus pitch trim system and how that design - and the dual joystick controllers that were not interconnected - may have contributed to entering the full stall and the ability to recover once the airplane was stalled. Many thanks for excellent aviation info.
Thank you for not being afraid identify and call out problems. The only way to improve is to be honest about what the failure was. Thank you
Well said. As a retired airline check airman, I can say that what you two are preaching is spot on. More of this needs to be said, said and said again. The dumbing down of pilot capability due to automation is not the path to enhanced safety. The automation is a tool, not the operating method itself. The pilot is the operator, the monitor and the final fail safe mechanism.
Thanks Manny!
You two are national treasures. Thank you for sharing your wisdom, it undoubtedly has saved lives.
Totally blown away by this most excellent video. An open and honest discussion full of informed opinion and empty of the usual 'misinformation' usually supplied by the mainstream media. Much respect to the both of you. And thanks.
Please do a longer sitdown with Scott. Its great to hear straight opinions from you guys.
Another great one sir, I could just sit and listen to you and your guests talk flying all day. Thanks for sharing.
I can listen to Juan and Scott talk aviation all day! Such a valuable aviation channel! Thanks for doing this for us!
Great info here as always Mr. Brown. I believe I could listen to you and Mr. Perdue for an entire day. Would be great to hear you guys trade stories!
You two guys are very cool. Thank you both for all that you do to keep us informed. Appreciate you.
Thanks for this one, very good to hear the two of you exchange in this
As others are saying it is one of your best. I love hearing pilots have a chat particular those with so much experience in all types of planes. More please!
Great interview Jaun...thanks.
That's a great interview.
Another excellent presentation by 2 aviation giants, with the background to speak from experience. 2 thumbs up 👍🏻👍🏻
I could listen to you guys talk for hours! So much incredible knowledge between the two of you! Thanks, Juan!
Wow, great discussion, thanks Juan, and Scott. Looks like this prang was an “inevitable” rather than an “accident”.
CRM is of huge importance- (as the airlines discovered a long time ago).
And that “normalisation of deviance” has caused so many accidents over the years.
During my career, I was a great believer in disconnecting the autopilot early, and hand flying the latter part of the descent if the weather was good. Unfortunately, hand flying skills are in serious decline.
Keep up the great work
Nothing better than see you two "fessing" up on what may not have been the perfect landings. For that brief moment you were each right back there. I find it great to be able to look back and laugh knowing you had the guts to get through a rough spot when needed.
Thx for having Scott ! 2 thumbs up for you guys.
Wonderful to hear the detailed insight from Scott. I live near his old base of RAF Lakenheath. Love seeing the USAF F-15's, soon to be joined by the F-35. Sound of freedom!!
I was born in Bury St Edmunds, Suffolk at RAF Shepherd’s Grove. My dad was also stationed at Lakenheath and Thetford in Suffolk at different times, and a few years later at Upper Heyford in Oxfordshire.
After hearing this there is no way I would get in a war bird. I had a perception they were highly regulated because of their age but this seems to be wrong. Those spark plugs worried me too.
Excellent discussion, Juan! This is hands down my favorite CZcams channel and go-to source for aviation knowledge.
Good content Juan and Scott. Very informative and pretty easy to follow for us non-pilots.
Thank you, both. Critical Resource Management is lacking too often in all sorts of professions, like medicine, law enforcement, entrepreneurs, etc. The "Alpha" runs the show and everyone else just shuts up and "put the gear down when I tell you." I do respect pilots like both of you so much more, now, after being in Juan's CZcams Classroom for a few hours, now. Bravo!
I watch a lot of aviation channels for entertainment, but these two gentlemen and Dan Gryder actually teach me things. I'm a safer pilot now because of it. Thank you for your efforts.
Amazing conversation, thanks for sharing ! 👍
Great discussion Juan, a pleasure to listen to Scott Perdue and yourself about automation complacency.
Great job! I know there's so much to cover but the two of you chewing the fat is awesome! More of this please.
sounds like the NTSB investigation/reporting is suffering from normalization of deviance
These are very old aircraft. I do believe the NTSB folks do the best they can given deep knowledge of these types of aircraft is very uncommon. The NTSB would probably do well to reach out to that community for reputable experts like Mr. Perdue when they need to.
@@dcxplant I totally agree
however
it does happen that on occasion certain government agencies get staffed with ego driven numskulls that fail to see any need for outside help
the faa and ntsb are only a fraction of what they once were and getting worse each passing day.
@@SuperDave_BR549 Agree. There seems to be too much industry input into both, at the higher levels.
@@SuperDave_BR549 All government "agencies" fall into that category.
You guys are just great to watch, and you complement each other beautifully. Scott is so chill - love his accurate, calm demeanor. And the point about automation for the lowest common denominator is chilling! Great video!
This was a wonderful discussion. I'd love to see more of these on the channel!
This reminds me of the line from Hunt For Red October--"You arrogant ass, you've killed us."
you guys Rock !
What an awesome discussion of this incident. Thank you Scott and Juan for your expertise and reasoned interpretation. Another great video Juan!
Amazing video - putting these two minds together taught me many things that I didn't know.
Holy crap, Scott ripped the NTSB report to shreds.
Time to drop any ego and ask for a review of the accident given what Scott has pointed out from his extensive knowledge.
....need more pilots, less computers... here’s two GREAT pilots.
It's great to see you two together, such a wealth of experience and knowledge, thanks for sharing.
Thank you Juan for putting the facts and info together without the fluff or spin. It's great that you and Scott can share your knowledge and experience.
Only 4 minuets. This is the earliest I've been late.
What am I gonna do with you 2?
Never heard the term "normalization of deviance" before, but sure says a lot. Applies to so many things; consider where it winds up.
"One person in charge of everything with very little oversight of the whole operation." Remind you of anyone?
Unfortunately, this pilot made way too many assumptions and took far too many shortcuts. He got too used to flying that way...a common mistake, but certainly a costly one.
Another important lesson in the school of life - RIP.
Smooth sailing guys -
First time I've heard this phrase too. Although I bet most of us have experience the practice in jobs or life in general.
to this day I'll never understand the cavalier attitude about the on going problems with the mags.......dme
Two extremely qualified pilots. Thanks for the conversation.
I love seeing/listening to people with knowledge AND experience discussing what happened!