What if Smaug Survived? | Tolkien Theory
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- čas přidán 26. 02. 2021
- "They will help one another!" With Gandalf's warning of a Smaug-Sauron alliance as a starting point, and using my usual weekly level of research, I've created a plausible scenario that sees Smaug survive, how Sauron could persuade the dragon to help, and the massive destruction that would result. There's some solid leads Tolkien gives us, as well as some guesses of my own. Let me know in the comments what you think would happen if Smaug the Terrible survived later into the Third Age!
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I Am Death - Tai91
Black Arrow - Paolo Puggioni
Gandalf and Thorin at Bree - Ted Nasmith
Sauron at Dol Guldur - WETA
Crowning of Aragorn - Inger Edelfeldt
Smaug the Destroyer - Ted Nasmith
Thorin Oakenshield - Matchack
Smaug - CK Goksoy
Attack on Dol Guldur - Angus McBride
The Battle of the Five Armies - Ozakuya
Orc Army - Melkir
Goblin King - Alan Lee
Gandalf in Moria - Donato Giancola
The Battle of Five Armies Map - Ares
Smaug - The Rising Soul
Erebor - Alan Lee
Smaug and the Orc Army - WETA
The One Ring - Magali Villeneuve
Council of Elrond - MySilverGreen
Lorien - Brothers Hildebrandt
Edoras - Bakarov
Minas Tirith at Dawn - Ted Nasmith
Galadriel - Livia De Simone
Galadriel (with vase) - Livia De Simone
Galadriel - Magali Villeneuve
Minas Tirith Beseiged - Alvaro C Escudero
Sauron - Johnny Slowhand
Smaug and his Gold - Anato Finnstark
#smaug #tolkien #lordoftherings - Zábava
What do you think would happen if Smaug survived? What theory would you like to see me take on next?! Let me know!
What if smeagol got killed by Bilbo in the misty mountains tho. Would the fellowship succeed in destroying the ring? Would Gandalf have suspected that Bilbo’s ring was the one ring?
Would Sauron know that it was found?
What if Saruman had claimed the Ring for himself? Would he have been an even greater foe than Sauron?
What if Celebrimbor disclosed the location of the three elven Rings to Sauron?
What if The fellowship had thrown the ring into the pit of Moria that the balrog and Gandalf fell into? Could that have been as good as destroying it? Or would Saron still have been too powerful for the free people’s to overcome?
What if Tolkien never wrote any literature, how long do you think or even if at all, D&D and all the lore/education/fantasy surrounding it, would of happend? Was there any other Author dabbling in this.
This scenario points out the importance of a wizard arriving precisely when he means to.
Underrated
But he was delayed and didn’t arrive when he meant to at the prancing pony
FACTS 🤯
@@orestessophocleous4026 maybe he was meant to be delayed. If the Gandalf met with them at the Prancing Pony, Aragorn wouldve never been able to help the hobbits and be a part of the Fellowship of the Ring!👀
Hahaha
Then Tom Bombadil sings just a little bit louder, and Sauron offers his most sincere apologizes while going back to Mordor quietly.
TOM BOM, BOMBADIL
The kingdom of Angmar should have a little unoccupied dot of foreign territory just north and east of the Old Forest.
Gandalf thinks that Tom Bombadil would eventually lose against Sauron, in The Fellowship od the Ring (he tells Frodo that "he would probably be the last one to fall"), so I don't see him resisting forever against Angmar's army
@@sandmaneyes
🎵 TOM. BOM. BOMBADIL TOM.
~~ARAGORRRN~~
TOM. BOM. BOMBADIL TOM.
~~ARAGORRRN~~
SAM. SAM. SAM GAMGEEEE. 🎶
@@the_nephandi4551 yeah but it would surely be too much trouble. They would probably let a spot untouched for a long long time.
Nazgul: "Uh, hey Smaug?"
Smaug: "What is it?"
Nazgul: "You know you have this bare spot on your chest there."
Smaug: "Oh shit! Thanks, I'll take care of that right away. I'd hate for some mortal punk to make a lucky trick shot or something like that."
Nazgul: I know right wouldn’t that be embarrassing to be killed by some random marksman in the FIRST TOWN you would attack in YEARS.
Smaug yo bro I know just imagine if some fisherman bard or some shit just got a lucky potshot
Nazgûl bro I know
Smaug: Yo, Sauron, can you do something for this missing scale?
Sauron : let's see....ah yes, a damaged quick is why the scale didn't regrow. No problems, just let me...(uses magic to heal wound)...there we go, good as new!
Smaug: (checks chest) why thank you. Now I am invincible!!!!! Beer is on me tonight.
I would argue that the mouth and eyes are bigger weakpoints
@@RupertTheOctopus It Won't hit it either he will dodge for Blow them away with his fire or wings
I think Gandalf would have eventually heard of Thorin mustering an army and would have sought him out; however, convincing him of a stealth approach at _that_ stage would have been a bit harder.
But in the new meeting with Thorin while preparing that army, Gandalf would speak of the map, and they would found out about the hidden gate. Knowing that gate the chances of the dwarves to defeat Smaug would have been greater. The question is, would the elves and the men of Vale just let an army of dwarves pass by? Would the Orcs and Goblins too? No, so probably the Battle of the Five Armies would have taken place years later, and with a living dragon to face them as well... Too risky XD
I mean for the people of lake town an dwarfen army would be there best bet to kill the dragon in hundred of years (no one was trying it befor or would do it again) and with an large group entering from the secret door as well as years of preparation the dwarf could have won. With great loses but nonetheless. Also the orks maybe didnt attacked them. An army of dwarfs sitting in there kingdom is still a big threat to anyone.
The issue comes during the march towards Erebor, the elves likely wouldn't permit an army of dwarves to pass through their lands and the orcs would certainly attack the dwarves before they could reach the mountain.
Smaug's indirect role in how the third age unfolds is fascinating
The one person missing is Aragorn, son of Arathorn. He was always Gandalf's Ace in the Hole. And the most crucial element of all is the One Ring itself. It is always thought of something passive, as opposed to intelligent power with its own agency. If not Bilbo, it would have found another Bearer instead. A Dunedain?
Gandalf most likely never would have met Aragorn, as he met him while he was searching for Gollum
It's the butterfly effect. Only this time the butterfly is an absolute unit
It's like a sexy side plot that you don't need so many details to enjoy.
OR you can take in alllll the details and come up with this nerdy shit I can't get enough of.
If the Forces of Good were eliminated, probably a power struggle would soon emerge between Sauron, Saruman and Smaug.
True. Sauron wouldn't need the other 2 once the forces of good were defeated. They are also the last 2 remaining beings of power that would stand a chance to fight him
They'd merge into an armored dragon in white robes: Smaurumong
@@christophernemeth421 true but there is also a possibility of Smaug being content after receiving even more riches. And Sauron probably wouldn't make a move until he found the one ring cause most of his power would not be with him otherwise
And then the Valar would come
@@scockery thank you, I am now imagining saruman and Smaug doing the dragonballz fusion dance lolol
I can’t imagine Sauron not losing an arm and a leg for taking rivendell, even with Smaug. Heck he’d probably lose Smaug. If Bard could hit the shot that killed Smaug, I have a feeling Elrond’s best bowman can definitely do it.
but would they have the McGuffin arrow?
There's a lot to dislike about the second and third Hobbit movies, but one thing they get right, I feel, is Smaug. The power and scale of the dragons in Arda really comes across in the visuals and voice work.
Thanks to Benedict Cumberbatch. Great Actor.
@@Samulise Yeah.
Yeah but the mighty dragon Smaug ate up all the budget for CGI so the those other animations look not good. Rewatch the scene when Bilbo wakes the dragon up. The pile of goldcoins looks very very bad around the pillars.... Yeah and all these orcs.
@@MrFeuerkuchen you must be pretty annoying to hang out with
Yeah. Absolutely. I just rewatched them, for the first time since I saw them in theaters. I remember being underwhelmed by them, as a whole, but thinking YES! they did the Dragon right. That's still true. All the scenes with Smaug are excellent. But I enjoyed it more than I thought I would. I also very much enjoy the 'Riddles in the Dark' scene in the first film.
So long story short: Smaug lives, and all hell breaks loose.
@@Linkskyfyre i would hope the Eagles would take a more significant role at that point!!!! And for some strange reason I think Saruman would have intervened as it would've messed up his plans of dominating Middle Earth...... plus Smaug can't be controlled so either way I think it would've backfired big time for Sauron!!!
Yep
Nah, in the movies at least, we just get another cgi shot of Legalos shooting him instead of Bard, with Gimli yelling how it only counts as one, or just standing there dumbstuck, muttering to himself
@@backonmygrind6826 ehhhhh there is only one thing i dont agree with. And that is sarumans compliance with sauron here. I think he only joined sauron AFTER the one ring was found. As in only after the events of the hobbit does he start changing sides.
Crazy how the fate of Middle Earth rested upon one chance meeting between Gandalf and Thorin, such is the way of Iluvatar I guess
It's pretty interesting how many small moments have very big, lasting impact!
I have a feeling Gandalf's "chance" encounters were well planned
Such is the way of life. "The flap of a butterflies wings can create a hurricane on the other side of the world. If given time"
What if Hitler was accepted into art school 🤔
@@notayoutuber3518 unfortunately, WWII was just a direct consequence of WWI, so even if Hitler wasn't there, fascisms would have still rosen
Here's another variation to consider. Some time after the White Council drives Sauron from Dol Guldur, the Council moves against Smaug. This could be done in conjunction with the Dwarvish assault on Erebor.
Smaug would probably be wise enough to flee at the first look of galadriel and Gandalf's power if they let him flee that is and he would be bitter about the loss of his gold and more ready to ally himself with Sauron
@@renarddubois940 i don't think they would have that much of a chance
@@brachialtick6539 I don't agree, I think the White Council could defeat Smaug.
@@58jharris Smaug is much more powerful than a severely weakened sauron. They probably could not win against a full power Sauron/Smaug but i'm not certain. After all smaug was only defeated by luck
@@brachialtick6539 and yet we have seen Dragons far more monstrous and great than Smaurg, in both size and in strength, slained by either a single champion or probably several normal warriors in the War of Wrath during the First Age. I doubt Smaurg could stand against the combined force of two Nordorian Elven Lord/Lady and two freaking Gods in disguised
I would think there's and even chance that Smaug would refuse Sauron's offer. He is a great and powerful dragon after all. He has no need for bargains, he takes what he wants.
He's just as likely to throw a wrench in everyone's plans. even to the point of gathering his own army of orcs/goblins to command.
After all, he was the greatest dragon of the 3rd age.
Dragons are blinded by wealth in Tolkien's universe. Pretty ez to bribe them imo if you could offer something great as Sauron did in this theory - the rule over the northern middle earth.
@AlHasan Sameh
Sauron doesn't really seem the type to try and brute force Smaug into submission (if he was strong enough to, which I doubt), he seems like the type who'd manipulate Smaug
@AlHasan Sameh sauron was essentially a glorified secretary, but he was definitely a lot smarter than what he let on!
Dragons were always loyal to Morgoth. No reason to believe that it would be any different with Sauron. But a fun "what if".
I’d love to see you take on “What if Galadriel had taken the One Ring?”
me too :)
@Richard Garrett This links to what if Gandalf took the ring. He asked what if GALADRIEL took the ring.
@Richard Garrett The link is for if Gandalf took it
I have a feeling she would become a queen as terrible as the dawn
I'm also very interested in this scenario. Galadriel is my favorite character
Wow, that dialogue with Smaug was really good! I could absolutely imagine reading that.
Thanks! Glad you enjoyed it!
@@SehlraC Thats because it comes straight from the books if im correct. But instead of Smaug its Dain who speaks to the messenger.
@@YawnWoofDog Correct, id does come from the books from the Fellowship when a messenger, hooded and cloaked, comes to the Lonely Mountain and exchanges the following dialogue with King Dain. Bascially the messenger offers the friendship of Mordor, and seeks information of a 'Baggins' and 'Shire' and seeks a ring. A lesser ring, the merest of trifles that Sauron desires. In return for their friendship and information of this Baggins or this minor unimportant ring, the messenger promises that Sauron will give Dain the Three remaining Dwarven Rings of Power.
As before Dain said neither yes nor no, and wants more time to consider the message. For his time is still his own.
The messenger gives the same veiled threat 'for now at least'. And departs.
The key difference is what occurs next. While Smaug is convinced to ally with Sauron, Dain's reaction is the opposite. He summons Gloin, and orders him and his son Gimli to travel to Rivendell with all speed to bring warning to both Elrond, the White Council and Bilbo that dark forces are seeking him. And then he tells his warriors to prepare for war.
So when war came to the North, the forces of Mordor did not find them unprepared.
@@NerdoftheRings It may interest you to know that the game The Lord of the Rings: War in the North adapted that same bit of dialogue to a conversation between a servant of Sauron and a dragon of their own making.
Imagine if Sauron not only gained allegiance with smaug, but with the Balrog from Moria as well.😳
Then mordor is starting to look terrifying.
It is pure luck that Sauron never found out Durin’s Bane existed. Otherwise, I could easily see those two striking an alliance together-to say nothing of Smaug being still alive.
The importance of Gandalf systematically taking out two of the heaviest players that could’ve aided Sauron in the Third Age before he could team up with them, is beyond staggering.
Like, imagine how bad the Battle of Minas Tirith was. Just picture that battle for a moment…and then, Durin’s Bsne shows up.
And not long after, Smaug.
@@joshuastrittmatter4188 The thing is that Balrog and Sauron are both Maiar so it's highly unlikely that Durin's Bane would bow to Sauron who is possibly on the same power level as him
A partnership could've been made but it still would've been a problem
@@Darkstar_Dayne I never said he would bow to Sauron. An alliance is literally what I stated.
@@joshuastrittmatter4188 I just don't see it happening. The balrog has no armies or kingdom. It has only hate and malice. It was a relic of Melkor's failure. It had no goal it could ever accomplish. It doesn't have any ambition and it can't be bought. It just wanted to sit in the dark and stew in it's hate until the end of time.
I don't think anyone could have gotten the Balrog on their side. Melkor was the only being in the universe that could have gotten the Balrog back into the action.
Sauron had nothing the Balrog wanted because the Balrog didn't want anything. Sauron couldn't have gotten the Balrog to get out of bed. Let alone go to war together.
I firmly believe Smaug would stay neutral in the war. Smaug would never part with his treasure or the mountain for a second. There's nothing Sauron has that Smaug would want besides the rings of power, and Sauron isn't giving those up.
Damn right ✅️. If he gives the rings up there's no books and no movies either. Just a paradox.
I kinda agree, only Melkor could control Balrogs and Dragons, Mairon would have to put his ring and all other rings, to even come close to subordinating Balrog or a Dragon. and making pacts with them would be very difficult - Smaug was darn lazy, and Mairon would rather provoke him to battle common enemies, than buy his alliance.
Yeah I think we would gotten another Melkor&Ungoliant story
he would not part with a single coin
I definitely agree. I don't think Smaug cared about any one side, and would have stayed neutral.
I love this "What if". The most interesting part is actually at what point does the story change. If the ring would still be found and somehow bilbo survied, but the quest failed, it would be a whole different story.
It would! I actually started down that path, when I re-discovered the Gandalf quote about it all coming down to the chance meeting between him and Thorin and decided to go with that.
@@NerdoftheRings that makes a lot of sense. Thank you!
@@AduAlexxx Still, the scenario of the quest failing at, for example, the mountain, would be interesting aswell. So the ring may have been found and the group already gathered.
@@SantaClause862 Smaug with the ring would have...changed things.
not very different ig, either bilbo gets killed in one of the battles and his ring might get discovered or worse, if he returns to the shire, and on getting enslaved, Sauron defo would have got that ring
Smaug and Sauron would end up playing out a similar scene that and Ungoliant and Melkor did. If Smaug caught wind of the ring he would demand it as he was promised riched greater than the dwarves trinkets. It would end up in battle with Sauraman either having been killed beforehand by Sauron or, being an opportunist prods them to war and hunts the ring working to find it.
Saruman Smaug and Sauron? Nice threesome x)
It is highy likely they would have fallen out with each other.
@@mussardlucien6355 *foursome: Everyone forgets that the Balrog is still alive too
@@AeneasGemini that one would surely serve saurom as he is the Balrogs former masters apprentice lmao
@@enricozoller9535 I think the Balrog could definitely come into play here. If you look at the way things play out, Moria is basically ignored while the battles against the Free Peoples go on. Meanwhile, Gollum had already become a little lax and restless hiding in the Misty Mountains. I think sooner or later, he gets caught by goblins, and the Great Goblin claims the Ring. Depending on how that goes down, it might be a bit tough for the outside powers to get to him; they'd be hard to storm from the outside. But there's no telling if the Balrog might have a path in the depths of the earth.
And if he claims the Ring, he's got the power to use it fully and supplant Sauron.
Hey, I’d like to see “What if Lobelia Saxville Baggins had the Ring”
Followed by the videos "What if Treebeard had the Ring" ... "What if Fatty Bolger had the Ring" and "What if Bill the Pony had the Ring" etc etc
She would've caged Bilbo and nagged him for an eternity. She is that evil.
She was the "Karen" of the Shire
@@zach6395 and taken bag end as her own!!
What if the ring made loud farting noises whenever evil was near?
I wouldn't know even half the things I now know about Tolkiens world without Nerd of the Rings :D
😁
I think Sauron first watched “How to tame your Dragon” first. And then they became the greatest friends.
That only works with dragons that are not hyper intelligent
a random guy The black one seemed to be.
@@RS-vz5gc maybe
HTTYD dragons are animalistic at best, though fairly intelligent.
@@dirandrous7682 just above a well trained dog
Even though this is a lot of speculation, I believe the only thing that is debatable is Smaug’s decision. I believe if he agreed to he alliance with sauron then most events would play out as said, but I also don’t believe that Smaug would be so hasty to either ally himself with sauron or leave the lonely mountain to fight with the forces of Mordor. Smaug’s time before the company of dwarves and bilbo came to the mountain was mostly spent with his treasure or in his desolation. Even though he would be backed by an army of orcs in this theory I still don’t see it very plausible he would leave his home guarded solely by an army of orcs
Sauron probably doesn't convince Smaug to join him and plans on dominating him after he finishes off the rest of Men/Dwarves/Elves.
I thought the idea of playing on Smaug's fear of both loss and the unknown was convincing. He's insulated from the world and knows nothing of what is going on, so the implication that his treasure is on the tip of everyone's tongue sparks paranoia. And while he may bluster about his power, he's wise enough to know that other dragons, far more powerful than he, had been defeated by capable hosts. The promise of a powerful ally, an expansion of his territory and riches, and -- most of all -- security from future invasion seems to be a knockdown offer to entice him. And while that may not have been the exact way Tolkien envisioned the conversation going, it's pretty clear that he wrote Gandalf as being worried that the alliance would occur given time, so I'd be inclined to believe Smaug would take the offer.
I have to disagree, I believe that the Alliance would initially be formed, but that it wouldn't last. Remember that Tolkien always believed that evil betrays itself, in the end all the different competing evil forces would turn on each other before fully finishing the good guys
Offering Smaug the Three Rings might have been enough.
@@jdshofner834 if Smaug accepts the three rings, then two things can happen.
1. After Smaug put on the rings, in time, he will be enslaved to Sauron forever.
2. After Smaug put on the rings and is strong enough to withstand the domination of Sauron, because of the nature of dragons, he would no doubt be corrupt by the power of the rings, having the effect similar to what had happened to the dwarves. Then with time, he will become more greedy and seek out more treasure. In this scenario, due to the insufficient amount of treasure to satisfy his greed, Smaug would betray Sauron, resulting in a war between the forces of Smaug and the forces of Sauron. With all out war between the dark forces, all the lands of Middle Earth is covered in darkness until, in the mountains from the ruins of a place forgotten, a pale dim light shines. And from that light, sparks insurrection.
I agree 100% with the analysis you presented, however I believe that Sauron would have sent messengers to Moria to unleash the Balrog as well upon the Free Peoples of Middle Earth. A sad ending for Middle Earth, but for a "chance" meeting in Bree. As Tolkien wrote, it was the One (Eru) who still looked after events in Arda that prevented this scenario.
Sauron probably didn't even know that the Balrog was even there. Nerd of the Rings even hypothesized in another video that Sauron and the Balrogs were on the same power level. Even if he knew the Balrog was there, he probably deliberately left it alone or would've looked to it as an ally rather than a servant. At least at first.
I dont think the balrog would answer to sauron.
Arent balrogs just maiar who changed their appearence and shapeshifting potential into more direct power?
As far as i remember, they are servants of melkor. Not sauron who is roughly at their power level.
Both Smaug and the Balrog would have heeded commands from Sauron. The Balrog was indeed a Maiar like Sauron, however Sauron outranked all the Balrogs (Including Gothmog) just as Sauron outranked all five of the Istari.
@@wij2012Gaming Yes, like Smaug. But Sauron is more powerful than the Durin's Bane, he was in the same hierarchy that ancalagon, glaurung and gothmog (Strongest Balrog) were as Morgoth's best lieutenants. A lesser Balrog would not be his equal, if he regained his power at least.
But then its the same with smaug, Sauron treated him as an ally.
No doubt Smaug would get greedy, Saruman would want more power, and Sauron would see everyone as a threat. And all of them would want the One Ring (Smaug would see it as treasure). The "axis" of evil probably wouldn't get along with each other any more than they got along with the forces of good. Sauron would have to keep the alliance together long enough to defeat Galadriel and Elrond, who would be actively scheming against them at every turn. Meanwhile, everyone outside the axis powers would be forging alliances they might not have otherwise considered, in particular Dwarves and Elves. The video narrative is a worst case scenario, fair enough, but I think that other chance meetings and unlikely heroes might emerge to defeat Sauron's plans in a different way. It's fun to think about.
Yes this version of alternative history relys on the good guys doing nothing proactive
What if smeagol got killed by Bilbo in the misty mountains tho. Would the fellowship succeed in destroying the ring? Would Gandalf have suspected that Bilbo’s ring was the one ring?
Would Sauron know that it was found?
Bilbo would have likely claimed the Ring for his own, briefly becoming the Dark Lord of the Shire, in the process:
-putting the Sacksville-Baggins to death
-conquering the Breelands
-Slaying much of the Dunedain, including Aragorn, inadvertently bringing an end to the line of Isildur
-He would then lead his hordes of hobbits southward, sacking Rivendell before moving on into Rohan and Isengard
-Eventually, with Gondor about to arrive to save the Rohirrim, the Ring would betray Bilbo, and would find its way back to Sauron...
@Richard Garrett
I know, this was supposed to be a ridiculous joke, based on the comical image of Bilbo leading “hordes of hobbits” to conquer the North, slaying Aragorn in single combat, etc
Eh, maybe it wasn’t as clear as I had thought 😅
The survival of smeagol/gollum was of the utmost importance, with no smeagol Frodo and Sam would have likely perished as there would have been no one to guide them into Mordor, nor to take the ring from Frodo at the end in Mt. Doom.
@@warlordofbritannia I loved it 😂
I've always thought about this secenario, such a great and interesting video could be made!
Sauron: While some realms in Middle-earth have horses or oliphaunts for battle steeds, I have A DRAGON!
Not how you intended it, but I got a very King Richard from Galavant vibe from that comment.
Is it just me? Or do guys also say: "this shit tastes like smaug" after eating a sausage.
Smaug: Sorry, you need to teach me the Fly TM.
So if Thorin stepped on an uneven kerb and rolled his ankle, they would all be dead.
It would have been a bleak picture indeed, but when you described Sauron having the three rings, towards the end, it sent chills down the spine.
SAME
Absolutely bone-chilling thought...
First time I was this early, Eru was still chanting the creation of the world
Lol
Eru never chanted a thing. The Ainur did all the heavy lifting while Eru sipped his soy latte and nibbled a biscuit
This man Bombadils.
@@MrKbonez I think the Ainur sang to create an idea of the world but Eru used his power to bring the world into existance. It's like creating a game idea and asking a game dev to make and publish it
@@arandomguy1226 Eru puts the song into the minds of the Ainur, lets them sing it, and then shows them what they have sung. Frankly, they do all the work while he sits there like a movie critic
This shows how important the story of the Hobbit really is
Found this channel today and its my new addiction
Welcome to NOTR! 😁
PLEASE DO A SECOND PART. the world is still not lost! There is always hope! Even in the darkest of times! Love ittt
“Yo Eonwe time for War of wrath 2.0, just try not to sink a continent this time round.”
- Manwe, probably
I love how Smaug unbeknownst to o him quotes Dain the Ironfoot when answering to the messenger of Sauron :D
Alternative scenario: The events of The Hobbit play out the same, until Smaug attacks Dale. Instead of being killed, he is injured, and returns to the Grey Mountains. Erebor is reclaimed by the dwarves, Battle of Five Armies still happens, etc. But in the aftermath, Smaug is still around.
Its a bit weird when everything falls into place for one side or the other, there has to be some pushback, some back and forth even if evil ends up winning.
What if Elrond fought Smaug like his father and Ancalagon?
That's a great connection I didn't think of! Though Elrond wouldn't have a flying ship or a Silmaril.
@@NerdoftheRings maybe the Silmarilion repeats itself and Earendel saves the day against Sauron like against Morgoth.
Earendil could have seen from afar the doom that approached his son and descend into Middle Earth one final time. Lets also not forget that the eagles could have been summoned to attack Smaug alongside both Elrond, Gandalf or even Earendil himself.
@@KMT1998
Ëarendil is in the sky protecting the world from Morgoth's return and won't return himself until the Dagor Dagorath
@@zachiboi5253 Definitely think the eagles would have turned up for the Rivendell fight. And that could very well have made the difference against a dragon
Man that epilogue gave me goose bumps.
All your videos are amazing, but these ones, where you theorize about possible timelines, are absolutely the best. I could listen to them forever. You have a marvelous knowledge of Tolkein's work, but a seemingly miraculous ability to know his mind.
Hi! Just found out that you used my artwork as the thumbnail for the video and I'm really flattered for it :) I've been listening to your videos while working on art commissions for quite some time and I love it!
I'd love to see a "what if gandalf survived Moria" if there is any way of knowing!
That's a really interesting premise! I'll have to think on that one!
Or what if saruman didnt hunt the fellowship i think rohan and gondor will fall
The original screenplay actually called for Gandalf to survive and become Gandalf the Black, thereafter being portrayed by Robert Downey Junior. Unfortunately, scheduling conflicts prevented this and the plot point ultimately had to be rewritten.
@@richard1493 thank god
@@user-ft3jq5vi2l I’m pretty sure that’s a joke
Somethings are missing, charity towards the good side:
• What of Aragorn? Will he just sit on his thumbs as a simp before arwen?
• What of Gandalf the White?
• What of Boromirs leadership? ...In extension, Denethor's sanity?
• What of the Morian Balrog of Morgoth?
• What would the One Ring do as the black pieces come together?
• What of a last alliance? Will the riders of rohan simply twiddle their thumbs? Woodland realm, galadrihir, mithrandir, elrond, cirdan? Is it in their character to do nothing as second darkness covers middle earth?
• Would Tom Bobadil sit idly by as Frodo and his kin are enslaved?
With all that said, I enjoyed your take on the what if.
It seems like Gandalf and likely Aragorn would die at the Battle of Imladris. Boromir would fight hard but fall. With Theoden under Saruman's sway, Rohan never unites and yes, actually does twiddle their thumbs.
Curious about Ents and Bombadill - they very likely may never be risen to give a crap
The Balrog was pretty cool chillin in Moria amongst the Orcs. No reason why he would rise from his slumber either!
He answered some of these questions.
As christiansenator said, Aragorn would likely die defending Rivendell.
The fellowship would never happen, so Gandalf would never fight the Balrog, and would die as Gandalf the Grey. Whether Illuvitar would send him back again is another question. It's possible that when Sauron's victory looked certain, Illivutar would intervene, but it's an impossible thing to predict given how little he intervenes in his creation.
Boromir would fight valiantly but fruitlessly in defence of Minas Tirith.
Denethor's sanity is an interesting question. It's likely that he would eventually go a little mad and depressed through his continuous use of the Palantir, even with Boromir and Faramir alive and well. Sauron would greatly delight in showing him the power of Smaug and the destruction of Rivendell and Lothlorien.
The Balrog may stay sleeping through the whole thing. Or Sauron may approach him in a similar way to how he approaches Smaug.
A last alliance is plausible. Gondor, Cirdan, and the Woodland Realm may send some troops North to fight and help defend the Elven kingdoms, but they would still lose.
Rohan would be either rendered useless or destroyed by Saruman and Wormtongue.
Tom Bombadil's area does not include the shire. His lands are next to the shire. It's hard to say what he'd do when his lands were inevitably invaded. Maybe he'd run off to the Undying Lands, maybe he'd defend and forever have his mini 'kingdom', or maybe he'd be overrun.
@@KeppyKep The video creator made a strong and valid argument, and so did you, but as Gandalf admitted: For even the very wise cannot see all ends.
Firstly, I refuse that argument based the character of the good people. If for some reason you were never born, that doesn't mean your parents would never have a child in your stead. They would try again, because it was in their character to want a child. Just because Gandalf didn't meet the dwarfen king on that one day, doesn't mean he never bumped into others on another day to try again. It's the same thing with every other good character and the will to fight against darkness and persevere.
Lastly, I also refuse the argument because of the opportunity cost of the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings. With every sacrifice, small and great, made by every good character mentioned and not mentioned. Directly or indirectly as a cause, partially or wholly, of the meeting in the Prancing Pony. With every sacrifice that didn't occurre according to plan, there was the opportunity to sacrifice something else at different time.
Such as this example: When the pandemic, a year ago, swept across the globe, with self-imposed exile on a scale never before seen, it didn't mean people apathetically looked at a wall 9-5. They found new opportunities, such as they could spend the time they usually spent commuting to work, on other activities. Lots of people now prefer working from home, but they only know it because things didn't go according to plan.
Or the inverse example: Imagine the fellowship managed to sneak past Moria, and Gandalf never fell, we might never have seen he become The White. Things didn't go according to plan, jet a better opportunity came to pass because of it.
In the same manner, but broadly speaking: In the absence of the Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings, who is to say the good people of middle earth and the Valar didn't find better opportunities? Why do you only see the end of all things and not any hope?
Cheers
It's heavily implied in the books that if the Fellowship, including Aragorn and Gandalf, had not come to Rohan, that it would've fallen under Saruman. Aragorn would likely die in the defense of Rivendell. I do agree that Gandalf might be a stronger player than hinted at in this video, so agree with you on that!
Totally agree.
I think no matter where you cut into the story, if Smaug survives - Sauron wins.
I really like these "What if" videos of yours. They're really well thought out and researched and sound pretty solid. 👍😁
I'm not sure if Rivendell would fall so easily...they have Glorfindel..wouldn't he make a difference?
I did think about Glorfindel, but in the end, I think that by this time in the Third Age, many elves have sailed west. Elrond even says in FOTR that they could hold out for a short time, but if Sauron came, Rivendell would fall - and this is without a dragon attacking. While Glorfindel may be able to take on Sauron one-on-one, I think the sheer might and numbers of the forces here would be too much for them.
a lot of power in rivendell. I also believe they would have gotten reinforcements from galadreil/grey havens. Surely Glorfindel, gandalf, and elrond would have been enough to take down smaug. Not to mention the sons of elrond.
That said I don't think defeating smaug would have prevented a dark ending. Rohan would still fall, Gondor would continue to grow weaker and eventually most of the elves would leave middle earth.
@@NerdoftheRings I think my main criticism of your overall deduction would be that you ignored the key weakness that Tolkien ascribed to all evil forces. The fact that evil will always betray itself.
Personally I think that the Dragon would've turned on Sauron before their victory was complete. Their boundless greed and egotism would lead one the two sides to be as much a danger to each other as to their enemy.
Without going into too much detail, I believe that the Balrog of Moria, Smaug and Saruman would all compete with Sauron for power, even before defeating the free peoples (at least not fully). They would be arrogant enough in their supremacy to win over the forces of good that they would fight each other before finishing them
@@AeneasGemini Interesting take there! Yes it's true. Look at the orcs and the Uruk-hai, evil when left to itself always turns on itself, so this would possibly be inevitable. Tolkien had a keen intuition with this and would be interesting to go into it, would be an epic fight to have all 3 of them turn on each other....wow
@@NerdoftheRings What do you think of the above? To have all 3 face off for the ultimate power, 3 forces with an epic army behind them. Kinda drooling in thought of that battle haha
I love these theory videos! Well researched ‘what if’ videos like this are as steeped in lore as the ‘historical’ ones, and it’s so much fun to think about how differently things might have gone, if not for the decisions of a single moment... thanks as always for your amazing content!
Thanks so much! Glad you enjoyed it! These are a lot of fun to do and give my brain some good exercise. There's a fair number of trails I go down, only to realize there's a better path I should've taken, so I scrap it and go back. haha.
@@NerdoftheRings eh, that’s always the way! :) who doesn’t enjoy getting lost in the thousand possibilities anyway :)
Bilbo would be done with his quest and sitting on his porch when a voice rumbles through the wind.
"So this is the path unseen, is it Barrel Rider."
Saruman, Smaug, The Nazguls, Sauron, The orcs and more. Thats what I call fighting with the odds against
It seems like middle earth couldn't possibly be more screwed. But there is still the east to consider. There are still 3 wizards left, and 4 if Gandalf comes back to life. There are forces of the east that could fortify themselves against Sauron and the others.
I'm confused about Smaugs death, do the arrows have a special power that kills one instantly? because I doubt it even got that far into his chest to hit his heart
He died because the arrow had hit a wound he already had. So the arrow went deep
@@optimizmanadic4564 Nah. That's a film addition. In the books, the stated thing is that a dragon's underbelly is its only weak spot (a reference to the story of Sigurd and Fafnir).
I'd say it's very likely that the black arrow was indeed magic--to the extent that well-crafted items in Tolkien are often labeled as such. Bard does say it has never missed its mark, and it has always returned to him. It was also an heirloom from his ancestor Girion, and rumored to be crafted by the dwarves.
It's mostly just a black arrow with vague magic behind it, but Smaug's wound was mostly just a convenient Achilles' Heel meant for the simple story of The Hobbit.
It is also stated that it pierced his belly completely, head, shaft, and feather went fully into his heart.
Good and convincing scenario. Methinks Tolkien would have sent an army from Valinor (War of Wrath 2.0) if it had gotten this bad... ushering a Forth Age story line with it's own endings. This would've focused on a Civil War between Sauron and Saruman with the remaining Free Peoples as a resistance with it's next generations of Heroes. That's if Tolkien wanted to drag out the history for a Fourth Age....
Hey mate, putting plausibility and theory aside for a moment, your narrative and imaginative input was incredibly well done and highly enjoyable. It was a pleasure to watch, my friend, and inspired a few ideas in the process.
So thank you for that, too; and good luck.
I think it likely that when Sauron's forces attack Lorien, Saruman would take the opportunity to keep Sauron from getting too large. Saruman would assist Lorien, killing Smaug. When Lorien goes to assist Gondor, Saruman would reveal his treachery and take out Lorien from behind. Sauron would ultimately defeat Saruman, the latter would serve as King of the North on a short leash, because of his influential speech and power.
Excellent point!! I also think the Council might have reached out to Saruman before attacking the Necromancer - and Saruman probably would have jumped at the chance to weaken Sauron (giving himself more time to search for the ring).
I think everything else would probably have worked out the way it was described here, but with Saruman with the Council (at least for the time being). Doubt it would change the course of things much.
Excellent point, Saruman would be waiting for the best moment to betray each party, playing both sides until seeming to align with whoever he thought was going to win
Second time you bring tears to my eyes with the overwhelming epicness of your videos ... Magnificent work!
Jeez. The Valar would have to run it back at this point. A video like this actually makes you realize how staggeringly powerful the forces of Elves and Men were in the First and Second Ages because one Dragon and any random Noldor/Numenorean doesn’t even sneeze.
Dang I just found this channel today and am blown away by the research and thought. The maps are a really good addition too because it gives us a birds eye view. Earned a subscriber.
Awesome! Glad you liked it and I hope you enjoy the other vids. Thanks for subscribing!
Love this scenario! Always a sucker for a Villains Win story. Only real hangup is about the Ring. When Bilbo finds the Ring in the cave, Gollum had already lost it. And with the Ring's ability to subtly draw others toward It, I feel It would have been found by a patrolling goblin soon enough. Then either the Great Goblin would claim It, or It would influence the finder to take the position themselves. Then as Sauron begins summoning his forces from their dark corners he would take notice of the Great Goblin's mighty treasure and, quickly realizing what it is, finally take back what is his. I know this video is a year old and that someone probably already said this, but I just watched it and wanted to put this in myself. Love the channel!
Agreed. I am also late to the discussion, but immediately thought how it would only be a few years until Sauron plucked the ring from the Goblin king. It had already left Gollum.
Kinda sad knowing this will never happen because of Illúvatar, but still fun to think about.
I heard that people could live an alright life as long as the hailed sauron as a god and helped his ego it would be bad but because he loved order it wouldn't be as bad as some may think
Read 1984. I think Orwell would agree with you. For most, it would be just tolerable. On the other hand, in history, it seems to go far worse & burn itself out. However, in history the tyrant isn't immortal, with unimaginable personal power. I expect in Tolkien's world, with no hope of Middle Earth righting itself, the Valar would intervene like they did in the past.
@@stephenbrown9949 i agree
@@stephenbrown9949 I think that Sauron would probably force their hand by attacking them first (pulled by his ego of course), but six and half a dozen I suppose
Maybe or maybe not he caused alot of chaos for someone who wanted order and start a industrial revolution, I can see saruman bringing order and a industrial revolution if he comes down a bit , saruman has the means in isengard to have a modern metropolis he has a 500 ft tall tower to lead from , a ring wall around them to protect the place, and he can use the iron mines he has to mass produce iron tools etc , iron beams to build skyscrapers inside the walls as apartments for people to live in put some wood floors and inside wood walls and stone for outside walls of skyscrapers and he has a dammed river to control the water and build a water pipe to the city and each skyscraper floor have toliets, baths and drinking water and just let the drainage go down a central empty space in middle of skyscraper to go down a sewer etc, build outings like schools, parks , pubs and pools etc and a open market etc and , have a water pipe built to irrigate the farmland around the wall area and outward to feed population etc, and have a railroad going in, around and Through area to help get to places easier with horse cars a big wagon size railcar pulled by horses or other animals etc, and reinforce the dam with iron beams to make it stronger and have a fishing industry from the dam river to have more meat etc, and have a logging industry for ironworks cooking fires, torches to light up the city at night to have a nightlife and paper etc to use and saruman and the people of isengard would be living good lives in a modern city lol 😎🌆🌁
This is a great video. Your vignette between the Mouth of Sauron and Smaug was really good
A few things I would like to note here;
Firstly the quote by Gandalf to Saruman in The Fellowship of the Ring, "There is only one Lord of the Rings, and he does not share power!" It seems unlikely that Sauron would forge allegiance with a being as mighty and self-serving as Smaug. It seems to me there would be several points along this theory-line where that relationship would sour, and the Dragons greed would ultimately lead to conflict. Almost definitely
Secondly, the lack of involvement of Gwahir and the Eagles, who after all were instrumental in the battles against the original Dragons of the first age, notably Ancalagon the Black. Not to mention the eagles actual involvement in the battle of the five armies, so we can assume they would have interjected and I doubt Smaug would stand much of chance against the Eagles of Manwë
Thirdly, I don't believe the Valar would have sat by and allowed total domination by Sauron to happen regardless, and had it the chance of coming to pass, they would have calculated that as a factor when initially soliciting the Istari to middle-earth and taken more prudent measures. After all, it was the Valar who turned the tide in the War of Wrath by gifting Elendil the power of the silmaril. Its a big "what if?" but they may easily have utilised Tulkas who alone would be more than a match for the Dragon or Sauron or both.
We even know from the winds that denied passage to the spirits of Saruman and Sauron that some level of interjection from the Valar was inevitable.
I really like your take on Smaug's dialogue.
Without the ring quest, then the Balrog and orcs of Moria would come into play for the attack on Lorien without the need for the Easterlings
These are fantastic discussions. Theory and canon are clearly displayed during the presentation and the progression of story is logical and well done. Bravo!
Brilliant, I love your "what if" videos, so well thought out and considerate of the history and delicate balance of power in middle earth. definitely something i would read or even a game i would play.
I love the video! Genuinely it is an incredibly interesting scenario. I'm not sure Smaug would ally himself with Sauron so quickly. He is a very proud beast, and would view serving another great dishonor. However, I'm not sure
In my opinion. I believe we should have a short TV show of the events you spoke of. Having smaug allow himself to be in a Alliance with Sauron would be a great help in taking over middle earth would be such a great idea. Besides. Sauron already did have a big force by his side and having a dragon 🐉join in would only further help the complete take over and destruction of middle earth seem easy. So many battles could have been changed. So many movie events could have been different only if the dragon did not get killed by Bard.
A Saruman vs. Sauron 'What if' video as a follow up would be amazing! I love your videos about these possibilities based on actual lore, they're super interesting.
I love these infographic videos showing timelines and locations, great video!
Glad you are enjoying the channel! 😁
Great video and a frightening look at how things could have ended up.
Fascinating theory. I’ve often pondered what might have been if Sauron had managed to bring Smaug, Durin’s Bane, or both to him before the War of the Ring. The results would be understandably catastrophic.
I would say the Balrog’s forces most likely would have joined Smaug and the Nazgûl in their southern March, and in the aftermath of Gondor’s fall, the combined might of the dark forces, primarily loyal to Sauron, would have forced Saruman to flee like the others, or be destroyed. Sauron’s dominion would be unchallenged, with his only remaining challenge being the return of the One Ring. I’ve always considered Sauron’s chances of complete victory in Middle Earth to have been higher than Morgoth’s, since the Valar could not intervene after the First Age’s conclusion, washing their hands of Middle Earth and its affairs after the War of Wrath. Of course, they could intervene indirectly, and did, but if Sauron ever eliminated his principal foes, no amount of meddling could have stopped him. Of course, this never came to pass, ultimately because the Music of the Ainur would play out in the world according to Eru’s design. It could be conjectured then that one Eru Illuvatar was behind the chance meeting at Bree!
I agree, Eru as behind the chance meeting in Bree, just as Gildor Inglorian said to Frodo when they met in the woods of the Shire.
Wow, just wow. You take nerd to a whole new level- I ❤ these scenarios, because I remember dwelling on them in many, many discussions with friends and loved ones. Great memories!
Haha! Thanks! I take that as a compliment. :) Thanks so much for watching!
A fascinating well reasoned and researched what-if scenario, very well explained and explored. Nicely done.
long story short, everyone pay their respects to the brave dwarves and of course, Bard who shot the arrow.
Man, I never had thought about how the Timeline would change...Unless you changed it earlier, maybe later, or at the same time...Because wow, they *people* do say a few days makes all the difference!!!!
We always appreciate your hard work and dedication towards these videos.
Well done!!! Beautiful content and a well told theory and story
I wonder if Sauron really has the ability to unite and rule such an army. It seems that the greatest strength of the enemy is when he turns allies against each other or corrupts them. The over lying theme of Tolkien’s works always seems to be that it is when good turns on itself that evil triumphs but in this scenario we only see a failure of a chance meeting not the type of infighting and betrayal that led to the victory of evil again and again in the legendarium. Additionally Morgoth and his servants by their nature are creatures of discord and though they may rule through fear there iS no true unity. I don’t imagine Smaug or Sauraman content to play second fiddle. The great armies would unravel in discord and infighting would destroy the forces of darkness just as it did the forces of good. Yes the North would be ravaged but there are many paths for good to triumph though they might be harder.
its crazy how something like gandalf and thorin not meeting would lead to middle earth being conquered by sauron
Thank you for doing this. I am loving every video. The amount of time you put into this is truly incredible and the artwork is perfect.
Wow, this was so well done. I'll bet if Tolkien were still alive he would be proud of your fan fiction. I was dissapionted when Smaug died; so this was a satisfying watch. Thanks!
I really like the idea of Sauron and Saruman having a kind of cold war over middle earth after the great battles are over. Smaug would probably be content with his riches tho and go back to sleep.
I hope you do more What If Scenarios like what if Sauron had reclaimed the one ring in the Battle of The Black Gate if Gollum had not fallen into the fires of Mount Doom or what if Morgoth had not been defeated and won the War of Wrath.
These ‘What if’-videos are so interesting to watch, thank you!
Thanks! Glad you are enjoying them!
13:32 Haha, I love how you just twisted the knife in further there with this grim alternate timeline. :)
Shoutouts to my boy TomDaBombadil19, whom I don't know but has the greatest user name in the history of the internet.
Short answer: all hell would've broken loose and things would've really sucked!
This got me hyped for a follow up where a different fellowship fights a guerrilla war against Sauron's armies, probably lead by Gandalf the white (the valar sent him back in canon, so why not now too?)
First video I've seen after subscribing last week where you were at 175K subscribers. I have to say I'm quite pleased with the great content!
Please do an episode on Feanor! He's fascinating!
a new thought struck me! What would have happened if Smaug had gotten hold of the ring? Had Smaug taken Saron's throne?
This is one of my favorite NOTR videos. Great work! Do a video about "What if Durin's bane survived?"
I think it's a good theory! There are so many other ideas I would have with this. But I love how you did this one and story!
Enjoyed this video! Will you please do a video about what would happen if Eowyn and Merry never went to the Pelennor Fields?
"It is said that the power of her and her ring could not be overcome unless Sauron himself would come to do battle." They would lose at Lothlorien. Galadriel, as far as we know, cant be beaten. She knows dragons from the 1. Age and how to kill them. And orcs or man cant overcome her magic around Lothlorien. Thats that.
Thank you🙏
Galadriel is unmatched by anything less than the Maia. Lothlórien would likely become the fortress from which all meetings and offensives were carried out, and either Sauron has to go down there himself (potentially giving the forces of good an opening to siege Barad-dûr), or Lothlórien is never defeated.
You`ve just earned another subscriber...that tale was awesome❤️❤️❤️
Id love to see more of these well thought out "what if" videos
Wow. I’d love to see this as a “What If?” movie.
Nerd Of The Rings - a man of great content.
We don't deserve you bro👐
As my wise grandpa onse said to me "boy don't you plan your future in all the detail, for you see that the most beautiful things happen to be coincidences" and I think those are the most beautiful words I've ever heard. I think this is so fitting for so many things and if Gandalf never would've met Thorin trough a coincidence our beloved world of Middle earth would lie in fire and ruin.
I love these theories so much and how it can change the story please continue on to make more theories like this they are amazing