351 Small Block Dyno Shootout: Windsor vs Cleveland - HorsePower S16, E11
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- čas přidán 25. 06. 2024
- Part 2 of HorsePower's dual Ford 351 project, as the guys complete the build of a Cleveland engine and then turn their attention to the Windsor engine. Using some original parts and aftermarket heads and intake, the guys transform the Windsor into a better-performing Clevor (or mock Cleveland).
00:00 - Intro
00:50 - Cleveland Engine Rebuild Continuation
05:54 - Look at the Changes Made
06:58 - Dyno Shootout
13:27 - Carburetor Tech
PARTS USED IN THIS EPISODE:
Accel: Distributor, Street Billet, Magnetic Pickup, Vacuum Advance, Ford, 351W, Each
More Info: pntv.us/pb_pt_6555
Accel: Spark Plug Wires, Super Stock, Spiral Core, 8mm, Black, Straight Boots, Universal, V8, Set
More Info: pntv.us/pb_pt_6556
AEM: Dyno Shaft On-Vehicle Dynamometer, Pro Series, Yoke, Chromoly, 1.886 in. Seal Diameter, Kit
More Info: pntv.us/pb_pt_6577
ARP: Oil Pump Driveshaft, Ford, 351W, Each
More Info: pntv.us/pb_pt_6560
ATI Performance Products: Harmonic Balancer, Super Damper, Internal Balance, Steel, Black, Ford, 289, 302, 351C, 351M, 351W, 400, Each
More Info: pntv.us/pb_pt_6558
Canton Racing Products: Oil Pan, Street/Strip, Steel, Gold Iridited, 6 qt., Front Sump, Ford, Cleveland/Modified, 351/400, Each
More Info: pntv.us/pb_pt_6546
Cometic Gasket, Inc.: Clevor/Yates Style Head Gasket Passenger Side / Driver Side
More Info: pntv.us/pb_pt_6574
Comp Cams: Camshaft, 284HR, Magnum, Hydraulic Roller, 284/284-224/224-.566/.566, Ford, 351C, 351M, 400, Each
More Info: pntv.us/pb_pt_6561
Comp Cams: Motor Oil, Break-In, Mineral, 10W30, Quart, Set of 12
More Info: pntv.us/pb_pt_6565
Comp Cams: Rocker Arms, Fits 7/16 in. Stud, Full Roller, Chromoly Steel, 1.73 Ratio, Ford, 351C, 429, 460, Set of 16
More Info: pntv.us/pb_pt_6575
Comp Cams: Thrust Plate & Bearings Ford 289-351W Machining Required
More Info: pntv.us/pb_pt_6570
Edelbrock: Carburetor, Edelbrock 94, 2-Barrel, Manual Choke, 3-Bolt Flange, Zinc-Dichromate Finish, Each
More Info: pntv.us/pb_pt_6582
Edelbrock: Carburetor, Performer, 750 cfm, 4-Barrel, Square Bore, Elec. Choke, Single Inlet, Gold Iridited, Each
More Info: pntv.us/pb_pt_6581
Edelbrock: Carburetor, Performer, 750 cfm, 4-Barrel, Square Bore, Manual Choke, Single Inlet, Black Powdercoated, Each
More Info: pntv.us/pb_pt_6580
Edelbrock: Timing Chain and Gear Set, Performer-Link, Double Roller, Iron/Steel Sprockets, Small Block, Set
More Info: pntv.us/pb_pt_6572
Edelbrock
Timing Cover, 1-Piece, Aluminum, Natural, Gaskets, Ford, 4.7L (Non K-Code), 5.0L, 351W, Each
More Info: pntv.us/pb_pt_6571
Edelbrock: Top End Engine Kit; Power Package; Top End Kit; 438 HP; 9.5 in. Deck; Incl. Intake/Cleveland Heads/Roller Cam
More Info: pntv.us/pb_pt_6559
Edelbrock: Valve Covers, Signature, Stock Height, Steel, Chrome, Edelbrock Logo, Ford, Boss, Cleveland, Modified, Pair
More Info: pntv.us/pb_pt_6569
Ford Performance Parts: Kit Oil Gallery Restrictor 351 Ford Racing #M-6010-R351/R352/S351/V351/W351
More Info: pntv.us/pb_pt_6551
Ford Performance Parts: Oil Pan, Steel, Black, 5 qt., Ford, Mustang, 351W, Each
More Info: pntv.us/pb_pt_6557
Ford Performance Parts: Valve Covers, Tall, Cast Aluminum, Polished, Ford Racing Logo, Ford Cleveland, Modified, Pair
More Info: pntv.us/pb_pt_6567
Hays: Flywheel, Steel, 164-Tooth, 30 lb., Internal Engine Balance, Ford, 289, 302, 351C, 351W, Each
More Info: pntv.us/pb_pt_6552
Holley: Carburetor, Speed Demon, 750 cfm, 4-Barrel, Square Bore, Mechanical Secondary, Dual Inlet, Each
More Info: pntv.us/pb_pt_6576
Hooker Headers: Headers, Competition, Full-Length, Steel, Ceramic Coated, Ford, Mercury, 351C, 2V, Pair
More Info: pntv.us/pb_pt_6549
Hooker Headers: Headers, Competition, Full-Length, Steel, Ceramic Coated, Ford, Mercury, 351C, 4V, Pair
More Info: pntv.us/pb_pt_6550
Mallory Performance: Distributor, Magnetic Pickup, Vacuum Advance, Ford, 351C, 351M, 400, 429, 460, Each
More Info: pntv.us/pb_pt_6566
Mallory Performance: Spark Plug Wires, Pro Sidewinder, Spiral Core, 8mm, Stock Boots, Ford, Mercury, 302/351W/351C/351M/400
More Info: pntv.us/pb_pt_6568
Pertronix: Distributor, Flame-Thrower, Magnetic Pickup, Mechanical Advance, Black Cap, Oldsmobile, 260-455, Each
More Info: pntv.us/pb_pt_6547
Probe Industries: Pistons, Forged Dome, 4.030 in. Bore, Ford, 351C, Set of 8
More Info: pntv.us/pb_pt_6573
Trick Flow Specialties: Intake Manifold, Single Plane, Aluminum, Natural, Square Bore, Ford, 351C, 5.8L, 2V, 4V, Each
More Info: pntv.us/pb_pt_6548
Trick Flow Specialties: Intake Manifold, Single Plane, Aluminum, Natural, Square Bore, Ford, Clevor, 351W, 5.8L, 2V, 4V, Each
More Info: pntv.us/pb_pt_6564
Eagle Specialty Products: Ford 351W, 4340, Crank, ESP Armor Finish
RockAuto.com: Full Gasket Set, 351C, Water Pump for 351C, M, 400M - Auta a dopravní prostředky
They sure did the Cleveland dirty.
Just build the damn things the same way! That’s a comparison
Back in the 80's no one would think of the 351 Windsor as a performance engine. A lot has changed.
That's exactly what i thought!...i would always choose union Cleveland steel over Canadian.
Funny we knew that there was huge potential in the 351W, BUT the 70's smog shit killed the power... The 69-70 351W 4BBL with its High Compression and decent (for factory Iron junk) was a Camshaft away from REAL power... The sad thing is they basically built a Cammed "400" (of the 351M400 family) what they got for power was nothing new there either...we built plenty with 4V intakes, better cams, and better pistons, that went into "4x4 Work Trucks" all over our area...
things ain't changed that much
I was expecting a stock Windsor 351 vs a stock Cleveland 351...🤔
As was I.
Me to
umm me too
That's what I expected and wanted to see, but these guys never seem to do a REAL comparison...
Exactly didnt they have a 351 marine motor aswell
This is literally an apples to oranges comparison.
On next week's episode stay tuned as the Saturn V Moon rocket engine on a Dyno versus Chrysler slant 6 with one barrel carburetor.
AmericanThunder 😂
@@bigboreracing356 Maybe. It'll be a close one for sure.
Its apples to staples...
This is not literally apples to oranges. There was neither apples nor oranges anywhere in this video.
That Cleveland build needed much more compression and much more cam to really shine. That single plane intake manifold is designed for much higher rpms than the engine was built for. If you had went with 11.5 or 12:1 pistons and a 7500+ rpm camshaft, it would have really woke up with the 4v heads.
and the 2v/4v intake runner mismatch didnt help either.
Agreed total mismatch of parts. I expected these guys to know better.
@@todds5956 Also, if you are going to test the 4V head, why not the quench chamber?
@@TheRowdyJ I was immediately like “why those heads” when I saw it they might’ve just grabbed leftover stuff from other builds for the Cleveland in a fair fight Cleveland easily takes it
I ran a stock 4V C engine to 6500 all the time...never a miss
I had a 72 Gran Torino Sport with a 351 2v 4 barrel back in 1979. It belonged to an elderly lady that was in charge of our public library and she bought it new from the Ford dealership in town and the did all the service on it. It only had around 28,000 miles on it when I bought it. All I did was put a set of headers on it. Had some work done on transmission and put a rear end out of a ford pick up and some rims and tires. And at 17 years old I had a Hot Rod. When I sold it in 1983 it had 120,000 miles on it and I took great care of the car there was not even a scratch on the car. That's one ride I wish I had not sold. Those 351 Cleveland were great engines if you kept them serviced.
They didn't make a 2v four barrel carburetor just a 2bbl the 4v is more correct no such thing as a 2v 4bbl 😂
@@timothypriest4791You beat me to it and darn it I just learned that fact today along with about everything I know about Cleveland’s.
Would have been interesting to leave them both with factory stroke and compare the benefit of the canted valve head on the cleveland vs the traditional style head on the windsor.
That's what I was originally expecting! Stroking it invalidates what I wanted to see. Still a great build though.
Adding 'Cleveland' heads says it all, the canted valve heads are much better than the Windsor heads. So, they didn't bother...
they took what was good about the c and added it to the w THEN stroked it. there are tons of good after market heads for the w. the 3v from chi on that cleveland would shit out windsors all day long.
@rowdy hansen the chi heads are sweet. Aren't the kaase heads similar? I think they're a canted valve head and they flow like crazy.
@@ericrobison8591 yeah. the 400 or whatever cfm. the p38s would be a great candidate for the stroker windsor. have them cnc'ed, a 400 ford with the kaase heads vs a stroker windsor with p-38s would actually be a shoot out.
I am confused. What were they comparing ? A stock Cleveland rebuild with a hotter roller cam , and in my opinion, a poorly chosen intake manifold. In the other corner a Windsor, that is no longer a Windsor. With the entire Hi Po parts book thrown at it. A better " Comparison " would have used a Windsor, with the best " stock " Windsor heads, same cam profile, same intake design, same C R, and perhaps most importantly. The same cubic inches, and equivalent dollars spent. I feel confident, in a fair fight. The Cleveland would have prevailed.
It seems like an Edelbrock AD to me!
@@bigboreracing356 The Windsor had Cleveland heads so all thais proves is Clevelands are still better
@@bigboreracing356 People are making over 600+ HP with stock bottom end 351 Clevelands with the Stock Iron 4v Heads lol. . So yeah they do make more power than a stroked Windsor.. And the 408 had Cleveland heads on it. Youre sadly misinformed buddy..
@@stevesabbagh793 Ad to the part vendors...
I'm comparing this apple to this orange and I've concluded.......they are both fruit.
This whole "comparison" was not much of a comparison.
No it was not a lot left out on info as well as one being longer stroke.
I like how they neutered the Cleveland with a single plane intake and put a dual plane on the "Clevor." No shit the one with the single plane is going to fall on its face in a street driving scenario.
@@TwentytenS4B8 single planes have come a long way and can be extremely streetable. Single planes will make a ton more power.
@@springwoodslasher79 Overall design and alloys have much improved but the same basic concept still persists. A single plane intake is for a higher RPM power band I.E. racing. A dual plane is more suited to regular street driving with the occasional drag strip trip. The guys on Engine Masters have done a comprehensive testing episode outlining this.
The problem with the intake on the Cleveland was port size. I bet it is the size of the 2v intake ports not the size of the 4v intake ports. Power should have increased not decreased by adding increased airflow and it didn't. That says to me the airflow between the 4v heads and intake wasn't increased. I figure the opening up to a bigger size port in the head slowed the air down quite a bit from the smaller intake ports on the intake. Either way there is no comparison if the intake ports do not accurately match the cylinder head ports. Considering the smaller 2v heads made the most power the intake ports were sized to match the 2v ports.
Senseless comparisons, this show is just a aftermarket advertisement!
Cleveland, canter valve heads and ports, 11 to 1 compression these things come alive, along with a little exhaust port mods
I've seen street Cleveland's make way more power!! With the right combination of parts, pound for pound the Cleveland will outshine the Windsor when it comes to building power!
Cleveland has more bang for buck
Even 2V Cleveland heads are thoroughly decent . May as well deem them GM invention since Knudson, Shinoda both lured from there.
For hp and torque cleveland all the way yall just touched the power that motor can make it can be made way meaner
ahmen!!!
I'm 57, a local engine builder told me the same thing about Cleveland heads 30 yrs ago ,lol
At 5500 rpm each cylinder is firing 11 times a second... That's 2 revolutions of the crank per firing, so to acheive 5500 rpm, the crank spins 22 times a second, working in unison with the cam and heads to control the flow of gasses. These engines doing this for hundreds of thousands of miles is truly impressive.. God i love combustion engines.
Love to see PowerNation do a US-built 351C vs an Aussie spec 351C ! Our 302 clevelands provide the 6" rods and small port 56cc heads that produce a pretty unique and punchy motor. PAVTEK do a nice CNC rework of the 302 C head that works well with the combo. 💪💪
I've run a 351C shortblock with 302C heads and a nice mild Elgin E-907-P camshaft (220@50 & 505 lift) and it was brilliant. Very torquey midrange and a peak of about 5500rpm. Very nice street motor for very little effort, and could've taken a 230 to 240@50 camshaft easily for more topend.
Unfortunately that wouldn’t happen because they’d be shit scared that an Aussie built 408 stroker would eat that Windsor for breakfast.
i once worked on a 70 mach 1 with an aliminum rod 388c in it. 1050/4500 on a sheet metal intake, 1:14, chromashaft, boss heads, 2" hookers, comp, msd, 514's, 13"/31's, c6/5000 conv and brake, much more. the car ran low 9.30's shifting at 8,500 with NO gas and it tripped the 60ft with the back wheels. pretty decent running cleveland i think.
I've learned so much this episode. A stroked motor with aftermarket heads and cam and intake can beat a stock motor with just a cam! Amazing!
What are they comparing here? The Clevland 2V vs 4V made sense. Why not just compare different engine mods to this engine. And if the Cleveland was made for the street why the single plane?
The Clev build was a total mismatch of parts. not only a single plane intake, but one designed to run 2v heads, and a smaller carb. Clev's are designed for high RPM power. If they had put the 4V heads with a 4V single plane intake and 850-900 cfm carb, with large tube headers, and a more aggressive cam, it would have made the same HP and slightly lower torque between 6500-8000 RPMs. I built one like this 30 years ago and got 507 HP@7300 and 447 ft.-lbs @5700. It was a BEAST!
@@sarcastomimic2683 it is like they were purposely trying to make the clevland look worse. I guess Edlebrock pays the bills so this was just a thinly veiled advertisement. Be nice if they said who was sponsoring the episode before hand.
@@numbnutz9398 I agree. They were promoting the 351 Windsor,which was stroked to 408 CID. No wonder it beat the Cleveland. There's hardly any 351 Cleveland's around anymore. If you do just so happen to find one they're pretty expensive to rebuild. You can find 351 Windsor engines no problem. These guys are just,basically advertising big names Edelbrock,ATI harmonic balancer & the timing pointer,whatever other companies they mentioned. Personally I don't really like this show. If you've ever rebuilt an engine,any engine performance or stock. They left 90% of the steps out. They didn't show degreeing the camshaft or measuring the pushrods,installing the adjustable rocker arms kit. These guys leave out alot of stuff. Makes people think they can just go out and buy all these parts and throw them together and it's gonna be great. Or like advertising that says adds 25% more power than stock. Then another one that says adds 25hp and another one that says adds up to 40hp and ...So on....by the time the engine was finished it should have about 2000hp. LOL!! The Chinese parts are the worst. One time a guy brought me a auto parts store rebuild Chevy 350 and a literal pile of parts. The Chinese aluminum intake manifold didn't fit and the Chinese chrome oil pan wasn't even flat and the bolt holes didn't line up well at all. Had to get the manifold milled and take an angle grinder to it so you could get the valve covers to fit.
clevlands were fords truck engine,built for torque,not,,racing.the windsor was the car/race engine.but the heads were crap.small/ strait valve train,no good.the 4v gtho falcons,ran at bathurst,those heads dont start working till 80 mph..the 2v & 4v heads have a hump in the exhaust,as i said,for torque,theres 'tongues',you can buy to smooth this out or grind them down,carefully..fact.a std 351 will run at 6k all day,where as a chev 350,or windsor,will lose its valve train.as there studded,.the 2v clevo is a very strong reliable engine,ive never had any problems with them,run forever,even when they use a sump of oil to a tank of juice,or,no oil pressure at idle,still go.which i think is a bad pump..chev 350 are a rubbish ,very old, engine design,cheap.454 better...but,,you cant beat dodge.i have a 340 r/t chall..i have a bronco 82,on lpg only,,351c,auto.stock,the 351 heads needed a valve job when i bought it,13 yrs ago,so i fitted 302c heads,12.1 comp,std,goes like a cut cat,cheap to run.never stopped except for 2 dead coils...all the tech has been there since day dot,to build well designed engines,but its production cost that limits what you get.desmodronic drive,ohc,3valves,fuel injection,alloy motors,all too expensive to sell cars..the range rover,layland,4.4lt,is an all alloy engine,very similar to a windsor.used in circle racing,,if,,you can find one..
@@phantomwalker8251 351W is a truck engine, it has 3" main journals, which create too much heat to handle high revs. The cleveland, on the other hand, has smaller main journals, which allow it to rev higher without seizing them. The "racing" version of the 351W block has smaller journals for that very reason. A 351W has shit flowing heads, even the best 1969-1970 351W heads won't touch a 351C 2v heads, let alone the 4v/boss302 style heads. So I'm not sure why you think a 351W is a race engine, while the 351C is a truck engine?? There's no "low end torque" in cleveland heads, the ports are huge. The 351W heads make tons of low end torque, by comparison, because, strangely enough, the ports are tiny by comparison.
the purpose of this video is to sell clevor parts for those gazillion 351w blocks out there.
right... because Edelbrock can't seem build an off the shelf set of Ford Windsor heads worth a damn.
Ford power for life! Old an new.
And AFR 205 will still outperform them.😂🤣
The Windsor block is better and a lot more available than the Cleveland. The canted valve heads will always out perform wedge heads of the same quality. I'm saying you can't compare AFR wedge heads with Cleavor heads unless the Cleavor heads by Edelbrock were professionally ported.
@@stevewelborn8744 I'm on the same page as you but for a different reason. I never liked the Cleveland 4V setup because the exhaust ports on those heads were so prone to cracking it was rediculous. I think the problem lies in inadequate coolant passage design to dissipate the heat.
I've had several cars with 351 Windsors and one 351 Cleveland and I'll take the Cleveland any day. The Windsor is a good engine but the Cleveland is in a class by itself, it is fast and tuff.
you said that right
Both are very sweet sounding monster engines! Music to my ears !!!
I worked for a ford dealer for 27 years , this combination is setup for failure, if you ever drove a ford torino with a 351 4bll cleveland factory , it had great torque and horsepower, you set this up for failure with the combination of parts.
yep this was a bias test
Im curious how this is a direct shootout with one being a stoker...
Its Like the guys who did coyote vs LS build but used a stock coyote intake manifold, stock rods, stock pistons..etc and on the LS they swapped intake manifolds, heads, cam, pistons, rods, had EFI then said "as you can clearly see the LS beats out the coyote"
It might be a cost thing, like the build cost ends the same since I believe Cleveland parts are more expensive then the Windsor's
@@jacobszymczak9323 thats what i was thinking there doing it by with a certain budget or something they arnt even building them the same so not really a shootout unless its cost related
@@reidmurnan6708 Hilarious, you no question have a bias against chevy.
I've never seen that comparison, furthermore the ls came with fuel injection...
Also Cleveland vs Windsor should have used a Windsor top end as well on the Windsor.
That intake manifold needed to be changed to the 4V version to really see the horsepower and torque of the Cleveland. 2V is right for the street for sure, but that 2V manifold is choking the potential of the Cleveland.
Problem with most factory two barrel engines they have lower compression heads vs four barrel have bigger valves . Lower cc vs higher cc
the 4v is a far better street engine then a 2v.
I would have also thought they'd jet that carb up or something to follow suit with the increased airflow.
@TheZbierman I agree with you there. Like the 4v can undoubtedly flow more, surely with more fuel it will get bigger numbers
The reality of it is the 1971 351 Cleveland is the most powerful small block from the factory. The boss 351 Cleveland was a factory 11to1 engine with 331 hp. The Windsor never even got close.
Even Ray Charles could see how dumb this is. A 408 Clevor with aftermarket heads vs a 357 Cleveland with stock open chamber heads. Wow, what a comparison.
Criss drill out Cleveland heads and put them on the Windsor 🤤🤤🤤🤤🥰🥰🥰🤩🤩🤩
Yeah, can't hardly beat a Cleveland. Unless you cheat. But these guys are here trying to make money. They want to sell parts. Many more windsors out there. So they sucker people into believing their narrative and fill their pockets.
@@bigboreracing356 right on. My 393c, with stock iron 4v heads made over 500 hp & 500 ft lb, easily.
Even if it were 351Cleveland v.s. 351 Windsor the Cleveland is going to win, however Clevelands are junk motors and tend to either warp their heads or completely vapor lock.
@ I have seen plenty
I feel like the Cleveland didn't get a fair shake.
They don't care....The 408 was obviously built for the kid on the magazines penny.
More Windsors than Cleveland blocks out there, hence will sell you more parts for Windsors.....
Cleveland for life! #Fordperformance
They showed us how to build a 400hp 2v for budget dollars. That's something good.
Maybe they should have used a set of ch3 heads on the Cleveland and a manifold to suit , the down port manifold !
The 71 Cleveland had 11 to 1 compression. It was by far the most powerful small block of it's time.
i would agree, my brother in law had a shop and one of the engine rebuilders was there one day and he agreed that the 351 cleavland was the best engine for playing with at the time, he loved it
I built a '89 351w for my little brothers 4x4 F250 last year. Underrated engine design so buildable it's not even funny. I just bought a 96 F250 4x4 and I can't wait to cam it up
This comment is super old but Bigdogs porting cuts open, ports and reshapes runners of factory ford EFI manifolds to give modern power with a classic look. This is a 351 intake with good info.
czcams.com/video/uouK38FbiRs/video.html
Guys, it's not a Windsor after you've converted it to a "Clevor." I think you have lost sight of the windsor/cleveland comparison entirely, especially after stroking the windsor up to 408ci ahd changing heads to a completely different design. What is the point of the comparison when you change so many things in such an asymmetric fashion?
I agree its a 357 vs 408 since they both wore 351c heads. the 408 got a bigger cam to boot so how is this a W vs. C comparison?
they did the same with the 460/454 duel..chev got everything,ford got,?,but then,doesnt need it..
T h e crank journals are entirely different as the Windsor crank has more coefficient drag over the smaller surface area of the Cleveland. The clevor idea is not new but has newer cheaper technology nowadays. Clevor's were always known to run like a raped ape
@@phantomwalker8251 YEAH Except in the *Budget Builds* the 460 got a 218/218 @.050 Cam w/.494 lift Whereas the Budget Chevy got a 228/238 @ w/ .540 Lift.... YOU OUGHT TO KNOW BY NOW, *NONE* OF THESE COMPARISONS ARE *FAIR* - FYI I have built similar year Chevy 454 vs. Ford 460 with Basically Identical Grinds and intakes...Honestly there isn't 10-15hp difference...
Then on the "Power Build" they put bigger heads on 454...I could not find the cam specs....
I was half excited for this but jeez you couldn't have disappointed more
You Guys are great!!!!! Thank you for that info!!!!
Accurate and precise! Holy smokes
Next we are going to have an Olympic Runner race my grandma...
😂
Hahahahaha
But did your grandma used to be an Olympic runner ? That wouldn't be fair !
I, like most of the commentators, am lost with this comparison. I am a 351w fan but you can’t make one a stroker, and leave the other stock. Why not just bore the Windsor and have em both about 357 cu? Would’ve been more interesting.
We had twin 351 Cleveland’s installed in our 304th Rescue boat with 211 Hamilton Pumps. Great performance for the PNW.
That was interesting guys. Answered a lot of questions for me.
My old 4V Cleveland redlined at 7,500 RPM with a similar set up. They left 2,000 RPM's on the table.
Kodiak660 the power curves were dropping like a rock. No reason to go further
@@Highstranger951 It's called tuning and proper set up.
They built this for torque which is not the proper way to build a 351C, especially those 4V heads. Too little compression, cam and fuel IMO. They would have been better off comparing 2 Windsor builds.
Kodiak660 you’re funny
@@Highstranger951 because they put the wrong cam in it for the 4v heads.
With those heads, there was no "Windsor" in this comparison!
Nice video. These guys know how to work the wrenches.
I like how it's an almost stock cleveland against a stroked, higher compression, higher lift windsor with aftermarket cleveland heads :P
if anything this proves the cleveland is superior with the numbers it did get, even though they were lower, it was at a great disadvantage, comparitavely
🤣🤣 what is this amateur hour!?
You really need to study up on building Cleveland’s.
Worst comparison in the history of engine building. 🙄
Yeah. I was dissapointed with the Cleveland build...the right cam turns that motor on so well.....
Yeah, totally. Really not impressed. We have some stellar 351Cs here in Australia and some great aftermarket stuff. They made the C look like a dog. Try a 351W with stock 351W heads and see what engine makes power.....
These guys are the janitors
@@marvingross8151 They are so good at that, they swept away my comment lol. Gone
These guys are clueless on Cleveland's...The 351C was designed to be a world-class beating engine, but arrived on the scene too late. The emissions requirements caught the designers off-guard. The engine we see here is the remnant, a last gasp, a making do of what's left of what was once great.
The 351C had all the elements that was learned thus far, four-bolt mains, the bore/stroke ratio, canted valves for 2.25 intakes, giant ports, closed "quench" chambers...it had everything...but had ONE "fatal" flaw. Someone within management made it a point, that under hood space was at a premium, & insisted that the exhaust manifolds "hug" close to the block. Somehow, some engineer while designing the heads, "curled" the exhaust ports to placate this "request" for tight fitting manifolds. Along the way, this one choice sabotaged the whole thing... no one noticed...the exhaust gasses would "stall" & "tumble" on the floor of the port, similar to a stalling aircraft wing, rendering a third of the port "useless" for flow.
for our next comparison you ll see how a stock 4.3l gm v6 compares to a 460 v8 with a supercharger.
THIS is funny 😂😂😂😅😅
Nice to see modern day looks at a clevor setup. I built several with parts from bill Yates out of oklahoma when it was hard to get a decent head on a Windsor. Thank you guys. I still have tons of Cleveland heads if anyones Interested.
Stoke the Cleveland to a 393 or 408 and use the 4v heads. The stock 4v heads flow 275cfm according to Richard. They like compression and camshaft.
I really enjoy the product highlights at the end of the episodes because they are very informative.
Soooo a 351 vs 400 “shootout” ?? If the Windsor has a 4” stroke, not an even comparison.
The Windsor has 4 inch stroke and Aftermarket heads and the Cleveland is built all together wrong, give the Cleveland some compression and 40 degrees of timing and even with the street cam it would pull 400 hp!
Menin Black up
I have an old school clevor build! Thanks a million for this video! Now I know I have options if my engine needs parts/ upgrades
This was a real fun watch.
I purchased a 1971 Mercury Cyclone with a 10.75/1 comp ratio Cleveland, it was a very early 71 built in 70. I had a lot of trouble with the carburetor and the dealership did all they could to make it work. I finally found someone who fixed the third one the dealership put on. The car had a c6 and there was no Windsor that could hold a light to it at all. Note even close. I had a 72 Windsor later on and all it could do was drink gas. Yeah if you give the Windsor 50 more cubes and another 10% more compression. I never ran my Cleveland 7500 rpms, yeah you suck when you do a dyno shootout.
Will there ever be a true apples to apples comparison amongst engine builds? It must be a taboo voodoo sin curse to ever do it correctly.
Joe Dduncan excellent point!
Not as long as sponsors are supplying the parts!
You have to watch Engine Masters to see that happen.
Horsepower monster had a nice vid of carb vs efi. They were not equally matched but at least it was a close comparison and decent video.
yep watch engine masters
Love these shows
I LOVE IT!! TOTALLYAWSOME BUILDS!!!!!!! GREAT FOR STREET AND/OR STRIP.
They put 2v and 4v Cleveland heads on the motor but they were both open chamber. I would've loved to see the closed chamber 4v head with the big ports on that Cleveland!
i think you can find those in Austrailia.
WOW the equipment you are using to rebuild an engine is amazing! I do all that with a rag, some gasoline, oil, gaskets and an adjustable wrench.
Everyone complaining about the comparison, I just like to watch the engines get built
Somewhat over my head but fascinating to watch.
So it’s a stock stroke and bore Cleveland against a Windsor that’s been stroked, and rather than Windsor heads it has Cleveland style heads.
How is this a Cleveland/Windsor comparison?
I expected to see both completely rebuild to stock form and same carb same make plugs and wires
I'd like to see the Clevo with the 393 stroker and a set of 3V alloy heads.... closer comparison.
I would like to see the 4V Clevo head on the same 408 short block as those Edelbrock heads with the correct cam to match! The 4V's would smoke those Edelbrocks easily and likely equal the 3V heads! This whole test is bogus! The correct cam for 2V heads is totally incorrect for 4V heads! I learned that way back in the 80's!
@@stevesabbagh793 A set of the mpg port plates will improve performance on the 4V heads by straightening out the airflow through the runners, too. They actually flow higher cfm numbers with the plates in place, especially at low to mid rpm, thus you gain not just high end hp, but more power over the entire curve.
I built a 393 Cleveland with Edelbrock heads, hyd roller, Performer RPM Air Gap, 750 cfm Quick Fuel carb on 92 octane, MSD ignition and made 500 whp and 475 wtrq in a 71 Pantera. That car was a hoot.
Or a 408 Cleveland stroker with the same cam and comp both engines with the same brand of heads like edlebroock Windsor 190cc vs the Cleveland edlebroock heads would have been better
Love the Windsor!
Nice clevor.. sweet sounding engines
This is one of those rare times that I wish they had spent more money.
The Cleveland needs a set of CHI 3V heads and a Parker Funnel Web intake.
The Australians are the best at Clevelands.
The best CHI head for you money is the DS208 and the CHI intake, I have made made over 540tq and 670hp on pump gas with out of the box parts and a flat tappet cam. I still have the original developmental heads in my shop, These heads and intake made best power with 17degs of timing.
@@racerd3801 im in aus and own a 408 stroker cleveland in a xr gt rep. Ill be lookin at an ally head top end as i currently have flowed 2vs and will be upgrading in the new year. Any idea where i can find out more about those heads you speak of?
@@racerd3801 I don't think Parker is even in business any more, maybe they got bought out by CHI ??
One thing is for sure, if John Kaase is willing to put his name on a CHI equipped engine then it's the best there is.
@@Ricks408 have a pair on my 351c in an XF ute..chi 3v 208cc heads (ds208) 60cc or 67cc chambers... chi Pheasant Creek, Vic, 3757 ph 03 5786 5687..about an hour north of Melbourne. start at $2500 for a pair of bare heads. chiheads.com.au cheers
@@Ricks408 or you could call Higgins Racing Heads in Dandenong (03) 9768 3902 for his alloy cnc cleveland heads.. another fine choice.
The mismatch between the 2V intake manifold and 4V heads would screw up the air flow.
I rebuilt a Mach 1 351 C for a client 20 + years ago. He came in with
4V heads and a request for a 'tune' but he wanted extra power but nice to drive round town. Swapped out the 4Vs (someone snapped them up), got a pair of untouched 2V heads from a wrecking yard for $100 and let a head shop go to town on them. A full rebuild, blue print & balance, Rdelbrock Performer RPM inlet manifold & custom 1 5/8" extractors etc, followed by a dyno tune.
At the end of the job we had an engine that pulled like a train from 1500 to about 6000 rpm 80% of torque available @ 2000rpm. Coupled with a 5 speed manual transmission and it became easy and economical to drive around town but a useful 360 hp when needed..
Good job 👍
How is this a fire comparison 😳
They compared ford apples to ford oranges. The Cleveland rod and main journals are better suited for high RPM along with the heads, a big cam with 10-5-1 compression ratio would have suited the Cleveland but they knew that maybe to show what happens when you build a RPM motor two torque motor specs? The 408 cid Windsors motor with long stroke large rod and main journals plus a complete matched set top motor kit with a below from Edelbrock , 6100 RPM cam from you guest it a perfect combination made the expected power at the expected RPM. It's a good motor build. The Cleveland build is straight out amateur junk. Nothing works together and really need to select a better cam and the compression ratio 9-8-1, come on man!!!!
Typical for power nation🤣🤣🤣🤣
To me it seem nowadays they’re more worried about advertising parts then teaching like the old days
Kinda pointless, they coulda compared the OEM 69’-‘70 351W head Windsor block to Cleveland 351C 2v and 4v.
YES thats right
Ford already did that...
I LOVE YOUR CHANNEL. I LEARN SOME THING NEW EVERY VIDEO!!!!!
Wow that last run was awesome you could hear the difference after you backed it down 2
They were still running the smaller 2v port intake on the Cleveland, which in my experience always loses power when bolted to the big port Cleveland 4v heads and of course the 2v heads had a better power band. Poor Cleveland could not breath right, think deviated septum.
Guaranteed it was starving for fuel too.
"Port mismatch"
they should have done the 4v heads correctly, along with a strip dominator intake and a 900 cfm carb. that would turn some numbers
@@haydenohrmund2915 Fully agree. Give the Cleveland what it was made for, for not much more then they spent on the 2v/4v open chamber iron heads, and let it run.
Damn , been told my whole life 4v over 2v for any application . Lol that junkyard knowledge doesnt pay .Thanks for the clarification guys.
That is not a comparison. the 4V would trounce that 2V with more plenum and/or more cam. You could even have a mild street cam with alot of lift and recover most of the torque and make more power.
@@blackopsrocks Cool thanks i do appreciate proper knowledge or at least something that could lead research. My mind can see the build they did in a 2wd bullnose for street fun I actually think that would work well ,and the set up you described in a fox like an 84-86 ltd for some strip work.
Add to the previous reply that they were still running the smaller 2v port intake, which in my experience always loses power when bolted to the big port Cleveland 4v heads and of course the 2v heads had a better power band. Poor Cleveland could not breath right, think deviated septum!
What you were told was correct. You need the other parts to support the heads.
@@BloodRaven1969 I see these jokers build stuff and just cannot believe they dont know how to put a combo together and make good power. I was floored with the 460 series and 10 grand into the thing they just narely make 500...stupid.
I saw 351 and I knew right away that I had to watch it
AWESOME FOOTAGE
Turn a Windsor into a Cleveland add loads of go fast parts and it makes more power an almost stock Cleveland with iron heads Go figure ! Did you guys get paid to do this
I was under the impression that you were going to run 351 Windsor to 351 Cleveland, not a 408 stroker with aluminum heads, clevor heads. In order in my opinion to make a fair comparison, you should have had 351 Windsor heads on that engine. It's my honest opinion that that Cleveland is a way stronger engine than the Windsor. Yes the Cleveland got a roller valve train, but basically that's it other than over bore
Couldn't upset the Chevy guys, now could they. 😉
Any 350 70 vintage vs 351 70-71 4v would be the real challenge. Boss 351 vs LT1.
So, when someone asks me which engine they should use, a 351 Windsor or a Cleveland, I can remember this video and tell them to use a Chevy 350. Why not? It's just as valid as this comparison was.
i grew up in the 70s and the 351 cleavland was great. not on gas but who cared back then. i also had a 351 Boss from a collision car that NO camaro could even think of touching. those were fun times.
You need a different intake for the 4v heads. The intake you were using had too small of runners. you get "stall" in the intake port because of the larger area reduces velocity.
4V Clevo, add some Ci, aggressive cam 7k+rpm & it'll whip that alloy headed 408w
About 30 years ago a guy in Alabama made a conversion kit to put 351C-2V heads on a 289/302 Windsor short block. I built one for a 66 Mustang. Never dynoed it, but it was the runningest Mustang around here!
Both of them Ford small blocks are awesome motors
Doesn't look like an honest comparison. What gives... I thought PowerNation quit bs'ing the viewers. I guess not.
Their ONLY objective is to sell parts...
Power nation is just an ad for parts nowadays. Both of these engines underperformed. Big time.
This is a an old show!
Ok and?
@@doober4404 the original poster stated he thought they had stopped BS'ing. I just replied that it is an old show.
The engine shop where I work, I'm gonna see if they will do this, 1st up 283 Chevy from a 64 school bus vs full blown 358 cup race motor should be a great comparison.. why are you guys so nutty?
I want to see the video of you guys rummaging around a junkyard! Knowledge is power!
I LOVE SPENDING TIME WITH MY FORD RACING FAMILY!!!!
yeah i think that windsor could take a lot more fuel.. the torque difference on the cleveland was interesting but not out of line.. they are both strong engines but the windsor wasn't a fair comparison since it was stroked 50 cubic inches.
Test intentionally biased the engine with more advertiser donated products. Showcase the 4bbl Cleveland where it was designed ro shine . High RPMs.
I just find it interesting what can be done, depending what you have to work with. A real comparison, no. But it's still cool to see these guys compare them. It's fun.
This is a very informative channel
What am I missing here? The video title perfectly implies a shootout between a Windsor and Cleveland, all else mostly equal. How is 408 inches anywhere equal to 357? I was expecting effectively identical builds on the factory heads, worked equally to see which design might be inherently better, if either.
Why not put a toddler in the octagon with an MMA champion on drugs and in a pissed off mood while you're at it?
Hold on im lost you did a basic rebuild to a 351c and BUILT a 351w cam heads the whole 9 and then compare them WTF over....
maybe there canadian,.??.but,id have a mild 460.with alloy heads,pump,weigh about same as a 351.twice the power.alloy heads,headers,2 plane intake,flat tops, mild/rv cam.run forever.
Yea and used open chamber heads for the cleveland. Never seen the closed head version.
The Cleveland got a rebuilt and the Windsor got a 3900 dollar top end kit on top of it being a 408🤦🏾♂️
@@bigboreracing356 ..you have a good point there sir👍😁
@@bigboreracing356 I know your upset you have never had a 351c that's not why I commented on the vid apples to apples should be apples to apples not a 1000$ rebuild vs a 6000$ rebuild and yes they put Forged rods in the 351c but for what? Under 10:1 lmfao come on man
Buen trabajo amigos, good job friends, congratulations from Mexico City
Nice video, you guys have a cool job....
So, with 30% bigger heads with the same small 750cfm carb didn't make more power, not surprised. Put a 850cfm carb on that 357c and you'll see a big difference. More flow more go.
Had you stroked the Cleveland it would have out performed the Windsor with the 4v heads on the Cleveland with the correct intake and cam
Man..they just assembled two engines in 5 minutes!
Makes you appreciate the grass roots CZcams guys more after watching this Spike TV level stuff.
Those were apples and oranges for comparison motor builds...
One of the biggest things I noticed is the fact they’ve got a single plane on the Cleveland, with only going to 6k they should of had a dual plane on it.
Шикарная мастерская,стенды,моторы,все ништяк пацаны,молодцы!!!!
straiten the flow