Why didn't Sauron Ally with or recruit the Balrog | The Lord of the Rings | Middle Earth
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- čas přidán 28. 06. 2024
- Why didn't Sauron ally with or recruit the Balrog, another great power of Middle Earth? Did Sauron possess the power to subjugate the Balrog? Or did Sauron need to form an alliance with the Balrog to win the War of the Ring and become once again the Lord of the Rings?
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00:00 Intro
00:40 Roots
03:20 Was Sauron aware of the Balrog
04:48 Could Sauron dominate the Balrog
05:55 Could Sauron ally himself with the Balrog?
07:14 Was Sauron need the Balrog?
11:38 A Personal Message - Zábava
I have read that the Balrogs only took orders from Melkor/Morgoth in person, and that a Balrog probably being a former maia of Aulë, would see itself as Saurons equal, since Sauron also was a former maia of Aulë. Also the Balrog must know that Glorfindel who slew Gothmog lord of the balrogs still lived in Rivendell.The Balrog of Moria/Durins bane knew he was powerful, but he also knew that he could be killed.
I believe Balrogs did not originate as being maiars belonging to any of the Valar of valinor, rather they originated as Maiar who existed outside of the "world" during the music of creation, who like the Valar partook in the music. When Melkor sowed his own discord in Eru's music, those Maiar joined with Melkor. Meaning, they were Melkor's very own Maiar.
Balrogs did not fear any elf, they would throw themselves at the spider of the void herself, a being greater than even Melkor himself. if you think they would shy away from some elf you're severely underestimating them.
As an added note, being Melkors own personal maiar, they had no allegiances to any being other than Melkor himself. Durins bane were awaiting his masters return, it was only stirred into action because a powerful foe had invaded its resting place. Sauron did not have the authority to command the Balrogs if Melkor were not around. They would not be disposed to follow Saurons plans if those plans did not originate with their master. Durins bane would not bother to interfere with Sauron either way, it would be content to remain hidden at the roots of the world until the end times, it was not a rival, ally, subject or adversery to Sauron, but a neutral party.
Actually, that's a common misconception. The Balrog is indeed a formidable foe, but it's not a Maia. It's a type of ancient spirit known as a Maiar. Sauron, on the other hand, is a Maia. And while the Balrog is powerful, it's generally considered that Sauron, especially with the One Ring, holds a higher level of power and influence in Middle-earth.
@@ewarquirocarpio9061 I thought Maiar is the plural of Maia?
Why must the Balrog know about Glorfindel?
@@silverchairsg correct. Some folks need to read the Silmarillion, then they won't be incorrect
I like that Gandalf mentioned the possibility of the dragon teaming up with Sauron.
The balrogs probably werent huge fans of Sauron. They followed Melkor even before the ainulindale, but Sauron only defected at the end of the years of the lamps, which lasted 50% of the entire history of Arda. He immediately took rank over them becoming Morgoths Lieutenant.
good point
good point
Sauron owed them money as well. After a few hundred years, the Balrogs were like, "eff this guy."
Lamps? Those are trees of light.
@@RavenHart-sx8xs They were trees of light until Ungoliant consumed them with the help of Melkor, then what remained of them was fashioned into the "Lamps". Also, at least according to the encyclopedia of arda, the poster is incorrect in the duration of Sauron's allegiance, he was working for Melkor in one form or another even before the darkening of the Valar and the start of the first age, which predates the creation of the Balrogs and dragons IIRC.
It seems clear that Sauron wanted to RULE Middle Earth not destroy it, while its very likely that the Balrog would want to DESTROY the very lands and people that Sauron seeks to rule. And the Balrog being of immense, if not equal power, may not have been something that Sauron was willing to challange. Same holds true with Smaug and Shlob, those to lesser extent.
Agreed.
Sauron wants to conquer and rule everything, but the Balrog comes across as the sort of creature that a) Would just want to destroy everything in sight indiscriminately, and b) Is almost completely uncontrollable. It's not an attack dog that can be tamed, it's more like a rabid bear.
haha Shlob
@@Adamguy2003The balrogs could be tamed by Morgoth, the one who corrupted them. But not by Sauron, especially not without the One Ring.
I don't believe that he fully controlled Saruman either. Saruman simply saw no victory against Sauron. But he would have rebelled (and failed) if he ever got ahold of the Ring himself. He was in it for himself, Durin's Bane even more so. But none of them would have dared to rebel against Morgoth.
@@doubleog6149I actually am guilty of finding this hilarious as well 😅
Haha had to laugh when I've read shlob.
When I first read the part, I loved that the evil world is also multifaceted and dynamic. I felt that added so much depth and reality to the world Tolkien created.
It's amazing how someone wrote a bunch of fantasy books about stuff that is not real, yet it's so fun to go deep on it
Sauron might not want a situation like what happened between Ungoliant and Morgoth to happen again.
@ClumzorZ Excellent point
That or they were allied and working together until he was killed by Mithrandir.
I guess he learned a lot from his old boss 😅
"meh", not really relevant allegory but i get the idea. A duo who dispute and kill each other (or more likely Sauron fearing the Balrog could rebel)
@@Toto-95not sure you know the meaning of allegory my guy.😂
Well it's basically lawful evil versus chaotic evil. Aligned in one way but totally incompatible in another.
Both are evil and all evil is chaotic as only good, the order set out by God/Eru is ordered
I can see what you’re saying, but this isn’t Dungeons and Dragons or some other typical fantasy. In Tolkien’s world, I believe good and evil are much more black and white and don’t fall so much into the lawful, neutral, chaotic, etc tropes. Identifying characters as lawful evil or chaotic evil is a fine way to classify things from a reader’s point of view, but I don’t think it applies so much to Tolkien’s world from an in-universe perspective.
@@Fellow_Followerso what you're saying is that the readers are practically... an innie!
Sauron was already terrified that Saruman might claim the ring for his own. And Saruman even in his treachery, was limited as an Istari. The Balrog was a fully-powered Maia though. And had given itself to darkness for even more power. So it's natural that the last thing Sauron wanted was the Balrog getting any ideas of claiming the ring for its own.
gandalf was also an istari and considered less powerful than saruman at the time but managed to slay the balrog tho.
@@Dunkelelf3 A Barlog that managed to kill Gandalf is still pretty powerful though. A shadowflame powered Maia that was not morally or physically limited in any way. It could still harness and use the full power of the ring on top of its own. Perhaps even in ways that even Sauron could not. It might be less powerful than a ring-bearing Gandalf or ring-bearing Saruman. But it probably still would overpower a half-powered ringless Sauron. Or at least directly challenge him
@@dimitris470 also Gandalf was wielding Narya, yet Durins Bane was able to match him in combat.
Don't forget Glamdring!
@@Dunkelelf3isn’t Gandalf more powerful than both Saruman and Sauron but a lot more humble in his abilities etc. Also Maiar and Istari are one and the same.
The ultimate doomsday scenario for late Third Age Middle Earth would have been if Durin's Bane had overcome Gandalf, slain the whole Fellowship, and taken the One Ring. At that point, I think the situation for all factions in the War of the Ring would have been so dire that the Free Peoples and Sauron would have had to form a VERY uneasy and temporary alliance just to stop the Ring-enhanced Balrog...
But would a balrog even desire the ring? 6:55 they seem to me as well to just be pure evil and mindless brawlers.
Seeng Durin's Bane slaughter everyone frodo panicked and puts the ring on only to still be seen and struck down all the while Sauron instantly finds him. After killing everyone the balrog goes back to take a nap and Sauron sends his smallest and fastest orc to retrieve the ring.
A “what if” episode. Intriguing to think about the possibilities.
Nope Balrog were of lesser God/Angel status and same form of being as Gandalf and Sauron. And it was the Balrog's counter spell the broke Gandalf's door bar. So it very smart. And certainly would want to use the Ring to make it self the ruler of Middle Earth not Sauron. @@NexusGameEnt
@@milferdjones2573 magic in Tolkien's universe doesn't require a high cognition as it's emanated through strength of words and spirit. The only balrog I can imagine to have the ambition of a darklord would've been Gothmog since he was their leader and held a high position similar to Sauron. Durin's Bane didn't establish a seat of power in Moria when he fled there he just killed everyone when he woke up this is why I believe the ring would be ignored the guy only had a desire to sleep and not be disturbed by Eru's children. He only left the goblins in khazadum be because they too descend from his master Morgoth
I mean, we assume he didn't have a plan. But do we know that?
The key point here I think is the devastating loss of the One Ring and the resultant almost fatal loss of "self" (let's call it "power") for Sauron. Sauron was indeed one of the most "powerful" Maia, and as Marion he was considered most admirable before his seduction by Melkor. Following his corruption and fall, his defeats and his shames that culminated with the loss of the One Ring and the greater part of his own power, I suspect he would quite reasonably fear the Balrog and be content to "let sleeping dogs lie"...
Sauron in the First Age was the equal to Melian. It is stated, however, that the Balrogs were the greater in specific purposes, warfare and combat especially.
Gothmog is specifically mentioned to be the most powerful of Balrogs in that fashion.
Sauron was most likely the most powerful of the Maiar, but I assume like the Valar, each had their power in certain "specialties". One might be more physically powerful, another's strength may be in controlling weather, animals or other aspects of nature. As previously mentioned, Balrog's were Melchor's shock troops and army leaders, so they were very powerful physically. Sauron's power was in influence and domination, he was likely weaker in combat terms than Durin's Bane.
Sauron may not have known which Balrog Durin's Bane was and may also have been concerned that it may have been able to challenge his authority as Melchor's "heir".
Also, given how Sauron had invested so much of his power in the ring, and had lost more after being "killed" by Isildur, even if he was originally stronger, he may have actually been weaker than the Balrog at the time if the war of the ring. At least until he had gathered his strength back. And maybe not even until he regained the one ring.
i'm sure it was a typo but Sauron's original name was Mairon...not Marion.
Or in this case, "sleeping 'rogs".
Sauron couldn't control the Balrog, not reliably, and couldn't risk losing control of his minions during dfforts to dominate the Balrog. Since he couldn't guarantee dominating it, a creature nearly at an equal level of raw power, he left the Balrog to sow it's own chaos. There's no way Sauron would trust a voluntary alliance with the Balrog, and I believe he feared lest the Balrog usurp his Ring before he could find it and secure possession.
I doubt that they were equal or almost equal. Otherwise, Gandalf himself could have just taken on Sauron, since he defeated the Balrog.
@@gojewla Except that it's apples and oranges. One could make the argument the Balrog is a more powerful martial threat than Sauron. But Sauron isn't playing by those rules. He never takes to the field of battle except as a last resort. Sauron's way is the way of water rather than of fire, of slow erosion, of corruption.
Gandalf knows this. It's why the Istari were sent to Middle-Earth rather than a host from Arda as was done with Morgoth; because Sauron can't be defeated by force of arms. Any such "defeat" is temporary as Sauron's spirit lives on through his Ring to eventually reform itself.
Gandalf knows that to fight Sauron is to lose; even if he was capable of "defeating" him in a duel based on his success against the Balrog. Sauron can only be defeated through misdirection, subterfuge, and his own overbearing arrogance leveraged against him (i.e. refusing to accept that anyone could ever bring themselves to destroy the Ring in an effort to destroy him).
The Balrog is powerful within its domain; direct martial combat. Quite possibly more powerful than Sauron. But Sauron is more powerful within his domain - corruption, manipulation, patience, and long-term strategy - than the Balrog. And, given that time is on Sauron's side along with the fact he can't be destroyed while the Ring exists, Sauron always wins in the end; even in the face of a superior martial foe.
So it _could_ be argued the Balrog is equal or even more "powerful" than Sauron; but only if one is using a very primitive definition of power as _"one who can hit harder with a flaming sword"_ versus _"an immortal who can manipulate the fortunes of entire civilizations across millennia to achieve long-term goals."_
I am struck by the fact that the Watcher in the Water slammed the gates of Moria, caused a cave-in and ripped out the trees to lock the Company inside. Water is also opposite of fire, the nature of the Balrog. Maybe the Watcher was originally placed to keep the Balrog inside Moria. Galadriel is not far away on the other side. It looks like the Balrog was pretty well contained.
It’s a nameless thing that like climbed up the tunnels made by the dwarves from like super deep dark in u defraud pools, creatures like it also have lived down there since the creation of middle earth
Would Galadriel fair well against the Balrog? Besides her ring she is an above average elf who is most likely a lot less powerful than Gandalf who is known to be as powerful as Sauron without the ring.
@@mitchjames9350dude, she killed an ice troll in less than 10 seconds lmao
@dandan4092 that was only in a fanfic
@@dandan4092 in what rings of power the made up garbage from Amazon.
If we look at the source material we can see that Tolkien went on and about how the Maia are powerful spirits with different amount of power and how their power changes with their form. Tarindor (Sarumans old moniker) for example was so strong that he was chosen - together with Melian and the other guardians - to keep the elves save from Melkor (the strongest of all the Ainur). Later on he had not as much power because he was clothed in a specific disguise. Sauron lost his form many times - once due to Huán and Luthien, then later due to Numenór and then due to Gil-galad, Elendil and Isildur. The Balrog in Moria was one of the few who survived all the battles that killed most of its kind in Beleriand and hid himself. Not from Sauron though, who also was thinking about going back to the Valar. Remember that he went to Eonwe and asked him to be forgiven and be taken back into Aules service, but Eonwe told him he couldnt accept him and that only the Valar could do that. Sauron was also disgraced by his defeat at Tol Sirion and we never hear from him again in the wars in Beleriand thereafter, so its save to assume that he lost his high position at Morgoths court, while the Balrogs always stayed the "bodyguards" and "shock-troops" of the dark tower and - as such - high in favor. Also Sauron has no leverage for the Balrog. It has no loyalty to him or his plans. The balog was just a neutral party that waited until Morgoth came back or he would hear the call of Morgoth again.
Sauron was able to dominate other Maia as we see with Saruman, who - although weakened and not able to use his full power - fell partly under his spell. The Balrog is fully empowered and i reckon Sauron knew that the Balrog was in Moria. He also knew of Smaug in the Lonely Mountain and kept him there without any contact. So why wouldnt Sauron take the chance to unleash the Balrog? He sure would love to see him coming down on Rivendell or Lothlorien and weaken the elvish domains there, but he wasnt able to control him properly. And Sauron - in essence - always was a being of what? Order. Control. Like most of Aules creatures he loved to create, control and order things and that is what he did. He was not Morgoth with his idea to destroy what he could not have. He wanted to control and order it so that it all went orderly under his tutelage and eyes. The Balrog in essence was a lap dog for Morgoth but not for Sauron. So i think Sauron was happy that the Balrog sat inside Moria and kept to himself.
The biggest problem for Sauron IMHO is also from the source material. Sauron, the balrogs, and the dragons were all roughly equals under morgoth and came from the same status before they were corrupted,. They're equally powerful in different ways (besides smaug, he's the youngest, smallest, and weakest of the dragons) and owe no allegiance to each other. Sauron can't control or coerce either of them when he can barely even manifest himself as a floating fireball on a stick without the ring, the best move he could make was leaving them where they sat. They kept two dwarven nations from rebuilding, and their presence attracted plenty of orks, wargs, trolls, and other beasts that would cause problems for the neighbouring elves and humans.
tldr: he could kill two sticks with one bird by leaving them alone
What conversation between the Balrog and Sauron would boil down to…
Sauron: “Hey buddy, remember me?”
Balrog: *confused* Mairon, is that you?”
Sauron: “Yep. Long time no see. Ya look great, how are you?”
Balrog: “I’m fine old friend. I should be the one asking that.
Sauron: *confused* “Come again?”
Balrog: “What, are you not use it mirrors anymore? You look terrible, your aura is smaller and you feel weak in power.” *genuine concern* “What happened to you? Your face, your hair, your hand?”
Sauron: “It’s a long story, but to summarize; I made ring to enhance my power and even bound my soul to it but lost it and “died” about 3,000 years ago but I’m better now.”
Balrog: “You bound yourself to a ring? Gothmog and Boldog were right, you truly *are* an idiot.”
Sauron: *desperately trying to get to the point out of impatience* “Whatever, I stayed up the old empire in Mordor. You in or out?”
Balrog: “Are Lord Melkor, Cpt. Gothmog, Kosmot, or even the pale Balrog around?”
Sauron:”…N…no.”
Balrog: “Then get lost ya ember haired pretty boy. And leave me in peace.”
Sauron: *utterly done* “You dare speak to me in such a manner? Dare disobey me!? Listen well, you oversized…”
Balrog ascends to true high, form and power:*cuts him off* “No *YOU* listen to *ME,* you deformed usurping weasel!” “I DON’T take orders from YOU! I only obey Melkor, Gothmog, or my Balrog kin! And *they* are all gone. Get off my lawn, and don’t come back.
Sauron powering up: *stern yet raspy voice* “You DON’T want to do this.”
Balrog: “Don’t bother, Mairon. We both know what happened the last time you fought a Balrog in single combat. And you were *much* stronger back then. Go home and leave me be In my home.”
The Balrog was drawn only too Morgoth, a Valar, not to Sauron, its equal. The Balrog also had other policies and goals, probably content with ruling only Moria.
Now run this alt-history: Gollum tries to hide in Moria. He loses the ring to Durin's Bane.
Durin's Bane sulking over the ring because his fingers are too fat to put it on
@@SergeiBash Lol, but the ring varied in size, fit for a hobbit or human.
The absolute power of the armies that Morgoth could field was just immense. He leisurely sent balrogs and dragons to accompany armies of hundreds of thousands of orcs. Once, he even sent Balrogs on top of dragons...
Sauron never had even a fraction of that power. Then again, he didn't have to fight against the still powerful dwarven empires, the still prominent elves of middle earth, the noldor and even the Valar themselves.
could only be defeated by the host of valinor, the strongest tangible force in creation.
We don't know much about the nature of balrogs. They were once Maiar, yes, but it seems that Melkor changed them into these fire demons to serve his purposes. It's possible that they were more like animals than sentients, as seen in the way the balrog that eventually came to Moria and hid for such long ages after it was logically necessary. We get little sense that it has much of what we would call consciousness or awareness, let alone further territorial ambition. The Dwarves forced it into action, but once it had Moria under its sway, it just sat there. Without Melkor driving it, it had only an animal-like satisfaction in staying put in its den. It doesn't plan, it doesn't speak, it shows few signs of being a thinking as opposed to instinctual creature. So it's possible that Sauron couldn't make an alliance with a balrog. At best, as you suggest, it was like Shelob, useful to him where it was (assuming he was even aware of it).
Always thought they subsumed themselves into the world, so to speak, became part of the physical world. Like elves choosing to stay and adopting mortality, it's a big choice. Their nature changed.
They were sentient, if not ciivilized. They led armies, they "boasted" of kills.
gothmog was morgoth's general, the other balrogs morgoth's captains, sauron morgoth's lieutenant. either might have been able to dominate smaug, a considerably lesser dragon than glaurung or ancalagon the black were, or maybe not. dragons were morgoth's pet weapons project, after all.
I think your interpretation is completely wrong. I don't know Tolkien's lore deeply but from what I know, Balrogs are sentient and intelligent. In the books, it's said that they can talk, negotiate terms, lead armies etc. Also in the book, Durins Bane not only fought with Gandalf physically, but also using magic. He casted counter spells which nearly broke Gandalf.
@@anshadedavana You may be right, but I can't think of an occasion where they spoke, at least in anything canonical (i.e. published in Tolkien's lifetime). So much of what we think we know with Tolkien is just provisional, what he's thinking at the moment, and he could always change his mind. For instance, in the Book of Lost Tales there are many Balrogs attacking Gondolin, but in later writing he said there were probably no more than three Balrogs ever. Even the "fact" that they are Maiar, though widely accepted, isn't in any of the canonical books.
Gotta say, since I first stumbled upon your videos, I have thoroughly enjoyed each and every one. Thank you for your time and efforts
Why thank you! I really appreciate it 🙏
It probably says something that Gandalf felt Smaug needed to be taken out before the War of the Ring started, but with Durin's Bane he was content to just get the Fellowship away from it (before he also fell and had to commit to finishing the fight, anyway). There was a very real concern that Sauron could have recruited Smaug, but Gandalf doesn't seem to feel the same about the balrog stalking Moria's ruins. I suspect it's a case of Sauron likely being unable to control a balrog, a fellow Maia, especially in his current weakened state. And even without it Sauron had this war in the bag, so no need to take a risk by working with a being with the power to potentially usurp him.
The reason for this was because the Balrogs were, and arguably rightfully so, afraid that the Valar would show back up to finish what they started when they marched on Morgoth and sunk Beleriand beneath the ocean in so doing. The Silmarillion makes it pretty clear this was the reason they hid in the deepest, most hidden and inhospitable places in the world. If you are willing to go that far to survive, then it makes sense that the Balrog would prioritize drawing as little attention as possible.
It's likely that Sauron could have and even might have offered an alliance and was just flat out refused, as the Balrog were still fearful of the Valar. If it wasn't, it didn't really have a reason to remain in Moria, and the others wouldn't have a reason to remain hidden either. That is, of course, if Sauron even knew the Balrog was in Moria, which is never truly confirmed or not.
It's not clear to me what Gandalf knew about Durin's Bane. He knew something was there, but did he know that it was a Balrog? The text in LOTR suggests that it was a nasty surprise to him.
I see that both Sauron and Durin's Bane were both Maiar and probably saw each other as equals more than Sauron seeing him as someone to dominate. Plus, in order for Sauron to influence Durin's Bane, he needed the one ring to do so since he wasn't at his full power and Durin's Bane was.
Which shows how badass Gandalf was, taking this beast out single handed.
Hell yeah man. I rewatched the Two Towers and revisited the part where he talks about his battle with the Balrog my mind blew cause I understood what he was talking about years later. Love these movies. Need to read the other books.
Glorfindel would like to have a little interjection here: he is the OG "slew a Balrog, came back to Middle-Earth", and his compatriot Ecthelion even slew the chief of all Balrogs - Gothmog. You don't need to be a concealed Maia to do it.
actually he didnt slay it alone, whats more when they fell deep at one point gandalf says they tried to work together to get back out
To be fair, the Balrog killed Gandalf too. They killed each other.
He had some help from Narya.
A very thoughtful insight into an intriguing topic. I agree with every aspect of your commentary!!
Great video, thank you
Fantastic question and video! Exemplary content! Thank you!
i've seen a couple of your videos recently and thoroughly enjoy the depth and detail they go in to. i doubt that an AI would be able to provide the sound reasoning that you do. i look forward to checking out more of your work!
It's so obviously an AI generated script, voice, and all the art, too. Within the first minute it says that "...the valinor finally resolved to confront the dark force of melkor...". Actually, they are called "the Valar", and Valinor is the land in which they live.
Durin's Bane and Sauron would have known each other right? They both served Morgoth during his time. So these two probably shared a beer at the bar after torturing and murdering elves every friday night when they were serving.
This feels like a ChatGPT response read by a text to speech program.
Great video!
Excellent video
Nice video dude!
Earned my subscribe, great insights!
Gandalf himself stated in the story "The Quest Of Erebor" that Sauron would have had the Balrog and Smaug ( "Imagine fire & sword in the North") as part of his strategy to defeat the Free Peoples of Middle Earth.
I like the videos! Keep up the good work!
Great video
Brilliant video
Budget not enough, they demanded too much and also came with extensive union restrictions, so Mordor opted to do everything in-house.
Why would the Balrog work under a Maia that abandoned Melkor and hide during the latter years of the First Age and didn't help during the War of Wrath. Sauron likely didn't want the Balrog know that he instilled a portion of his power in a ring that he lost and was afraid the Barlog would try to seize the ring for himself.
I would also surmise that some of the goblins of Moria were watching for the ring bearer but kept the Barlog uninformed about it since the goblins waited until the Fellowship had spent days moving through Moria and were only a few hours from the East Gate before attacking. No way they didnt keep watch throughout Moria. Once the Balrog might have been alerted by the noise in the Throne room they attacked early to try to capture the ring and flee to the East Gate with it. Highly speculative but it explains the goblins being seemingly oblivious that they were there for days.
where are you getting this tale of sauron's betrayal and desertion of morgoth from? and did not the balrog also flee to hide at the roots of a mountain?
@@thehellyousay "where are you getting this tale " LMAO Condescend much?
that's a really good theory!
@@thehellyousay Silmarillion. Sauron was Morgoth's 2nd in command.
Sauron captured and tortured Beren. Galadriel's brother, Finrod sacrificed himself to save Beren in the dungeon. When Lúthien came with Huan the hound to saved Beren, Huan defeated Sauron's minions and then shapeshifting Sauron himself.
Sauron fled and hid until the 2nd Age. He did not return to his master, Morgoth to assist him and the Balrogs nor did he help during the War of Wrath. The Balrog fled presumably during the War of Wrath when he knew that Morgoth lost hiding in the mountains.
The Balrog likely would not help someone who he worked under who then fled and hid from the boss, Morgoth, and didn't help when the Valar's forces arrived for the War of Wrath.
The Balrog would be very interested in combining his power with the part of Sauron's power instilled in the One Ring.
Sauron saw the Balrog's potential as a great rival instead of ally even if Sauron willingly allied himself with lesser maiar like Saruman.
I agree with the others, Sauron didn't believe that he could control the Balrog. In essence he would have to convince him and therefore seem to be (and is) his equal. And the Balrog isn't dumb he knew Sauron was an equal of him so eventually he would have to take out Sauron to rule.
balrogs were unthinking brutes without higher thinking
nah they were smart. but they didnt want to rule, they only eant to serve morgoth and morgoth alone
@@nomercyinc6783 you can have your own headcanon but there's plenty of evidence to the contrary and non to your affirmative. also come on, we both know your knowledge begins at fellowship and ends at youtube, why you commenting like a middleschool kid on college lectures.
@@nomercyinc6783 Nah dude, in the first and second ages they led armies of orks, trolls, dragons, and other beasts as morgoth's leutenants. They were the ones who smashed the old dwarven empires into dust before sauron ever turned to corruption.
Wasn't the Balrog a "Balrog of Morgoth" and Sauron was also a servant of Morgoth. So there is no reason to assume these two servants would team up. Once Morgoth was banished to the Abyss, they pursued their own particular agenda's.
Sauron may have been using Durin's bane to take out Gandalf.
However, Illuvitar intervened and sent Gandalf back.
Seems the Balrog agenda was getting lots of sleep.
@@jeffreyp1855 Or you could argue' he had gone on to standby mode until the return of Morgoth, hiding in the roots of the Misty Mountain.
what's with the unnecessary apostrophes?
@@mojebi3804 Wrong forum you want spelling and grammer'.
I wonder why Sauron didn’t field armies of undead since he spent a bunch of years as the mysterious necromancer.
Nice job.
You do a really nice job of narrating
the Balrog was like: fuck off Sauron! I'm sleeping!
Good video sound reasoning
Are most AI voiced videos created by a chatGP type program, or is a transcript just read by someone that doesn’t want to be on camera? Genuinely asking because I tend to avoid AI voices videos but this seems well written with accurate content and insight.
Dunno, but it's annoying. I prefer actual people talking to me
liked and subscribed
Este es un muy buen canal sobre este tema.
Its pretty obvious to me. Balrogs don't likely make real good employees. My guess is they are prone to being insubordinate. The Balrog would probably think Sauron need to be its employee. And had the Balrog been able to get the one ring, then Sauron WOULD have been its employee, not the other way round.
They are known for their union strikes.
Yeah, the balrog's becoming corrupted wouldn't exactly be a big shift.
"I am dragon!" Lmfao
Love your tales dragon!
The Balrog and Shelob did play their parts. I think Eru Iluvatar played a much bigger role in the quest than anyone gives him credit for. As God of All Eru not only brought back Gandalf as the White, led the ring to Frodo, Frodo and Sam to Mordor, and Gollum to destroy the ring, but I think the run ins with The Balrog and Shelob were set up by Eru too. How else would Gandalf get his much needed power boost, and I don't see Frodo having the strength to cross into Mordor, so being unconscious and dragged across the border was probably best for his sanity.
But the balrog was made by morgoth not eru and Shelob is said to be the offspring of ungoliant who’s origins is unknown even to the valar and Gandalf came back as the white because Saruman abandoned his mission and got corrupted and the valar had chosen Gandalf has the leader of the Istari but Gandalf told them Saruman was the better choice and they accepted there’s only one instance in the whole history of arda were Eru himself intervened and it wasn’t against any of the dark lords it was against men that rebelled against him he was fine with what melkor and Sauron were doing to arda but got really pissed off at men for wanting immortality Eru is kinda of asshole.
@@imjennasidel6703Morgoth couldn't create, only corrupt. Eru indeed created the Maiar who later became balrogs. As the creator of everything he could just do a reboot and start over at any point, so yeah he was kinda indifferent for the most part. As we know, absolute power corrupts absolutely. Even God.
And the more he intervened the more it takes away from the agency of his creations. It ruins the stakes. It's enough that he reshaped Arda and brought Gandalf back.
@@imjennasidel6703 Specifically eru got pissed off at men for worshipping melkor with human sacrifices of people faithful to the elves and valar, waging war on the valar and elves and and probably most importantly, breaking the ban they had on the undying lands or, they tried to enter heaven while living. More specifically, trying to enter an elven heaven and defile it.
The ideology of a omniscient god isn't one of having your hand held all throughout life, it's one wherein the help you need will be rendered through physical form. You aren't here to experience eternal bliss, you're here to go through a journey and struggle.
I'm not religious nor do I have deep understanding of any religion but it just seems very obvious that the criticism of "if god exists why do children suffer" is well, a complete refusal to engage with any degree of empathy.
I am convinced that Tolkien never entertained the idea that the Balrog or Smaug would ever bother to align themselves with Sauron. It is similar to Tom Bombadil or the many other characters or powers in Middle Earth. It was probably Tolkien’s intention that these characters or figures be nothing more than additional powers that would remain unaligned, and be more caught up with their own self-interest. In Sauron’s weakness, without the One Ring, it’s likely the Balrog could have possibly surpassed Sauron, if it struck the Balrog’s fancy. When reading TLOTR and watching the movies I had always thought of the Balrog as a sort of entity of darkness who lacked agency, like a sort of berserker. Like I never got the idea that the Orcs and fowl creates of Moria _served_ the Balrog but sort of held the Balrog in a fearful reverence, like the Balrog was just as likely to kill them as command them to do anything. It seems like the Orcs of Moria sort of drove the Fellowship toward the Balrog then ran off, like the orcs were leaving an offering to their vengeful god.
I find your analysis persuasive.
The Balrog was hiding, in the end. I don't think it would have been as interested in making brothers in arms as much as it was in just finding the right place to chill and getting everyone else to get the hell out of his lawn while he's trying to sleep. Sauron would've known the Balrog would've been as welcoming to him as it was to everybody else.
I believe it was said in the books in the Moria part that there were larger orcs of a different breed in with the goblins that attacked the fellowship, I was always under the impression that those were Mordor orcs who were there as support and eyes for Sauron. I'm not 100% sure that that was what they were, but it makes sense.
I am enjoying your videos very much. Do you have one about the history of the Dwarves?
When Balrog fought with gandelf ,Balrogs eyes resembles ones possessed by sauron
Becuase as Gandalf said to Saruman……… Sauron does not share power.
Nice channel.
Sauron be like: don’t make me use this!
Great video, I very much enjoyed it. I've often wondered exactly this scenario you've put forth here. I agree with much of your interpretation of the relationship/character of both the Balrog and Sauron. I always considered Balrogs to be (as they're fallen Maiar) to be masters of sorcery and spells (in addition to being physically imposing and terrifying). After the fall of Morgoth in the First Age in the War of Wrath, I think that the Balrog (and any other potential ones, I always suspected that there must have been others), were more or less operating as "free agents" of evil, so to speak. Certainly Shelob did, much like Ungoliant in the First Age who was apparently never part of the Melkor hierarchy (where did *she* come from, btw?). Also I hadn't considered the loss of power Sauron experienced by *making* the One Ring as you indicated, great factor to consider! Great assessment, I really enjoyed it!
_"where did she come from, btw?"_
Ungoliant was the embodiment of the Primordial Void, the Eternal Darkness, and insatiable hunger.
One Maiar, a cousin to the Balrog before their fall but who did not herself fall, was described as a spirit of flame; burning brighter and hotter than even the Balrog. It's heavily implied she takes the form of a star in the physical realm. In like but opposite manner, there's some inference that Ungoliant is akin to a Black Hole in nature if not in form.
Whether she was created by Eru or simply has always been is unclear.
This is a good explanation as any for the reasons certain things happened
Another explanation why they didn't team up: Sauron knew that Gandalf would waste the Balrog, so he was like "not worth the effort"😆
Nice work dragon
ty 🙏🙏
I think the question is ,how powerful would the balrog have become if it had discovered gollum and the ring.
There's no reason to suggest Sauron even knew a Balrog still existed, they were all presumed destroyed in the Host of Valinor during the final battle of the War of the Wrath which destroyed Beleriand. As far as he or anyone else knew their physical forms were destroyed and their spirits dragged back to Valinor for the doom of Manwe.
Gandalf knew, So Sauron definitely knew too
Wow that an AI voice. Ai voice are getting pretty good didn't realize.
Great video for sure! You're right about the ai pronunciation, though.
That voice reminds me of the Fallout2 narrator. Very soothing, good AI.
It's good to clarify about the A.I usage, people just want to know that it was guided by a human mind. I liked the video and found the information thought provoking on the material, thank you.
"The enemy of my enemy is still my enemy".
Never forget that.
8:45 The high pass was not the same as the Caradhras, these were two different passes hundreds of miles apart. And only the northern one, the high pass, was under orc surveillance. (And even that is questionable, since most of the orcs from that pass came to the Battle of the Five Armies and were killed there.)
The high pass was watched by the Beornings, as Gimli (somewhat) or his father complained about. Mostly, they didn't want to pay the "stiff tolls" to pass that way but the pass was secure (until the war started).
I think Sauron wanted to control everyone - him as master, his "servants" more or less his slaves. The Balrog, being at least in the same order, would be, at best, an uneasy alliance. Also, the Balrog may have been pretty smart - he saw the War of Wrath and probably figured that if he kept a low profile he could run his little kingdom without the Valar coming by to take him out. The Balrog probably thought Sauron was stupid - if Sauron was successful and conquered Middle Earth then the Valar would probably come and "War of Wrath" him into the void.
Way I see it is Sauron only had use for creatures he could dominate through intimidation and fear, their fear being an assurance that they would not betray him or that they’d do their best to not disappoint him.
Sauron probably knew that a Balrog of Morgoth wouldn’t fear him and so subjugating it would be almost impossible.
Sauron making a deal and entering an alliance with the balrog could have been a possibility but maybe Sauron didn’t think it was worth the effort and in his weakened state maybe he thought the balrog wouldn’t think him worthy enough to ally with.
Sauron use Shelob as a guard, he would not be able to intimidate the Balrog and who would have seen itself as a power and so he adopted the same approach, let them have their lair, until he gets the ring.
I think it is more then that. Sauron was defeated once alreadyx and now did not even have the ring. The balrog could have been a real danger to rauson and a very unsure ally at best. From a risk/reward angle that makes no sense to even try.
Wrong, Sauron puts the goblins and black uruks under the control of the Balrog in Moria. Currently, in the book, Sauron uses the Balrog, but before he can reach his final goal, the balrog is killed by Gandalf the Gray, it is explained in the book...
Even if you are a spooky bot, loved the video:) thx for the upload
Sarumon was in communication with Sauron through the Palantir. Sarumon knew that Gandalf did not want to pass through the mountains and that he was well aware of the Balrog. It is possible there was an alliance with the Balrog, but it is likely it was just being used.
Taking the Balrog as an ally it’s very very beneficial for Sauron but that will escalate very quickly and no one can predict what the Valar will do learning that such alliance was formed
Can you please do a video on the Host of the Valar, that group of powerful warriors assembled in Valinor that sailed West to engage Morgoth and his dreaded forces during the War of Wrath. What was the host composed of, did Gandalf and Saruman fight in that war in their Maia forms? I hope this topic is of interest to your channel.
Where do you read all this, is that in the silmarillion? or is there other books?
Can anyone tell me what tool was used to make the images in this video?
Not every stupid question deserves a 10 minute essay on it.
If Sauron could even find a Balrog, would he trust a Balrog without first having his Ring?
I doubt it.
At the height of his power under Morgoth, I don't think he controlled the Balrogs, I'm pretty sure they fell soley under Gothmog, who probably acted as another of Morgoths lieutenants as well as the leader of all Balrogs.
After the fall of Morgoth, there were very few Balrogs that escaped, and they hid themselves in very deep dark places. They wouldn't be easy to find, and if found, would they even follow his commands?
Can I request that you put names of the artists somewhere in the video or description? Not only do they deserve credit, but it helps people find those artists if they happen to like the art enough. Thanks!
Great vid! I think Smaug certainly- Gandalf definitely thought so, and saw it as imperative that Smaug was defeated before the free peoples fought against Sauron... I'd argue that Durin's Bane was not beyond his infulence either. Yes the balrog is also a maiar, but Sauron, along with Gothmog (the leader of the balrogs) were the greatest among these to fall along with Morgoth. Sauron however was a master strategist, and patient. While Sauron was likely powerful enough to command the balrog, certainly so while in possesion of the Ring, it did not awaken before his battle against the last alliance (when he was outmatched by the free peoples), and it's awakening was still around 400 years after his victory over the kingdom of Arnor. The real question to ask is "Did Sauron need too?" before the Last Alliance, the dwarves of Khazad dum (Durin's kin) were allied with Men and elves. During the fall of Eregion the Dwarves of Moria attacked and wailaid Sauron, allowing the escape of Elrond and Celebrimbor (who Sauron intended to wrest the locations of the other rings of power from) denying him total victory. Afterwards Sauron led a massive assault on Moria but was unssuccessful. After his defeat at The last alliance and his successful Northern campaign against the Witch King, the dwarves awoke the balrog and Moria was lost. The goal of his projection of power northward in the 3rd age was made with the intent of weakening and dividing Arnor and the scattered remnants of Durin's kin after the fall of Moria. The dwarves, while able to kill orcs, possessed no means to defeat the balrog. Despite multiple valiant efforts they were unnable to reastablish their stronghold until Durin's Bane was vanquished... So if Sauron could command the Balrog, why would he move it? Akin to Shelob, he only needed to leave Durin's Bane be and both parties benefited. Sauron had no need of increasing his direct power to defeat the free peoples (but for our heroes incredibly unlikely success; which Sauron deemed impossible he would win easily) and the dwarves regaining some of their former strength and numbers, (as well as control of the Misty Mountains) would leave a loose end that had bit him before, and could cause serious problems logistically. I'd argue that Durin's Bane was right where Sauron wanted him, or he otherwise may have moved the balrog somewhere else to gain an advantage. One of his most bitter enemies was crippled by simply leaving the balrog where it was.
We don't know, working only from the LOTR text, that Sauron had no alliance with the balrog. Plan A may have been for the balrog to lead an attack on Lorien at the same time as the war against Gondor. Sauron was on at least plan B after Saruman cease to cooperate and may have been down to plan C.
10:15 - My gosh, ancient Batman fought with, and died for Gondor?!? 😲
Seriously though, thanks for the video! It's a reasonable theory why Sauron kept these other players "at arms length".
Respect for being transparent about using an AI voice. I know some channels that very obviously use an AI voice but they pretend like they don't.
Makes me want to re-read the Silmarillion again and see what can be dug up.
I remember reading that Gandalf's actions in "The Hobbit" were intended to prevent Sauron from using Smaug as a weapon in the upcoming war. I also remember reading a timeline that stated Sauron "stocked" Moria with orcs. This strongly implied that Sauron knew about the Balrog and gave him minions as a gift or bribe. Remember, guile, charm and persuasion were also among Sauron's talents. This video only briefly mentions that Sauron's powers were greatly diminished without the One Ring. This bears more emphasis. Sauron was clever and patient and fixated on recovering the One Ring. AFTER the ring was on his finger again, Sauron might have the power to easily enslave the Balrog, Smaug and Shelob at his leisure. Such unstated powers of the Ring, would provide clearer motivations for ALL those who were tempted to possess it throughout the Lord of the Rings. Imagine what they could do, if Gandalf, Galadriel, Elrond or Saruman could bend powerful monsters like the Balrog to their will. This was why Sauron obsessed over getting the Ring first.
_"Such unstated powers of the Ring..."_
Perhaps not expressly stated, but heavily implied. Galadriel's refusal to accept the Ring from Frodo because of how she would become an object of worship among the people of Middle Earth if she had.
Gandalf's and, perhaps more subtly, Aragorn's refusal to accept the Ring from Frodo out of fear of what would happen if they did; that fear extending to how they would likely descend into despotism despite having good intentions. A despotism that would see them rule over others.
Sam's fantasizing about turning Mordor into an agricultural paradise (obviously in need of tending by thousands of devoted gardeners) during his brief stint of bearing the Ring.
I think there's sufficient evidence in the text to support the idea that, among the Ring's many powers, influence - if not outright control of others - could be counted among them. Quite possibly scaling in proportion to the will of the wielder.
There is also the DISTINCT possibility that a Balrog on the move might come upon the possessor of the One Ring before Sauron could reclaim it through his agents. A Balrog with the One Ring is an opponent Sauron would have NOT want to risk inadvertently creating.
I use this as a sleep aid. Works everytime.
Sauron probably understood he had tactical advantage anyway. He almost won on Pelinor field without even gathering his full force, and lost only because several factors all turned against him. If he managed to get Ring he would have succeeded on second try leaving only scattered and disorganized opposition. And without Ring his disembodied spirit could not control neither Smaug nor Balrog.
What ai do you use for the narrator
Your analysis is quite sound. Excellent stuff!
The only thing I'd disagree on is the thought that Sauron was too weak without the ring to coerce the Balrog.
Sauron isn't just one of the strongest of the Maiar, he's _the_ strongest. Even without the ring he stands head and shoulders above all other Maiar, to the point where Gandalf the White (who describes himself as the most dangerous being Gimli would ever meet unless he came before Sauron himself) was almost broken by a remote contest of wills against him and wandered around in a daze for days afterwards.
Sauron could probably have squashed Durin's Bane like a bug if he felt so inclined.
Do a video about the possible alliance between Smeagle, Tom Bombadil, and the blue wizards.