What's keeping this Apple IIc from working?
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- čas přidán 3. 01. 2020
- Today it's time to troubleshoot and fix a dead Apple IIc computer!
--- Time Code Jumps
0:52 - Intro to the Apple IIc
4:18 - Powering the machine up for the first time
8:40 - Starting the troubleshooting
11:42 - Dealing with rusty case screws
11:57 - More troubleshooting with the oscilloscope
29:18 - Upgrading the Apple IIc ROM from ROM 255 to ROM 0
32:14 - Using a Macintosh mouse on a IIc
33:59 - Figuring out why the machine doesn't always boot
--- Video Links
IZ8DWF's channel: (he always gives me great advice on fixing these old machines)
/ iz8dwf
Apple IIc ROM 0 upgrade:
www.bigmessowires.com/2015/05...
65C02 information:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WDC_65C02
Apple IIc Schematics:
mirrors.apple2.org.za/ftp.app...
4164 DRAM Datasheet:
www.minuszerodegrees.net/memor...
DRAM list from:
www.minuszerodegrees.net/memor...
Apple II Technical Manual:
ia800607.us.archive.org/25/it...
Apple II ROM Images: (including the Apple IIc ROM I used)
mirrors.apple2.org.za/ftp.app...
--- Tools
Deoxit D5:
amzn.to/2VvOKy1
store.caig.com/s.nl/it.A/id.16...
Jonard Tools EX-2 Chip Extractor:
amzn.to/2VazxDS
www.jonard.com/Products/EX-2-...
Wiha Chip Lifter:
amzn.to/3a9ftWw
www.wihatools.com/precision-c...
O-Ring Pick Set: (I use these to lift chips off boards)
amzn.to/3a9x54J
Elenco Electronics LP-560 Logic Probe:
amzn.to/2VrT5lW
Hakko FR301 Desoldering Iron:
amzn.to/2ye6xC0
Rigol DS1054Z Four Channel Oscilloscope:
www.rigolna.com/products/digi...
Head Worn Magnifying Goggles / Dual Lens Flip-In Head Magnifier:
amzn.to/3adRbuy
TL866II Plus Chip Tester and EPROM programmer: (The MiniPro)
amzn.to/2wG4tlP
www.aliexpress.com/item/33000...
TS100 Soldering Iron:
amzn.to/2K36dJ5
www.ebay.com/itm/TS100-65W-MI...
EEVBlog 121GW Multimeter:
www.eevblog.com/product/121gw/
DSLogic Basic Logic Analyzer:
amzn.to/2RDSDQw
www.ebay.com/itm/USB-Logic-DS...
Magnetic Screw Holder:
amzn.to/3b8LOhG
www.harborfreight.com/4-inch-...
Universal ZIP sockets: (clones, used on my ZIF-64 test machine)
www.ebay.com/itm/14-16-18-20-...
RetroTink 2X Upconverter: (to hook up something like a C64 to HDMI)
www.retrotink.com/
Plato (Clone) Side Cutters: (order five)
www.ebay.com/itm/1-2-5-10PCS-...
Heat Sinks:
www.aliexpress.com/item/32537...
Little squeezy bottles: (available elsewhere too)
amzn.to/3b8LOOI
--- Links
My GitHub repository:
github.com/misterblack1?tab=r...
Commodore Computer Club (of Portland, Oregon and Vancouver, Washington)
www.commodorecomputerclub.com/
Tivoo Pixel Art Display seen in my videos:
www.amazon.com/Divoom-Tivoo-r...
--- C64 Stuff
JaffyDOS:
blog.worldofjani.com/?p=3544
C64 Test Harness I use:
• Building a Commodore 6...
C64 Homebrew cartridge PCB: (used for the DeadTest / Diag Cart I use)
www.ebay.com/itm/Commodore-64...
EasyFlash 3 Multi-Cart:
store.go4retro.com/easyflash-3/
--- Instructional videos
My video on damage-free chip removal:
• How to remove chips wi...
--- Music
Francis Preve - Wild Pogo
Unicorn Heads - Telepathic Drive
Intro music by:
Nathan Divino
@itsnathandivino
Outro Music:
Abyss by | e s c p | escp-music.bandcamp.com
Music promoted by www.free-stock-music.com
Attribution 4.0 International (CC BY 4.0)
creativecommons.org/licenses/...
--- Image Credits
Apple IIc pictures (used on Thumbnail and in video):
By Bilby - Own work, CC BY 3.0, commons.wikimedia.org/w/index...
Mac IIx Picture:
CC BY-SA 3.0, commons.wikimedia.org/w/index...
Apple IIgs Picture:
By Not specified. - www.allaboutapple.com/museo/ap..., CC BY-SA 3.0, commons.wikimedia.org/w/index...
Mac IIsi Picture:
CC BY-SA 2.5, commons.wikimedia.org/w/index... - Věda a technologie
My girlfriend keeps talking about wanting a new Macbook. It is incredibly tempting to buy her one of these for her birthday so I can film the reaction.
Hopefully Paul daniels' wonderful boardview software will help you fix it if anything ever goes wrong with it since there won't be any fanspin on these old girls. Way more reliable than these newer macbooks so it's probably a good investment
At least the keyboard actually works in this Apple product
You should probably get her the Apple II, as at least when it breaks after a few years, she can give it you back and you will actually be able to repair it.
Louis get her one of these
czcams.com/video/r9azAdhqo5A/video.html
If it was any nicer...
One of the computer's bugs escaped at 6:12. :D
I see whatcha did there...
@@adriansdigitalbasement Why did you kill it? You could have just put it outside :(
I was about to comment this.
@@adriansdigitalbasement Why would you kill the poor thing that did no harm to you? I never understand why people squash bugs, it causes a mess, gets their hands dirty etc, why not put it out a window?
Sorry but I have to do this: "Buuuuuuuuuuugs!!!!!" dakkadakkadakka
Adrian, your channel is big but it should be bigger. These kinds of videos are so great to watch, not only for entertainment, but to learn a lot of the things others had to do through experience without risking damaging anything in our own hands. I’m an electronics student, and these kinds of videos teach me a lot. Thank you, and keep doing these!
The Apple IIc is probably the most beautiful 8-bit machine out there. It made my day to see this one rescued by Adrian to operational status rather than becoming purely a parts machine or worse ending up in the landfill.
Hey Adrian, prepare for a bump in subs care of Louis Rossmann. On another note, I’m in Portland too and love working on this vintage equipment! I have an original Macintosh on my bench for a recap right now in fact and did an SE30 a couple months ago (connector replacements).
Whenever someone likes this comment I get a notification saying "Hey, Adrian someone..." and it is slowly driving me insane.
@@eden12340 +1 Like 🤣
MoosesValley For shame
Sorry.
Thanks to Adrian Black, 8-Bit Guy, and Retro Recipes, I have had great success repairing, upgrading and modifying all my Commodore and Apple computers. Thank for being so thorough and informative. Long live the Basement! 😁👍
Great diagnosis, again! You're much like the automotive channels i like to follow, very methodological in finding the faults. It soothes the mind and saves old rare computers. You're a pro, not an amateur. Keep bangin', Adrian!
Well there's your problem lady!
Tofu4679 Ah, a fellow South Main Auto fan.
I agree, love the diagnostic mindset... and a careful visual inspection is useful for fixing both cars and computer hardware!
I think Adrian's rate of success in fixing things is even better than those folks who have the proper education and training in electronics....**cough** EEVBlog **cough**
29:24 That actually makes perfect sense if the version byte at 64447 was intended to be read as signed. The two's compliment of 255 for an 8-bit value would be -1.
It may be that they were using negative version numbers to indicate pre-release versions the way that version numbers less than one are used today.
So the version numbers ARE in proper order: -1,0,1,3,4.
A more likely explanation would be that that byte was simply left unprogrammed for the first ROM release, and then retroactively made into a version byte on further releases. Most ROM chips (and modern flash chips for that matter) have 0xFF as the default value for unprogrammed cells so this makes perfect sense.
I love the fact you care about the little things like rusty screws and de-yellowing the plastic. You do things properly, love it :-)
I got a IIc with the same symptoms and I assumed it might be ram. This is the first video out there to really explain what's possibly happening. I'll be sure to comment again when I finally crack it open to check things out. It has to be said that your presentation style is awesome and universal for beginners and experts alike. Subbed!
I _like_ the up-facing sticky tape trick to check for contact, but you might want to do that with a small spacer under the tape so you know you have reliable clearance. Cases flex/expand/contract, after all.
Another option to the old gift card is to learn to play guitar. You'll always have picks around. Except when you actually need them to play the guitar. Another bonus if you go acoustic you'll usually be able to find one in the guitar. Love the videos!
Haha yeah you pretty much only find your picks when you're not using them
I recently bought a toolkit that had a spudger in it that was basically just a guitar pick.
That chunk out of the chip: I suspect what happened was the pin broke off at the edge of the package, and then the person chipped off the bottom to try to get to enough metal to re-solder the pin in place. That looks chipped off, not blown off or melted.
My thoughts also.
Agreed. I remember doing some work like this when I was first learning to solder. It never went well.
Exactly what I was thinking, l know RAM used to be expensive but that is going a bit far!
yep, I'll bet that chip was $$$ back in the day, simple fix and probably worked fine for years
That could be true... YUK!!
Louis Rossman sent me here, he was right. Great video!
This was my first computer. I picked it up at Goodwill. I was astonished at just how easy it was to disassemble. Good memories. The warmstart vs coldstart behavior you're describing actually explains a lot. Back in the day 13-year-old me without any manuals or the internet didn't know how to get into basic from the initial boot prompt. So my solution was to rapidly power cycle to get there. This was also my solution for a later II/GS I acquired.
I do not have an apple of any kind or commodore but I like to watch your videos. I learn a lot. Thank you.
Cool little computer, even today. Love the matching little monitor and mouse that came with it. Great channel Adrian. Between you, 12voltvids, and joes classic games, I think I can learn to troubleshoot and fix almost anything. Thx!
I remember this memory persistence thing from elementary school. Most students would not use apple-ctrl-reset and would power cycle quickly to change programs, and think they broke the computer. Eventually everyone learned to count to 3 before turning the power back on.
Might not just be memory perisistence, but also the power supply capacitors that need time to discharge, so the MMU and the rest of the machine will definitely keep running for a few seconds until the voltage becomes low enough for the chips to shut down. Most 5V logic chips will run OK at voltages down to 3,3V, but when it goes lower, data will get corrupted.
@@Stoney3K Maybe this is why IBM came up with the "power good" signal from the power supply.
I was sent here by Louis Rossmann. I subbed immediately. It’s like a PG version of Louis. Lol.
haha so was I lol!!
ohh I cant remember now, I think it was when he was looking at that new shop with the property agent and measuring up.
The MT branding on the RAM chips is the old Micron Technology logo, it's the same company that still makes computer RAM and SSD's today
If you want to overclock a GTX 1070 graphics card, you will probably want a card with Samsung RAM instead of Micron RAM though.
@@adriansdigitalbasement Contact them and demand warranty replacements :)
I guess Microm got better once they stopped making their chips in the USA... as is clearly stamped on the chip
@@Hagledesperado Really only important for benchmarks. The few hundred MHz (on average, sometimes Samsung VRAM can get a lot higher) difference between them doesn't really translate to much in games or most real-world applications. Micron vs Samsung was more important on the early 2080 ti models, where it seemed like Micron GDDR6 had a higher chance of failure, though Samsung VRAM cards still failed as well. Interestingly, there doesn't seem to be any real OC differences between them when it comes to GDDR6, it's 100% silicon lottery for both companies.
@@adriansdigitalbasement I can just see it now...
Woz: "We need to make a great reliable new version of the Apple II"
Jobs: "We'll take the cheap untested RAM. Just get them out the door, then we'll deny there's any widespread RAM problem"
These are the computers we had when I was in Elementary school. Have tons of good memories playing games on these in kindergarten, first, second, third grade or so. After then, I think our school upgraded to Macintosh computers, but those were only in the school library. Sadly, teachers would never schedule our class to go. I remember using those Macintosh computers two or three times ever. The Apple //c computers were in every classroom, at least 4 of them.
Just mentioning Louis Rossmann got a like from me, LOL! Although I never opened a IIc, I do have fond memories of them during my high school days. And kudos for re-using the TRS-80 Model III badge/label on your monitor!
22:16 I recognize this track from Means Morning News and keep hearing it everywhere, so *thank* you for leaving song titles in the description!
Wow, this just taught me why I would see "ghosts" of previous sessions when I would flip the power on my school's IIC quickly!!!!
Apparently the apple-dealer approved method of popping the case open is to remove the screws, set the machine back down the right way up, flip the handle/stand down so the machine is propped up at the back, lift it a few inches at the back and drop it! The handle will pop the top of the case off. Obviously this may or may not be a good idea with 36 year old plastic, but I tried it on my //c, and it worked! Great video, lots of detailed reasoning and very useful for my own troubleshooting. Thank you :)
i wish i had your patience, i realy love watching you solve the problems with these things its just great
Ive never watched a video that long n interesting, thabks for the content, Louis sent us here !
Never owned these computers from the 80's other than the Atari 2600. But watching your troubleshooting videos makes me want to find one buried in a box at the local flea market & try to bring it back to life. Thanks for the troubleshooting vid!
Adrian.... Row Address Strobe and Column address Strobe... The dynamic DRAM chip bit data is accessed as a row and column address of the bits. They are arranged in a square. 8^2 (256) ROWS x 8^2 (256)columns for 65536 individually addressable bits. If I remember correctly, the refresh is done by a device accessing the RAS and CAS sequentially for all the cells to recharge the capacitance in each bit cell before it drains/leaks out. RAS and CAS are used to access the bit data in a READ, WRITE, or REFRESH operation..
Nice to see new material on retro computing that is this well produced! Cheers from Romania!
I really enjoy observing your logic in your troubleshooting. Happy New Year 2020!
Really enjoyed the technical depth in this video!!
whoah, congrats! It's such a rewarding thing to see a great successful repair on an old computer.
I seriously sit here and watch your videos for hours! Thanks for the great content, Adrian!
I really like the detail you put into your videos. Very informative.
I was more of a Commodore guy back in those days, so this is full of great info. Good job, and keep making the great videos!
That model was an awesome machine.
The first computer we owned when I was a kid was a //c. I remember that the manual said if one wants to power cycle, wait 15 seconds in between off and on.
Wow, that was a very thorough and enjoyable video, Adrian. Great stuff. Subscribed!
Found your channel when I needed to fix my LCD and have subscribed. I enjoy your approach and the journey on these projects.
Man I love watching you troubleshoot! Great job Adrian :D
The videos keep getting better and better. Good work!
This video was excellent! Keep up the good work, Adrian. I'm going to go watch the C64 one, now.
I miss my old 8-bits from time to time, thanks for the video it was fun watching you work on it.
50k subs! Ive been watching for years, glad your gaining subs, quality content
Wonderful video once again. I really appreciate how methodical you are when it comes to diagnosing things. I've learned some good stuff from this channel. Keep the good videos coming
I love the video. Always great explanations, plus when you learn something and show it, we learn with you.
Very well repair, continued efforts for healthing the Apple 2c computer.
Congratulations.
Keep up the the good work.
Adrian, this was a excellent video and I enjoyed watching the way you went about your diagnosis process and repair. Thank you very much for the time in putting this together. Its truly a great job.
Satisfyingly thorough! Also, that soldering pen is so neat
This the proper approach to troubleshoot a non working vintage computer. Loved the video and enjoyed your method.
Louis Rossmann sent me here.
Great video. Very clear fault finding process with interesting info on the RAM data persistence problem.
the apple IIc was the first computer i ever used, i remember playing oregon trail on it all the time when i was little.
Subscribed after watching your Compaq Deskpro vids. I'm a fella in his early 40's who started collecting computers in the late 90's when they were worth nothing. Started with the ones I lusted after as a kid and went from there. I gave away so many that I wish I still had but held onto my IIc along with many others. It's a labour of love and fixing them is a major part of the fun.
Great content and great troubleshoot, Adrian. As usual.
Love the scene in "2010" Where Roy Scheider uses one of these at the beach with that rare LCD snap on screen.
Love watching your videos. Always very informative. Keep up the good work.
Great video, sir! What a nice blast from the past! I was about 22 yrs-old when these came out and colleges and universities rushed to install them. I've forgotten most of the commands but hearing about PEEK and POKE made me smile and nod. I came here via a shoutout from Louis Rossmann's channel, by the way. One new sub for 2020! 👍
I'm a new subscriber currently working on an Apple IIc similar to what I used in college. I like the detail you go into on this video, which should help me along the way to restoring my very worn out IIc. I will eventually get around to going through all of your videos in the near future. Keep up the great content.
5:13 probably the most colorful picture I've ever seen coming out of an Apple II
Hi Adrian ! I just discovered your channel and I love it ! I'll have to send you one of our finest French made Thomson MO5 or TO7 so you can check it...
Thanks for passing on all this knowledge in such a clear and lively way. Keep up this great work !
Thank you for this video Adrian - highly entertaining and a good document on how to keep a IIc running.
Great video! I toy around with some vintage computers, but this is next level. You are brilliant!!! I have a Tandy 1000 doing something very similar and I am going to try the piggyback on the ram chip!!! Love your videos!
Hi Adrian
I rarely comment on your videos even if I watch all of them, I just wanted to say I'm proud of the work you're doing and for the MASSIVE improvement of the audio/video quality.
Keep up the great work.
Really great fault find thanks for sharing. I normally restore vintage radios but thinking of trying a vintage computer so I’m bulk watching all your videos to see how you fault find. Thanks Regards Chris
Loving the music Adrian. Totally captures the appropriate vibe of your content!!!
Love your videos Adrian! Thank you for an awesome repair and keep up the great content!
Nice troubleshooting! (And you've definitely got the right scope!)
Many thanks! Love my apple II's, and my C128. I watch all your videos, keep up the good work.
pumping out the content. love it. keep up the great work!
It was very interesting to see your troubleshooting of the first Apple I ever purchased. As my friends say often, I've had so many apple products, I bleed in 6 colours! Cheers from Canada.
I picked up an Apple IIc from Craigslist recently. You've given me a good introduction and got me thinking about taking a crack at it. Congrats on all the new subscribers!
Love the Apple II videos! Keep them coming :)
Thank you for appeasing people like me by covering that ROM window. Great video!
My first computer. Such great memories.
That piggyback chip trick is genius.
Fun video again! I always enjoy restoration videos ! Thanks.
This was great! My 2nd computer fixed! Awesome work, bro!
That keyboard has the best-feeling switches I've ever used. (We had a lab full of these in my elementary school, most of them had the crunchy Alps keyboards.)
Thanks for explaining how everything works!
Love your method for checking clearance with the scotch tape. Thinking outside the box!
Awesome video overall too!
Your Intro video makes me so happy :)
I had grown up with 8bit and 16 bit machines...
Then i moved on but looking at this videos is like time machine for me, because most of those machines had some troubles from time to time, and most of them were fixed by my father on spot in his shop.
Great job!
Thanks for this! Learned a lot about how the Apple II deals with RAM from this video.
I actually have one of these myself! Though it doesn't work unfortunately. I have no idea about anything when it comes to working on old machines like this, but your videos have given me quite a bit of insight. Thanks!
Adrian, great as always. You make me jealous with your excellent explanatory skills, sir! Come to KansasFest in 2020!
2:00: Somebody PLEASE share the link of that video where someone couldn't open the floppy drive. I MUST see that.
Well... I just want to say you: Thank you. I am learning a lot with your videos.
When you have to remove THT DIL chips (or some SMT packages as well) from a board, if you know the chip is bad or you have a replacement, then I find it easier to just snip off the legs close to the chip body using a pair of micro side cutters. Then the chip will just drop off, and it is much easier to de-solder the legs one at a time (like you did at 23:53 in this video) and clean out the hole (or SMT pad). This minimises the risk of damaging the PCB pad and hole plating. I have also used this technique to remove multi-way connectors, although it can be awkward depending on the connector type.
This helped me so dang much on my Apple IIC, Thank you!
Sorry. Late post. But I have really been enjoying watching the troubleshooting vids. Thank you!
I've seen ICs damaged like that from an internal malfunction. Static discharge or electrical transients can cause the gate logic on those parts to short out and self-destruct. The package literally pops and cracks just like that. That blackened flakey area was likely also overheated internally from a short that may have also heated the pin and the PCB, which could have caused the via to release from the PCB substrate. The shorts on the part also cause havoc on other parts connected to the signals net...
Now I wish I hadn't given up all my HW over the years. I miss my SuperPet 9000 the most.
Cheers.
I love your mention of Louis Rossmann as I just got done watching his new video :D I'm enjoying your channel, and subscribed!
Huh, I had no idea about that warm reset thing. I recently picked up a IIc, and I thought it was weird that I had to wait like 30 seconds to simply power cycle the machine. Didn't know about the apple+control+reset thing, that'll be very helpful as I work through getting it serviced and learning how to use it! Thanks for sharing that info!
Another fascinating video - learning so much from these. Thanks for sharing. Nice trick with the Scotch tape.
@40:18 The person how soldered these chips on probably heated the chip up too much. So the plastic cracked and broke off, same of that shiny part probably too much heat from the soldering process too
That shiny stuff is most likely just some flux residue
This was nice to see. While I never owned an Apple, we had Apple II+s in and then Apple IIes in high school back in the dusty past. These were mostly used in "Computer Science" classes where we learned BASIC and Turbo Pascal programming (the "E"s had CP/M cards with Z80A processors installed). Interesting machines. All the 8-bit micros had personality, unlike today's rubbish. A world that runs on '80s technology would be a heaven. It was the best of times.
Watching these is inspiring. They almost make me think I could do this myself, but I don't have an oscilloscope.
This is immensely helpful, thank you so much for this sir! Rock on!
Louis sent me here, such refreshing cool content!