Trail Braking On Public Roads?
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- čas přidán 15. 07. 2021
- A video to consider the options of negotiating bends using trail braking versus the more tradition way of setting yourself up on the approach using the advanced system IPSGA.
- Auta a dopravní prostředky
Thank you for telling about the "Motorcycle Roadcraft - The Police Rider’s Handbook" which I just acquired it. It reminds me about my old Motorcycle Riding Theory Book from when I got my license way back in 1978. There's a lot of common sense in that book and it's well founded. I like it.
I think there is some misunderstanding. Trail braking is not about slowing as you go into a corner. You maintain speed to compensate for a tiny amount of pressure on the front brake lever so in a sense you are cornering at a constant speed when you trail brake as you would with other techniques. The benefits of trail braking are that you stabilise, level up the suspension by the use of the front brake which compresses the front forks slightly and crucially you increase the contact patch of your front tyre. The tiny amount of brake pressure also "tucks" the bike into the corner, preventing you from running wide. The other benefit clearly is that if you encounter something unexpected in a corner, you are already on the brake. If you've ever ridden into heavy cross winds, try just a tiny amount of front brake and you will find it "settles" the bike making it blow off course far less. This suggests the tiny amount of braking really is increasing the front contact patch.
I fully agree with you on maintaining speed instead of slowing down as you practice trail braking. It is the two last lines where I, or do not fully get what you mean, or where I think your suggestion is simply not correct. The situation as described is, (using my own words), you are riding with constant speed on a straight road and you experience some serious crosswind. Since I have never tried trail braking in crosswind situations I can only assume you might be right and the trail braking "settles" the bike. (I will certainly give this a try) The reason why you think the bike settles however, cannot be the larger contact patch. Sudden gusts in crosswind situations make you lean over, bringing you out of balance, for which you have to compensate by steering to the side the gust made you lean. Crosswinds do not make your contact patch loose grip. If one looses grip it is due to uncontrolled steering compensation.
Car drivers don't understand motorbikes and always think we ride too fast or shouldn't take overtakes even when it is perfectly safe and legal to do so. Trail braking doesn't promote going in to a corner too fast, it does allow you to corner faster, but perfectly safely, if it is done right by an experienced practitioner. The "trail" part is just 5% braking, just enough to put your tail light on, meaning you can increase your braking much faster if you needed to. Does that promote faster riding? Well it increases your safety buffer, so its up to you to choose what to do with that. Of course newbie riders should plan ahead and slow well ahead of time, and they should also take every opportunity to use techniques which allow them to be able to react faster to potholes, muck on the road, oncoming vehicles and unexpected tightening of bends. IPSGA is out of date.
This is a good take. Im glad you said that its ok to use your brakes in a corner if you need to.
When I first learned to ride my instructor was very adament about not touching the brakes in a corner. This was advice I took to heart. And tried to stick ridgedly to. Even though i struggled at the time with certain tight or downhill corners, I atributed this at the time to my own lack of skill and confidence rather than the need to use my brakes.
In the years since Ive become an avid trackday rider. On the track there is a very different ethos. You are very much braking late and agressively and often very deep into the corners. One of the main reasons for this is transfering weight to the front tire in order to generate grip for turning in. So it begs the question. Whats the big deal about using our brakes in the corner when it comes to road riding?
If I can so brake agressively into a corner at high speed at a track and it actually gives me more grip and helps me get around it, What harm is applying a moderate amount of brake at a sensible speed on the road going to do. The more experience I gained on thack the more silly the notion of not using my brakes in a corner seemed in my mind.
These days Ive adopted a much more casual aproach to riding on the road. I use my brakes as and when I see fit. I dont try to ride to any paticular system. While I think the likes of ROSPA and IAM have a lot of good Ideas when It comes to road craft, Lane position and vanishing points and the rest of it. And I do take these ideas on board as Im riding. When it comes to safely negotiating a corner and when to use brakes, throttle and steering, I think its best left up to the riders own skill and intuition. THere are too many variables out there in the real world to have a one size fits all approach to every corner and hazard.
That said I think what you observed in this video holds true. If you are riding at a sensable speed it is very seldom that you need to carry your brakes into a corner. If you are not carrying enough speed to trail brake then you obviously you dont need to trail brake. But there are always going to be corners that require you to use the brakes in order to negotiate them safely. Down hill and decreasing radious corners are some such examples. And this should not be forgotten in training. Even at a beginner level.
Well said! 👍
Good video about this trail braking topic.
I also noticed that in the USA many riding instructors started to encourage the use of trail braking on public roads too.
I agree with your findings, riding safe, systematically (IPSGA), and legally, there isn't a necessity for trail braking.
I also come from a similar background having done the IAM and RoSPA advanced riding training and eventually becoming an instructor for both associations (more exactly an observer for IAM and a tutor for RoSPA).
I also admit that trail braking can be a useful tool to own as there might be situations when it can make a difference.
I always used trail braking coming down from the mountain passes, like in the Alps, and everywhere else going downhill. It prevents to be too harsh on the engine while downshifting and helps control the speed better.
I also use it in the UK on double carriageway roads while negotiating tight exits with a vehicle behind far too close to me.
It's worth noticing that the latest edition of Motorcycle Roadcraft (2020 edition) contemplates now the use of this technique, although it does not specifically call it trail braking, but simply brake/gear overlap, giving examples of situations (similar to the ones I gave above) when it can be considered.
Just a thought. I believe that there may be some differences between the design of roads in North America and in the UK. The off ramps I observed driving in Massachusetts typically had decreasing radius turns. To be safe, you carry a little speed as you come off the highway to avoid being rear-ended and trailing the brakes as you enter the corner increases your safety and confidence. My understanding also is that trailing the front brake increases the rake of the bike making it easier to complete the corner. Also as these corners are blind corners, if animals were on the road, you can increase braking pressure to tighten up the radius to avoid hitting the obstacle. I really enjoy the channel. I have been riding for 36 years and your words resonate with my philosophy and I appreciate the riding tips. Cheers! JP
@Jean Paul Town hi JP, thank you for your comments. Glad you enjoy the channel. I get what you say about the trailing on decreasing radius turns, and I can see the merit. I think this is where upskilling and knowledge with a view to flexibility comes into its own. UK roads can have decreasing radius turns, double apex bends, and these can catch out many a rider who doesnt or cant observe the limit point. If this results in panic or heavy braking it usually leads to an incident, hence why the combination of good road reading skills and braking ability are so important. Ride safe
Wow great video about the pro en cons of trail braking from the UK, in my car after I got experienced, I started using trail breaking, in every corner where I had to slow down, It is basically doing the majority of the breaking before the corner an still break a little bit while entering the corner, I also started breaking late in stead of using engine braking before a corner, that way you get through a corner a little quicker, because your on the gas more, it basically either your on the gas or on the break, there is no neutral fase, once you know you can break a little in a corner it feels safer, because when you go in a little to fast, you just break a little and its no problem, I see people do that in cars all the time, my dad says he does not do it, but when I drive behind him in a corner, his brake lights go out halfway in the corner.
Then when I been trail braking in my car for 15 years, I start riding a motorbike and the instructor tells the students, "if you brake in a corner the bike will stand up and you will go wide" So you initially think that breaking in a corner is not possible on a motorbike, which feels bad, because you are used to that safety feature in your car. Later you find out that all that was BS and you can indeed break in a corner similar as you can in a car and the bike will not go wide, this is just a myth, yeah you can loose grip when you break to hard depending on your lean angle, but that's about it, so it is a bit more difficult then in a car thats true, but most folks can master it, and trail breaking is as easy as pie, it 's just a natural intuitive thing, that you would do, if folks not been telling you, that it is risky or not possible on a bike.
you can also use trail braking not to go quicker through a corner, to go through a corner in the same amount of time, but just go safer through a corner with different technique, because, the wheel base shortens, which makes the bike steer a little bit better, and the tire expands, when you do it properly by gently building up break pressure and you in fact have more grip that way
And yeah those advanced course motorcycle instructors in the Netherlands too that are like 50 years old, they just love it when you never show a break light on a technical road with lots of corners, and you only use engine breaking, only when the corner is so tight that it is about the same thing as making a turn, you should show a break light according to them.
Hallo... I am a 56 year old dutch instructor.... I challenge you to ride and keep up with me in the twisties... 😉
@@literal_leewell that sounds very irresponsible …
Thanks for another great 👍 video 📹 Phil very informative
Regards Tony
youre very welcome, thank you
Your video content is excellent. It seems lately, at least here in the US, trail braking is promoted as the absolute answer to all cornering, which it's not. I think you're spot on when you say that trail braking should be considered another tool in the riding toolbox. In my opinion, trail braking vs. slow-look-lean-roll is not binary, especially on most public roads. But covering your brake and learning to use it smoothly in a corner is a skill worth mastering.
If I may add that, having just completed another euro trip, it's almost impossible to negotiate a down hill mountain pass safely, without trail braking.
However I agree that on most UK roads, it's only useful if you are pushing on a bit tooo much... Good balanced video 👍
I rode in the Alps the first time in 1978 on my two stroke three cylinder Suzuki GT550 with my girlfriend as passenger. We also brought full camping gear. I didn't trail brake then and have never done it when we later revisited the Alps several times. Being in the right gear for engine braking and getting the right entry speed is the key. Alpine passes are easy because most curves are very short (hairpins).
I've been mulling over trail braking on the road for quite a while. Like you I've watched yt channels promoting it like it's the best thing since sliced bread, advising beginner motorcyclists to try it (quite recklessly imo) and not properly representing the roll element of slpr. I use the system, I consider myself experienced but I've also had reasonable success with trail braking however I apply the front brake very lightly and hold it into the bend, I'm not traveling fast, can stop in the distance I see to be clear, and as long as my weight is not on the bars unsettling the steering, the bike works and is smooth in and out of the bend. All said, I still prefer to get all the braking done upfront 95% of the time. Cheers.
thank you for your comments, much appreciated
An interesting video.
The roads near me can differ from those in this video....A section of fairly local road to me has genuinely steep descents incorporating multiple sharp bends & elevation changes mid corner. I have ridden same...On entry for one or two bends I may incorporate gradual, delicate, progressive light braking (hopefully with appropriate front/rear bias). My brake light also allows me to "give" information to any close following vehicles ! Plenty to think about - No issues ...Rapid progress was most certainly OFF the agenda !
Very aware of my considerable newbie "rider" status & remaining sensible.
Thanks
Stay safe
For me I have found trail braking the tool to use for my riding. However it took a lot of practice and understanding that the use of the brake (or in most cases engine break as I ride a litre) is very light. In most cases just engaging the brake light.
Why I prefer it is because if I mess up while trial braking I’m on the brakes and the brakes are loaded; so there is no violent disruption to the bike, as someone who has a tendency to stab the brakes this is a big deal (plus my brain likes the safety net of being on the brakes).
The downside is I often enter corners (mid section) too slow! So I then have to add more acceleration and correct my line; which is not ideal but I’ve come to the realisation it is the lesser of two evils for my riding. On corners I know however I can maximise my speed through which still being able to stop mid corner.
@Dom Cat thank you for your comments, interesting to hear different styles and experiences. I think a one size fits all approach to bends is a bit restrictive, hence why you find you are entering too slowly on occasions. But good to experiment and practice, and develop further to tailor your techniques to the circumstances. Ride safe...
I have previously used trail braking for a few years before I joined the IAM and did my advanced. For 99.9% of the corners around me, IPSGA is fine, but there is one situation I will still use trail braking in, which are tight and steep downhill corners, to maintain my speed better. I believe both IPSGA and trail braking are equally valid and entirely depends on who you are and how you ride. I have taken some parts from that time before I became an advanced rider, mainly that following the gear phase and entering a corner, I won't apply 1% throttle to maintain until I have achieved what I believe is max lean, then will apply that 1% before the limit point opens up. I didn't like how the bike felt when I preset the throttle entering a corner, but it has created a means by which I am still safe and smooth without affecting my speed too much. Just my riding style
I've found myself just naturally trail braking on steep, downhill bends, but at low speeds and as a new rider
Absolutely agree. Any rider enjoying his/her/they/thems machine will evolve as man/woman/heman/sheman and machine mesh, you've only got to look at GP riders using hard throttle with rear brake in a drifting slide! Obviously I'm not advocating that on the road, that is the most extreme example - but during lockdown I confused myself by watching too many 'counter-steering' videos. Finally got back on a bike and realised this 'counter-steering' is purely 'natural instinct' developed as a child on your very first bike.
You need to watch a video called 100 points of grip
Braking in a corner is absolutely fine front rear both does not matter but it’s How you brake slowly squeeze the brake do not grab
Trail breaking is only a technique that is not always necessary it depends on your pace if you’re going at a really good pace You may need to trail Brake
If your going a bit slower downshifting maybe enough with no brakes
It’s something you should know how to do doesn’t mean you need to use it
good advice. Completely agree, especially with "how you brake" . I think its one of the areas in UK training which should be developed pre test, as the current thinking is to not touch the front brake in a bend due to harsh use / tyre grip trade off. But honing braking skills is, to my mind, most necessary.
Thank you for your comment
THIS. Yamaha Champions Riding School would like a word… 😃
As on who has been trail braking for decades I agree with you that it is a tool. I wouldn't probably implement any trail braking on the "bends" your showing on the video. No need in those gentle country roads at those speeds. For those times you do need to brake in a bend you ware in a better place if you are already trail braking. As for flexibility trail braking is a very flexible technique. On your narrow zero visibility roads your speeds are so low you probably wouldn't use it much anyway.
All curves are gentle if the speed is right.
PS ,my way as I was taught by my IAM instructor ,which negates trail braking is for instance on a left hander I will move my head towards left mirror ,it makes the bike turn easier and keeps an extra bit of pressure on front tyre .TommyTickle
Thanks for you views on this 👃
Does pre-compression of the front suspension, flattening of the tire surface contact patch, provide better stability and traction on corner entry?
Isn’t that the real question we need to answer here?
Further, steep downhill (plenty in the UK), trial braking in first gear is often the ONLY solution.
Also decreasing radius, such as motorway off-ramps (with HGV’s up your chuff), exiting of fast A roads onto left T junctions, or blind corners. These scenarios better account for safety in consideration for other road users expected behaviours.
Further, saying (effectively, of course, I am paraphrasing dramatically) that we should all read the road correctly 100% of the time… is rather unrealistic too. Even the best misread the odd corner now and then, or get distracted by fatigue/cold/etc.
Trial braking then is not only a very useful tool to have in one’s arsenal for such eventualities, but a safety net that is worth teaching to beginners - who are far more likely, by accident, to run too hot into corners in general (judgement comes in part with hours in saddle). And as a more advanced skill, it’s about as basic as an emergency stop (which it effectively is in a corner - yes, ride to the distance you can see - but a dear running out of a hedge presents an unforeseeable hazard for example).
Sometimes I use only engine braking for corner entry (you can bond and learn your bike). Other times, add rear brake. Braking before the turn and maintaining, useful too. And trial braking, in a controlled manner - because no - it doesn’t mean you’re entering too hot for the road. Remember, everyone’s ability to stop in the distance they can see is very different. A beginners is significantly longer (most probably) than a seasoned pro’s. Equally, knowing how rapidly you can safely stop your motorbike on cold or hot brakes using trial braking, just decreases that needed safe stopping distance - thus increasing safe progress.
I ride tight twisties trial braking all the time. My speed is higher, but not illegal, as tight corners prohibit any need. I think our only point of contention is my first line of this comment, that question. As for whether braking must be done BEFORE corner entry - I do find that rather arbitrary, formulaic (and therefore unreliable), and outdated (from an era of less stable tire tech, bike geometry, suspension, etc).
It’s just another means of safely controlling your motorbike.
No it doesn't. It only smooths the suspension if and when you were braking so late that you were still doing a near stoppie at the point you turned in. This isn't exactly cornering faster; it's braking later. Even racers don't often brake this hard and late on purpose, and on a wide track the consequences of being slightly off just means running wide and losing time. This isn't something you can even safely practice on a track. Racers develop this skill by nearly crashing on occasion.
The place where racers intentionally trail brake in a planned fashion is where they purposely turn in earlier and more slowly than necessary, taking a shallow entry angle on the inside line. This allows inside passing. And for very powerful bikes it can slightly reduce lap time by making said corner slightly shorter. The latter reason only works for powerful bikes, because this shortcut makes the final apex of the corner tighter and slower (and more dangerous). By the time he reaches this tighter part and leans the bike all the way, he will be not only off the brakes but will have opened throttle to neutral, just like MSF teaches.
This intentional planned trail braking requires a wide track. The riders who find it beneficial to trail brake in the canyons are bad at steering. They turn in too early and slowly, making the eventual apex tighter. But unlike the racer on a track, this provides zero benefit to the street rider. It's a compensation for poor steering ability. On the street there is never a reason to turn in earlier than your skill allows. That just limits your options and visibility, and then you have to hope and pray that you can decelerate enough in time to make the corner.
Cars have additional reasons to trail brake over motorcycles. Loading the front tires can help them steer/rotate faster. Motorcycles don't steer the same way. You can't understeer or lose front traction on a motorcycle unless you're using front brake. It will never help you steer faster. Fast street riders will primarily quick flick when going fast, rolling neutral throttle as they do if not earlier. Like at the Isle of Man. It's riders who are not confident and fast at steering who will trail-fake or brake-steer their way through a corner on the street.
@@mildyproductive9726 ‘no it doesn’t’.
Okay, can you please provide any evidence at all and source for that assertion?
The rest of your post is unfounded, subjective opinion that often didn’t make any sense - or showed a fundamental misunderstanding of physics. Things like ‘motorbikes can’t understeer or lose front wheel traction in a corner’… I’m not even entertaining that. As for thinking pro bikers push the bike down underneath them to corner on the street, that’s amateur hour (increased risk for carrying too much speed and not trial braking).
But I will look at any evidence you have that actually answers the questions I asked…
@@aps-pictures9335 My evidence is that I've done it.
I've approached a corner in the mnountains way too fast and started braking WAY too late. I was still doing a near-stoppie as I reached the point I needed to turn the bike. But the street was so narrow and I was still going so fast that I needed to lean the bike 50 degrees in the blink of an eye just to stay on my side of the street.
So I let off from threshhold braking and rolled to neutral throttle in about a third of a second, so I could lean the bike in to 50 degrees in about a twentieth of a second. The forks overextended as I let off that much brake that quickly. They collapsed when I flicked the bike in. The bike rocked a bit through the corner. But I made it. Stayed well in my lane at 50 degree lean angle while the bike rocked once or twice.
When you reach 50 degree lean angle while still on closed throttle and front brake and you don't lowside, let us know.
Made me think, am I doing it subconsciously through Graveney. Will have to reassess my riding. More food for thought. At this rate I'll be overweight...oops! Too late 😁
Keep up the good work. Thanks Phil.
LOL, yes, its strange what we identify with conscious thought isnt it! Thank you, ride safe...
I'm a big fan of trail braking. Even during my driving lessons years ago it drove my instructor crazy to see my brake light only turned off more than halfway through the corner. Using it over the years has become second nature to me, I have noticed. Having said that, it does not mean I do not use the motor riding training method anymore. (forgot how you call it in English). It all depends on the circumstances. I do have to mention that despite your well appreciated effort to view and compare the topic in great detail, that given your years of experience with the motor riding training method, you might not be the unbiassed person to give advice on trail braking. Your line "because it's what i've been brought up with" sums it all up. Don't get me wrong here, I do believe your content is meant to share your opinion but people tend to see this as advice even though it should not be seen as such. One other thing that was mentioned by many in the comments, is, that trail braking is not primarily a way of slowing speed in the corner but to maintain speed. Difference being, in the former situation your entry speed is too high, in the latter it is spot on, or that's the intention.
I generally only trail brake on downhill switchbacks or if I messed up entry speed on a really tight corner that tightens unexpectantly admittedly my fault but I still needed to brake a little
Another excellent video, Michael Neeves (MCN test rider) also says shut the throttle off before the bend but am i right in thinking it depends on the bike/engine ?, on my Ducati Monster which is an L twin, if i shut the throttle off the engine braking is so harsh so i tend to keep a bit of throttle on through the bend then gradually feed the throttle on mid bend, on my GSXR 600 i can shut the throttle off as the engine braking is less on the inline four though i still feed the throttle on gradually (very gradually as it's a lot more responsive than the Ducati) mid bend, .
thank you, you are right that type of engine will have a bearing on how you might use the throttle or indeed the brakes on the approach. Of course the main area to get right is the entry speed. Once you enter the bend there is flexibility dependent on circumstances, if i enter a bend slowly i may need to open the throttle to offset cornering forces to maintain my speed or i will get unnecessarily slower, but if i go in quite quickly, there is the possibility of using momentum to carry me through to the apex and then opening the throttle to power out of the bend when i see a clear exit. My usual method is to gently apply throttle at entry to maintain speed but not accelerate, then increase power to exit when a clear view is seen. But each bend is an individual assessment and choice, not a default procedure! I have the same thing with the Ninja 1000 vs the 1200RT boxer, very different characteristics, amplified by choice of gear too!
@@MotorcyclePWR Cheers for the quick, detailed reply, all makes sense, you are an excellent teacher/mentor, keep up the good work, have already subbed, i'm 18 months in with my riding, aged 50, absolutely love it, have studied the Roadcraft book and tried to practice it on the road, every video you have done has been very helpful.
Hello and thank you for an interesting view.
Can I ask, when you did trail brake for the turn st 24:50, were you using front, rear or both brakes?
@stags7075 thank you for your comments. So the bike I was riding has linked brakes, so by default there was some rear in use as well as the front. The front was in use as the primary speed reducer with a percentage of rear for me to take the turn, as I turned in both brakes were progressively eased, so by the time I had reached the apex of the turn both brakes were off for me to ride away. All the best
@@MotorcyclePWR Thank you, I appreciate the detailed reply 👍
@@stags-gr8to youre welcome. Thanks for watching
Trail breaking is a great tool for the street, it keeps the chassis under tension and quickens the turning radius. If you need to srub off speed, a little pressure is all that is required. Stabbing the breaks mid turn will transfer weight forward resulting in a loss of traction.
interestingly, I heard that the purpose of trail breaking is not lowering the speed, but rather just slightly loading the front suspension just before entering the corner, and gently gradually release the brake as you lean, transferring the role of suspension loading from the brake to the cornering forces, with the aim to smooth out any loading/unloading of the suspension.
is this make any sense?
It works on a motocross track but on the road right gear and right speed is safer and smoother, on this video I see a few places with gravel and dry soil would you brake on that ?
I was hindered early in my riding by thinking I would come off if I used the brakes in a corner. I wish there had been a better explanation of why to try not to, but how to do it if required. I sometimes linger on the brake lever into a corner as I like to be of a mind that I could be stopping at the limit point if it became necessary.
If you take correct entry line, you'd have ability to decrease lean angle while you apply brakes to slow down for car or obstacle round the bend. It's when you turn in too early that you get a benefit from holding brakes coming into a corner. You shouldn't purposely turn in early on the street, but some riders are afraid to wait for the right time, and afraid to lean the bike that quickly as needed. On the track it's different. It's so wide that sometimes you want to turn in earlier while tapering off brakes.
Always thought it was a MOTO GP technique, racers coming in very hot etc. Not for me, I’ll stick to what I’ve been trained and practising when riding.
Heyup, I would only consider trail braking if it was a road I know very well ,and I was knocking on a bit , as for using front brake when leant over in an emergency, I'm sorry but I would only gently apply rear brake . the old ipsga way is safer as you've actually read the bend and should be using vanishing point .Tommy Tickle
Back in the day the beat advice on track was to get your braking done in a straight line before turning. That changed. Same for the road.
Bloody braking before block changing to select the right gear before the corner starts is just bonkers. It may have been useful when bikes were less sophisticated but even then I question whether it makes the bike less balanced.
Braking into the bend helps tip in and gives options should the unexpected be encountered. Releasing the brakes gently and slowly applying the gas as the corner opens out keeps the front tyre loaded until time to gradually release that load and put power down to the back wheel.
hear in UK we don't teach Trail Braking because as new rider its very easy to get it wrong ..and have a real bad day ... But like you said its a"tool" for box ..i normally only use it if ive made a mistake on how sharp a band is and ive come in too fast
That’s not trail braking, that’s ‘oh shit’ braking. Trail braking is premeditated (not emergency) and is a means of negotiating a corner at the fastest speed within your capabilities and is always going to allow faster cornering than SLPR on tight corners. The majority of road corners are not tight enough to require much if any braking. If you’re riding some really twisty stuff and being aggressive then trail braking is a required skill. Many will argue it’s for the track only.
@@smtsslt7468 well even if it is "oh shit braking" lol .. Its useful for that too hahaha
@@oldfartuk 👍🏻
I’m Canadian not American. I’ve seen the CZcams arguments.
For me the question is what is an advanced level of riding.
In the Uk advanced driving or riding ect is a thing.
Here, in Canada, it doesn’t exist or is completely different.
Our licence system varies by provincial jurisdictions. Generally in Canada a MC endorsement on an existing license requires both a skills test and a road test, official course are optional.
Slow look press and roll is pretty much the system.
It’s not, don’t use front brake when in a corner.
For skill test road test, to brake in a corner. It is not routine, It’s to avoid a hazard. Straighten the bike, apply brakes.
It was practiced as part of my skills course.
More accurately the system was taught as, Do not apply front brake with the bike leaned or the front wheel turned.
American States all have different requirements. Most only require a skills test, For an MC endorsement on an existing DL. Road tests are only required once bike or car.
Most riders don’t do further training. After obtaining a lisence
No limits on bike sise, for tests except for a minimum of 250 for an unrestricted licence.
To most riders here an advanced riding course is not about riding on the road. It’s about track days, off road, ect. Or slow manoeuvres on a big bike.
When I watch Ytube.
Most content providers, particularly those who advocate trail braking appear to me to equate skill with speed. Or Skill equals pace. There is an apparent obsession with twisties.
Possibly because most road are dead straight.
There is more than one CZcams expert posting videos of riding at speeds in excess of 100 mph on public roads. Trail braking into corners to demonstrate thier skill level.
I was an idiot when I was young. When I had the opportunity to open my throttle and go as fast as I possibly could on public roads I did.
Then I got it wrong. I was lucky to walk away. My braking skill or lack there off had little to do with it. My recollection, it was entirely down to my inappropriate and inconsiderate use of the throttle.
Today I don’t see going as fast as possible as proof of skill. I see it as proof you are still an irresponsible adolescent idiot.
When I rode a bike in the Uk 45 years ago. I got a provisional license, jumped on a bike without even looking at the Highway Code. As a dangerous menace to society.
Followed a few years later by adding a car to my list of lethal weapons.
Despite my efforts I survived.
Mostly I can ride quite quickly in somewhat in violation of required limits. Without touching the brakes. Or a maybe little bit before entering a corner. If required, I can use a little bit of gentle braking anywhere.
And the only time I have dropped the bike I was practicing in a parking lot.
Advanced riding and Road craft. Appears to me to be about developing the skills to ride safely.
Trail braking is a skill which might occasionally be useful.
It’s not really about riding safely. Or so it appears to me.
I bought the Roadcraft book. I thought it was a pretty cost effective way of improving my riding skill and personal safety.
I also like to watch videos explaining Roadcraft.
Thanks.
It helps to improve my personal safety when riding.
A great and interesting write up. I agree, you raise interesting points. I watched a video about slow, look, press, roll a while ago, the author saying that it was the reason bikers ran wide in bends! Of course, if it was looked into further, it was the excessive degree of roll responsible, not the roll itself in a controlled manner!
Thank you for your contributions to the channel, always interesting. All the best
Never need to if you do the speed limit. Even so its a great tool to have when needed.
I don't advise trail braking in general for european roads (don;t have much experience elsewhere) because you cannot guarentee a safe road surface and you can't see all the way around the bend to ensure a good surface. What happens when you are trail braking and you hit mud, gravel, horse poo or something else to take that front wheel out? However, it can save a poor decision on a tight bend. Safe ride all.
I find in America they talk about trail breaking as if they are on a race track because they always mention race track training?
yes, it seems to be the case. I think training and riding in the US is quite different in many ways to our ways over here.
I have trail braked on public roads forever, even before I know that I was actually trail-braking. It was something that kind of naturally evolved when riding 1000cc V-twin sportbikes. I never crashed because of it, fortunately. Only after I started track riding after 30 years of riding, I learnt what trail braking was. And when I really dug deep into the subject and started experimenting with it, I decided that proper trail-braking is best left to the track. In corners with good visibility trail braking can be applied, but I am absolutely against teaching it to beginners, because trailbraking is not always a good idea. Especially in blind cornerd. The trend of american utube instructors selling it as the best thing since sliced bread, is all about views and subs (those oldtimers don't know any better, kinda vibe) and not about safety.✌🏻
I got a real fright not long after I past my bike test....I was going around a right hand 90deg bend.....and the bike started to run left.....I tried inputs for the bick to tighten up....but I was like the steering was locked....I was very lucky in the the left side of the road was a big wide lay by....but with some loose stones.....I gave up trying to get around the bend and decided I needed to brake as I was approaching a parked car.....I was gently using the front brake and was running straight at this time.....but the car was getting nearer.....but I was conscious of the loose stones.
I stopped 2 ft short of the parked car.
I asked lots of people why they thought I was running left and the steering went very heay...like it was locked.....I wasn't going fast....and had been around that bend many times.
People came up with all sorts of ideas....ie target fixation.....not looking into the bent and so on....none convinced me.
I was very lucky.....if the had been a curb on my left or a wall/hedge I would have been in a world of pain
I think I got the answer from an American book I bought some time later.
Not something anybody ever mentioned during CBT or full licence lessons.....apart from dont brake in a bend.....but not reason why not to brake.
I could not remember for sure how I approached the bend....but I think maybe I could have been a bit fast....and in my error and not knowing any better I braked....prob front brake....the book mentioned braking in a bend will make the bike sit up from its leaning over stance.....and the steering will be very heavy.
I am sure this is what happened to me.
I have spoken to 2 riders who have had the same sort of experience....neither new that a bike leaning over in a bend....if the front brake is used it will sit up and straighten up with heavy steering.....one was lucky like me one was not.
Of course it may have been something else.....but I wonder how many newish riders are not aware of why you should not front brake in a turn....and how physics change as the bike speed alters.
The reason your bike stood up and steering got heavy. You braked too suddenly and too hard. You were lucky you had space to be upright in a straight line. Trail breaking prepares the bike for a tight blind corner.
Front brake to slow a little before you tip into the bend, then ease off the brake gently to the speed you are comfortable with for the bend. When you see your exit from the bend and the bike is pointing to it accelerate out.
A smooth control of a motorbike or car is the best way to control it.
Sudden steering and braking can often be dangerous.
Motorcycles have been developing from racing. That technology has filtered down to road bikes. All techniques are valid to a degree. Trail braking does work on the road in some situations.
As this channel states people make mistakes, motorbike riders will find themselves at a bend travelling too fast. Trail braking is a valid technique to save your life when you make that mistake. Be safe and use every technique you can with practised efficiency to arrive home to your family.
Ironically, had you known trial braking, it’d have saved you (had that car been 2 ft closer…).
Suddenly applying the brakes causes weight to suddenly transfer forward - compressing the front tire, and standing it up.
Gradually increasing brake pressure transfers weight forward, but also, scrubs speed at a rate that makes the bike ‘tip in’ to the corner. This is why Moto GP riders will trial brakes into corners, to help tip the bike into the apex.
Think about what happens in a U-turn. As you turn the bike, you add speed to stand it up - and use rear brake to tighten the turn.
A lot of it has to do with counter-steering too, the angle of lean. If you lean the bike at 30 mph, and slow it rapidly to 10 without standing it up - it’ll fall over. Equally, lean at 30 mph and accelerate to 60 and it tries to stand up.
All that to say, if you had trial braked smoothly and gradually, but also pushed the handlebar away with your right hand to induce lean angle (counter-steer), then the bike might have made the corner. I say might, as it would’ve been going the right direction, but tires only have so much surface area. The more you lean, the less contact patch you have (and smoother your controls need to be to avoid a low side washout). This is why bikers get themselves off to the inside of the bike on corners - to move the centre of mass, and allow the bike to stand more upright for the same speed.
Hopefully now you understand where you actually went wrong, and realise it wasn’t what you or those 2 bikers thought. This is why I advocate for teaching trial braking to beginners, vs your panic braking when overcooking the corner. A lesson in bike physics wouldn’t go amiss either!
I have just come across this video, and have seen fairly recently in American Safety motorcycle Videos promoting "Trail Braking " as a safety method in cornering.
I have of course heard of it before regarding Track Riding, but have never understood its use on a Public road where there are so many more hazards about.
I have practiced Motorcycle Riding for 32 years without an accident, and my next practice is tomorrow.
As an Advanced Practitioner, I would never promote such an idea on a Public road for any other practitioner.
Leave this Trail Braking method on the Track.
I’ve been trail braking on almost every curve for over 40 years without a single problem. I’m “sneaky fast” too - ie I’m hard to keep up with without the need to do a lot of hardcore speeding. The only con I can think of, is that I never get to burn two rear tires for every front one like most of my buddies do. My front tires always wear out just as fas as the rears.
Yes I corner the same as you , to me trail breaking is great on the nice clean race track but on public road it’s about safety and smooth riding and we are on public road so there are speed limits , we are not in a race.
Most inexperienced riders lose the front tire by actually pulling IN on the inside handle TOO much and break the contact patch by pitching the line of the tire inside of the chassis line. No tire,not even moto GP can maintain control. The "push" keeps the front inline om the countersteer and maintains front tire contact patch and this control
Makes absolute sense, if you need to use trail braking you’re probably riding inappropriately for public roads. It’s easy to get sucked into it when riding with others and you question yourself but I’ve resided myself riding solo or with 1 or 2 trusted friends that ride largely in-line with the system
Trail braking is a track technique developed by racers to carry the maximum speed they can through the corners to gain crucial seconds advantage. The geometry of the bike pitched forwards also allows for faster turning ....again useful on a track. If corners are assessed properly on the road, then trail braking is unnecessary and irrelevant. In fact as you say, if you need to continue braking deep into a corner then you are travelling too fast for the corner. The argument of "What if I need to suddenly brake mid corner?" is also moot. If you are riding at the correct speed for the bend (what you can see...etc...), then that is irrelevant too. Something that doesnt seem to be considered is, with the weight having shifted to the front and the suspension being compressed, there is little left to deal with the unexpected road imperfections (potholes). Trail braking is a useful track technique( and sometihng for the toolbox) but an irrelevant and potentially dangerous FAD for default cornering on the road. Sloppy, lazy riding that masks poor observational skills.
Some things can’t be observed. More tools in your box the better. People need to know where the limits are of their machines.
@@chrisjames9688 True, which is why you ride with that considered too. If you want to learn the limits of your machine, take it to a track.
@@krytenLister exactly and then you will be able to apply it in an emergency situation on the road. We finally got there
@@chrisjames9688Trail braking and emergency braking in a corner are two different things
@@krytenListerIn what way?
Some of these YT "trail fakers" are now doubling back on what they said before, but still won't admit they were wrong to begin with.
4 years ago, it was "never use throttle and brake at the same time; always hold/trail off brake until the point your exit opens up." Now Motojitsu is demonstrating what is basically glazing your front brake pad with 1% brake while simultaneously rolling on and holding maintenance throttle through the corner. Canyon Chaser has posted an "I was wrong" video where he briefly admits that maintenance throttle "has its place," but fails to specify what or where.
At really lower speeds, where you can stop midcorner, I suppose covering brake means you can stop a couple meters sooner, but most people don't ride or drive that slow. Adding brake midcorner is rarely the solution, once you accept that we all enter blind corners at speeds where we simply can't "stop in the distance we can see." Motorcycle riders or soccer moms in SUVs, we all rely on signage. And the posted signage reflects the tightest part of the corner, so decreasing radius corners are not an issue which requires more brakes.
If you can't manage to make a midcorner correction without using brakes, you should probably fix that deficiency in your skillset. If dragging front brake to "change your bike geometry" is really necessary, why are cruisers even legal? We should all be riding sport bikes, only, with edgy rake angles.
@Mildy Productive thank you for your comments. Very interesting how some of these techniques come in and out of fashion! Ride safe, all the best
Motojitsu thinks he has reinvented riding and comes up with some ridiculous, sometimes even dangerous, concepts, like "keep the brakelight on, until you see the exit, meanwhile cracking throttle open to maintain speed" 🤦♂️
Or his "body, head, bike" concept, which makes absolutely no sense as vision dictates head first. Furthermore he advises against engine braking as "brake pads are cheaper than engines"... and feels it is mandatory to shift down in case of an emergency stop. In my opinion stopping is first, shifting to 1st is secondary at best. Can't reason with the guy either cos his ego is as large as the USA and after his mere 9 years of riding, he basically thinks he knows it all. In his opnion, everybody else, besides a few pro-racers, are dumb and stupid...
@@literal_lee Motojitsu is maybe a bit opinionated. I am more concerned with the modern "trailbraking" revolution which appears to have been started by Nick Ienatch of Champ School and then gobbled up by a lot of the major YTers in addition to Motojitsu.
They start by laying it out as "0% brakes at 100% lean angle." That's great. Perfect. Let go of the brakes to turn tight/fast. Right?
But no. They do a 180 and gush over how you can avoid leaning deeper by using/holding more brakes midcorner. Because lower speed = tighter turn radius for a given lean angle. Yes, a lower speed = tighter turn radius. But you have to shed speed gradually, so braking only tightens your line gradually. When SHTF, you will need to turn a lot tighter, a lot quicker.
When will instructors finally remember the bars can be tweaked and torqued to perform a thing called steering, which is way more capable of making large and quick midcorner line corrections than you could ever dream of with the brakes?
@@mildyproductive9726 I agree with you 100%. What you are referring to is the 100 points of grip 'doctrine'. I get the straight = 100% grip, full lean = 0%... What I don't get however, is how to determine the 100 points at all lean angles in between. There can not be a linear relation as there is an centripetal accelaration at play which is anything but linear, which pretty much reduces the 100 points of grip to a sales pitch IMHO.
But, anyhow, even if it's correct, it can not be applied to the public roads. I was amazed at this trail-braking fad myself.
Especially when it was sold as safe. In my opinion, nothing is safer than setting the speed before the corner, to the point that you can see.
@@literal_lee I've read some of Nick's thoughts on this. He's self-admittedly afraid to lean a bike as deeply as actual current racers, even on a closed track. He's quite clear on that point in one of his blogs. I think his teachings assume that potential students will never be able to lean the bike that deeply, either.
It doesn't take a professional racer to lowside a bike by leaning it too deep. But if the rider lowsides while in neutral throttle, he at least exceeded the tires. When you're afraid to lean and you instead stop leaning prematurely to tighten your line by holding brake, you're going to lose traction well before that point.
Of course, some of these new-age trailfakers ride cruisers that will still have traction leftover for braking even after they reach max lean angle. On such a bike, I suppose this ideology holds water, after you've reached the point where you're dragging stuff.
If you ride a sport bike, you could easily wreck your bike by adhering to the ChampSchool take on trailbraking. When taking corners fast, you may end up entering a corner faster than you wish but still have to let go of the brakes and roll neutral throttle to make it. But you won't, because you learned "a better way... to avoid leaning the bike."
Your speed into a corner as you know is simply dictated by your view and road condition. If you're trailing into a bend that means that your speed must be higher than mine as I don't, cancelling out the "stop in the distance you see to be clear etc" rule.
People need to understand the difference between trail braking and emergency/safety braking whilst in a bend.
Cheers. ☺
I agree, my views are very much that trail braking as a choice has no place in normal riding on public roads, but the ability to brake safety when cornering if needed is essential.
Thank you for your contribution, have always found your channel to be of great interest.
All the best
@@MotorcyclePWR Thankyou. Nice to speak to someone who's on the same page without all that bs ego we sometimes come across from those self appointed "instructors" over the pond .. Mentioning no names. 😉
I've challenged local trail braking enthusiasts to a ride out with me for a youtube upload comparison but no one's taken me up on it.
Thank you, indeed, some interesting perspectives out there!
It would be very interesting to see a comparison video of systemised riding vs a trail braking style. All within legal speed limits of course!
All the best
Simply put. If you are trail braking, you are going too fast for the hazard.
Trail braking is used to improve cornering speed in car motorsport racing not sure who decided it’s good for bikes but it’s likely where the idea came from 🫡