How was Durin reincarnated?
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- čas přidán 24. 07. 2024
- In this video, we look at the legend surrounding the reincarnation of Durin, Father of the Longbeards. How did it work? What did Tolkien write about it? And what did he change about it?
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I'm pretty sure the stubborn dwarves would recover durin's body no matter what else is going on around them.
Actually when we think of how invested they where in getting moria back, it is very very likely that it was because of Durins body, and not the wealth that lies in it, like thrains supposed reason was, or getting back one of the seven rings, like thorin claimed, But to get back the body of durin. This would be a far more realistic reasoning.
I imagine the dwarves probably had a special unit whose responsibility was to make sure that in the event of catastrophe, Durin's body was swiftly evacuated. Another possibility is that since Durin would not return to his body until an appropriate time, that if it happened that the dwarves had lost his body, he might not return until a better time arrived.
Join the Durin Tomb Guard! The most boring job in the world...except for the handful of times it isn't.
@@DarthGandalfYT I would hope they got to rotate in and out of the unit. 😁
@@DarthGandalfYT well it must of been fun when they lost Moria...
Considering what the Dwarves of the Blue Mountains did with the body of Azaghal in the Nirnaeth - it being carried away and the whole army leaving the battle as if they were conducting a funeral - the Dwarves treating the corpse of their king as of paramount importance has some precedent.
That's a good point.
But would a balrog even leave them to be able to do such thing? would they even be able to get to the body without dying. I personally think that they tried to get the body back, when they found out he wasnt there, after the rest had fled. They so desperately tried to concur moria several times, yet they all failed until after the one ring was destroyed.
@@aule10 Not leave them, I reckon a large number of dwarves sacrificed their lives to distract the Balrog as the body was safely evacuated. But in my above comment, I believe it was left there.
@@thomasalvarez6456 It is at least an interesting thing to theorize about, to bad Tolkien didnt have 100 more years to live in :D
I had thought of this also, I'm glad you mention it. It surprised me that the orcs would halt and let them pass and made me wonder if maybe the Boldogs recieved a similar treatment and as such the orcs knew what was going on and even they would have to respect that. If he was moving away from the idea that beings reincarnate to new parents it would only make sense that any other supposed reincarnations would follow likewise
This isn't that related to Durin but it is related to the dwarves.And it is how the dwarves don't really have a corrupted version of themselves.elves and men have orcs,ents have trolls,eagles have dragons(not really sure,but it is still possible) but dwarves have non so was Morgoth unaware of them until it was too late?
@Hlord1109 There are evil dwarfs, they are just extremely hard to corrupt, maybe even more than elves. I guess Morgoth never cared about dwarfs, Morgotn envied things that were beauty and "perfect", Dwarfs were a imperfect and flawed creation by Aule from what he thought the children of Illuvatar would be. I would imagine Morgoth would think them so "pathetic" that was not even worth to deturp them.
There were evil dwarves though that fought for Sauron
Or everything created is redeemable and capable of good and evil, just some have cultures more fertile for one or the other and dwarves are more neutral than most.
A Lebanese friend of mine knew a Druze man who believed he was the reincarnation of his own uncle; he could remember playing with his future self as a baby.
I always thought that Durins body being in Moria made sense. It’s location was lost after a long time. The balrog probably doesn’t know about it and doesn’t seem like the type of being to smash tombs, especially without direct orders. Orcs probably couldn’t get to it as I believe there would be failsafes if someone found the tomb. It’s probably a large stone chamber, hidden behind several walls inside of Moria, behind metres of rock. Maybe even a coffin or something, or more likely, a simple table with a kind of embalming section. The song of Durin, always made me think Khazad Dum was the literal tomb of Durin, it protected the body. Maybe there are runes or mithril doors (like the new gates of Minas Tirith) Surely, it was lost in Moria and being somewhat safe in there as no one knows where it is, or could find it. Only dwarves have a chance to find it but it was surrounded by orcs and a Balrog. Balin finding the axe and helm of Durin seems strange, even after five years. Surely such a treasure would have been sent off to Mordor or left in a hoard somewhere else. But no, it’s still there. I reckon they found out that the toon was safe. This all makes more sense than Erebor, it would have been even more paramount to take it otherwise. The Grey mountains just seems like you’re asking for it to be taken.
Durin VI is probably lying entombed somewhere near or in the Mirrormere.
The song of Durin lyrics make this probable.
Till Durin wakes again from sleep to lead his people to their former glory, a new peak they would reach, till the end of their days, in Moria, in Khazad-Dum.
If we go with the "zombie Durin" theory, it really adds some weight to the story of Azog and the orcs of Moria hacking apart Thror's body.
personally I think I prefer the reincarnation version of the canon, because this newer one makes the line of Dain meaningless, and means that Durin's line kept failing or dying.
When Tolkien was older I feel like he tried to much to make things more 'real' in a sense, replacing reincarnation with an immortal body, replacing the sentient but corrupted elf derived orcs with mere puppets of sauron or wild animals impersonating sentience, and in general trying to un-mythologize his mythology. I don't really like that, and I prefer the mystery and magic that lingers in things like reincarnation and corrupted man-elf hybrids.
I like the idea of Durin VII waking up under a pile of bones somewhere in the depths of Moria then chasing out the remaining orcs on his own and throwing the gates open to have dwarves come recolonize
Imagine being Durin and waking up in a coffin of hard stone while Kharad Dum was abandoned. Eww😬
I'm sure the dwarves made it able to be opened from the inside.
@@istari0 hopefully
Question related to dwarves: do we know the path Dwarves of the Erebor took when they fled form Smaug, or later when they fled from Moria? Looking at the timeline in LotR appendices, it’s clear both the Misty Mts and Mirkwood become overrun with dark things (Orcs, Spiders, etc) long before the Dwarves flee from Smaug. So wouldn’t Thorin and Co. already know that the Misty Mts had loads of orcs or that Mirkwood was dangerous if they previously went that way. Or did they go a different way altogether, and if so, why not back track that same safer route to the Lonely Mt?
Obviously that would ruin the story of the Hobbit, and the Hobbit was written before LotR and the full timeline was established, but I wasn’t sure if there was a definitive Canon Lore answer.
It's been a while since I read The Hobbit but if my memory serves, the dwarves had to make it to Erebor by a certain date to find the secret way into the Lonely Mountain so taking a longer northern route around the mountains would have taken too long. I also don't think they knew at that time that the evil creatures in Mirkwood had spread so far north.
@@istari0 I re-read the book over the weekend. This is perhaps the one instance where reading a book is faster than watching the movies lol. But yes, they do say they have to get there by Durin's Day (ties in with the theme of today's video). However they only find that out through Meeting Elrond in Rivendell, which the Dwarves only went there becuase of Gandalf. Prior to that though, it sounded like they had a pre-planned route based on Thror's map which they discussed during the Unexpected Party.
@@lawrencetalbot8346 I recall reading someplace that the dwarves that escaped from Erebor didn't go as one group and they ended up in various places with many dying along the way. Thorin ended up in the Ered Luin. There may not have been a safe way.
My guess would be that the Dwarves went away in greater numbers. Thirteen dwarves are easy picking for a band of goblins, but they'd think twice before attacking hundreds or thousands of Durin's folk.
Depending on just how bad Mirkwood had become by that point, it's possible they could have taken the old forest road and the high pass: an obvious first choice as the forest road was dwarf work originally and would have been preferred if it was still passable. However if it was too overrun it may well have been that the refugees passed south through Rhovanion and the Brown Lands to make for the gap of Rohan. This would explain how a number of Erabor refugees ended up in Dunland, including King Thror.
This whole Durin being the same person, doesn't work. Let's stick to just being reborn
That works too.
This is some interesting lore bits here about the Dwarves that makes them distinct and unique. Though one issue with this is that with each new given life span the dwarf forefathers would have to get new wives each time. But I presume Eru Illuvatar gave Aulë his permission for that aspect to be part of his world knowing the good it would do.
I have to admit that I don't personally take all this late Tolkien stuff quite as cannon especially if it contradicts the lotr itself. Especially as a lot of it is based on notes that were constantly changing and was never published by Tolkien himself. It is difficult to say what he would have settled on had he lived long enough to publish himself.
Order of Canon:
1 - The Hobbit and TLOTR
2 - The Silmarillion
3 - Unfinished Tales
4 - HoME
5 - Tolkien's letters
That's completely fine. In Tolkien's work, I think what's "canon" is rather subjective. I think the most important thing is consistency, and the truth of it is that a lot of Tolkien's later writings ruin that consistency.
Your Videos ar so good
Agreed
i always found it hilarious the first durin was called Durin the Deathless
only in the face
That is until Durin the Seventh who is the last one I believe.
The the way elves are reborn after their physical death kind of reminds of me in Bible what is given to humans who remain faithful and righteous abiding in Yahuah and Yahusha as their spirits will inhabit new bodies that will be eternal once the world is remade just as it was in beginning meant for Adam and Eve(Havilah) before the fallen angel Gadre'el ruined everything and sin entered and defiled the world. This time everlasting where no lawlessness or death exists.
not zombie, but king Arthur of Friedrich Barbarossa
Interesting when you consider how much dwarves place honor in battle, yet the Durins are outside significant war periods and geography. War of wrath? Where's the best Dwarven leader in history? Last Alliance, meh. War of the Ring? Nope.
This video has been very funny. I didnt knew anything about this.
everyone should go watch the lord of the rings movies from the early 2000's the day rings of power comes out
It's a real shame Amazon didn't watch this video before creating their second age "adaption" with multiple simultaneous Durins
They don't care and they will frame their desires in "their" show with their facade expressions of caring when they really plan on making it in their image and how they want it in their wicked perverted hearts.
To be fair to them, Amazon (and LOTRO for that matter) don't have the rights to what is written in Peoples of Middle-earth.
@@DarthGandalfYT
Then they shouldn't have even bothered especially if they plan on rewriting everything in their image. There is no being fair to them. Rebuke must be offered in the face of corruption. And they boast about it too. So no I will not be fair to them. I will be plainly truthful.
@@DarthGandalfYT true, fair point
The photo is a statue of Thorin not Durin friend... The courtyard statue is his brother.
Lets face it, most of us aren't watching the rings of power dumping on the legacy of Tolkien.
Love it, zombie dwarfs n elf's 😂
lol imagine durin the 7th just rolling up to Erebor like ya umm tf happend in the last how ever long iv bin dead because Khazad-dum is just........a mess because of that fire demon and my bridge is broken so i had to sneak all the way back across the western side of my own dam kingdom than i walked up to Gundabad turned out there were orcs there to so i had to sneak thru the misty mountians and turned up at the grey mountians thinking id find some of you there.....i was very wrong notice the singed beard and then i come here and you guys are just chillin...
dwarves of Erebor like...umm ya who are you
durin like your King reincarniated who else didint i just tell you i woke up in Khazad-dum and found my whole kindgom bassicly in ruins other than here and i hope the iron hills are still ok but ya im the king so who evers on the throne now sorry but gimmie the crown to and i need a bath new robes and lots of food
dwarves of Erebor like ok come in but we gotta do some research and see if anyone old enough to have known you back in the day that would recgonize you is actually still in middle earth
Durin like ya i guess we are stuborn people
Sounds like it would be a fun fan fiction.
@@DarthGandalfYT sorry i didn't see your response i haven't had my laptop in awhile and ya it would be an amazing fan fiction plus with the way Khazad-Dum looks in the rings of power no we all fully understand why the dwarves were never satisfied with any other home they had since losing Khazad-Dum i mean it was absolutely beautiful
@@phoenixmilburn6598 The light of Sun and Star and Moon in shining lamps of crystal hewn.
"I was very wrong notice the singed beard...."
0:42 The showrunners will address the storyline in their usual fashion: badly and from a position of near total ignorance.
I think Tolkien was on Acid when he wrote L.O.T.R , Hobbit etc.
Here’s a controversial topic to do that shouldn’t be. Was is typical for women to engage in war. First cover elves and than humans. To me it defeats the whole medieval, more believable feel it has. Not sure if I remember canon having 50/50 armies of men and women so the future of your civilization can be destroyed in one battle. Just curious on canon since I get mine from you guys, but I’m pretty versed in our history… thanks
There's no 50/50 armies in Tolkien's canon, but he does say women sometimes did fight, usually in defence of their homes or as a last resort. Individuals such as Galadriel, Eowyn, and Haleth fought in battle(s). A very notable example of women fighting is during the Wainrider Wars; a Northman rebellion was squashed while the soldiers were away largely because Wainrider women were trained to fight. But they're definitely an exception, not the rule.
Yea that’s what I figured. I just hate how it seems the only way to make strong female characters, is to make them masculine. Seems hypocritical. Your doing a great job, always look forward to your content man. You think of all the stuff going on in the background we’re interested in. Did you ever think of videos on what kingdom would defeat another during different ages. Like dale vs lindon or numenor vs 1st age elves? Always liked your war videos, thanks
Adaptation, please. The repetition is becoming irritating.
Oh there are canons in Tolkien's books. There are just many of them. What is not canon, however, is when computer games and the films deviate too far from the books to replace it with ridiculous inventions. The worst and most offensive such replacement is replacing the generous great-minded book-Aragorn with a doubting, vicious film-Aragorn.
Hm I think it was okay it wasn't offensive to me just different. You must understand it's made in film format and pacing and the people in charge were doing their best to respect the source material. You have to give Peter Jackson credit for his respect to Tolkien's world especially compared to the current regime and groups in charge who are disrespecting his world and lore constantly and boast about it in their narcissisticism as if they can do as they please without consequences and that they publicly claim out right there is nothing wrong with their wicked intent and acts which defiles his fictional world he spent a lifetime constructing. All for the lusts within their hearts as if they are the ones who rule it absolutely.
I actually think the film did that better. In the book he has not much development, while in the film he needs to grow into his destiny.
They are adaptations, they arent and never will be canon, the only thing that is canon is what Tolkien (JRR and by extend Christopher published).
PJ adapt the story to a modern audience and changed plot points and character traits to FIT HIS VISION of what could be the BEST ADAPTATION that would led to the BEST FILM possible. PJ main worry was not to be 100% accurate, but to have the best movie possible with the resources he had.
Not everything that is written in the text translates well to the screen, Aragorn is a good example, in the books we have a lot of pages explaining his backstory so we can understand the journey he is going trough and the mission he has, and we also had Tolkien other works to dig deeper into the importance of Aragorn on his quest to reclaim his throne, the film doesnt have that time, simple as that, the film by definition has to make things simple, not only for time constraints but also because most of the audience is made of casuals and the movie has to recover what is invested and give profit. Not only that, those casuals fans are also from a very different generation from Tolkien and some of the themes Tolkien relay in his legendarium they might not understand/agree, again, book Aragorn is a good example, most casual book readers and generally speaking, most young people read TLOTR and dislike Aragorn character as "arrogant". Now imagine what they would think if PJ adaptaded like that in his movies .....
There are good changes and bad changes, the love story in the Hobbit was stupid and made no sense, changing Aragorn from a man of a mission to reclaim his throne, sure of the importance of this goal, to one that doubts if he has the strenght to vindicate the mistakes that his kin have made in the past WAS A BRILLIANT MOVE by PJ and his team. Because it made Aragorn much relatable to the casual viewer, and the end point was still the same, he became the fair and just king he was meant to be, in both versions, the journey to that was different.
@@hierony5471 Aragorn was intended to be a character who was completely ready to fulfill his destiny already through all the trials of his earlier life. The reader learns about Aragorn by seeing him unveiled bit by bit through the eyes of other characters. They should not have changed that for the film. In particular, Aragorn would have never chopped off the head of the Mouth of Sauron.
@@istari0 Agree with the last part, but with the first I don't. I see it as him running and hiding away from his responsibility. That is my interpretation.