The Eugene Stoner Tapes - Part 3: The Stoner 63
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- čas přidán 30. 06. 2024
- This video is one of many in a series created from an interview conducted by Edward C. Ezell with Eugene Stoner in 1988 at ARES Inc. in Port Clinton, Ohio. All the footage is courtesy of the Smithsonian Institution Archives. All I have done is cut some of the waiting time between tapes out and tried to fix the audio. Otherwise, what you are seeing is entirely unadulterated.
Feel free to ask any questions about the various topics of the video in the comments. I will do my best to answer them.
TIMESTAMPS
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0:00 - Life after ArmaLite
1:02 - The Stoner 63 concept
3:37 - Stoner on why the Stoner 63 didn't sell
6:02 - The Army's sabotage of the Stoner 63 in testing with bad tracer ammo
8:51 - The Army's favoritism of the Rodman SAW
10:07 - Another 6mm shell game to eliminate competing 5.56 LMGs
13:32 - The use of metal stamping in the Stoner 63
17:18 - Comments on the Stoner 86/ARES LMG-1
20:12 - The role of new materials and manufacturing technology in weapons design
23:25 - The group effort of modern weapons design
28:14 - Passing on the skills of weapons design
32:30 - Stoner comments on his and Kalashnikov's similar lack of an engineering background
40:16 - B-roll of Ezell discussing Stoner 63 variants
The Eugene Stoner Tapes playlist: • The Eugene Stoner Tapes
All footage is used with permission from the Smithsonian Institution Archives. - Věda a technologie
I was fortunate enough to have had a long conversation with Gene in the early 90's at the NRA convention in Nashville . In that I mentioned the AR 180 and its piston vs the gas cylinder piston arrangement of the AR-15 carrier . Of note I mentioned how clever the carrier was as the opposing forces were pushing the bolt FORWARD as it pushed the carrier rearward and there by taking some of the load off the locking lugs during the un-locking phase . Gene stated he had never thought of that , but that I was correct . Like Gene I did not go through engineering school but I have designed automatic welding and assembly machines exactly as Gene was stating how he became a self taught engineer . In many ways we are very similar . In part I designed the target rifle Tube stock as a inline recoil system and simplified the rifle design in the process with a one piece extruded aluminum tube that has a picatinny rail on it .. used that to set numerous US and NZ wins and records . It would have been a pleasure to have worked with some one like Gene , he certainly has left his mark on the history of arms design .
Wow. Its interesting to know that the Army was just as shady then as it is now.
Read the whole story of the adoption of the M14 and how the army basically rigged the tests to get the rifle it wanted, regardless of whether a different rifle (the FAL in this case) might have been better. The whole sorry, sordid tale is told in Edward C. Ezell's book, "The Great Rifle Controversy," and you can also read how they deliberately undermined the AR10 and then the AR15 when those rifles were tested. One of the few things Robert McNamara got right as Secretary of Defense was closing down the Springfield Armory. It might have been a great institution once, but by the middle of the 20th century it had become an overly conservative one that was rotten with "not invented here" syndrome. Of course, closing it down did not prevent the army from having other procurement follies, sad to say.
Small Arms Solutions has some interesting videos on the subject, as well.
@@Hibernicus1968 That corruption goes all the way back to the 1840s.
My thoughts exactly. I know this new SIG project is not going anywhere.
Sure as hell is
The Army smacks of bribes, interference and backhand deals. It must have been so frustrating for Stoner to be at the behest of those army fools.
Stoners' story is literally the american dream. Work one's way up through the ranks. Very interesting.
I can relate. I'm not the sharpest block in the shed, but there are people that think just because they have a degree they are smarter than you. But I come with experience from previous experience and can outperform some working.
this was just the modular rifle program but 50 years earlier. _and we still picked the 8000 dollar sig!_
Stuff like this is why they say "No good plan survives Big Army." Army procurement is where dreams go to die.
Navy SEALs utilized Stoner 63s and Modified RPDs to great effect in Vietnam. Keep in mind that FN didn’t release the M249 until 1976, so Stoner was ahead of his time with the 63.
The chassis of the Stoner 63 could be configured into an assault rifle, a carbine, top-fed light automatic weapon and belt-fed squad automatic weapon.
The Stoner 63’s failure is wholly unsurprising given the benefit of hindsight.
1.) The U.S. military had recently adopted a new service rifle across all branches.
2.) In it’s service rifle configuration, it was almost 2lbs heavier than the M16A1.
3.) In it’s squad automatic weapon configuration, the parts were too lightweight and prone to excessive wear for long term use.
4.) Modularity wasn’t seen as a benefit in the late 60s - early 70s.
@@Enraged-Gecko Funnily enough #3 is the exact reason we ditched the M60 in the first place. After a lot of wear you had to replace literally everything but the trunnion
The Stoner 63A made a good impression on both the USMC and the SEALs, except that at that point in the design, a higher maintenance effort was needed than the M16A1 or M60. The USMC liked the carbine and LMG. The SEALs adopted the LMG as the Mk.23 in long and short barrels. The Mk.23 did well with the SEALs as they had the time to spend on maintenance between missions. The problem was that the rifle and carbine weighed more than other contemporary rifles because the same receiver which had to serve an LMG was used in the rifle and carbine. The US Army tested the XM207 (Stoner 63A) as a SAW in the early 1970s but couldn't afford new weapons and equipment in the post-Vietnam era. One problem was unrealistic requirements for the SAW, basically meeting the capabilities of a 7.62mm GPMG with a 5.56mm round.
While liked, almost always it was the LMG configuration used. Records, even anecdotes I got barely tell me the others. Stoner saw everyone was asking for an all in one and decided "Fuck it, here's the all in one to end all in ones".
It begs the question what if Stoner, before or after, presented his later creation, a simplified version with only the LMG configuration. Then complains about overcomplication would be diminished.
@@claytonmachine12m60 was pretty cheap to make tho
My dad once told me a story about a guy at AMF (American Machine and Foundry) who was the only employee allowed to have a bottle of whiskey with him at work. Every so often he would walk into the engineer's office with a bunch of designs under his arm for some new gadget he had invented. No engineering degree, and little formal education. He was German.
Legend, pure legend... Eugene Stoner.
now I wonder if the new 6.8mm rifle program is a similar shellgame.
Just listening to his experience going from a shop dude to a designer makes me so happy.
I really feel related to his story. Except in the beginning. I always have great ideas, methods, or technology based adjustments for life. Even a few firearm ideas bouncing around. Yet never a team or funding to see them through. I enjoyed learning how he managed to get through this problem. Because it pains me to see other people eventually come to the same conclusions of a solution and put out things that are massive success. While I sit knowing I could have had it out years prior. Its demoralizing to see this happen so many times over the years, dozens of times.
Like I keep reading my personality is common among ceo's and creative thinkers. But they have people to take over for their shortcomings in thinking. Hearing Stoner's perspective how creative mechanical minds just never get their chance. Just feels like hearing my life summarized in a way I could never verbally present. The pain and amazement is awakening as it is depressing.
You can really feel his frustration with the bureaucratic inertia of the big army.
AS ANY MARINE ALREADY KNOWS,ARMY PROCUREMENT IS ONE GIANT CLUSTER-FUK
Man this design had such potential... imagine if it could've had 15-20 years of military use/development! I bet the 249's would've been ditched by the late 90's 😁
Agree. Maybe if the Stoner 63 material and production method is modernized with modern material amd CNC machining, we will see similar design concept like the KAC LMG in late 90.
@@ivankovchannel0172 you do though. The KAC LMG, which turned into the LAMG. He even brings up the KAC for a little bit in this interview. Because he was the designer of it.
Common parts..thank you!
Man this is oddly inspiring
Im happy some one had the thought to put all this history on tape.
Time stamp 39:00 Very similar to Bill Wilson starting out building wrist watches for his Father..
Stoner ~Quote: "After working on such small machines, making a gun part is really no big deal" For them maybe!!
We are blessed to have such Genius in America to bring us these awesome toys to play with!!
Being a AR fan, I figured it would be a good idea to listen to the man himself and have learned alot from the first four I've watched.
Thank you for posting this, priceless knowledge and experience
Man, imagine if Mr. Stoner were alive today with 3D printing and more advanced computerized/CNC manufacturing...
I remember an interview with Jesse The Body Ventura saying the Stoner 63 and a backpack full of ammunition was the best weapon system ever made. He said it gave every psychopath in his Navy Seal squad overwhelming fire superiority, was highly reliable in 100% humidity, and offered unsurpassed role flexibility in missions at short notice. Fkin army penpushers!
where is the interview plz
what a story... everyone should see this interview... Incredible man .. incredible story
Imagine how bad Army was back then and times that by 10 to now! It’s completely nuts!
Great content
There is a place up in Nevada where you can rent an old SR63, and that is one slickest and smoothest firing machine guns ever made.
Very wise words, I've come up the same way as a field engineer
30 years ago is speaks of CNC machining.
What a find!, thanks for posting along with the other Stoner tapes.
This is the real baby of Eugene Stoner.
I ABSOLUTELY LOVED THE XM16-E1....LIGHT WEIGHT NO 3RND BURST AND CLEANING KITS
SOME MORONS WOULD USE THE FLASH SUPRESSOR AS A WIRE CUTTER , SO IT HAD TO BE REDESIGNED AND OFTEN IN COUNTRY THE SWEAT OF YOUR HANDS WOULD CORRODE THE RECIEVER TO THE POINT WHERE IT WOULD HAVE HOLES , AND SOMETIMES YOU WOULD HIT A BRANCH OR SOMETHING AND DUE TO THE FACT THAT THERE WAS NO FENCE AROUND THE MAGAZINE RELEASE BUTTON YOU WOULD DROP A MAG UNAWARE UNTIL YOU GOT INTO A FIRE FIGHT, ALWAYS CARRIED EXTRA MAGS JUST IN CASE .
Stoner iconic ar15 and ar10 is one of the best semi auto rifles ever. This systems is dominate in the civil market and this say something. Dont understand US army play with SCAR and SPIRE rifles - it cost a lot of money and DO NOT have a real advantage over AR platform.
The SCAR was never tested by the US Army. Only SOCOM evaluated the SCAR, and the Seals used them very briefly until they ditched them. Delta used the 416, and never cared to even bother with the SCAR. The plastic stock for the SCAR always broke, the magazines were bad, and the harmonics of the rifle would damage most scopes or red dots, only the Elcan was tough enough to be used.
Awesome video!
thanks for the nice work-
weird that his projects were often sabotaged
Fascinating man great stories 👌🏼
Thanks for the gear!
This is a really cool video just because he talks about the type of person who can do stuff like this. Scott Adams did an episode of Dilbert called "The Knack" that sums it up pretty well. As a pesron with such understanding, I appreciate what he talks about. I would love to have had a few hours of Mr. Stoners time. I bet that would have been a deep rabbit hole. It's great he kept chasing the dream and over came his obstacles to get where he did.
Now and again, I get to talk to Mark Serbu via forum. I feel he's really under appreciated in the design world honestly. The guy is amazing, and the conversations he has are absolutely wild.
I would say that arguably the most under appreciated designer of guns compared to what he does today is Kellgren. I don't necessarily think he gets implementation right consistently, but there is absolutely no arguments that his concepts set trends within the industry. Look at how many guns S&W has released recently that you look at what he's done and scratch your head about where they got the idea from.
Closest I’ll get is my Robinson M96 Recon but I still love it.
Congratulations 👏 those gems are harder to find and more expensive than ever! but unless Reed Knights warehouse full of registered 63's ever gets on the NFA market that's the closest even people with extra deep pockets can get! Unless you own a machine gun rental place or museum you really shouldn't own more than 5 Stoner 63's... Knights has a warehouse full of registered 63's that aren't on display in thier museum 🤨 he artificially inflates the 63 market worse than diamond companies because of his hoarding 😆
I wish Gene Stoner was still alive, especially if he could deliver the "Hot vs. Crazy matrix on women" matrix on women...if anyone here has seen it, he would be the ultimate!!
Where can I learn more about this?
The Stoner 63A sells for around $70,000 now! This man was simply a genius, i cant believe the Army screwed Eugene over on the Stoner 63 family of guns.
AMERICA STRONG
STAY FREE
LONG LIVE THE REPUBLIC
...........It literally only sells for that much because they are all pre 86 transferable machine guns. And there aren't very many of them. And even he said the 63 has some drastic problems with hindsight, especially in manufacturing.
@@claytonmachine12 What drastic problems in manufacturing??
@hairydogstail same problem as the M60. Lightweight reciever statts to fail and is considered a wear part. On top of the 63 being an overcomplicated mess for the Military. The only ones who picked it up in the DOD only picked the LMG variants. Since as a rifle it offered nothing the M16 couldn't do. Amd giving grunts a gun you can modify like that is a bad idea as they'll lose parts (I'm a soldier, the amount of soldiers who know nothing about their firearm would surprise you) now they didn't STOP developing the Stoner 63. It still lives on. As the LAMG. If stoner had built it as a dedicated LMG from the get go we would probably be using it instead of the SAW.
@@claytonmachine12 Interesting, thank you for the reply...
Stoner basically invented the modern method of making weapon families. In which we see every company copying that idea now when they present a new platform. Ahead of his time and didnt get the deserved credit.
Gene just described Mikhail and he really listened when the reporter asked about the tank commander's similar trajectory.
Jim Sullivan is a genius.
A lot of talent that was ignored by an unappreciative military bureaucracy..
I didn’t know about the folding carbine version.
Just think of how much of the world has suffered because some potential genius or brilliant tinkerers dont have a degree to get into industry now. Can't afford school, work a normal job and just tinker at home. During/post WW2, we knew what mattered, skill and ability!
It’s funny how in this day and age everybody wants the ar15 to be a tack driver which it can be a it’s the right barrels but that’s not what it was designed for! Stoner had it figured out for reliability really smart man!
All the significant gun designs is the last 150 years have not been designed by engineers.
I know who misunderstood truly creative people are.
They don’t think outside the box- they can’t find the box…
Politics, greed, back stabbing, egos, MONEY.
Meanwhile the soldier on the ground - expendable 💔👎☮️🇺🇲😢
The last American gun genius!!!🇺🇸❤️
Well, can't sleep on Bill Ruger no matter what he said to Congress
@@reallyhappenings5597 What innovative products did Bill Ruger ever design?
Nr 1
@@boomerisadog3899, most important was his widespread use casting in an era when it was all about forgings. The process reduced cost and continues to make for exceptionally strong firearms.
Individually the Standard .22 pistol, 10/22, Mini-14, and Deerstalker .44 carbine were also innovative in many ways.
@@Chilly_Billy how was the mini 14 innovative? it's an objectively worse AR-15
See ? Listen to the talent search for a gun designer. Only 1 out 10 had Degree's. It takes natural ability. Like an artist painter, sculpter . America's problem is letting the Marine Corp, Army, Navy, Air Force argue and back stab each other for credit and dicision making. And name the politicians that benefited from their influence. Name names.👎
God bless you Mr Stoner. You saved lives 💥💔💚☮️🇺🇲✌️
The Air Force procurement process was even crazier when it came to aircraft...arrogant, smug, short sighted officers decided the fate of whole weapon systems and the people who built them.
Was there a tape about the AR-18
There was not.
bummer@@bakelitenwaffles78
The 6MM ARC is quite a cartridge in 2024.
.
Jesus H Where did they get this JUNIOR COLLEGE video team? 🙄
Yuk, get someone else...oops too late