It's Got a 351 Under The Hood!!! | Ford's Different 351Cubic Inch Engines Explained
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- čas přidán 18. 02. 2023
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Ford has offered a 351 cubic inch engine in several different Mustangs dating back to 1969 and all the way to 1995 in the Cobra R. Saleen even took it a step further by using a 351 in the S-351 Saleen Mustang through 1999! Even though they have been around awhile, not all Ford 351 engines are the same. Follow along as Bill takes you through the history of the 351 and explains the difference between the Windsor, the Cleveland, and the M.
#351cleveland #351windsor #bigblock #smallblock #mustang
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You stated at the end that 351Ms and 351Cs share the bigger bellhousing bolt pattern (385 series). The 351M does, but the 351C absolutely does not; the 351C has the same bellhousing pattern as the 302/351W.
Also some of the earlier 400 clevlands could come with either pattern as well hence both casting marks at the back of the block
@@brentmeredith5295 Yessir. People posting stuff for views but passing on bad data is crap.
No, the 351m -400m shared the 460 bell housing pattern! They were both dogs, especially the 351m! I had one in a 77 Thunderbird! 15mpg, up hill, downhill, didn't matter! By the time you put any M motor in it, you should've put a 460 in it! There were millions of F150's with these motors! The 351m was a boat anchor! Shoulda just put the 400m in it! If you were really working it, a 460!! All the "M" motors were bastards! They oiled the top end of the motor before they oiled the crank! The only good thing about a 400m is a 460 would bolt to the bellhousing! For most people, the 351w had enough to get by, and still a daily driver! I pulled a 6300lb camper with a 351w!! Most of you people didn't work them! Pulled a 22' trailer decked with 1/8" cold roll with a bobcat and all the supplies for a day to the job sight! 5 years!
@@markmccarty9793 Easy with the exclamation marks hero, it's not that exciting of a topic. I said what you said. Reread it. I clearly stated that the 351C shared the same bell as the Windsors. There is also no such thing as a 400M. It was 351C, 351M and 400. And saying things like, "most of you people...." and assuming anything about any of us here is plain condescending. You don't know anyone in the comment section so get off your high-horse. If you wantbl to correct someone, correct them when they are wrong instead of reiterating what they said with similar wording. Also learn the nomenclature. Here is a good example of when to use an exclamation point and how to properly be condescending: "A 400M.... good lord!.....
I can see that you aren't intelligent enough to hit spell check! The 351m, 400m, 429, 460 shared the same bellhousing patterns, as well as gas milage! Start taking prevagen now, you're gonna need it!
The quickest way to tell the difference between a 351 C and 351 W is the thermostat. The Cleveland has the thermostat on the front block extension and the Windsor has the thermostat on the intake manifold.
That’s a good point. Another thing that is often overlooked is the mechanical fuel pump mount on the block. The Cleveland has 2 bolts vertically or top to bottom. The Windsors 2 bolts are horizontal or side to side. 🏁
I had a 4-bbl 351W in my 69 Torino that came alive with just the basic upgrades a 17 y/o kid could afford in the 70's.
I’d rather have the Windsor engine over the Cleveland engine. For if anything, ease of modifying, parts availability and so on. However, if you do some research you can make improvements to it to work better.
At 4.40 you say there were 2 versions of the cleveland head where as there was a third, the 302 Cleveland produced for the Australia/New Zealand market had closed chamber heads which was an easy increase in comp when fitted to the 351C block. Also the difference between the 2 barrel (or 2v) heads and the 4 barrel (4V) wasn't just the valve sizes but also the port sizing with the 4v having ports bigger than BB chev. The 4v motor was fitted to some GT Falcons in Australia but were suited more for racing as their massive ports and valves affected air/fuel velocity at lower rpms.
Australian Cleveland's are wicked i had one in an XD ute ran 12.49 1/4 mile in 1995 toploader, 9 inch and 4.65 gears at 7000 rpm street driven.🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺🇦🇺💪💪💪💪
The aussies had 302C and 351C. Not a Boss 302 either, it was a 302 with a 335 block.
@AmericanThunder we sure did also with 2V or 4V heads and open and closed chamber heads.
That's because you have to turn the piss outta it! The intake side flows 274cfm! Guess what a 351w flows with a Victor Junior heads and Heads? The biggest difference is the 5.969" rods! But, that heavy crankshaft and those 3" mains! Bui the block is .300" taller block has room for a 4" stroke without making it a hand gransde!
In 1971 Ford Australia built a 380hp 351c for the Australian Falcon GTHO , which became the worlds fastest 4 door sedan at 161 miles per hour .
Also installed in a Ute, which is basically like a Ranchero. A tire shredder.
Fastest in Australia 140 mph..dodge polara chp 1969 ..149 mph
Hmmm, Ford in America built the Ph3 Clevo rated at 300hp. 380 is an educated guess on what they should be. 161 mph? in your dreams. Knock of 20mph and that is about it. Still very fast. 161 hp.. need 500+ hp to go that fast. Racecars do it but not stock HO motors
@@ldnwholesale8552 well the GTHO had a number of different gear & diff ratio options for homologation for different race tracks
Wrong chevy guy@@ldnwholesale8552
My 1972 torino had a 351 Cleveland 4v. Loved it
Mine too.
Good combination. I had same. Very fast.
My dad had a 78 F150 Supercab for forever. It had the, as he called it, 351 modified 400. It had such a unique sound and you could hear it half way down the street even though everything was bone stock.
I heard that when Ford America stopped production of their 351 Cleveland, De Tomaso had to buy their 351 Clevelands out of Australia!! How awesome, the same motors that propelled the GTHO's & GT's also powered the Pantera's, Longchamps & Deauvilles!!
I bought an old field truck once from a friend's grandma and when I popped the hood I was expecting to see a 300ci straight 6 because it was an 83 F150. I'm not a mechanic and I don't work on engines. But when I looked, I saw a V8. And I thought it looked different than a 302, like bigger. That's when my friend told me it was a 351w out of an older Torino. Absolutely one of my favorite trucks ever. But one thing I learned is that nobody really knew the difference between the 351 engines because everyone had a different answer. Some people said the Cleveland just had different heads. Some people said they were exactly the same except one was cast in Cleveland and the other one in Windsor Canada. Other people said the M was modified and had the Windsor block, but Cleveland heads or crank. Other people said the W was a small block but the C was a big block. So basically I figured out that nobody knew what they were talking about. At least not when it came to my Ford.
The M in 351 M stands for modified , it's a 400 block with a 351 W crank as they share bareing sizes ! You can go the other way and get a 400 Windsor by installing 400 crank in 351 W for the same reason , same bareing sizes and bore spacing.
Currently rebuilding a 351c for my 1973 Cougar XR7 Convertible.
What the fiber glass broken on the bumper? Lol
Had one that was a 351 m
try the 400 cam in it solid steel lifters performance pistons, closed chamber heads 4160 or 4150 Holley carburettor, msd or procomp distributor, square bore manifold 2v351 performerLB extra large sump headers 2 and 1/4 inch pipe 2 into 1 exhaust 1 performance muffler anything like a flow master 1 stainless steel exhaust tip, czcams.com/video/ujwsjjZaSNY/video.html and you cougar could sound like this
The 352 FE is also the same displacement via the same bore and stroke. So in all actuality, Ford made FOUR engines with the same displacement.
Yes, all 352s.
that is a big block very not what were talking about = 390 427 type . so there .
@ronnieboucherthecrystalcraftsm the clevland & 400 are defanatly not big blocks. That's ubserd! Their is no argument one can have that says the 335 series engines are big blocks. Nun!
@@ronnieboucherthecrystalcraftsm 352 FE is a big block
@@jesseduke694 The FE's are NOT Big blocks. They would be considered a mid sized block. They do not have the bore spacing of ANY big block.
the 351c uses the same “small block” bell housing as the windsors. the 351m/400 for the most part use the “big block” bell housing pattern. you can say the 351m/400 is a tall deck 351c similar to the 351w being a tall deck 302.
Yup. Funny how many people are not aware of this however...
@@DOffio I've been putting Fords together before most of them were born! As long as we're on the subject, the 351m was a turd! 15mpg, still stuck with that 3.5" stroke! But there's alota deck there, and plenty room for a good long rod! The 400m did a good job, but that oiling priority was screwed up! You need to keep the oil primarily to the crank! Had both, the 351m and the 400! The 400 was a mule!.but, by that time you sholda had a 460! Emissions screwed us on that! Ran a cheap 460 for a while in a Mustang. But buy the time you got all thar rotating turning you still had the extra 300 lbs or so to haul! But, 460's were cheap, dependable, available down here! Save up a little and build a 408 Windsor! Shoot a 100-150 shot and back the timing, 2-3 degrees for every 50hp. Don't turn it past bout 6500, change the oil out every 5-6 weeks! It'll run forever, but don't worry if you lose! I didn't drive, but looked at the slips, took note of the temperature, 60' and trap speed. Even a castpiston (we used Speed Pro cast pistons in the 1st motor)! Windsosr will live if you just take care of them, don't waste your time and money on a 306!
That's a good way of putting it. It's all about that torque.
ALL Cleveland and M engines have the same poor oiling. 302-400. Modern synthetic oil helps them but they are at best a heavy gunker!! I have a 400M in my Galaxie. Near stock and reliable, I had a 351C in my Falcon racecar, that is being replaced with a 347 with 3V CHI alloy heads. I can turn that a 1000 rpm higher and it will stay together.
An M block is 400 witrh a 4" crank and 351 with a 3.5" crank. With those huge 3" mains that exasparate the poor oiling.@@markmccarty9793
Yes!
I worked for Ford Australia from 1978 to 1994. We looked at the M and C series as the unleaded and fuel emission versions of the Cleavland engines.
I had a 351C in a 70 Torino that was a beast.
First was the flathead v8, then the Y block, then they introduced the FE, and the MEL, the same year in 1958 . Then the Windsor in 62, then the Lima in 68, then the Cleveland in 70. Then the Modular in 89.
Lima was a turd!
The Windsor was not made till 69 The Small Block on the other hand was made in 62
@@matthewq4bnot true. 289, 302, even smaller displacement like 260ci are all Windsor blocks.
The 351 Windsor didn’t come out until 1969.
Just type in “fords first Windsor block”
If I am not mistaken in the early 60's Ford called the 221 / 260 / 289 the Fairlane V8? It's when the 351 Cleveland came out in 1970 that Ford had to identify the earlier 1969 351 engine as a Windsor.@@Boots67
@@briansearles4473 advertising from 1962 seems to call the 221 the "worlds first Economy V8" and the 260 the "Challenger V8" anyways, i think you are right, but people generally do refer to that whole family as Windsor nowdays, for the sake of having a single name that everyone recognizes.
Clevelands were made in Australia until 82. In both 302 and 351. You will find that a 351M had the same power with better torque [longer 6.55" rods] than 351C. Same heads, engines were rated differently. 400s were again tall deck Clevos with a block an inch taller. Never a performance engine but with a few mods drag around a Galaxie very well.
Aussie F trucks and ambulances,, and Broncos used 351 M in fully imported and 351C in Australian assembled in the early 80s then went 5.8W. Just to confuse even more.
A 5.8 Windsor is like a 5 litre Windsor, quite a different engine based on the early base engine. Generally a better engine core to build from.
352 FE too is the same 4"bore and 3.5"stroke and very different again.
400 m is a value of an engine for off roaders make lots of torque , thank you for your knowledge 👍
I knew an engine builder that hated Ford's. But he could get 800 HP out of a Cleveland. And that was 30 years ago. Unfortunately he died with a lot of information went with him
The Aussie Cleveland was well thought of, De-Tomaso used that block for the Panterra, I assume they got a fair amount of extra HP.
my old galaxy was a beast. paid 50$ for it, 2 years later sold it for 500!! 351 M motor,400 heads, and different cam. fast boat.
You sound like you know what you’re talking about. Can you lend a hand? I’m building a 351m/400 and I’m doing full roller. Cylinder heads specifically for the 351m are very expensive but, I found a set of cheap ones for the 351C. Will they work on my 400? I’ve tried to find that answer online and nobody seems to know for sure.
I raced Ford for 3 years; my car was a 76 Torino with a 351 Cleveland. It was the only make of car I ever drove that did not lose a single engine in all 3 years. I also drove Chevrolet for 3 years, and I’ve lost track of the number of engines that spontaneously disassembled over that time span. I drove Dodges for the last 6 seasons I raced, all small blocks, I lost 3 engines in six years with Dodge but got my best finishes during those years. My 351 C was bulletproof compared to the Chevy’s and Dodges. Other Ford drivers in that time ran either Windsor’s or M blocks and suffered blown motors.
Laughable
All those engines in the same car??
The Cleveland heads came in 2 valve sizes including several different combustion chamber sizes, the Australian 302 cu inch Cleveland (yes Cleveland not Windsor) had 58 combustion chambers and the 351 heads 72cc chambers, a direct swap of the 302 heads onto a standard 2v 351 would yield around 11:1 compression, I built one this way with a mild Sig Erson cam and ran it on 100/130 Avgas, it made a lot of power, enough to tear up an LSD 9 inch 3.50:1 ring gear with 31 spline axles when power shifting 2nd gear, however pre detonation was still a problem and cooling even with a large 3 row radiator on a hot Australian summers day was problematic.
Oil restrictors up top kept more pressure in the bottom end something that sustained higher RPM's in Cleveland required, they rarely wore out cams due to almost excessive oiling in the top end.
The 351 Clevo was one of the best V8 performance engines ever built IMO however had a short lifespan in the USA, although the thickwalled Australian blocks lasted into the early 1980's in Australian F series trucks and Fairlanes, LTD's and Falcons.
The 351c also used the same bore spacing as the Windsor family. Which allowed with some modifications to bolt the Cleveland heads onto the Windsor blocks. The M series also used a c6 “big block” bellhousing. The M also used a one off 3 bolt style engine mount, compared to the traditional 2 vertical bolt style mounts.
I had a Cougar XR-7 (1977) when I was in college. It had the 351W, while my dad had a Bronco with the 351C. I've always wondered what the difference was. Thank you for illuminating me! 🙂 And yes, I really wish I still had my old Cougar. Best car I ever owned! 🙂
The 351 C was never factory installed in the Bronco.
I was lucky enough to find a 351c for a 125 bucks last summer. I did my research & was dead set on having one by any means 💨
Hey browntacks708, that’s a helluva good deal for a complete 351C !
Would you mind sharing some more details ? Did it come with 2 or 4 barrel heads? Have you removed the oil pan and checked the block for 4-bolt main bearing caps ? I have some Cleveland performance parts left over from my previous engine builds. Many are brand new and still in their original boxes including all of the supplied documents. I also have an extra pair of Cleveland 4 barrel heads that I don’t have any plans to use. Let me know if you’re interested and good luck with your Cleveland 🏁.
oooh nice! whats it going into?
Cleveland's got sent to all our Fords in Australia, F100, falcons etc
Windsor, cleveland, and M all share bore spacing and head bolt pattern as well (along with the 400). hence how the boss 302 came to be with a windsor block and cleveland style heads
You can also stick 302C heads onto a 400 for a compression and flow boost for the same reason. Bothered me that he didn't say the bore spacing and bolt pattern was shared, but hey.
Yea or 351 cleaver. 351w with Cleveland closed chamber head.
Research will show you that it's expensive to change the bore spacing on engines.
That's why the factory didn't change the bore spacing on those engines.
@@jesse75 except ford did that alot with basically every other engine family (y block, FE, MEL, SD, 385 series, etc..) Commonality in block machining equipment would be my suspicion for maintaining the same bore spacing.
@@Boots67 clevor*
Thanks for the explanation Bill!
351C 4v is a fire-breathing monster! There's a CZcams video 351 Cleveland 7000 RPMs he put a GoPro on his bumper turn the volume up and enjoy!!! I want a 4-bolt Main Boss Cleveland 💯
4v Heads are a dog on the street, great for the strip or track but the 2v is king on the street.
I grew up down the street from the Cleveland engine plant, and the story I heard from employees at the plant was the 351M was born out of necessity. In 1975 Ford was having casting difficulties with the 351W blocks but demand was high for 351 engines and the 351C was no longer in production. So some engineer discovered the 400 and the 351W used the same main journal size, so they just dropped a 351W crank into a 400 and viola, the 351M was born.
I seriously doubt that bs! The 351w had been around since 69! The 351w has the same bore spacing, same bell housing, motor mounts as the small blocks, as well for the Cleveland bell housing! The 351m was a bastard with the same bell housing as the 400m-460. The 351m-400m were in Ford pickups and cars, including I had one! They were gas hogs, but had great midrange torque, hence the truck applications. Ran all of them over the years, with good results, with the exception of fuel economy! The M motors have great torque, but you pay for it! The 351w is a great compromise!
@markmccarty9793 Apperently you didn't read what I wrote. Ford never stopped production of 351W's in 75, they just had an issue in keeping up with demand. That is where the 351M comes in. Ford initially built them to supplement the demand for 351's at the time, both the W and M engine was available at the same time. Eventually the bad block issue was resolved but Ford kept building the M until 79. I had one in a 78 t bird
I've heard this elsewhere too, Ford couldn't produce enough 351w engines to meet the demand they had for 351 cubic inch motors, so the destroked the 400 to create the 351M
I’ve also herd this!!
is was a supply vs demand issue and the 385 bell housing allowed it to drop straight into the f100 line up
Ok, I'll take your word for that! But, I had a 351m in a 78 thunderbird! Now I drove the 302 thunderbird! My grandfather bought one new! Yes, the 351m had good torque! But at a 4 mpg penalty! I've had 400m powered cars, I can only guess that the 351m met the EPA requirements better! The 351m SUCKED! And I'm a Ford guy!
The first Windsor V8s were a 221 cu in engine.
221 & 260, both discontinued in 63
There is no such thing as a Windsor 221 there was how ever a Small Block 221...
I had Ford hot rods in the 60s & ALL small block Fords at that time were called Windsors because Windsor, Ontario, Canada(same as Clevelands were called that because that's the city where they were built) was where the plant was located. Like most of the internet, the "experts" don't know sh!t about what they're running their mouths about! @@matthewq4b
@@matthewq4b You had better tell FOMOCO that, because they don't refer to that engine family as "small blocks".
The 351 Cleveland uses the same bellhousing as the Windsor blocks. The 351M uses the same as the 385.
I cam here to say just this plus some other things; because, then folks at CJ obviously don’t know what deck height actually is and how it’s measured, along within many other things about these engines.
@backinblck1 definitely some truth there. At 2:40 when talking about deck height, they are showing a measured height going to the top center from crankshaft position. Deck height is measured from crank center line to top of block where head mounts ( not where intake mounts as shown here).
@@sammondaw exactly.
You are right about that. That is why so many Chevrolet guys did not like Fords! I have had a pile of Ford trucks that were from the 70s. And not a lot of parts interchanged.
@@sammondaw , you answered my question , I thought he was wrong when he described deck height but I thought I was wrong. I kept on scrolling to see if he was wrong and no one did. Thanks for correcting me.
Ford Australia used the 351 Windsor from 1969 to 1970 for the Falcon GTHO racing homologation models, and the Fairlane luxury flagship.
The 351 Cleveland supplanted the Windsor quickly and was used by Ford Australia from 1970 to 1982, initially in the Falcon GTHO homologation models, then later as a general engine option. It was phased out in 1982 in a series of runout special Falcon luxury sports sedans referred to as the Fairmont Ghia ESP (or European Sports Pack).
As an aside, the Windsor V8 (in 302/5.0 injected form) made a comeback at Ford Australia in 1991 (after 8 years with no V8 option) and lasted until 2002, being replaced by the 5.4L Modular V8. This was possibly the last production Ford fitted with the 302 Windsor.
Love those ESP Ghia's.
@@leongaskell1533 they hd those lace style mags made in a metric size diametre for French Michelin tyres, size “390” or something.
These rims where on the FC/FD LTD Cartier. ESP had 15” snowflake rims
Excellent video. I’ve wondered about the precise differences since shopping for these in the 80s. Facts like these were much more difficult to find prior to the Internet and CZcams. Thank you!
Excellent explanation! Thank you again so much for sharing Brother!
Yep in Australia clevo’s are big. From 70 to 84. We even threw a 302 clevo in the mix. Small chamber. Gave a 351 big comp. Over your way he 302 heads were sort after
Bolt pattern on C and W is "Small block". 5.25 inch i believe. M is "Big block," pattern 7.5 in. Distance between top bolt holes.
Our fellow completely overlooked the fact that Aussie Clevelands were made into the mid 80's. They were the engine suppliers to Detomaso as well as the source for NASCAR that continued to use them. They came in the 302 and 351 variant and if I remember correctly shared the same deck height. The difference was in the rotating assembly. I believe it was one of the reasons why the plant was sent out to Australia as the engine was heavy compared to a Windsor and the Americans wanted the lightest small block for their own cars.
The "M" in 351M obviously refers to the "Michigan Casting Center" in Flat Rock, MI where the blocks were being cast when the 351M engine was introduced (later moved to Cleveland Foundry).
Thank god someone else with sense. I don't know why it is so hard for people. Cleveland, Winsor then "modified"??? No it is Michigan. How people can call the most gutless engine Ford ever produced as modified is insane. Thanks
There was also a 221 (I think) in the Windsor family, nothing worthy performance wise but it was there.
Also with some modifications, the Cleveland heads could be used on Windsor blocks, Hence the Boss 302 and the Boss 351. and many backyard builds using the high winding Windsor motors
Yes, there was a 221w. I have only ever seen one that was imported into Australia in about 1980 by a friend who was a local sprint car driver and care restorer. I think he ordered a shipping container of assorted Ford motors/parts from the States and it was in that lot. There was also a couple of 260s as well. The 221 and 260 had "slotted heads" for the push rods (acted as guides) and didnt use rail rockers - they used the same rocker arms and hardened push rods as the 289 HiPo. I bought some of this valve gear from him for a 289 I was building at the time because I couldn't afford roller rockers and needed something stronger than rail rockers.
The 221 & 260 came out at the same time, a year or 2 before the 289. I'd guess the 221 was to compete with the GM all aluminum 215 they put in early 60s Olds Cutlases & Pontiac Tempests. The 260/4V was put in the British Sunbeam Tigers before the 289 was offered.
Aw, I think the 221 was actually first and the 260 followed very shortly after. Then the 289 not very long after the 260 as well. 👍
You are correct about the Cleveland heads bolting up to (and obviously working on) Windsor blocks, such as the Boss 302 as you stated. However the Boss 351 IS a Cleveland.. It is not a 351 Windsor with the Cleveland heads, though that would be an interesting engine.
351m/ 400. Ford built to 400 to replace the Aging 390 due to the EPA emissions regulations. It was considered 351c Big Brother. Ford Engineers intended for the engine to have more horsepower and torque than the 460 with better fuel economy. But thanks to the government regulations they turned a 350-plus horsepower 500 + foot pound torque engine into a boat anchor. M indicate a modified 400. Ford destroked the 400 becauseof emissions. I had a 77 Ranchero GT with the 400. I zero Deck The Block, new Pistons + 351 Cleveland heads. Edelbrock intake and headers. Dyno 418hp, 500 torque. Which is about what Ford intended for the engine to start with
It is also the 400M I had one in my 78 Grand Marquis. It had 400M listed on the valve cover emission sticker. The M designates the Ford Michigan engine plant witch also is where these engines were made.
@@MatthewBerginGarage NO it did not the 400 was NEVER called the 400M it was just 400. But go on show a picture of a valve cover emissions sticker showing 400M I DARE YA...
@@matthewq4b I don't think I will waste my time looking in the wrecking yards for one of the worst engines Ford ever made to take a picture of the valve cover. I think you really need to get a life.
@@MatthewBerginGarage Think you need to get life quit trying to make up lies.. I spent 40 plus years in powertrain engineering with Ford. And you did what exactly?
When I was 16 I had a 1970 mustang Mach 1 with a 351c 4 speed. It was hot and had the power
its quite rare for anyone to actually stress that it was only chevy that officially called engines small or big blocks
Great video and thank you for educating me on the differences. Can we learn more about the white foxbody behind you ?
There will be a couple videos on that car in the next few weeks so make sure you subscribe and keep an eye on the channel!
351M was basically a hybrid, between the Cleveland and the Windsor. The 400 was little more than a larger Cleveland, but in a larger block, with larger 3” crank journals. Same heads, so performance Cleveland heads, higher compression pistons and decent cam will open up a ton of power for a 400. Same formula goes for the M, however, in order to destroke the 400, they took the Windsor’s 3” journal crank, and installed it, along with the proper rods. Voila! A 351 Cleveland, but in a 400 block. Although, in order to stroke it, you put a 400 crank in, thus meaning you probably shouldve started with a 400. This also means the 400 crank can be used in the 351, making it dirt simple to make a 400 Windsor, as well as the 427, 454 and 460 Windsor strokers. It is also possible to stroke a Cleveland, but you either need to turn down the 400 crank journals, or just use a 400 block and stroke from there. Or make a Clevor, which is a 351 Windsor block with Cleveland heads adapted to it.
Rather convoluted, isnt it?
The 302 Windsor with Cleveland heads was the boss mustang engine
A screamer !
czcams.com/video/Drf7GDYBgLM/video.html yup and this is what you talking about, this is a 351 Cleveland but it's got the 400 cam and all the good stuff that gives it performance , it's a Frankenstein cleveland
@@batmanlives6456wtf? No, the 351 boss is not a windsor block. The 351 boss is all clevland.
@@jesseduke694 sorry but ford developed the heads first and put them on a 302 Windsor
Later they built the bottom end for the Cleveland, it is stronger than the Windsor but same bore spacing…
It was rumoured to be a20% downsize on the 427/460 block
The original boss was a 302
You are referring to the 351 boss mustang which was a Cleveland
I still have the ford parts book from 1969/70
That explains how to modify the heads both ways …
Primarily to fit clevo heads to a Windsor
You need to modify water circuit to allow clevo heads to exit water into the inlet manifold as is with a Windsor…
@batmanlives6456 you said the 351 windsor block & clevland heads made the boss. They never used the 351 windsor block with clevland heads from the factory. The 302 boss they used a 302 windsor style block, but that was a special block with 4 bolt mains. Not like most 302 blocks & not like any 351 windsor blocks, with the 3 inch mains.
In the day, 351 Clevelands were the power engine that had a habit of throwing rods. The 351 Windsor was a reliable workhorse, but were never as powerful as the Cleveland.
I had a 1978 F150 originally with the 351 M but made back into a 400. Four barrel 750 Holley carb, aftermarket intake and dual 3 inch exhaust and headers. I miss that truck.
Be nice if you mentioned the Ckeavland use in Australia too
Or that they manufactured Cleavlands in Australia
So why did we leave out the FE series of ford engines? Not sure about a 390 but pretty sure you could get a 427/428 in the GT 500. Still technically a mustang.
This video was just about the different 351 engines.
The Windsor has a displacement of 352 cu., but they called it a 351 to not get it confused with the old 352 FE.
All the 351 engines have the same head bolt pattern, but some of the water jacket holes are different. Hot Rod magazine, back in the 90's, built a stroker 351W with a Winsor block, a ground down 400 crank, 300 six rods, and 2v Cleveland heads. I think the displacement was around 377ci.
Deck height on the Cleveland blocks is 9.2" while the 351M and 400 is 10.297". This makes them a tad heavy, tollerable in trucks but heavy for a car.
The 400 crank fits into a 351W block readily to come up with a lighter 406 CID engine.
400 crank in a Windsor. The crank counter weighs hit the block and the crank won't turn all the way around.
@@jesse75I guess I will need to get a 351W and check a couple of engines outside. One may be a 400. There are ways to get around that if true. Remember the 351W is also wider in the pan rails than the other SBF engines.
@@daledavies2334 in the 80's I built a 372 using the 400 crank.
The counter weighs were cut down. Notch the block near the oil pump mounting and sides of the pan rails.
The front of the crank is different than a Windsor so the gear needs to be modified.
About middle 2000’s I was flat towing one of my 80’s F150 with another 80’s F150. The rear of the pulling truck would slide some in the turns so I stopped at a grocery store to buy salt bags for ballast. This guy walked out and said years ago he bought a new 1985 F150 with the roller cam 351w H.O. and his son totaled it at 7,000 miles. He asked if I was interested in the engine and I said yes. I gave him my phone number and he never called. That would have been a great engine to put in a Foxbody Mustang.
Unfortunately they don't fit under the stock hood unless a low rise intake would work. My 79 LTD Landau has a 351 Windsor 2 barrel with a aluminum intake from the factory. That's what would have to run if I changed to a 4 barrel and yes it's the full size LTD it's the car in my profile pic
@@purpurahaze9179
Or cut a hole to clear and put a factor hood scoop over it.
351Ws are quite a bit taller & about 4" wider than a 302 so getting it between the inner fenders(part of the chassis structure) might be difficult. Not sure about the Fox but early Falcons(the basic floorpan of the first Mustangs), Fairlanes(67 & earlier) & Mustangs(66 & earlier) would be a very tight fit for a 351 without major mods like Ford subcontracted out to Kar Kraft for the Boss 429 Mustangs. Engine compartments got bigger in the 67-8 Mustangs but ya still had to undo the motor mounts & lift the 390FE engines up a bit to change plugs in them. The LS conversion is very popular for Foxstangs because they're dimensionally smaller.
351 Cleveland was made in Australia for like 12 years. Grandmas' grocery getters had them. There was a 2barrel intake there too.
Ive had 2 different cars with the 351 cleveland and i totaly loved my 351 s awsome motors
That 351 m was a tough engine..had it in a1977 f250 high rider 4x4..
Only because it didn't make enough horsepower to be able to hurt itself.
The m engines share a bell housing with the 385 series engines. Cleveland engine share a bell with the windsors. The m blocks are far superior to the Cleveland but never gained traction here like the did in Australia. The aussies have all kinds of good go fast stuff for those blocks
The aussies have go fast stuff for the clevlands. Not the 351ms. Whatever they have to make a 351m run we also have. The clevland was available for over 10 yrs there were it was only available to us for 4 yrs. The 351m block is not superior to the clevland.
The 400/351M also sported the small block bolt pattern..
@matthewq4b no! No they didn't.
@@jesseduke694 And yet another clueless muppet. I suggest you look up the 400 FMX so you can have a clue and quit looking like a half wit.
@@jesseduke694 What just crickets ? no snappy come back.
351 Cleveland has more in common with the later GM LS emgines than it does with the Windsor engines.
Which means the Godzilla is also closer to a Cleveland as well.
My 1970 400M has all 351 4bbl Cleveland parts in it. Bored out, this 400 is now a 425 Cleveland monster. A few years ago, Hot Rod built this same engine with modern parts and got over 630 Hp from it. I still have this engine and will eventually bring her back once I find the right body for her.
Peter you obviously know what it takes to make a Ford 400 into a radical performance engine. Unfortunately Ford never even offered a 4 barrel option for the 400 so it never really caught on as a performance engine. I have been involved with drag racing Clevelands for 40 years and I’m familiar with the Hot Rod build of the 400 with 600+ horsepower.
Ford designed the 400 to make torque with the longer stroke and more displacement than the 351 so it could be used in their larger sedans and pickup trucks. It worked well for that application.
But it’s also a performance engine when the right parts are used. Starting with a pair of Cleveland 4-V closed chamber (quench) heads with upgraded stainless steel valves and single groove keepers for the retainers. The stock 3 groove retainers fail quickly at higher rpm’s. The aftermarket has 4-V aluminum intake manifolds for the taller deck height of the 400. Spacers are also available to use 351C intake manifolds and heads on the 400 block.
The Cleveland heads need higher compression to really scream so a set of forged flat top pistons are required for serious power. Naturally a performance cam is required. I use solid roller mechanical cams but a hydraulic roller cam and lifter set would work well on the streets.
A 400 cubic inch Cleveland is pretty badass. More displacement works well with the 4-V Cleveland heads and 434 stroker kits are also available. Powerful builds are possible using original Ford production parts. The aftermarket offers Cleveland components from Australia and the States. Aluminum heads, blocks and everything needed to build 1000 horsepower, single 4 barrel, naturally aspirated Cleveland strokers WITHOUT NITROUS 👍. There are several examples here on CZcams worth checking out.
Anyone interested in building Clevelands or seriously powerful 400’s, needs to visit Timothy Meyers website. He’s an expert on all things Cleveland and 335 series Ford engines along with being a master automotive machinist.
tmeyerinc.com
The 400 Ford could not have been introduced at a worse time? Had this engine come out just a few years earlier it would have not been saddled with low compression and "smog" engine power killers.@@danielwilson6665
cleveland was built in australia from 1971 to 1982 in both 302ci and 351ci.
did production of the clevelands actually stop in 82? If so, they must have had a lot of excess stock because you could still buy an XE up until the end of October in 84 with a 351C, and F250 ambulances were still being fitted with them in early 85, the two 1985 ambulances at RAAF Williamtown had 351Cs in them, before Ford switched to the 351M and later the EFI 351W
@@davidewhite69351C was available in Australia from 1969 through to August 1985. 302C was available in Australia from late 1971 through to December 1982. From introduction, all Cleveland engines in Aus were imported up until circa 1975 when Ford Aus imported all required tooling to cast/machine/manufacture locally. Local casting commenced approx 1976 and finished in December 1981. However, the 'Pillow' block Cleveland was cast from Jan to March 1982 and then the XE192540 block was cast from March through to May/June of 1982 - that was the very end of Cleveland engine casting in Australia. Regarding supplies, Ford Aus stockpiled completed 351C engines for use in the Ford F Series vehicles - I saw a photo of this (also available to external companies such as DeTomaso etc). The 7th gen F Series used only the 351C up until August 1985 (you could also get the 4.1L 6 engine as well). Ford Passenger cars were fitted with 302C/351C up until December 1982 (Falcon/Fairmont up to November 1982 and Fairlane/LTD up to December 1982 - Ford Aus released a press bulletin stating that although the silver XE Fairmont Ghia was the last Falcon/Fairmont to be produced with a V8, V8 production for the Fairlane/LTD would continue at the Eagle Farm plant through to December 1982. And yes, I have Ford production records showing 23 5.8 XE Falcons were made in January of 1983 but this was written in as an "extra" so take that with a grain of salt, who knows if it's true or not). From January 1983 on wards it was only the carburetted and EFI 6 cylinder engines that were available for all passenger cars (Falcon, Fairmont, Fairlane, LTD), By 1984 Ford realised that they were running out of the 351C engines (for the F Series vehicles) and thus, the 302W EFI - 5.0Litre, was then brought in (fully imported), and was first seen in F100 Ambulance and Bronco as of January 1985. By September of 1985, everything was 5.0L Windsor EFI in F100 (soon to be F150 as F100 name was dropped) and then same for F250 and F350. By 1987, the F250 and F350 had been dropped from everyday sale and it was only the Ambulance form that the F250 was available in. Come 1990, the 5.8W EFI was introduced and the 5.0W EFI was dropped. This was in F150 only plus the special order F250 Ambulance vehicles. The 351M/400 was never offered by Ford Australia, in any vehicle.
@@pablostark1665 fantastic reply mate, I dont suppose you know the reasons why Ford Australia never injected the cleveland, they spent a fortune on the 4.1 with alloy heads and EFI but nothing on the clevelands?
@@davidewhite69 It was a self-fulfilling prophecy. In the late '70's, Ford Aus produced a report showing the % of 4, 6 and 8 cylinder cars. The V8's showed approx 25% (excluding commercial vehicles - utes, panel vans and F Series). That is, the V8 was a popular choice. However, with the introduction of the XD (similar to the VB Commodore), the intent was to achieve weight saving/fuel economy. Ford made a conscious decision to 'go green', read, plastic bumper bars, plastic fuel tanks, alloy head engines (6 cyl) with the desired outcome of being seen to have fuel efficient vehicles. The V8 engine did not fit that narrative so it got the boot. Also, GM Holden were also looking at canning the 5.0 litre V8, however, a campaign from an Aus motoring magazine "V8 'til '98', assisted in Holden in retaining the V8 engine. Obviously Ford realised that they got it wrong and re-introduced the V8 in 302W EECIV version in 1992. But by then, the Clevo was long dead and never to return. I have never seen nor heard of Ford running testing programs on EFI 351C. I believe that it was their intent to get rid V8 powered passenger cars ASAP. The V8 F Series is a different story though. This can be related back to the North America market re the A Code engine namely 460 4V. In 1978, the CAFE rules showed that the 460 was impacting Ford so it got the boot - passenger cars, from 1979 on wards - say hello to the 400 2V. However, the 460, albeit in EFI form, went through to 1996 but only in commercial vehicles.
@@davidewhite69 They did have excess stock as I recall from the time. Something like "we will sell the remainder we have in stock".
Sorry to be nitpicky but you missed a bunch of stuff. The 289/302 had a different main journal size from the 351W clearly shown in the comparison of the two blocks. Also there are four different 351 C/M head types. The 2V open chamber, the 2V closed chamber offered in Australia, the 4V closed chamber offered through 1971. Finaly the 4V open chamber until the series was discontinued.
I learned something new. Thanks for explaining. Now I know why everyone asks is it a Windsor or Cleveland.
Now I’m even more confused 😂🤦♂️🤷♂️
The 351m/400 is a modified version of the 351 Cleveland. Taller deck height and larger main bore is the major difference.
P.S. the deck height is measured from the main bore to the piston deck. Not to the top of the valley….
Sort of. The 351M was modified from the 400.
Sort of. The 351M was modified from the 400.
Mane journals on the Cleveland are smaller the 400 was produced then ford put a 351 Windsor crankshaft in the 400 that destroked it and came up with 351 cubic inches thus modified the 400 351m
@@mikereeves8689 Ford did not put a Windsor crank in the 400. The 351M is a completely different crank.
@@jesse75… you’re absolutely correct about the crankshaft comment.
There’s definitely no shortage of misinformation pertaining to Windsors and Clevelands 🤷♂️.
351W are everywhere indeed... my 89 Correct Craft Sport Nautique "PCM Engine" ski boat is just a rebranded 351W.
Thank you So Much!!!
And saying the 351 c shares nothing else with the 351w is stupid , they share a very important thing , they share head bolt locations ! So any 351c or 351 m or 400m head will bolt on a 351 w or even a 260 w to be correct !
Bolt on yes- run correctly? Fat chance unless you know your stuff.
@@P_RO_ really , hmmm , easy , Amazon sells intakes to fit a clevo head on a Windsor now $157 and clevo heads on a Windsor 351 will run better , better overall engine , longer rods more deck height , in fact Dan Gurney destroked a 302 Windsor to 150 ci with a super short stroke and ran 4V Clevo heads with 2 X 1250 dominators in Indy around 1968 it ran 13000 rpm , should read his book !
I rebuilt a 351 Windsor and dropped it into 1965 Mustang fastback. I had to cut the shock towers a bit, but I got it in.
why cut ?
I have a factory remanufactured 351W milled 40 over in a 1996 F250 4X4 with a low stall torque converter. I load it weekly with over 2000 pounds of animal feed and it drives as if it does not have a load at all. Strong and smooth.
I always laugh (to myself) at the people that no matter which 351 they have ,they claim its a "Cleveland " because they think it's more impressive sounding. Personally I'll take a Windsor every time.
This. The Winsor has a better bottom end and a better oiling system. The 351C is a MONSTER but only if you have one of the high compression motors with the good closed chamber heads, which are pretty rare. There are aftermarket heads for the 351W that flow just as good, or you can put the good Cleveland heads on a Windsor block and have yourself a Cleavor that rips.
Yep I worked at a Ford dealership back in the 70s and 80s. I've owned and worked on just about every ford engine made . I have to say tho that I never cared for the FE series of engines. Just my opinion.
@@danielgreen7159 Nice!!! My first trucks had FE engines, got a '75 F-100 with a 360 in it and swapped it out for a moderately built 390. I blew a couple of them up, but definitely more my own fault than the engine's fault. I'd love a '70's Ford truck with an FE 390 in it again... Not so much because they're good or bad engines, but for that nostalgia. '76-'77 if an F-150, that front end looked the best! Or a '78 Bronco.
Late 70s ford trucks , absolutely the best looking trucks ever. I had a 79 with the 400 engine. Ran great but sure liked its fuel.
20 degree heads will NEVER flow as well as canted valve heads with all else being equal. Edelbrock makes a set Cleavor heads & intake to make a 351W really run! @@northshepherd8010
Thanks for the info, been wanting to get more power in my 95 F150 and been debating on throwing a 351 in it or building a 347 stroker. Heard that the 351 was a dog of an engine and based off the big block engines. Turns out it’s just the 351 M
The 351M/400 is NOT based off the 385 Series it is just the 351C with a high deck and larger diam crank. The 351M/400 is what the 351W is to the other small blocks. It is NOT based off the 385 Series.
Truth
All this hype! A 351w will use the same engine mounts and bellhousing as the 5 liter! The deck is raised up from the 8.2" 5 liter height to 9.5, although the first few had 9.48" deck. I've ran both. The 9.2" Cleveland, the 9.5 Windsor, had the smallblock bell housing paytern. The351m, which is eccentually a 400m with a 3.5" stroke,The m series had the same belhousing pattern as the 429- 460 engines. They were in everything from thunderbird (I had one) to 3/4 ton trucks, which is the only logical application since the were hard on fuel but had good low end torque. The Windsor was a much better choice for car applications. It's ability to bolt up to the same bellhousing as the 302 makes if an instant upgrade, however it is obvious wider, and taller.
@@markmccarty9793 The 400 block so the 351M block also used the small block 6 bolt bell housing pattern. The big difference is the 400 blocks used the 385 series motor mounts where as the 351C shared mounts with the small blocks.
@matthewq4b no, there was on exception. I'm 63. Been doing this for decades, when ur mom was still powering your raw ass! The 77 thunderbird had a hybrid bellhousing- transmission combo that was just a bastard child! I had one. Got rid of that15 mpg mofo! These were decent truck engines, but you might as well had a 460! More torque, just a hundred pounds extra! These old M motors are boat anchors! Just put a 460 onto it and be done with it! I've heard of old M's having dual belhousing patterns! If you need more than the 351w just jump to a 460! Been there, done that! Spread that
"M"anure round your wife's flowers! Have a great day!@
Hey Bill, nice job with the basic differences between the Windsor and Cleveland engines. Unfortunately, with so many cyber experts, you also opened the proverbial messy can of worms 😳. I’ve been building Clevelands for 40 years but using these wide ranging comments as a reference, I clearly have a lot left to learn 😉. Despite the small and big block terminology originally coming from GM, it works for most Ford and Chrysler engines too.
The 260, 289, 302 and 351W are considered by many as small blocks. Since the 351C has the same cylinder bore centerline spacing and head bolt patterns as the other Ford “small block” engines, it seems logical for the Clevelands to be thought of as being small blocks too. Opinions definitely vary.
Clevelands most certainly ARE NOT big blocks. I wouldn’t call people that insist that they are stupid, but they do suffer from an advanced case of ignorance.
And the beat goes on….
The 221 was phased out end of May 1963 due to a lack of demand after about 371,000 had been produced.
The 221s were easy to identify, as they had no "harmonic balancer" on the front of the crank ... just an external counterweight and mount for a lower pully.
The engine families cause major problems with the 351M and 400s. These are generally truck engines, yet you could also get FT 361s and 390s in trucks too. The 351M and 400 series engines are nothing like the Windsor HO 5.8 truck engines, yet they ended up at 136 and 164 hp, way less power than the 4bbl or EFi 5.8s. The M family Fords were purposely knobbled, but the base, especially post July 1977 to its last year in 1982/83, is a lot stronger than the Cleveland and Windsor and FT/FE or 370 Lima 385 truck emgines. Generalities with Fords, dont mean much. Tall deck 351Ms and 400 have tall stories and lies spun about them by even ex Ford engineers. A last year F-150 136hp 351M or 164 hp 6.6 Bronco engine can make over 750 hp with a two bolt block and just 4V head, intake and crank and piston changes, with the block still factory stock. Most people are too ignorant to do thr research. This article should correct this. Great Work! 🥝🇳🇿✓
I think Kaase engines used a 400 based engine on the Engine Masters challenge a few years ago
Good info.
In late 77 when the F-series was reworked. Was that when Ford made the switch from the 360/390 to the 351/400's?
I had a '78 Bronco with a 400 and a '79 F-150 with a 351M. The 400 was ok. That 351, not so much. Although it was lifted and turning some huge, noisy mudders. Can't recall what they were called. Man they howled
Mud Hawgs!
The windsor had decent power & was reliable. The Cleveland was more powerful & reliable. The 351m was a dog turd. No power pos.
I had a ‘78 F150 Supercab with the 351M for a long time. I think it was rated at about 170HP. They were really dogs in those years. I finally rebuilt it with a performance cam, intake manifold and Holly 4bbl and it really woke it up! At present I have a ‘53 F100 with a built 351W and it is a blast!
All 351s also shared cylinder head bolt pattern and the 4bbl Cleveland head was installed on a beefier 302 block becoming the boss 302. Some ppl put the 4bbl Cleveland heads on a 400 and essentially had a 400 Cleveland but inturn required the C6 Transmission bolt pattern.
The BOSS 302 head was not just a 4bbl Cleveland head. The C6 was behind a variety of engines and as such there is no C6 bolt pattern as it came in different flavors with different bolt patterns.
Great video but 351c has a small block bellhousing pattern. Have one in my 1980 mustang with the stock 4 spd SROD bolted to it
Did you not understand what he said ? The 351C is basically a small Big Block. It is closer to a Big Block than it is a small block. Your point doesn`t change this fact.
@@rodneyjones4890 he literally said the 351c has a big block bellhousing pattern, which is false.
@@rodneyjones4890 6:30 thank you have a nice day
@@mikecam94 SO HE FUCKED UP, GET OVER IT YA WANNABE EXPERT.
@@rodneyjones4890 No the Small Blocks 221-351W are the small block big blocks. They both share the same design linage. The 335 Series 351,351M ,400 are their own deal, the 351M/400 dimensionally are not far off the 385 Series big blocks. The Small blocks and the 335 series share the same bore spacing and head bolt pattern, the head bolt pattern is the same for the 385 series but is dimensionally different as is the bore spacing..
The "M" I believe stands for "Midland"
Modified.
Like I said in the video Ford never specifically said what the M stood for. Most agree on Modified but Michigan and Midland were also brought up.
I've heard it called all those names ive always called a modified I have one can make them run with right set of heads
@@cjponyparts Internally in power train engineering at Dearborn and Oakville it was designated Michigan to follow the naming convention of the other 2 351's being named after their original casting plant's, later the 351M was also cast at Cleveland. Modified was used later on as no one wanted to officially name the engine after the troubled and bad luck Michigan casting plant so it just called the 351M. Techs adopted the Modified moniker as the 351M is a modified 400. And it was jokingly said it was a 400 modified in to garbage. No one really knows where Midland came from but it's not correct and has no foundation for it's use.
Ford also had the BOSS 351 in the 1971 boss mustang , which also the dual point distributor.. ford also had the 351 W called the HIGH OUTPUT 5.8L with the 4bbl carb from 84 till 87 in trucks and vans.
I have a 400 engine mated to the cast iron FMX transmission in my Tbird..it replaced the original 351M as a direct bolt on..no modifications needed except bigger carburetor. That gives you even more transmission bolt patterns to consider
I am an aircraft designer, and I had a FMX in my 71 Torino. I wanted to put a ratchet shifter in my turd, They don't make an interface for that trans. I measured the shift point lengths, and did a bunch of math during boring meetings at work. I finally came up a way to make a B&M shifter work. I designed new mounting plates, and adjustable cable linkage on my computer. With some help from the guys on the floor I had the plates water jeted and bent up. After too much time I had it all installed. The only FMX slushbox with a ratchet shifter in the world. It was still a turd but it was much cooler. I can't remember how I did it but I have all the dimensions written down in one of my old meeting note journals. Something to do during endless meetings.
@@mikeglick3507 I had a similar problem getting a stock column shifter to work correctly on a 66 Thunderbird that someone had cobbled a 1968 C6 transmission into.
Ford had just introduced the C6 that year and later production 1966 Fords used C6s although the majority of 1966 Fords used Cruise O Matics as C6 production did not ramp up very fast., The Cruiso was the same as an FMX except that the FMX had no rear pump and a different shift quadrant and the shift control lever does not interchange with the C6.
The C6 used in the 1966 Thunderbird had a unique transmission lever, while all other C6 applications had different geometry in relation to the arc the transmission lever travels through than on the later C6 units.. I found a late production 1966Thunderbird with original C6 in a wrecking yard and took all the linkage as well as the 1966 only C6 valve body
(green dot drive rather than select shift) Not wanting to give up the rare linkage, I duplicated its function and dimensions by modifying the existing rods and transmission lever using a piece of steel and a drill. With trial and error (no math-Im allergic to it) it all lined up properly eventually.
The FMX later evolved into the AOD, AODE, 4R70W and other variants, all descendants of the original 1951 Fordomatic.
Ford never produced a 4 barrel 351M/400, however Edelbrock makes a 4 barrel intake for those engines, it sells for about $420 new.
Chilton manuals list a 4 barrel 400 for 1971, but Ive never seen one, and the rumor was that it was cancelled at the last minute due to emission issues.
385 series engines (429 and 460) can also be dropped in as they have the same trans configuration as 351M/400 but requires discontinued big block engine mounts from a 72-76 Thunderbird, 72-76 Gran Torino/Elite/Ranchero or Lincoln Mark IV if installed in a mid size chassis.
If you want speed and quick power go with the 351W I loved it I had it in a 66 fast back 2+2 mustang.
All three blocks were cast at the Cleveland Casting Plant at one time or another. So were the heads and most other small parts.
He forgot the 221 Windsor
Great explanation. I always felt that this whole "small block / big block" labeling was one of the most overused and also misused identifiers since there are so many different block sizes that when someone says (or asks) small block or big block, I always want to ask "compared to what?"
For me, there are small blocks and... everything else, and however you choose to categorize them depends on whatever definition you're choosing to use. Call it what you wish.
To my mind, there are only 4 engines which meet the definition of small block - the Windsor Ford, the Chevy SB, the LA Mopar and the AMC. Everything else is..... well, something else. Call them whatever you want. Your definition is as likely to be correct as mine.
Me and my father are working on his 67. Xr7 cougar with a 351c-4v with a c4
Everyone forgets the "Small Block" started with 221 cu in in 1962. Same displacement as the original flathead V8. The Fairlane got this and I believe I saw a 63 Galaxie in a showroom with a 221. It had white valve covers and air filter housing. Ford was selling I an I6 engine at the same time with more displacement, 223 cu in than their low end V8.
We used to use the term "Baby Big Block" for the C & M.
The 221 that started the W family in 62. I had a 70 Mach 1 351C 2bbl that thing ran 15.5 in the 1/4 stock except for headers.
In 79 I turned 16 and got a 70 Torino. 351C , 2BL. You could watch the Gas Gauge as it went from full to empty. I can't remember the Gas prices exactly. But I think they pretty much doubled that year or so it seemed.
I bought new a 1979 ford F250 with a 351M. Farm truck that often ran a hour a day and put on 5 miles. First motor blew the main bearings in 1985 with 35,000 mile on it. Short blocked it and the second motor repeated the show at 71,000 miles in 1991. Put in a junker 400 that was running strong in 2003 when it got sold with 131,000 miles on the clock.. Someone once said that their was a bulletin that an oversize oil pump would have helped the self destruction of the low oil pressure/ low rpm that the 351m suffered from.
Ford had some machining tolerance problems around that time. My grandpa bought a new 78 Ford 3/4 ton 4x4 with a 351M for the farm & it destroyed a couple C6 transmissions. They finally sent the dealer a jig & found that the bellhousing index pin holes were machined off several thousandths of an inch causing side load on the converter bushing & pump. Offset pins were made & the problem went away!
In California in the 1970's as teenage gear heads we considered the 351 Cleveland a big block and the Windsor was a much laughed at and wimpy small block. Any time we built a Ford platform based car and had the money the choice was the Cleveland. Lots and lots of after market parts available and the version with 4-bolt mains was just about bullet proof.
Probably the easiest ways to tell a Cleveland/Modified from a Windsor is the fuel pump mounting and the timing chain area. Clevo's have the fuel pump mounting bolts vertically in line and the Windsors are horizontal. The Cleveland has the timing chain recess cast into the block and the Windsor has a bolt on timing cover.
There are also the flathead, y-block, and MEL families of Ford V8's among others. The 351 Cleveland is also considered a big block by most Ford guys. I alwasy found it interesting that the 302 is a Windsor design but they were all cast at the Cleveland foundry.
Never been a a fan of any of the 351 motors. I love the 390, but never liked the 360( it had limits ), and I'm certain the 352 did also. I hear of the 406, 410, and 427/428 talked about in a similar breath( all being fe motors), but hear of the 429 as being part of the 400, 460 family. I did have a 390 that would get out( bury a 120 speedo needle in a 4x4 truck), so I'll always have place in my heart for the fe ford motors. 💙. Thanks for a little info on the 351 similarities and differences. I recall the 351 m being 1 of the other 2 ( windsor?) modified. A properly set up 390 would give decent mileage no matter what I hauled.
All Ford Small Blocks, that is all 335's, all 302,5.0's. 351's (351c,351w,351m) Share the same Bore spacing. All heads physically bolt on the each others blocks and given the "correct mods" will work on those blocks. The 351m is a tall deck 351c with a 385 (370/429/460) bell housing. The 302/5.0, 351c and 351w all share the same bell housing. The 302/5.0 and 351w intakes are wet and 351c and 351m intakes are dry. The 302/5.0 has 2.25" main bearing size and the 351w main is 3". The 351c main is 2.75".
Absent from your list of Windsor V8s was the 221 & 255. It should also be noted that the 221, 260 and early 289s had a unique bell housing bolt pattern not shared with the later Windsor V8s. The 255 was an '80s vintage smog turd.
Here's a couple of fun facts: The 351 Cleveland and 351 Modified are called "Intermediate blocks", and the 351C was put in the Ford Pantera. (Italian for Panther.)
I always look at the water pump inlets. On a 351w deck has the larger gap between the heads and the water pump. If the motor is assembled. The wider intake manifold is anneasy way to tell if youre use to looking at a 302 size intake.
The 351C was considered a Y block similar to the line of engines 262 to 312 from the late 50's, I had a Cleveland for 18 years in my 71 mustang fastback and have no complaints
Y block ? I don't think so. Never heard a Cleveland called a Y block. Y blocks were done in like 1960 ish
@@oneninerniner3427 had a 71 mustang and it was a y block, Ford had a lot of leftovers in many production vehicles, not hard to tell, half of the timing cover was cast from the block out, many others have aluminum plates for the water pump, 71 is still 60 ish, so if you want to argue? You'll do it alone
I was taught that the Windsor was a Y block motor and the Cleveland a V block motor. the Y being a stronger bottom end due to the casting shape.
Thank you very much for Stating for didn't have small blocks of big blocks But engine families. every time I say that the people They think i'm an idiot.
I had a 74 LTD with a 351 not sure if it was a Windsor or a Cleveland but it would move that giant yacht pretty well.
Unless somebody replaced the Clevo with a Winsor it would be a Windsor