What I love about CZcams is that I get answers to questions I never asked myself. You stumble upon incredible content creators and now, out of nowhere, you developed an interest about saws. Thank you stranger on the Internet to share your knowledge and point of view, it was valuable and quite fun to watch 😊👍
I use Japanese saws for resawing and cross cutting and western saws for dovetails and cutting tenons and miters ... Both have their place in my shop and I like both.
Exactly. I use both as well, but I am still skill building as a relative beginner. New construction house building was pretty much power tools, a 4-in-one rasp/file, a 3/4" chisel, and a speed square. Now that I am trying my hand and hand tools, I will typically reach for my Japanese style saws for most things. I still re-saw with power tools at the moment as replacing boards after messing up a cut is still out of my budget. Getting materials is tight on my fixed budget.
One thing sometimes helps on a tight budget is old pallets. The wood is thin and you have to plan around nail holes but it's free. Some of the hardwood ones have really nice wood in them
@@tryingagain14 thanks, I have been on the lookout, but with the major pallet builder/recycler in my geographical area being in my town, the hunt for pallets usually only turns up busted pallets. The good ones are typically securely stored and or picked over and sold back to the pallet company at $2.00 each. I have managed to find three pallets with usable lumber in them in the last year. The only local "big box store" charges $11 per pallet to deliver lumber and building supplies on, so their customers usually return thkse to the store to get that charge reimbursed. I still try to keep an eye out, but unless all I want to build are tiny boxes, there not usually enough usable wood to make it worth the while to have to find somewhere to dispose of the broken pieces of the majority of a pallet that I come across. I have been threatened with the police being called for theft charges just for looking at many stores pallets that are not secured. Different rules in different areas, I suppose. But thanks for the tip.
@@thomasarussellsr ok gotcha. Around here they tend to put them out for whoever to pick up. I'd be shocked here if the police even bothered to look at you (unless they were helping load). Sounds like you're in an area that's tight for free wood. Best luck -Miles
@@tryingagain14 thanks Miles, yeah, unless I come across a home owner who cut down a tree and just wants the logs gone..., well, you know... I get them to help me load what I can and come back with my Alaskan mill for the bigger stuff, but that's only happened twice, so far. Most want to keep it for firewood for themselves or to sell. My biggest source of free wood is the occasional old furniture set out on the trash pick up days. I hate it when I stop and it's fibreboard or something really cheap and week, but I have gotten a few decent pieces.
I mostly use power tools but have recently started dabbling with hand tools and I find the Japanese saws to be significantly easier to use than western. The guiding tooth geometry was something I never realized but that makes a lot of sense. I did notice the thinner kerf of the ryoba and I thought that was why it was so much easier to use. I guess that's only part of the story though. Very interesting. Also as a new hand tool woodworker I would rather shoot a board square after going on a slight angle with my ryoba than try to even out a squirrely cut from a western saw that's been overcorrected multiple directions. Maybe another consideration.
I started my cutting career in plumbing. Even then I hated the fact that everyone set their blades to cut on the push stroke. I found it much easier when I flipped the blade around and cut on the back stroke. I guess you now know what style saw I prefer....
Just got my first Japanese Ryoba saw for Christmas present and can't wait to try it. Paul Sellers knife wall really helped me with beginning sawing. Still got a long way to go to get it right but practice practice practice (by making things) was great advice I got from someone. Keep up the good work mate.
Paul Sellers is a wealth of woodworking knowledge. I started using the knife wall a couple of years ago and it has really helped me. Keep it up and you'll see the results.
Wood working was so ubiquitous in the past that it changed the shape of people. Europeans with the push planes and push saws developed wider shoulders and larger chest muscles. While other cultures relying on pull planes and saws have narrower shoulders, slight chest muscles and stronger upper back muscles.
I use both in my shop but tend to almost always reach for the Japanese version of whichever type I need. I like the thinner kerf and due to a genetic disorder, gripping the Japanese handles are a lot easier on my hands than Western handles. I use them along side my Western hand planes and have no issues with pulling a saw and then pushing a plane. It's actually made it easier when I feel the need to flip the plane around and pull it instead of push it (thank you Paul Sellers).
I've never seen a western style flush-cut saw. The fact that the blade needs to bend = needs to be thin = needs to be a pull saw. So I always chuckle when I see woodworkers use the western saw to cut close and then have to pare it with a chisel. I learned about flush-cut saws while working as a rough carpenter (house builder).
I have a cheap japanese saw (similar to what you used as a demo on this video). The little plastic piece that secures the blade to the handle broke. It holds the blade on, but the blade won't stay straight to the handle if a reasonable amount of pressure is applied (like cutting hard wood). I discovered it works beautifully as a drywall saw. Not much dust, super straight cuts and a nice clean edge.
I'm old and traditionally trained, I grew up using all western style tools. Everything Japanese was loudly proclaimed junk. I gladly use both types of saws today as well as a couple Japanese planes. I've found the pull saws fantastic at cutting really difficult pieces with twisted grain, mine left nearly finish ready surfaces in hickory root stock that my freshly sharpened Disstons did not like. I switch back and forth depending on what I'm doing, haven't yet been happy with the results of my pull type bench hook design and my choice for dovetails depends on type of material. I get a lot more wander with the pull saws on short rips in softwood, seems to follow the growth rings, but excells in maple and oak. Far as I'm concerned they both have a place in my shop.
Excellent information. Thank you. I cut my first dove tails with a Japanese saw. I'm better with it now but at first I "wallered" out the kerf closest to me so my joint fit well on the inside but not outside. I got better as I practiced. When I wanted to hand cut finger joints for a small walnut box, I sharpened my father-in-law's old gen saw with a straight handle. Actually I think it might be just a hobby saw for very small wood and plastic parts. But I was able to control it well and it did a nice, tight job on these joints. Thanks again for the info, James.
I use both, started with Japanese saw from harbor freight. Have recently switched to Western saws but at the first sign of trouble I pull out the big ryoba even for the most delicate cuts because I can control it so well. I guide with finger and thumb with light strokes and can do about anything, so I guess that is the secret for me. I also grab the same saw to remove large tree limbs on a few occasions. I should have bought every one in stock, ten bucks , several years ago. Thanks.
Yes, it is hard to tell someone else, especially someone new to woodworking, which saw to use. I've had friends ask me which one they should get and my answer is they should come over to my shop and try using both to see what they like better. I personally use both and it is the project that dictates which one I should use. For small delicate work, I use the Japenese pull saw. The blade is very thin allowing the user to cut an already narrow piece of wood. For basic projects, I will use the western style backsaw to cut my dovetails. But again if it is a small box I am making the J.S. is more appropriate, for me.
Local hardware shop around here don't stock Japanese saws. I don't think our western style saws are quite so expensive either. Having said that, the only saw I have that's not cross-cut is a hacksaw. I don't think they sell the other type here. I find pruning saws to be my favourite. The cheap type go for as little as ZAR25 (about two dollars) but the better ones can cost as much as ZAR300
Bought a Ryoba recently…an eye opener. I found the thin blade buckles out easily on the push stroke…you must ensure you push accurately back through the kerf, on the plus side the blade self straightens on the cutting pull stroke.
i like our tools because i am european but if you are japanese i certainly liked the japanese tools. EVERYTHING GOOD FOR YOUR CHANNEL WHICH IS VERY COOL, there is and it was with our tools that I learned how to work.
I've found I prefer western saws, but Japanese saws are great for fast cross cuts. In limited spaces (like removing panels or fittings), a sharp kataba with a pistol grip is much handier and easier to use. For joinery, and for controlled rip cuts, however, I like western saws.
A point of interest: "Japanese" style saw is a poor choice of wording as they are more correctly termed East Asian style saws. This style is found throughout what is commonly referred to as the Orient/Far East (China, Korea, Japan, Laos, Cambodia, etc.). The common trade names in North America are the Japanese names; however, when properly translated, the names merely reflect the general function (e.g. dozuki = back saw, riyoba = panel saw, etc.). Even the spelling of the names varies because the translation of the various Oriental alphabets to the Roman (Western European) alphabet is not exact.
As a Korean who learnt in america that saws 'cut' when push stroke and my friends tought it was funny and didn't tell me. I needed this video 5 years ago. I would just like to add that in the Asian style pull saws, when you are on the pushing stroke, careful not to push too hard cause you can snape the blade and injure yourself. Also, why is everything East Asian Japanese in western countries? its weird...
The stuff you do is Awesome. In my shop I have mostly western style saws. I have one small flush cut saw that works on the pull stroke, but it is more "Japanese inspired" than Japanese. I carry the small pull saw with me in my truck. but not any of the old Disston's. I carry an assortment of (I know this is really going to get people who watch your channel worked up.) Power saws everyday. I dream of having a really cool hand tool shop, but day in and day out I use battery powered tools. I do very little of my work in my shop; almost all of the things I do are done on site, or in the parking lot almost on site.
I use both types and use them depending on what I'm doing or if I fancy using that type of saw at that time. I'm still relatively new to woodworking so still seeing what's going to work best for what job but for the cost of Japanese saw's it can't hurt to have a few in your arsenal.
Hi James, I enjoy using the Japanese crosscut saws, but I can no more use a Ryoba rip saw than fly to the moon. So as you suggested I have both western and Japanese.
I have been using Japanese style saws for years and several brands even harbor freight. All work well enough. I just recently acquired my first disston thumb hole saw 8ppi rip. I have used western saws as well especially since I learned how to sharpen them. But previously I only had a Stanley sharp tooth saw. At least until the teeth started breaking. Anyway, I like both styles of saws. Sometimes you need to use one over the other for certain tasks. Great video.
I have several of each and I use both styles equally. I do lean more towards my pull saws for cutting joints, but more towards western saws for most of my other cutting needs.
The reasons why I first picked up a ryoba saw and a dozuki saw when I took my very first steps into the world of woodworking: They were available, decently priced and I have never seen used Western style saws around where I live, neither do I know anyone who could give me a lesson or two how to set and to sharpen them. The only way to learn that somewhat in the future will be to buy to cheap Western style saws on ebay, search on youtube for sharpening videos and figure it out myself. Until then, I will learn to master my Japanese style saws to stay on the marking line and do exactly what I want them to do ;)
Japanese philosophy has them work low to the ground and to pull the work towards them in order to pull the energy in the Earth and the wood towards the woodworker.
I have a collection of western saws from my grandfather... I did purchase a Japanese saw last year and I agree It is easier to use for someone who is learning. I have been learning how to makethewestern saws work though.i am happy with both, but when I am looking for a really fine cut I am going to pull out the Japanese saws. I really like the thinner cut.
I use both types, but find that if I am doing a lot of sawing that the Japanese Ryoba saw is better since I have an old elbow injury which my western panel saws aggravate. The Ryoba also allows for a two-handed grip if needed. However if I'm knocking out dovetails I still reach for my Veritas.
It’s never been an an either/or issue with me. I’ve grown more comfortable with Western saws for some things and Japanese for others. “Fite no more, but work ye as brothers”
Well you were fair --- ly biased but honest. As a Westerner, you were exposed to the American saws first and learned woodworking using one... But you gave the Eastern style a good review of its utility and reasons for preferences. I never developed the skill to use a Western saw. I watched my Dad bend several saw blades and never saw a straight line in any wood he cut so ... when I needed to do woodworking, I bought a circular saw and was content.
I have never used a sharp japanese saw but I do prefer western style saws because I'm used to it. I've seen a japanese saw at my upcomming internship so I might try that one out to see if my opinion will change Thanks for making an actualy good comparison video!
Arguing over a type of saw is the epitome of 1st world privilege. I've seen guys who'll make a masterpiece with a rusty garage sale saw, and guys who couldn't cut straight if their life depended on it with the nicest saw money can buy. Hone your craft, then get picky, but only in that order
Japanese saws don't work on western benches (not very well...). Richard (The English woodworker) had a blog post where he stood on his bench and this was how he could do long, straight rip cuts. One other thing: William Greaves / Thomas Flinn makes nice resharpable Gent's saws for around 15€. I have one for dovetailing or as a small tenon saw and I'm really happy with it. They have the straight handle, which I happen to like. @James: and a nice informative video you did there!
I see what you saw. But when push comes to pull you saw, oh I see. By the way has any one ever tried to pull a circular saw. Great video James. I did not know about the control factor between pushing and pulling.
I've been woodworking for about 4 years now, my first 2 years on Japanese saws because they were cheaper and the next on Western style saws once I could afford them. And I have to say I overwhelmingly prefer the western style saws now. I think for me the major factor is everything else I have is Western style. My workbench, benchhooks, my tools all use a certain methodology that feels more natural to the western style so using my western saws feels seamless and natural. My Japanese saws have dulled and I don't feel like burning money on new blades while sharpening my other saws is easy and fast. That being said the western tools are so much more expensive that the Japanese tools really filled that need when I didn't have much. I think it's like you said, use what works for you and don't worry too much about the other stuff until it's time to look for an upgrade. If you end up going full Japanese stuff then you may never switch because the tools have become an essential part of your woodworking flow.
I tried Japanese first too and now I'm all into British/US saws. I imagine the type of workbench matters a lot. I can't understand a waist height workbench with a Japanese saw. That's not even how they use it I guess....
I have 6 old hand saws from 18" to 26" all told I've spent no more than $20 on and all are SPECTACULAR. Granted 2 have needed entirely new handles, 3 needed hammered straight and all have needed a LOT of scrubbing and sharpening but every one to the last has more than proven their worth 10x over
Great video, even though i thought i was well informed about the topic i learned a lot. Thanks. :) Personally I find myself using western style saws for rough cuts usually, where i can lean into the stroke leading to a lot quicker cuts. Japanese saws like the Ryoba are great for flush cuts or long cuts following the grain of the wood (more of an issue with pinewood). The Dozuki comes out when the cut needs to be really narrow and precise like dovetails or cutting thin strips of wood where the little razor-sharp teeth allow for the least amount of ripouts. I'll try using a fine cutting western style saw for dovetails on my next project. Let's see if my sawing-skill improved enough to make me consider my typical choice. :)
I have loved Japanese saws since I first used one. The difference was so apparent to me that I thought that it must be some new impovement in saws. I'm not sure why they appeal to me so much - maybe it's because it seems to take so much less effort. I don't do a lot of sawing of thick material though.
I use western saws, as I can get great quality old saws. Resharpend they are ready to go. As mentioned I love reclaiming old tools and reuse it for another 50 years. Keep a small footprint.
There is also whether you are controlling the cut on the cutting line, or even seeing the cutting line on the near vs far side. And are you working with the work piece face towards or away from you. The western saw will do its chipping out on the back side where as the Japanese saw would chip on the near side.
I have bifocal glasses that I normally wear - but not while woodworking, because of the distortion they introduce in my vision, which can mean what I think is a straight 90 degree cut ends up not being straight when I have finished it. Anyone else have this trouble?
There is one reason to say Japanese saws are more ergonomic. Due to their thickness, Japanese saws remove less material with every millimeter you go downwards, and thus less energy is required to cut the same thickness of material.
Yeah, I've seen rex krueger pull his plane on his shooting board before. And it really is doable in cases where you can't reach, I used it when flattening the workbench Basic western wooden planes are especialy nice to pull
I've never used a Japanese style saw but have often wondered if it would be easier to use with a Western style handle? Holding onto a "*cylinder" and pulling on it seems it would be more difficult than pushing a Western style saw. Of course the height of the work bench might come into play, Maybe Japanese style saw are more suited to very low work benches. As I said, I've never used one. * Yes, I know the handles are wrapped to give a better grip. But pulling a saw at waist height or higher seems more difficult than pushing at that same height.
I actually did that with my first Ryoba (Harbor Freight $10). More than three years in almost half the teeth had come off and I cut it up and made some very flexible and effective detail card scrapers.
I think people misunderstand Japanese saws and how to use them. With a western saw you put the board vertical and cut downwards into it, steering it with the same hand you’re pushing with. With the Japanese saw you want to put the board horizontal and cut forwards into it, pulling with the handle below the board and steering by just putting your thumb on the side of the blade, above the board, to give it a little nudge.
I've never seen a Japanese saw before. I'm not sure what is meant by pull vs push being the material removing step since I think every saw I've used has has removed material on both strokes. Is it a matter quantity? Ie it'll remove more material on this stroke vs the other
Yes, it is a matter of efficiency. On the Japanese saw the teeth are pointing back at you. Whereas on western saw the teeth are pointing away from you. Now on the cross cut side they tend to be pointing straight down so they are equal in both strokes but with rip cutting teeth it is far more apparent.
The fact that you can get a hand forged japanese saw for 100$ is really nice, but they they are not anywhere near the same. Sharpening is whatever, you can learn it, but rip cutting is a problem. I like them and use them for joinery and small panel saw work, they are also kind of better at croscuting. However you simply will not even be able to rip something vertical in a normal vice, it's not even worth trying because you are going against the grain and the only way to make this smooth with such an aggressive tooth is to have at least 10+ teeth engaged in the cut and that's an angle that just doesn't work in a face vise, and that many teeth in the cut does tend to make the cut slower, which is nice for ripping thin small panels to final dimensions, but a bit of a slow hassle four rough rip cuts.
You can't get a clean polished cut with a western saw, western saw cuts leave a ragged cut face that needs cleaning/sanding because of the way the teeth hack through the wood fibres. The Japanese saw cleanly cuts the wood fibres
It sounds like the western saw you're using has a bit too much set in the teeth. If they are set correctly you can get a glass smooth surface off of either saw.
They're both correct. Get a saw setter and look up how to reset the teeth to fix that issue and probably resharpen the teeth. Do it properly and you'll get a clean cut with either style saw.
I was first exposed to Japanese planes and saws about 35 years ago from a luthier from New York city. One thing I learned from him is Japanese tools are designed the way they are because the method of work in Japan is different than a Western woodworker. His claim is Japanese woodworkers user lower benches and sit on the floor while using planes and saws. The CZcams video "Amazing Japanese woodworking skills" shows an example. The long handles in saws and the pull of planes work better in the ergonomics than do western tools where the woodworker pushes the tool. For myself, I find that sitting, on a 5 gallon bucket with a padded seat my wife made, at my western style bench to saw dovetails works well. I lay the wood flat on the bench to cut the tails and pins, with the board just about a foot below eye level. I hold the saw vertically. The long handle and vertical blade make it easier for me to cut the pin and tail. Ditto for making tenons. And, as I age, I find sitting more comfortable for my lower back than leaning over a bench.
Right on. it's a completely different style of woodworking. That's one of the reasons why I don't do too much with Japanese tools as I would really like to do it correctly and have the whole Japanese bench and set up.
the best saw to use is the one that matches the workspace you use it in. You are using a sitting workbench, or a planing beem, and holding the work with your foot; using a western saw will suuuuuuck. If you are using a bench hook on a rubo style workbench, or a bench hook, using a japanese saw may be more difficult.
Recently you issued a video reminding us how to hold the handle of a saw, to get the "balance" right. That was a Western saw. I notice in this video, the Japanese saws have handles that look to me like handles from wood-turning chisels - long and cylindrical. So HOW to we "balance" the saw using those type of handles ?
Great overview! Someday, can you please post a video demonstrating how to perform long rip cuts, re-sawing and deep cross cutting with a ryoba? I'm just getting started, am using a ryoba and find myself working my way down the the line to create a kerf to guide the saw before taking out the center. Is that a beginner handicap I've fallen into to compensate for not being able to control/turn the saw easily? The degree of error on a miss start is magnified on long pieces. Is proper technique to start on the far side or near side of the board with a Ryoba? Is posture different than you demonstrate with western saws? I find myself wanting to have the handle below the board on long rip cuts, even though that makes no sense.
The only real disadvantage to the Japanese saw is probably their fragility. Bending a tooth is easy! And I see no reason for a saw to produce a very clean surface, I use a shooting board or free hand with a plane.
I prefer western saws because I'm on the western side of Japan. If i were on the eastern side of west Japan i would have to go with a Japanese saw..... no I really have a preference for the western saw because that's all i have. And i prefer to be able to cut wood to work wood. Just cant prefer something I don't have. 😉
@@WoodByWrightHowTo you're welcome. Are you sponsored or incentivised by Suizan in any way? How is the performance and the quality of the saw holding up after these years? TX
They sent me one saw around 6 years ago. But no sponsorships and the rest I have purchased myself. I have a couple from other companies. but I like the balance Suizan has. they are not the best saws on the market and they are not the cheapest. they are just a good general bang for the buck.
@@WoodByWrightHowTo fair enough. Can you tell me what the other brand Japanese saws you have please? I'm trying to see if Gyokucho and ZSaw are worth the premium for example. There are some others of course, that could be contenders too.
Most "cheap" Japanese saws have hardened teeth which means you basically need diamond files to sharpen them. The money typically works out daily close in the end after buying diamond files.
Try one of the handmade Japanese saws instead of the mass manufactured variety and get back to me. It's a very different experience and you have to know proper technique to not break the teeth. Downside is you need to send fine tools like that back to Japan for professional resharpening and the waiting list is something else.
Why flip flop like that? Even if we grant that both western and japanese saws work as good, the japanese being cheaper makes it undeniably superior. But the japanese saws are superior, regardless of price: finer cut, easily replaceable blades, tool guidance and flexibility for those tricky cuts. No contest.
What I love about CZcams is that I get answers to questions I never asked myself. You stumble upon incredible content creators and now, out of nowhere, you developed an interest about saws. Thank you stranger on the Internet to share your knowledge and point of view, it was valuable and quite fun to watch 😊👍
I use Japanese saws for resawing and cross cutting and western saws for dovetails and cutting tenons and miters ... Both have their place in my shop and I like both.
Exactly. I use both as well, but I am still skill building as a relative beginner. New construction house building was pretty much power tools, a 4-in-one rasp/file, a 3/4" chisel, and a speed square. Now that I am trying my hand and hand tools, I will typically reach for my Japanese style saws for most things. I still re-saw with power tools at the moment as replacing boards after messing up a cut is still out of my budget. Getting materials is tight on my fixed budget.
One thing sometimes helps on a tight budget is old pallets. The wood is thin and you have to plan around nail holes but it's free. Some of the hardwood ones have really nice wood in them
@@tryingagain14 thanks, I have been on the lookout, but with the major pallet builder/recycler in my geographical area being in my town, the hunt for pallets usually only turns up busted pallets. The good ones are typically securely stored and or picked over and sold back to the pallet company at $2.00 each. I have managed to find three pallets with usable lumber in them in the last year. The only local "big box store" charges $11 per pallet to deliver lumber and building supplies on, so their customers usually return thkse to the store to get that charge reimbursed. I still try to keep an eye out, but unless all I want to build are tiny boxes, there not usually enough usable wood to make it worth the while to have to find somewhere to dispose of the broken pieces of the majority of a pallet that I come across. I have been threatened with the police being called for theft charges just for looking at many stores pallets that are not secured. Different rules in different areas, I suppose.
But thanks for the tip.
@@thomasarussellsr ok gotcha. Around here they tend to put them out for whoever to pick up. I'd be shocked here if the police even bothered to look at you (unless they were helping load). Sounds like you're in an area that's tight for free wood. Best luck -Miles
@@tryingagain14 thanks Miles, yeah, unless I come across a home owner who cut down a tree and just wants the logs gone..., well, you know... I get them to help me load what I can and come back with my Alaskan mill for the bigger stuff, but that's only happened twice, so far. Most want to keep it for firewood for themselves or to sell. My biggest source of free wood is the occasional old furniture set out on the trash pick up days. I hate it when I stop and it's fibreboard or something really cheap and week, but I have gotten a few decent pieces.
I mostly use power tools but have recently started dabbling with hand tools and I find the Japanese saws to be significantly easier to use than western. The guiding tooth geometry was something I never realized but that makes a lot of sense. I did notice the thinner kerf of the ryoba and I thought that was why it was so much easier to use. I guess that's only part of the story though. Very interesting.
Also as a new hand tool woodworker I would rather shoot a board square after going on a slight angle with my ryoba than try to even out a squirrely cut from a western saw that's been overcorrected multiple directions. Maybe another consideration.
A college professor I had called me a hippie for using a Japanese saw. He later gave me a set of Japanese chisels.
I started my cutting career in plumbing. Even then I hated the fact that everyone set their blades to cut on the push stroke. I found it much easier when I flipped the blade around and cut on the back stroke. I guess you now know what style saw I prefer....
Just got my first Japanese Ryoba saw for Christmas present and can't wait to try it. Paul Sellers knife wall really helped me with beginning sawing. Still got a long way to go to get it right but practice practice practice (by making things) was great advice I got from someone. Keep up the good work mate.
Paul Sellers is a wealth of woodworking knowledge. I started using the knife wall a couple of years ago and it has really helped me. Keep it up and you'll see the results.
Wood working was so ubiquitous in the past that it changed the shape of people. Europeans with the push planes and push saws developed wider shoulders and larger chest muscles. While other cultures relying on pull planes and saws have narrower shoulders, slight chest muscles and stronger upper back muscles.
I use both in my shop but tend to almost always reach for the Japanese version of whichever type I need. I like the thinner kerf and due to a genetic disorder, gripping the Japanese handles are a lot easier on my hands than Western handles. I use them along side my Western hand planes and have no issues with pulling a saw and then pushing a plane. It's actually made it easier when I feel the need to flip the plane around and pull it instead of push it (thank you Paul Sellers).
I've never seen a western style flush-cut saw. The fact that the blade needs to bend = needs to be thin = needs to be a pull saw. So I always chuckle when I see woodworkers use the western saw to cut close and then have to pare it with a chisel. I learned about flush-cut saws while working as a rough carpenter (house builder).
They do exist they are just not as comfortable with a crank handle.
I have a cheap japanese saw (similar to what you used as a demo on this video). The little plastic piece that secures the blade to the handle broke. It holds the blade on, but the blade won't stay straight to the handle if a reasonable amount of pressure is applied (like cutting hard wood). I discovered it works beautifully as a drywall saw. Not much dust, super straight cuts and a nice clean edge.
I'm old and traditionally trained, I grew up using all western style tools. Everything Japanese was loudly proclaimed junk. I gladly use both types of saws today as well as a couple Japanese planes. I've found the pull saws fantastic at cutting really difficult pieces with twisted grain, mine left nearly finish ready surfaces in hickory root stock that my freshly sharpened Disstons did not like. I switch back and forth depending on what I'm doing, haven't yet been happy with the results of my pull type bench hook design and my choice for dovetails depends on type of material. I get a lot more wander with the pull saws on short rips in softwood, seems to follow the growth rings, but excells in maple and oak. Far as I'm concerned they both have a place in my shop.
I bought a ryoba saw recently and its awesome. Works well for rips, cross cuts and even does great with flush cutting.
Excellent information. Thank you. I cut my first dove tails with a Japanese saw. I'm better with it now but at first I "wallered" out the kerf closest to me so my joint fit well on the inside but not outside. I got better as I practiced. When I wanted to hand cut finger joints for a small walnut box, I sharpened my father-in-law's old gen saw with a straight handle. Actually I think it might be just a hobby saw for very small wood and plastic parts. But I was able to control it well and it did a nice, tight job on these joints. Thanks again for the info, James.
I use both, started with Japanese saw from harbor freight. Have recently switched to Western saws but at the first sign of trouble I pull out the big ryoba even for the most delicate cuts because I can control it so well. I guide with finger and thumb with light strokes and can do about anything, so I guess that is the secret for me. I also grab the same saw to remove large tree limbs on a few occasions. I should have bought every one in stock, ten bucks , several years ago. Thanks.
Yes, it is hard to tell someone else, especially someone new to woodworking, which saw to use. I've had friends ask me which one they should get and my answer is they should come over to my shop and try using both to see what they like better. I personally use both and it is the project that dictates which one I should use. For small delicate work, I use the Japenese pull saw. The blade is very thin allowing the user to cut an already narrow piece of wood. For basic projects, I will use the western style backsaw to cut my dovetails. But again if it is a small box I am making the J.S. is more appropriate, for me.
The info about push vs pull controlling the cut is something I hadn't considered. It may help me as I struggle with achieving straight cuts. Thanks.
To be honest, I've always preferred the pull cut. It just feels much more natural to me. Cheers James👍
And that right there is just about the only valid argument, for either style.
Local hardware shop around here don't stock Japanese saws. I don't think our western style saws are quite so expensive either.
Having said that, the only saw I have that's not cross-cut is a hacksaw. I don't think they sell the other type here.
I find pruning saws to be my favourite. The cheap type go for as little as ZAR25 (about two dollars) but the better ones can cost as much as ZAR300
Bought a Ryoba recently…an eye opener. I found the thin blade buckles out easily on the push stroke…you must ensure you push accurately back through the kerf, on the plus side the blade self straightens on the cutting pull stroke.
I feel is like pulling a trailer (japanese style) vs pushing a trailer (western style, picture it like reverse gear).
I prefer the Japanese saws, I like that you can easily replace worn blades
Eyesight isn't good enough to sharpen back saws.
i like our tools because i am european but if you are japanese i certainly liked the japanese tools. EVERYTHING GOOD FOR YOUR CHANNEL WHICH IS VERY COOL, there is and it was with our tools that I learned how to work.
I've found I prefer western saws, but Japanese saws are great for fast cross cuts. In limited spaces (like removing panels or fittings), a sharp kataba with a pistol grip is much handier and easier to use.
For joinery, and for controlled rip cuts, however, I like western saws.
I've always used both, and honestly have no particular preference. I have far more concern for the final product that the tool I'm using to do it.
A point of interest:
"Japanese" style saw is a poor choice of wording as they are more correctly termed East Asian style saws. This style is found throughout what is commonly referred to as the Orient/Far East (China, Korea, Japan, Laos, Cambodia, etc.). The common trade names in North America are the Japanese names; however, when properly translated, the names merely reflect the general function (e.g. dozuki = back saw, riyoba = panel saw, etc.). Even the spelling of the names varies because the translation of the various Oriental alphabets to the Roman (Western European) alphabet is not exact.
Very true.
As a Korean who learnt in america that saws 'cut' when push stroke and my friends tought it was funny and didn't tell me. I needed this video 5 years ago.
I would just like to add that in the Asian style pull saws, when you are on the pushing stroke, careful not to push too hard cause you can snape the blade and injure yourself.
Also, why is everything East Asian Japanese in western countries? its weird...
The stuff you do is Awesome. In my shop I have mostly western style saws. I have one small flush cut saw that works on the pull stroke, but it is more "Japanese inspired" than Japanese. I carry the small pull saw with me in my truck. but not any of the old Disston's. I carry an assortment of (I know this is really going to get people who watch your channel worked up.) Power saws everyday. I dream of having a really cool hand tool shop, but day in and day out I use battery powered tools. I do very little of my work in my shop; almost all of the things I do are done on site, or in the parking lot almost on site.
I use both types and use them depending on what I'm doing or if I fancy using that type of saw at that time. I'm still relatively new to woodworking so still seeing what's going to work best for what job but for the cost of Japanese saw's it can't hurt to have a few in your arsenal.
Hi James, I enjoy using the Japanese crosscut saws, but I can no more use a Ryoba rip saw than fly to the moon. So as you suggested I have both western and Japanese.
I have been using Japanese style saws for years and several brands even harbor freight. All work well enough. I just recently acquired my first disston thumb hole saw 8ppi rip. I have used western saws as well especially since I learned how to sharpen them. But previously I only had a Stanley sharp tooth saw. At least until the teeth started breaking.
Anyway, I like both styles of saws. Sometimes you need to use one over the other for certain tasks. Great video.
I have several of each and I use both styles equally. I do lean more towards my pull saws for cutting joints, but more towards western saws for most of my other cutting needs.
The reasons why I first picked up a ryoba saw and a dozuki saw when I took my very first steps into the world of woodworking: They were available, decently priced and I have never seen used Western style saws around where I live, neither do I know anyone who could give me a lesson or two how to set and to sharpen them. The only way to learn that somewhat in the future will be to buy to cheap Western style saws on ebay, search on youtube for sharpening videos and figure it out myself.
Until then, I will learn to master my Japanese style saws to stay on the marking line and do exactly what I want them to do ;)
Japanese philosophy has them work low to the ground and to pull the work towards them in order to pull the energy in the Earth and the wood towards the woodworker.
Would you say that you use the Japanese saws from time to time to keep your skills... sharp?
That's ridiculous, I hope people don't pick their equipment based on bunk like that...
thank you James
I prefer western style saws. They are far easier to sharpen.
I have a collection of western saws from my grandfather... I did purchase a Japanese saw last year and I agree It is easier to use for someone who is learning. I have been learning how to makethewestern saws work though.i am happy with both, but when I am looking for a really fine cut I am going to pull out the Japanese saws. I really like the thinner cut.
I use both types, but find that if I am doing a lot of sawing that the Japanese Ryoba saw is better since I have an old elbow injury which my western panel saws aggravate. The Ryoba also allows for a two-handed grip if needed. However if I'm knocking out dovetails I still reach for my Veritas.
Good video. I do use both, but prefer the western saws.
It’s never been an an either/or issue with me. I’ve grown more comfortable with Western saws for some things and Japanese for others.
“Fite no more, but work ye as brothers”
Well you were fair --- ly biased but honest. As a Westerner, you were exposed to the American saws first and learned woodworking using one... But you gave the Eastern style a good review of its utility and reasons for preferences. I never developed the skill to use a Western saw. I watched my Dad bend several saw blades and never saw a straight line in any wood he cut so ... when I needed to do woodworking, I bought a circular saw and was content.
I have never used a sharp japanese saw but I do prefer western style saws because I'm used to it.
I've seen a japanese saw at my upcomming internship so I might try that one out to see if my opinion will change
Thanks for making an actualy good comparison video!
Arguing over a type of saw is the epitome of 1st world privilege. I've seen guys who'll make a masterpiece with a rusty garage sale saw, and guys who couldn't cut straight if their life depended on it with the nicest saw money can buy. Hone your craft, then get picky, but only in that order
I think you nailed it. well said.
@@darylhawes8804 that pun was first class. Bravo
I use Japanese saws but I'm looking to get a nice set of Western saws that I can sharpen myself. I don't like buying the new blades.
Japanese saws don't work on western benches (not very well...). Richard (The English woodworker) had a blog post where he stood on his bench and this was how he could do long, straight rip cuts.
One other thing: William Greaves / Thomas Flinn makes nice resharpable Gent's saws for around 15€. I have one for dovetailing or as a small tenon saw and I'm really happy with it. They have the straight handle, which I happen to like.
@James: and a nice informative video you did there!
I see what you saw. But when push comes to pull you saw, oh I see. By the way has any one ever tried to pull a circular saw. Great video James. I did not know about the control factor between pushing and pulling.
Lol nice. Thanks man!
I've been woodworking for about 4 years now, my first 2 years on Japanese saws because they were cheaper and the next on Western style saws once I could afford them. And I have to say I overwhelmingly prefer the western style saws now. I think for me the major factor is everything else I have is Western style. My workbench, benchhooks, my tools all use a certain methodology that feels more natural to the western style so using my western saws feels seamless and natural. My Japanese saws have dulled and I don't feel like burning money on new blades while sharpening my other saws is easy and fast. That being said the western tools are so much more expensive that the Japanese tools really filled that need when I didn't have much. I think it's like you said, use what works for you and don't worry too much about the other stuff until it's time to look for an upgrade. If you end up going full Japanese stuff then you may never switch because the tools have become an essential part of your woodworking flow.
I tried Japanese first too and now I'm all into British/US saws. I imagine the type of workbench matters a lot. I can't understand a waist height workbench with a Japanese saw. That's not even how they use it I guess....
A lot of good information here James.
Thanks!
So you are saying that the Disston back saw I just bought for $4 was a good deal? Haha
I have 6 old hand saws from 18" to 26" all told I've spent no more than $20 on and all are SPECTACULAR. Granted 2 have needed entirely new handles, 3 needed hammered straight and all have needed a LOT of scrubbing and sharpening but every one to the last has more than proven their worth 10x over
Great video, even though i thought i was well informed about the topic i learned a lot. Thanks. :)
Personally I find myself using western style saws for rough cuts usually, where i can lean into the stroke leading to a lot quicker cuts. Japanese saws like the Ryoba are great for flush cuts or long cuts following the grain of the wood (more of an issue with pinewood). The Dozuki comes out when the cut needs to be really narrow and precise like dovetails or cutting thin strips of wood where the little razor-sharp teeth allow for the least amount of ripouts.
I'll try using a fine cutting western style saw for dovetails on my next project. Let's see if my sawing-skill improved enough to make me consider my typical choice. :)
I have loved Japanese saws since I first used one. The difference was so apparent to me that I thought that it must be some new impovement in saws. I'm not sure why they appeal to me so much - maybe it's because it seems to take so much less effort. I don't do a lot of sawing of thick material though.
I use western saws, as I can get great quality old saws. Resharpend they are ready to go. As mentioned I love reclaiming old tools and reuse it for another 50 years. Keep a small footprint.
There is also whether you are controlling the cut on the cutting line, or even seeing the cutting line on the near vs far side. And are you working with the work piece face towards or away from you. The western saw will do its chipping out on the back side where as the Japanese saw would chip on the near side.
I have bifocal glasses that I normally wear - but not while woodworking, because of the distortion they introduce in my vision, which can mean what I think is a straight 90 degree cut ends up not being straight when I have finished it. Anyone else have this trouble?
There is one reason to say Japanese saws are more ergonomic. Due to their thickness, Japanese saws remove less material with every millimeter you go downwards, and thus less energy is required to cut the same thickness of material.
I get better hold on western handles but better work on Japanese. Has me considering making a slight modify.
You could pull a western style plane too, i've heard someone say that before... Maybe Rex Krueger? Maybe it was WBW? ah well
Yeah, I've seen rex krueger pull his plane on his shooting board before. And it really is doable in cases where you can't reach, I used it when flattening the workbench
Basic western wooden planes are especialy nice to pull
Paul Sellers shows how to do it and actually does fairly often in his videos.
Yup there are times that is very useful.
I've never used a Japanese style saw but have often wondered if it would be easier to use with a Western style handle? Holding onto a "*cylinder" and pulling on it seems it would be more difficult than pushing a Western style saw. Of course the height of the work bench might come into play, Maybe Japanese style saw are more suited to very low work benches. As I said, I've never used one.
* Yes, I know the handles are wrapped to give a better grip. But pulling a saw at waist height or higher seems more difficult than pushing at that same height.
Question: Can a disposable japanese saw blade be repurposed into a card scraper?
Thanks
Yes. It would be a thin and flexible one but some like that.
I actually did that with my first Ryoba (Harbor Freight $10). More than three years in almost half the teeth had come off and I cut it up and made some very flexible and effective detail card scrapers.
I prefer Japanese for cheese because of the narrower kerf.
I think people misunderstand Japanese saws and how to use them. With a western saw you put the board vertical and cut downwards into it, steering it with the same hand you’re pushing with. With the Japanese saw you want to put the board horizontal and cut forwards into it, pulling with the handle below the board and steering by just putting your thumb on the side of the blade, above the board, to give it a little nudge.
I did not wish to walk the path of the ninja. But when my parents disappeared, I looked towards the East and ate some miso soup and said screw it.
I've never seen a Japanese saw before. I'm not sure what is meant by pull vs push being the material removing step since I think every saw I've used has has removed material on both strokes. Is it a matter quantity? Ie it'll remove more material on this stroke vs the other
Yes, it is a matter of efficiency. On the Japanese saw the teeth are pointing back at you. Whereas on western saw the teeth are pointing away from you. Now on the cross cut side they tend to be pointing straight down so they are equal in both strokes but with rip cutting teeth it is far more apparent.
The fact that you can get a hand forged japanese saw for 100$ is really nice, but they they are not anywhere near the same. Sharpening is whatever, you can learn it, but rip cutting is a problem. I like them and use them for joinery and small panel saw work, they are also kind of better at croscuting. However you simply will not even be able to rip something vertical in a normal vice, it's not even worth trying because you are going against the grain and the only way to make this smooth with such an aggressive tooth is to have at least 10+ teeth engaged in the cut and that's an angle that just doesn't work in a face vise, and that many teeth in the cut does tend to make the cut slower, which is nice for ripping thin small panels to final dimensions, but a bit of a slow hassle four rough rip cuts.
You can't get a clean polished cut with a western saw, western saw cuts leave a ragged cut face that needs cleaning/sanding because of the way the teeth hack through the wood fibres. The Japanese saw cleanly cuts the wood fibres
It sounds like the western saw you're using has a bit too much set in the teeth. If they are set correctly you can get a glass smooth surface off of either saw.
@@WoodByWrightHowTo Was about to answer the same. It only depends on the amount of set, not the origin.
They're both correct. Get a saw setter and look up how to reset the teeth to fix that issue and probably resharpen the teeth. Do it properly and you'll get a clean cut with either style saw.
I was first exposed to Japanese planes and saws about 35 years ago from a luthier from New York city. One thing I learned from him is Japanese tools are designed the way they are because the method of work in Japan is different than a Western woodworker. His claim is Japanese woodworkers user lower benches and sit on the floor while using planes and saws. The CZcams video "Amazing Japanese woodworking skills" shows an example. The long handles in saws and the pull of planes work better in the ergonomics than do western tools where the woodworker pushes the tool.
For myself, I find that sitting, on a 5 gallon bucket with a padded seat my wife made, at my western style bench to saw dovetails works well. I lay the wood flat on the bench to cut the tails and pins, with the board just about a foot below eye level. I hold the saw vertically. The long handle and vertical blade make it easier for me to cut the pin and tail. Ditto for making tenons. And, as I age, I find sitting more comfortable for my lower back than leaning over a bench.
Right on. it's a completely different style of woodworking. That's one of the reasons why I don't do too much with Japanese tools as I would really like to do it correctly and have the whole Japanese bench and set up.
For me a Japanese saw fit my hands easy to work with 😊 .
the best saw to use is the one that matches the workspace you use it in. You are using a sitting workbench, or a planing beem, and holding the work with your foot; using a western saw will suuuuuuck. If you are using a bench hook on a rubo style workbench, or a bench hook, using a japanese saw may be more difficult.
Chainsaw, every time!
Now that's the way to do it.
Recently you issued a video reminding us how to hold the handle of a saw, to get the "balance" right. That was a Western saw. I notice in this video, the Japanese saws have handles that look to me like handles from wood-turning chisels - long and cylindrical. So HOW to we "balance" the saw using those type of handles ?
You valence it the same way between the thumb pad and resting finger. You just have a thghter grip with it.
@@WoodByWrightHowTo Oh thank you for the explanation - I'll better buy one !
Great overview! Someday, can you please post a video demonstrating how to perform long rip cuts, re-sawing and deep cross cutting with a ryoba? I'm just getting started, am using a ryoba and find myself working my way down the the line to create a kerf to guide the saw before taking out the center. Is that a beginner handicap I've fallen into to compensate for not being able to control/turn the saw easily? The degree of error on a miss start is magnified on long pieces. Is proper technique to start on the far side or near side of the board with a Ryoba? Is posture different than you demonstrate with western saws? I find myself wanting to have the handle below the board on long rip cuts, even though that makes no sense.
Jonathan Katz Moses did a video on cutting with a ryoba, very good viewing
The only real disadvantage to the Japanese saw is probably their fragility. Bending a tooth is easy! And I see no reason for a saw to produce a very clean surface, I use a shooting board or free hand with a plane.
I like japanes saws, easy to ergo. learn from and cost. We some times ferget that cost is a factor in what we do.
Are there any other styles of saws?
Yes bow saws, frame saws, gent saws and a few other odd things.
I prefer western saws because I'm on the western side of Japan. If i were on the eastern side of west Japan i would have to go with a Japanese saw..... no I really have a preference for the western saw because that's all i have. And i prefer to be able to cut wood to work wood. Just cant prefer something I don't have. 😉
Japanese saws dont work with my bench soo
That ryoba has seen better days haha
Can you update the link to your flush cut saw please? It currently links to a replacement ryoba blade.
thanks for letting me know. here is a similar one that I think I would get now. amzn.to/3Gv6Dog
@@WoodByWrightHowTo you're welcome. Are you sponsored or incentivised by Suizan in any way? How is the performance and the quality of the saw holding up after these years? TX
They sent me one saw around 6 years ago. But no sponsorships and the rest I have purchased myself. I have a couple from other companies. but I like the balance Suizan has. they are not the best saws on the market and they are not the cheapest. they are just a good general bang for the buck.
@@WoodByWrightHowTo fair enough. Can you tell me what the other brand Japanese saws you have please? I'm trying to see if Gyokucho and ZSaw are worth the premium for example. There are some others of course, that could be contenders too.
All of that and no stupid dad joke....I'm bummed now. I use both types of saws and frankly, I really don't see much difference either.
Most "cheap" Japanese saws have hardened teeth which means you basically need diamond files to sharpen them. The money typically works out daily close in the end after buying diamond files.
Try one of the handmade Japanese saws instead of the mass manufactured variety and get back to me. It's a very different experience and you have to know proper technique to not break the teeth. Downside is you need to send fine tools like that back to Japan for professional resharpening and the waiting list is something else.
There are a lot of fun for sure.
Why flip flop like that? Even if we grant that both western and japanese saws work as good, the japanese being cheaper makes it undeniably superior. But the japanese saws are superior, regardless of price: finer cut, easily replaceable blades, tool guidance and flexibility for those tricky cuts.
No contest.
First.
Woot woot, nice work. I really need to come up with a prize for that.
Very non committal
Western saws are the best
Even in the comparison demo he struggles with the push saw. Case closed. Japan wins here. 🙏