Tutorial: Cleaning, lubricating and fixing an Apple 800k 3.5" floppy drive
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- čas přidán 12. 09. 2024
- Let's take an in-depth look at how to clean and fix a Sony/Apple MFD-51W-03 800k 3.5" double sided floppy drive. (Also applies to MFD-51W-10 and MFD-75W-01G 1.44mb high density drive which work basically the same way.)
This is a long and in-depth video showing you exactly the method I use to bring these drives back to life.
This drive was extremely gummed up from age so needed to be disassembled and cleaned. Then, the eject mechanism was not working correctly so I troubleshoot and fix that. Finally, the eject gear stripped so I replace that.
NOTE: Camera recorded in the wrong mode -- sorry about the worse than normal picture quality.
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Replacement 3D printed gear I used: (US based)
www.ebay.com/i...
www.ebay.com/i...
Another seller of replacement gears: (Italy based and cheaper)
www.ebay.com/i...
Little squeezy bottles: (available elsewhere too)
www.amazon.com...
![Gear FIX & Molykote LUBE of Apple 1.44MB Floppy Drive [MP-F75W-02G]](/img/n.gif)
Apple didn't anticipate the need for the drive to last 30+ years. But the amount electro-mechanical engineering that went into this thing is very impressive.
for re-inserting the retention rings, I have used something like a small tube to give even pressure around the pin when pushing it down. In particular, I am using part of an old ball point pen that had a fairly small opening but a good way to grip it. Awesome video as always.
That's a great suggestion! :)
I often use a nut driver of appropriate size.
Perfect timing. The storms woke me up and I can't get back to sleep. Made some tea and an Adrian repair video pops up!
I am so glad that you're saving these drives from ending up in landfills. Thisnis the most humane act of preservation of classic disk drives I've seen so far. But i wonder if cheap beer would work better than IPA. A thumbs up for you. Thanks for posting this video!
You can definitely disassemble the PCB as well, it just comes out together with the motor. he PCB is held on with plastic tabs like the cover for the gears. It's just needs a little more caution doing so.
This was a very thorough and entertaining video. I don't even own one of those drives, but loved to watch this. Thanks for yet another great video!
To put lubricant on tiny things, i made the experience that toothpicks do a proper job. Sometimes I simply half a q-tip in a way that the half is peaked. The sharped plastic stick is also really flexible to bring the lubricant around corners.
They're not plastic anymore. The stems are biodegradable paper now, at least in the UK they are
@@simontay4851 In the US, often the cheaper, store branded cotton swabs still have plastic stems, although usually hollow
Yes, the same hollow plastic stemed cotton buds were common in the UK as well. Plastic stemmed cotton buds and plastic microbeads in face washes/cosmetics/bathroom products are now banned by law to reduce plastic waste entering the sea and landfills.
@@simontay4851 probably banned in california then in that case, but we still have them in here in MI
Many thanks for this Adrian! I've been watching your videos for a while, finally took the plunge and bought a few Mac SE/30s in a bit of a state. Two completely dead, full of dust floppies both fully operational and as good as new again. No way I'd have got them apart and back together without this video. Keep up the good work 🙂
I've never worked on Apple drives before and this video was perfect for me! Thank you!!
Wow, I watched more than a half hour Adrian repairing a disk drive. And liked it a lot. And thanks for the Outtake.
Adrian, thanks for sharing this video - it’s the best and most thorough tutorial on how to do it i’ve seen. I’ve serviced a few of these floppy drives in the past, but not often (so i keep forgetting the detail!), and this is a great guide i can refer back to. Will try those replacement gears too... cheers! Joe
I think my favorite part was the side by side replay of ejection speed evolution. Nice work, Adrian! I also haven't really had to service any old PC 3.5" drives despite their mechanical nature. Belt-driven drives like MSX and Nintendo? Those definitely need TLC.
@@adriansdigitalbasement Yes! Cleaning all of that old gunk out and replacing the belt make up the primary needs of those drives, however sometimes that alone isn't enough. I ended up adapting a PC 3.5" drive for my MSX after the belt replacement didn't work. It is possible I just missed a detection switch (this was 10 years ago). Thanks again for your video because it got me thinking about revisiting that MSX drive.
The transition from these complicated mechanical monstrosities to flash drives reminds me of the transition from ICE to electric motors :)
Electric cars aren't even a new thing there are a couple earlyish 1900s electric cars.
So glad I found this. I have three 800k drives that I was trying to make one working drive from and all three have a broken gear plus need a good cleaning. I ordered the gears from eBay and will be able to get them all working again thanks to this video. Thanks!
How did it go?
@@dschult3 Perfect. I fixed all three drives. Thanks!
Phenomenal video, thank you for going so in-depth about every possible issue this drive could have. You helped me get my old SE/30 back up and running!
The four “pegs” on the disk tray are sleeve bearings that often seize up. You can get work them loose again by applying some silicone lubricant and then covering them with paper towel to protect it from some plyers and gently but firmly rotating them back and forth until it loosens up, then apply more lubricant
I just got a Unidisk 3.5 and the disk got jammed. This video helped me take it apart to get that disk out. When I find the Lithium and Silicone I bought when I first watched this video, I will clean it like you show.
Note: prior to watching this, I was able to get the lever on the right to close the door on the disk, but it was still stuck. Per your video, I removed the top mechanism (but with the disk still in, cuz it was stuck). and then I discovered a little latch on the left that was hooking the disk. It only needs to move a little bit to release, but dang it holds that disk in place very firmly and it wasn't evident to me that it was there, let alone the culprit.
Oh man, that left side on the top of my mechanism was stuck solid. Windex and a toothbrush freed it up pretty quickly.
This is an excellent tutorial on how to clean and fix these drives, Thank you so much. I'm using this video now to service my own drive
These Sony drives Apple used make such a recognisable noise that has also been used in numerous movies and TV series. Good work to keep them running!
The green on the eject motor gear was definitely oxide from the brass gear on the motor shaft
I am not so sure its an oxide because a lot of copper compounds are that color but it definitely was some standard copper degradation. Brass being an alloy of copper, of course. On copper roofs they call it verdigris. They're usually caused by ammonia which is why I wouldn't use the window cleaner for a job like this (unless its washed off by water afterwards)
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verdigris Read about it. Acetate and carbonate, not oxide.Copper oxide is red, picture here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper(I)_oxide
The other oxide of copper is black, pictured here:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Copper(II)_oxide
You should not speak so *definitely* about things you don't know. Go back to facepalming apparently you might do that well.
ARRRGH! I just moved, unpacked my collection and two of my 6 Apple 3.5" 800k drives are acting up. One has a broken gear for the eject mechanism which I can easily fix thanks to this video! The other one will works fine except it will not initiate an eject when the eject button is pushed. I've taken it apart and swapped the gear and motor with the other unit and that works, so it't not the eject motor or the gearbox. I checked the switch, and tried the switch from another unit, it's fine. I also looked over the board for bad traces, leaky caps etc. and checked the connector for broken solder joints of which I found none. If anyone has experience with a drive that won't trigger the eject motor, please chime in, Thanks!
looks like it was in fact the motor, it's DEAD, binding and gets warm unject an eject. I pulled the gear from that gearbox to get one working drive from the 2. Does anyone know where to find a replacement OMRON motor?
@14:43 - I use a small 1/4" drive deep-well socket to push those retainers back on. The socket only needs to be a tiny bit smaller than the retainer, and it works great. :)
Thank you very much for the comprehensive drive cleaning/repair video Adrian!
I wanted to share that I used a battery blocker from ifixit which came in a toolkit to get those black rings off around 9:00 in to the video very easily. Looks like they sell them individually too if anyone would like one.
I put those rings back on with steel angled tweezers since I don't have much in the way of nails. Happy repairing, everyone.
"Is this the Crusty Crap?"
"No, this is Adrian."
i guess im randomly asking but does anyone know a way to log back into an instagram account?
I was stupid forgot my login password. I would appreciate any tricks you can give me.
@Beckett Roland Instablaster :)
@Braylon Derrick I really appreciate your reply. I found the site thru google and Im in the hacking process atm.
Seems to take quite some time so I will get back to you later with my results.
@Braylon Derrick DAMN IT REALLY WORKED! Literally got access to my IG password within about 45 mins of using the site.
Just had to pay 15$ but definitely worth the price =)
Thank you so much, you saved my account :D
@Beckett Roland happy to help :)
I’m so glad you showed us this. The details you revealed about the mechanism are precious.
Wonderful experience watching the mechanism within this floppy drive, also came across special tricks, lubricants for such jobs. I was wondering what special type the factory use, now I know!
I still posses one this drive in my old PC (not in use). That drive use to fail 'detect' . This may encourage me to survey the problem there in. Thanks a lot for this detailed video explanation. 🙏.
I thought the drive of this Mac SE was dead, followed your video everything is working great on this computer !!! Thanks a lot for sharing !!!
No other computer sound evokes so many memories. God how i love the Mac floppy eject system. But, oh does it hurt to hear the totally diffenent harmonics of the new gear
@@adriansdigitalbasement I grew up with a classic Mac, then later with a Mac IIcI Both had the exact same sound from the floppy. It truly is distinctive.
Excellent video! Following along i was able to refurb one of these drives and now it works flawlessly!
@10:35 "So of course, the eject butter is gone..." --- I'd sure hope there's no butter in there! Great vid!! I love these teardowns. Going through your backlog now that I've finally caught up on all your mail call videos!
Glad I watched this. I've never serviced the drive in my Macintosh Plus and it's somehow still working, but I expect I will need to sooner or later, and when I do, I will remember this.
You know, I was just thinking, I haven't seen a video from you in a while, great content to watch at 4 (CDT) in the morning, keep em' coming.
What is your day job.
Suggestion: For the round push-on clips you can use a bit driver without a bit or a small socket that is slightly larger than the post to apply even pressure as you push down.
For the rusty or corroded spots, what about a bit of grease over those spots after cleaning to form a barrier against further damage? Keep water and oxygen out. What about a bit of metal tubing from a hobby store to use as a tool to press the plastic washers in place?
Just dug out a quadra 950 and the floppy drive needs a deep clean ! perfect video !
I feel like the counterpoint to your comment about these drives being over engineered and prone to failure is the fact that I have zero fond memories of a PC’s disk drive while this one instantly transports me back to grade school.
For the plastic post retainers, I've had good luck using a small nutdriver that is only slightly larger than the post so the disk gets pushed down evenly.
working on this drive reminded me of watchmakers repair watches... while watches are much smaller, there are many intricate fragile moving parts. No doubt repairing these drives takes much time and effort. This may sound silly, but I truly believe that one needs to have a "passion" for this "hobby" to be successful, and over time that passion feeds/develops into a strong inclination that results in mastering this skill to be good at these repairs. Those with the unique personality that has this passion will never develop the inclination that comes from that passion because without the passion, you'll find yourself bored, frustrated and most likely give up. If you have the passion, it is usually accompanied with an obsession that keeps your mind works continuously thinking about how to resolve the issue, almost 24/7). Those who have this will know what I mean... those who don't won't understand :)
Maybe take a tiny piece of sandpaper and gently sand the hole on the new gear. It might just be a bit rough from the printing process. You would not need to remove much, just remove a tiny bit. That should help. Great video as always Adrian!
Excellent video Adrian! Always learn something by watching your videos. I do a lot of old radio repair and find that white lithium grease does dry up over time and become gummy. I've been using synthetic greases (such as Mobil SHC 220, Super-Lube silicone-based grease, etc...) and find that they don't tend to try up like white lithium. Silicone grease is a good choice for plastics! :) Keep up the great work! You've almost got me convinced that I need to find a old Mac to restore. Not sure what I do with it...but it would be cool! :)
Intro with the late 80s VHS filter... NICE
That buzzing noise the stepper is making! I thought it was a fault of my drive (not having any actual Macintosh software to test)... lost quite a bit of time there! And I had watched this before! Well, thanks twice!
@11:22- As a painter with over 15 years of experience, neither I nor anyone else I've known of has found an effective "rust converter" that keeps rust away longer than a year or so. I admire the extra effort though!
Hi Adrian. I have about 8 of these 800k Apple floppy disk drives. They are all in good condition and lubricated and eject mechanism works great. The only problem I have with these drives is the the head does not read the known good disk and
isopropyl alcohol has to be one of the most misunderstood solvents out there hahah. It does not sterilize and it doesn't work well as an all-purpose cleaner. It is great for stubborn scuffs, permanent marker or other foreign stains that other cleaners can't remove, but there are cases where it still isn't enough. It shouldn't be used on any rubber components as it can accelerate dry-rot with them. I also discovered that it is not the best thing to use on all plastic compounds, especially on vintage electronics, but most ABS computer plastic will hold up fine.
THANK YOU ADRIAN YOU'RE THE BEST!!!!!!Friendly always greetings and best wishes from Hellas (Greece to ya all)
BTW have you ever seen glasslingers channel? He tried making a magneton tube tonight. Some fantastic old timey knowledge about electronics is surely being passed on by that guy!
well done, as always. watching you exercise those 2 micro-switches made my day. take care & stay safe.
Hey Adrian, I have a suggestion. I think it would be really enjoyable and also helpful if you would consider doing a series of disk drives, (Tandy drives come to mind) cleaning them, pointing out similarities and differences, disassembly tips, etc. I really liked this video, but don't personally own any apple products.
I remember when these where over £100 each , I still have stock of both 661-0474 & 661-0121 drives (yes those are the official Apple part number and yes I recalled them from memory!)
I found this interesting and entertaining. I may even have learned something. Thanks Adrian.
Kersine or benzin or gazoline can be used to erase corrosion stain, if rust isn't deeply get into metal.
So after applying IPA it is good to rub rusty stains with a cotton swab dipped in kerosine.
Very helpful video! I dismantled two 3.5" floppy drives (Apple 800k) and have lubed them up - both small gears shredded (as shown in your video) - new VesperWorks gears are on order. Hopefully I can revive the two floppy drives and put them back to work on my newly rehabilitated Apple IIgs...
Great Video includes lots of very useful information better video about MAC/Apple 800K floppy drives!
Excellent video Adrian. I'll be following your instructions as I go through a drive I recently acquired.
Thanks a lot man, your video helped me a lot disassembling and servicing my Quadra 900 floppy. Tomorrow I'll finish re greasing it and testing it.
Thank you Thank you Thank you. I have this identical drive and it not working drove me bonkers! This detailed video on disassembly and lubrication fixed my problem! I am extremely happy when guys like you post such concise helpful videos. Thank you! I sub'd.
Just cleaning the drive of my SE/30, following along. Feeling a little like Baumgartner Restoration.
Oh, no. I just found that the eject lid on the right where the paperclip should push against is broken off. What to do… Solder something on?
I will be using this to service my macintosh SE drive. Very cool video thanks.
Yeah, those posts are a pain. Try using a small socket to apply equal pressure on it's outer edge. They set better that way too because the socket isn't as squishy as we are. As for cleaning the heads. I prefer to set the q-tip between the heads and gently scrub back and fourth. It pretty much guarantees that you don't over torque them because the only force being applied is that which it was designed to endure. I would highly recommend putting your white lithium grease in a syringe because it's way less messy. Especially if you get the syringe tips for model glue that come with a cap. Hard to find but SO worth it.
Adrian, Great video, thanks so much. As I speak I am having the exact same problem with my eject motor on my IIgs 3.5 drive.
I had to replace the gear, which crumbled, just got them yesterday and now mostly get the half eject issue. Tomorrow I will take it apart and give it the DeTox. Much appreciated
Brad Hansen
Adrian Black the IIGS auto eject motor seems to have a slightly different setup. The circuit is on the side of the motor, and I haven’t been able to find the openings on the housing in which to spray the DeoxIt D5 inside. Both 3.5” floppies have the same symptom, where they get “stuck” half way while attempting to eject a floppy disk. It’s been super frustrating to be so close to getting it to work but just falling short of success.
Brad Hansen I’m having the exact issue. Replaced the gear but the drive only ejects half way. I’m unable to locate the opening on the IIGS auto eject motor as it has a slightly different setup. If you were able to get this working Brad, let me know. I’ve got two IIGS drives with the same “half eject” issue.
@@KrishnaDraws Hi, yes I was able to get this working on my IIgs, rather sluggish but it does work. Just follow the wires where they go down in the motor and spray down in there. That's what I did maybe I was lucky, also sprayed most everything else with DW-40. Cheers.
@@bradhansen2065 Very cool! Congrats! Yesterday,I was able to get one of my IIGS drives to finally eject, but then after several tests, the Shapeway replacement gear stripped :( I believe it's exactly the same issue Adrian mentioned in his video. The replacement gear is too snug and doesn't freely spin as the old one did. (My order came with four replacment gears, and they all have the same issue.)
Krishna Draws I bought mine from Shapeway also. But their are other places to get the gear and much cheaper too. So look around.
Thanks, Adrian, for making this video. I found it informative and it is helping me clean and repair my Mac SE 800k Sony drive. Thank you!
Excellent ! merci pour cette leçon de patience et de détermination avec résultat...
I'm guessing the high density drives in the SE/30 and Classic II are pretty much the same? I think mine have a lot of the symptoms you talked about, and I haven't been able to get them going with a head clean. Probably need a full tear-down and clean, so this should be a really handy guide!
Awesome! Looks like I've got a project for the weekend!
Wow Adrian. Great video. I learned a ton with this one. Thank you !!
Just what I needed. Thanks
Thanks for this tutorial! Just revived my Appled 800k floppy for my Amiga 2000 A-Max-based hackintosh. :)
Used this to fix two Mac SEs! Now I'm trying to make a boot disk lol
This video is fantastic! Thanks so much for making it.
You've made my day. Thanks!
Thanks for this resource. Just what I needed to know!
I just love the irony of testing a Mac diskette drive with a disk from Intel.
Awesome!
Huh. I learned something today. I didn't know those little retaining clips on the bottom eject mechanism were plastic. I opted not to mess with them on the drives for my Quadra 700 and just cleaned around them and applied grease around them and it worked fine enough, but if it does lock up again I know where I messed up, LOL.
Also, with regard to the pegs on the side of the upper mechanism, the guide I originally used some years back when I did this said those should spin freely, and if not just gently grip them with pliers, use some WD-40, and it should get them to spin freely again. Not sure how much that really matters in the grand scheme of things, though.
Really neat mechanism, it's quite the task to keep them working, but...
@@adriansdigitalbasement on their own, floppy drives aren't that complicated, but I do admit that the mechanism of those Apple FDDs are somewhat complicated-looking (my biggest fear with these, is to never be able to put it back together, or to accidentally throw off the head alignement) but really fascinating, at the time when the original Macintosh was released, I don't really think PCs had started using 3½ floppies back then (unless my dates are wrong), so it's kinda neat to see an early floppy mechanism in action, compared to the more standard 3½ PC floppy drives which more or less were the same, with some having some differences.
Overly complicated with these drives since Apple wanted a software-based eject. :)
@@jdryyz haha yes, I think some PC floppy drives could also be ejected from software (while still keeping a regular eject button), I'm not entirely sure if that ever existed however, as it's been very long ago since I have last heard ab out that
Wish someone made those gears out of metal! Fantastic job, I used to refurb the mechanisms on these drives when I worked at dealerships but never had issues with the eject motor, however that was 20-30 years ago. Nice to know how to keep them running. One thing about later Mac OS was that you could assign a particular sound for disk eject! Also the good old Talking Moose would come on and say things like, “Let me have a disk!” or “Put one of those babies in here!”, I won’t mention MacPuke although I just did, and I won’t go into a description of it, but those that remember will know what I’m talking about. Excellent video, excellent job. Only thing I’m wondering is if the PCB on the floppy ever needs any recapping.
I have a feeling that they did think about that and it was probably better to let that plastic gear fail than to have a metal gear rip into the shaft gear requiring a change of the gear and the motor/shaft assembly - the thing was spinning at a good clip when it was working. Just had to order those gear replacements myself.
@@ericjohnson6105 I agree. It's probably a mechanical fuse - well at least it acts like one now.
I see ADB, I click play, I click like.
I have one of these for a IIgs that needs an eject gear. Now I have to actually find one!
I've noticed that some lubricants applied to some plastics (can't say what for either as I've never paid much attention to it) results in said plastics disintegrating within minutes, some chemistry stuff going on there I guess, so, could be that the gear was fine and the silicone caused it to break down, personally I'd use a tiny amount of grease on those gears, less likely to cause such issues... :)
When you said IPA I was thrown for a loop...until I realized you meant Isopropyl alcohol and not India pale ale...LMAO
Especially because beer fixes everything.
and because isopropyl alcohol is IA not IPA
@@TotallyOther Not according to wikipeida en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IPA scroll down to chemistry
@@TotallyOther Also not according to the other names in the actual article for Isopropyl alcohol en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isopropyl_alcohol
hello Adrian, thank you very much for this great video guide. I just managed to repair my Apple //c+ 3.5" drive and bring it back to life - even the jest mechanism after disassembling everything and cleaning, greasing the drive mechanics. Seems like the 3.5 drive is the same as in the Mac? Thx again!
I think you can find Rust reformer in little cans and sometimes in touch-up bottles; but I haven't looked for it in years.
Nice! Any chance of a video on cleaning and aligning a Disk II drive, think I messed something up so now I have a clean non-working drive and working drive that looks like it was dragged from a lake.
Wow! I have an 800k drive that won’t eject, now I know why! Thanks!
It's so weird that tech like this, only really breaks when it's not being used for a long-ass time. xD
using them, keeps them in shape. xD
Sir, clear nail polish works wonders for rust prevention, this and a soft eraser helps to clean off contacts.
Lint free coffee filters with IPA rock under certain applications.
All good to know. Thank you very much.
This is an awesome tutorial. Thanks
Gonna be calling you "Gearstrippa" Black from now on :) Two thumbs up!
I finally received the Shapeway gears. They seem to work well, but I'm running into an issue where the auto-eject motor isn't providing enough torque to fully eject the disk. I'll have to track down a bottle of Deoxit and give it a try.
Hi Adrian, I thought lithium grease was specifically for plastic to plastic joints, but you say you wouldn't recommend it. Can you tell me why? For metal to metal joints I thought oil based long term greases would be good? What is good for plastic gears then? Isn't silicone oil a bit thin? BTW: You're great, been looking through your CZcams library for days! Keep up the good work! :-D Thanks & best regards, Chris from Hannover in Germany :-)
I have an Apple external floppy drive and would like to make a “useless box” out of it. Push the disk in, have it auto eject. After watching this I think I can just provide power to this motor and it will complete a rotation and eject the disk when a disk is inserted...?
at 14:50 I use a small hex driver to put them plastic thing on, much like the plastic retention of a fan
Stick around for the 'post credits' outtake 😅
@@adriansdigitalbasement I did that once with a fdd, while taking the eject plate out. How did you get it back into position, unscrew the two screws and realign? Or did you have to needle nose the flex plate straight?
A good thing about low density stuff like that is that it's pretty forgiving in alignment, I think I eyeballed the top head position to line up atop the bottom head. I still never trusted it writing disks afterward though.
to help push those round "clips" find a small socket and use that
There are some actual rust removal chemicals, I've heard of the brand name evaporust a few times and your deoxit might also work for treating the rust on the frame without adding anything to gunk up the mechanisms.
Thanks for this video Adrian, I just picked up an external 800 k that has the exact same issue, crumbled "orange" gear, plastic and metal NEVER play well together! 8(
Did you have to go over the new 3-D printed gear and make sure all the pins were the same shape etc, or was your supplier (VesperWorks?) shipping perfect printed material?
I did not have as much luck and the first thing that happened is the new gear's post hole was so tight it ended up lifting the post out when tried to remove it. I see now that the gear must spin freely on the post, it does not keep snug to the post and the post spins. I guess I need to make the post hole a little larger, which will be no small task without breaking the new gear 8(.
Keep up the vids, we appreciate your hard work and attention to detail.
Update: Turns out the probes on my Micronta Multimeter are the PEFECT diameter for the gear's hole and after carefully wiggling it in and out of the gear, the hole was now a perfect fit for the small shaft and spins with relative ease, that solved my problem after putting it back together, the eject now works fine, and as you say, its a little louder with these 3D printed gears.
Hi Adrian, thank you for this in depth tutorial! I tried to lubricate and replace the disintegrated eject motor gear, unfortunately when I reassemble my Mac Plus and turn it on the eject motor is spinning continuously and the screen wont turned on. Strange considering i've just re-capped the analog board couple months ago and work fine until I tried to repair the drive.
Why not use lithium grease on plastic? Manufacturers commonly use it for plastic parts. It’s in tons of things like CD players, tape decks, etc.
Just had to replace that gear in my 800K Mac drive. Even bought new floppies to see if it would work. Doesn't seem to like to format any of them. However I don't really think its the drive as my Amiga also is having problems formatting the disks. Seems like 720K PC formatting on the Amiga works the best on them, i don't know if that from less sector area or what though.