Former SDA Explains Adventist End Times Theology to A Christian Pastor
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- čas přidán 9. 07. 2024
- Dr. Josh Howard (Pastor of Grace Community Church in Battle Creek, Michigan) had me on his podcast (@eschatology_matters) to explain how Seventh-Day Adventist eschatology (end times theology) differs from orthodox branches of Christian eschatology. We discuss the Great Controversy Theme, 1844 and the Investigative Judgment, the Final Judgment, the Second Coming, and more.
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CHAPTERS:
0:00 - Introductory Remarks
0:50 - Origin Stories: Getting Started
3:58 - Exploring the Great Controversy Theme
7:00 - Eschatology Impacted by the Great Controversy
10:40 - Understanding the Great Controversy Theme
12:48 - Insights from 'The Great Controversy' Book
13:08 - Pre-Earth Origins: Controversy Theme
18:00 - Role of Satan in Sin: Controversy Theme
21:31 - Prevalence of Great Controversy Cosmology
24:30 - Examining the Third Angel’s Message
28:16 - Adventist Eschatology: Historicist Approach
32:55 - Overview of the Great Controversy
33:00 - Investigative Judgment Explained
34:10 - William Miller: The Great Disappointment
37:30 - Hiram Edson’s Visionary Experience
40:38 - Investigative Judgment: An Overview
43:14 - SDA Perspective: Investigative Judgment
48:44 - Investigative Judgment: Common Understandings
54:09 - Investigative Judgment Linked to Sanctification
56:10 - Relevance of God's Law Today
1:00:05 - Eschatological Milestones Discussion
1:01:05 - Anticipating Christ’s Bodily Return
1:03:35 - Theology of General Resurrection
1:05:22 - Final Judgment: Universal Accountability
1:06:50 - Investigative Judgment Revisited
1:10:25 - Annihilation of Satan: Final Events
1:12:05 - Supporting Myles Work
1:15:00 - Engaging with Answering Adventism
____________________________________________________
The Gospel of Jesus Christ:
Man has broken God’s Law (Romans 3:23; 1 John 1:8) and our sin has separated us from our Maker (Isaiah 59:2). In His grace, God entered into His own creation in the person of Jesus Christ (John 1:1-14; Col. 1:19), born of a virgin (Matt. 1:23), and lived a perfect and sinless life, fulfilling all the Law’s demands (2 Cor. 5:21; Matt. 5:17), on a mission by God the Father to save sinners from condemnation (John 3:16-18, 6:37-40). He paid the penalty for sin which is death (Romans 6:23) and bore the sins of His people in His body on a cross (1 Peter 2:24), making propitiation by His blood (Romans 3:25). He died, was buried, and resurrected in the same body He died in on the third day for our justification (1 Cor. 15, Romans 4:25; Luke 24:39). By a living faith (James 2:18) in the Person and Work of Jesus (Romans 10:9-10), God graciously declares a person righteous (Romans 4:5), they are reconciled to their Creator (Romans 5:10-11), sealed with the Holy Spirit (Eph. 1:13), and have peace with God (Romans 5:1). They are born again of the Spirit (1 John 5:1, Titus 3:5), adopted into His family (Eph. 4:5-7), and are granted eternal resurrection life in Jesus Christ (1 John 5:11), set free to do good works that please Him (Eph. 2:10; 1 John 2:3-4). Jesus will physically return one day to judge the living and the dead (1 Peter 4:5; Acts 24:15; John 5:24-5) but His people will be spared from the wrath to come (1 Thess. 1:10) to dwell in union with God forever (Rev. 21:3).
#eschatology #endtimes #adventism #adventistchurch #seventhdayadventist #seventhdayadventistchurch #sda #sdachurch #ellengwhite #thegospelofjesuschrist #doctrinematters #christiantheology #apologetics #theology #reformedtheology #protestant #eschatologymatters - Zábava
I am a preacher's daughter raised in the 50's and you are entirely correct in your interpretation of sda doctrine. I was taught it in all the little private schools I attended and 3-week tent meetings 2 or 3 times a year. I have so much ptsd from my childhood that I am in therapy now for trauma at the age of 72. I rejected most of the doctrines in my 20's, but the emotional pain has left me with intense feelings of fear and abandonment.
As a Christian, I can't pick and choose what to believe in the bible, but with denominations, I can. I can say with confidence that all denominations have doctrines that I would find unbiblical. Look up any church, and you will find detractors. The best thing to do is stick with the bible. God sent an angel to encourage me one night about 7 or 8 years ago, when I repented over getting into Eastern religion paraphernalia. The Angel said, "His pleasure is in His word"
His voice sounded like the actor Peter Cushing, but much stronger. This only happened once and may never happen again. The angel never told me what church i should go to. I believe the Holy Spirit works wherever there is a sincere believer willing to love the bible. He will lead us into all truth, not mere humans. Stick with God’s word! Amen!
but Jesus says he has a church
re 12 is the story of the church
those who cone out after the 1260 years Jesus says
they keep commandments contrary to modern christians that say there is no law
they keep the Sabbath co teary to modern christians who celebrate the satanic Sunday holiday
they preach the 3 angels and the sanctuary massage
@@earthlastdaybiblechannel
So your god did told you to follow a WORK BASED salvation system?
Hmmm, now that is interesting
@@Mfield111
O really, will you be so kind amd sgow us all what statements did I twist and what are the correct version according to you.
Come on, we all need a good laugh, I am waiting.
@@Mfield111
No moron, that was not what I did asked from you, you are a lying b!tch and now you trying to deflect the subject with more of your Hogwash.
Speak up of what I have twisted according to you, come on, grow a spine for once or accept the fact that you are a fake just as your cult.
@@Mfield111
So did the PARROT part of your brain run out of answers or what can be the reason that you refused to answer a simple question?
I did expected much better from someone who claimed that he/she knows what is the truth, you are a disgrace for yourself with your demonic behavior accusing other people falsely. Shame on you.
I would say this is the best way I've ever heard the SDA Theology explained. You articulate yourself so well. It's crazy how perfectly you explained the gradual indoctrination infused with Ellen G White teachings, in this case your specifying the Great Controversy Theme. It's taught through Sabbath school lessons, Revelation Teachings (such as Camp Kulaqua summer camp how I was taught) Friday nights services, her many books, through magazines/publications like Amazing Facts, Pacific Press, ABC book stores etc.
Think about it the focus is not for you to read the bible on it's own. The purpose is to supplement all of your reading with SDA-published materials to help you understand the Bible all with Ellen G White interwoven through everything. Sounds very much very much like a cult.
My sister the great controversy theme is seen everywhere in Scripture.
I was waiting to hear a Bible verse that contradicts the straight line of truth my brother Miles has described as SDA doctrine. So you just don't agree with them because you don't like them?
@@MAGWARO1the Great Controversy sounds extremely convincing but in Reality it is a Christian Fictional Novel.
EGW wanted people to believe it was a accurate Prophetic book but there is absolutely nothing Prophetic about it whatsoever. 🙂
@@MAGWARO1 The founder of adventism is William miller he was a Freemason. Part of an ancient secret society that still exists today. Mormonism, and Jehovah’s Witness founders are free masons as well. And these 3 big religions were created in the 1800’s coincidentally?
@@MAGWARO1 I'm a former SDA so you are not going to convince me otherwise. I have studied this in great detail just like Myles.
@@Drowning_Girl no true Adventist can leave the church. You were a faker!
Currently a member of SDA Church (15 years+) but I have never really been totally convinced about Ellen White and/or the Investigative judgement, I was never actually told anything about it when I first joined the church or maybe I just didn't fully understand it.
For the last couple of years I've been praying for God to give me discernment between truth and error as I read/study religious writings by men/women especially the SDA Quarterly Bible Studies, Ellen White's writings etc.. as well as other NON-SDA Christian writers materials.
I have been doing more research into Ellen White and finding many inconsistencies, contradicting the Bible and failed prophecies by her. Now I am praying for wisdom to know what to do next. I find it ironic that SDA uses Rev. 20 since it actually debunks the Investigative Judgement, it is only the DEAD that are judged by their works Rev. 20:12 God is "God of the living Not of the dead Mark" 12:27 Though we do "appear before the Judgement seat of Christ" 2 Corinthians 5:10-11 Christians are "saved by Grace through Faith" Eph. 2:8 and we "Pass from death into life" John 5:24 Please pray for me to find GOD's REAL TRUTH? Thanks for your work it has been an eye opener for me.
We are praying!
get away from that Church.... Go to the Holy Orthodox Church and you will find your answers there. Churches that just teach end times stuff isn't about salvation. They teach a false comfort and most aren't saved that are worried about end times events. They think its easier to just not accept the mark to enter heaven. Its far more difficult than that.
take your bible ,and read 2 corinthians 5:10 and romans 14:10 and ecclesiastic s 3:17 .You will recognise the future TENSE in those readings of saints coming before judgement seat .the event is future to Pauls time . Paul is saying BELIEVERS WILL APEAR BEFORE JUDGEMENT SEAT of christ..... for we all ( τοὺς πάντας is emphatic, not only Paul who has been speaking of himself as ἡμεῖς , but “all of us” must be made manifest /"appear” . the Day of Judgment is to be a day when men’s characters shall be made patent to the world, and to themselves, as they have always been to God. ...BOTH RIGHTEOUS AND WICKED WILL APEAR before judgment seat ....at different times ! ...ecclesiastics 3:17 I said to myself,
“God will bring into judgment
both the righteous and the wicked,
for there will be a time for every activity,
a time to judge every deed.”
This is no small matter! the wicked are judged post millennium as shown in revelation 20
there's a time for judgment of the righteous and judgement of the wicked .Its not determined by you tube preachers of ex adventist or adventists .Its there in God s timeline and readers recognise it
Christian myles cannot tell you why Paul I telling believers in Corinth and believers in Rome about a future judgement ?
Neither can myles tell you why Christians need a legal process in Daniel 7 to receive the kingdom way after the cross !
Christian Myles cannot tell you why Passover and day of atonement were 7 months apart
sin solution by God requires this process .....
How a sinner was saved in the sanctuary service .the sinner brought to the temple a sin offering ,the sinner places their hands onto the substitute and confess their sin .tHEY ARE GIVEN A KNIFE TO KILL the lamb they brought as sin offering
. By his own hand the animal was then slain, and the blood was carried by the priest into the holy place and sprinkled before the veil, behind which was the ark containing the law that the sinner had transgressed. By this ceremony the sin was, through the blood, transferred in figure to the sanctuary. In some cases the blood was not taken into the holy place; but the flesh was then to be eaten by the priest, as Moses directed the sons of Aaron, saying, “God hath given it you to bear the iniquity of the congregation.” Leviticus 10:17.* Both ceremonies alike symbolized the transfer of the sin from the penitent to the sanctuary.
If the sanctuary did not exist we are allowed to say the story of salvation ends with altar of burnt offering ,but the problem is the sanctuary exists as the destination of the blood .
The sanctuary with holy place and most holy place has part two and part three OF CHRIST MINISTRY
It is not church prescribed ,neither is it man made…In our anger and differences we have thrown away the elaborate details about the plan of salvation .The plan never ended at Calvary !!!Calvary ensures that all other expected landmarks take place .Without calvary being successful everything falls apart
Without successful calvary Christ as our Passover (death ,burial, resurrection) THERE IS NO PENTECOST
Without successful calvary THERE IS no event which fulfils feast of trumpets
Without successful calvary There is no day of atonement event
Without successful calvary there is no fulfilment of feast of tabernacles
Passover ,pentecost, Feast of trumpets ,day of atonement ,and feast of tabernacles are dealing with sin and the eventual dwelling of God s people with God face to face is because Ella the have taken place
WE ALL AGREE WE HAVE NOT GONE TO HEAVEN!WE HAVE NOT DWELT WITH GOD FACE TO FACE in the antitypical FEAST OF TABERNACLES
Why did not everything end by AD31 after Passover ?Why are we still here if everything was supposed to end by AD31?
WHY DID JESUS DO THIS ……11But when Christ came as high priest of the good things that have come, He went through the greater and more perfect tabernacle that is not made by hands and is not a part of this creation. 12He did not enter by the blood of goats and calves, but He entered the Holy Place once for all by His own blood, thus securing eternal redemption.
Christ did not carry a bowl of blood but in figurative language he did !!!
1 Peter 2:24
“He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed.”
the blood of calvary was carried into the heavens figuratively .....and we are still transferring our sins to him figuratively ...he entered heaven not with the blood of goats and bulls but with his own blood !
passover is not the end of the story .we have to go through the whole process until feast of tabernacles is fulfilled ...Part 2 coming
Christ was the victim at CALVARY and then He is also the high priest who officiate over his own blood .Why does He still needs a sanctuary IN HEAVEN ?
Hebrews 8. We do have such a high priest, who sat down at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in heaven, 2 and who serves in the sanctuary, the true tabernacle set up by the Lord, not by a mere human being.
Why was a sanctuary needed ?iTS bECAUSE GOD S PLAN OF SALVATION WAS NOT JUST CALVARY ,it involved an elaborate process detailed in the sanctuary ,please note Without calvary being successful everything falls apart but with Calvary being successful everything must be fulfilled as written
Exodus 25:40
40 “Be sure that you make everything according to the pattern I have shown you here on the mountain. 40 Study the design you were given on the mountain and make everything accordingly.
Our salvation details are in the pattern shown to Moses .we should study the design FIRST GIVEN TO THE JEW…we ignore Jewish revelation at our own PERIL!...they may not get everything right ....but but but Romans 1:16 Paul writes, “I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God that brings salvation to everyone who believes: first to the Jew, then to the Gentile.” The gospel is intended for all people. But, chronologically, the gospel message was first revealed to the Jewish people before it was revealed to the Gentiles (non-Jewish people)...DONT IGNORE sanctuary imagery given to jews ..Its not Adventist!
If we think deeply ,why do we need a sanctuary if the outer court burnt offering was the end?
Why does the sanctuary need to be cleansed ?as detailed 7 months after Passover
Jewish source
The main biblical text that describes the Yom Kippur ritual is Lev 16, which uses Hebrew terms related to kippur sixteen times, most often in reference to parts of the tabernacle, the pre-temple sanctuary imagined to have accompanied the Israelites in their forty-year wilderness journey. It is the tabernacle, or parts of it, such as the sacrificial altar or the holy of holies-the innermost part of the tabernacle-which is kippur-ed according to most verses of the chapter. In other words, the altar absorbs certain sins of the Israelites, and the main function of Yom Kippur is to cleanse these sins by using the blood of a purification offering (sometimes called a “sin offering”) as a type of ritual detergent. Leviticus 16 describes in detail this bloody ritual, at which the high priest Aaron or his descendants officiate; it makes the tabernacle (or later temple) ritually clean, and thus God is willing to reside there among Israel. The biblical term yom kippurim is thus best translated as “the day of purgation,” and specifically refers to the purgation or cleansing of sins from the tabernacle or temple
So sins did enter and were kept in the temple right?…levitucs 16 says so……15 “He shall then slaughter the goat for the sin offering for the people and take its blood behind the curtain and do with it as he did with the bull’s blood: He shall sprinkle it on the atonement cover and in front of it.16 In this way he will make atonement for the Most Holy Place because of the uncleanness and rebellion of the Israelites, whatever their sins have been. He is to do the same for the tent of meeting, which is among them in the midst of their uncleanness.
20 “When Aaron has finished making atonement for the Most Holy Place, the tent of meeting and the altar, he shall bring forward the live goat. 21 He is to lay both hands on the head of the live goat and confess over it all the wickedness and rebellion of the Israelites-all their sins-and put them on the goat’s head. He shall send the goat away into the wilderness in the care of someone appointed for the task. 22 The goat will carry on itself all their sins to a remote place; and the man shall release it in the wilderness.
As long as there is blood in temple it means we have memory of the sin committed.but when cleansed then that record is gone…..
The vehicle that takes blood into the sanctuary is high priest .the person who cleanses the sanctuary is the high priest and removes sin from sanctuary
Sadly Passover and day of atonement does not happen on same day!!!
The final destination of sin is the goat of azazel for those who have confessed their sins and others perish with their own sins
Thats how sin is dealt with !!!!
When Christ ascended to heaven that was after calvary .when he comes back it means the cleansing of the sanctuary has been completed .if Christ is goat of azazel then he must be sent into the wilderness at second coming …which makes no sense
why was blood transferred into the sanctuary ? Tells us Myles ?if the dealing with sin was just the altar of burnt offering why the blood taken into the sanctuary ?
and then seven months later after passover why was a sin offering needed to CLEANSE THE SANCTUARY ?
as we confess our sins right now our sins are transferred in figure where ?
..Our sins are placed upon the lamb /or high PRIEST Christ who officiates over his own blood
Our sins are transferred to the sanctuary in heaven just as the earthly service had blood transferred to the sanctuary
The cleansing service is the FINAL ACT in the plan of salvation before we enter into antitypical feats of tabernacle s
It does not belittle the cross ,its just that God has set timelines for these events...and Daniel 8 "14 does point to that final ACT before saints are given the kingdom .jEWS understood day of atonement as judgement day .the day of atonement was for believers not non believers !!!!and those Israelites who were not compliant were CUT off from Israel ..their names were removed from the books of Israel !
Read: *Romans 10:4.* Galatians 5:4. and *Romans 11:8.* Then answer the question: "Why was the book of Galatians written?" 😇
As someone who has grown up in Adventism, this guy knows what he's talking about!
As an Adventist Christian I'm learning alittle from these video's. Shucks, when the microscope is pointed in your religious history I wonder what we will find.
I'm curious what 7th day adventists do with Ezekiel ch 38-39, the prophecy of the blossoming of the fig tree in Matthew,or the prophecy of the flying scroll in Zechariah?
I REALLY appreciate this. I never understood the importance of Ellen G White. My parents have raved about her for years. I don't see it. And this, is teaching me a lot to research. Thank you!
There is a video called "Ellen White attempts to change the calendar of God".
E S Calman was not evwn a karaite. That is easy to prove. He made contradictory statements. And seemed to keep a Samaritan calendar, NOT A karaite calendar
Fantastic, well-articulated exposé on the unique (and uniquely false and dangerous) heresies of SDA theology. I am married to a second generation Seventh-day Adventist, and have been studying SDA doctrines for 10 years now. I love my wife very much, but have experienced firsthand the frustration and futility of trying to help her see the undoubtedly satanic origins of these gospel-denying doctrines.
Myles, you are doing an incredibly important work, and doing it well. Bless you brother and please know that you have a true brother in California praying for you and your ministry. May God sustain you in this work.
I literally just left a Seventh Adventist Church now in Nigeria who is currently holding a two weeks program. I heard the investigated judgement preached and I felt this heavy fear come upon me and I left the meeting during the sermon. I've not seen that anywhere in the Bible. why do they believe that?
They are deceitful in their baptismal vows. They add "the spirit of prophecy" to the vows, but don't really explain that the spirit of prophecy refers to Ellen White, and whenever you hear the phrase "testimonies to the church", it refers to her writings (a lot of which is plagiarized). So a person will accept the baptismal vows after having Bible studies, thinking it's in the name of the Father and the Son and the holy spirit. But then find out (maybe not immediately after) they have also accepted a false prophetess. Trying to be a Christian in adventism without reading Ellen White is almost impossible.
Absolutely true. First hand witness ✋
it's like saying you have the right to be disobedient to Gods messenger does it make sense
@@earthlastdaybiblechannel Telling a group of people that some present would not see death before Christ returns is God's messenger? Having "assistants" do your writing is God's messenger? Proven plagiarism is God's messenger?
@@earthlastdaybiblechannel you're the disobedient antichrist.
1st Tim. 11 the woman is to learn in silence and ask her husband to teach her.
1st Tim. 12 never usurp a man's authority. You give a women absolute authority over interpretation and prophecy.
You know she had many failed prophecies yet you lie to us and call her the "spirit of prophecy".
JESUS said "kill and eat" all things are made clean to eat. You disobey this command.
Scripture says judge no one in drink, meat, holy day, new moon or "sabbaths" , you place the mark of the beast on believers and condemn them to fire.
You son are a hypocrite, CHRIST says take the log from your own eye then you can deal with the splinter in ours.
I see a lot of distortion of the word with SDA
I always ask SDA followers, why was the book of Galatians written? Also, what is the meaning of Sabbath? They believe it means "Saturday". They are more concerned about when the *sun* sets, then what *Jesus Christ* did on the cross. Their focus is on the sun and the 'Law', than on the *Son* and God's Love. What does *Romans 10:4* means? Why is it written: *Galatians 5:4?* Who attacked and why were the early 'Christians' persecuted? _Answer:_ The Law and 'Sabbath' Keepers. 😇 *Romans 11:8.*
“The everlasting Candle shineth in its naked glory. Behold how it has consumed every mortal veil. O ye moth-like lovers of His light! Brave every danger and consecrate your souls to its consuming flame.” That flame is love of Christ for all people, including Adventists.
Great discussion. I wish that the other gentleman had used words that lay folk could understand without a dictionary. But a great video. Good job Myles!
Happy to decrypt any words you might have been hung up on.
Pastor Josh has a doctorate in theology so I know it was a little high brow. 😅
@@answeringadventism . No, because you always are so excellent in explaining things that I was able to catch on, Lol! Thanks again. You do a great job in breaking this down. Keep up the good work!
@@answeringadventism All her life ellen white had encountered opposition, antagonism, and criticism in all shapes and forms from the trivial to the serious. She was quoted and misquoted, interpreted and misinterpreted. But the value of her words was evidenced in schools, sanitariums, and churches all over the world. WV 491.3
Bitter truth u are fulfilling prophecy
@@bigirwaraymond7171 Its good that Myles is fulfilling prophecy...cuz Ellen never did 🙄😂😂😂
@@matthewtoves8919 Prophets don't *"fulfill"* prophecy - they *declare* it. Words mean things - but the words of a fool are of little importance.
I was never read the baptisimal vows.... Starting to understand why
Sad that Adventism substitutes the Great Controversy theme over the God is Love theme.
Their God the Father is lacking in Love and Wisdom if he had to be convinced over three attempts to put the plan of Salvation with Christ as the Lamb, into operation.
“Sorrow filled Heaven, as it was realized that man was lost, and the world that God created was to be filled with mortals doomed to misery, sickness, and death, and there was no way of escape for the offender. The whole family of Adam must die. I saw the lovely Jesus, and beheld an expression of sympathy and sorrow upon his countenance. Soon I saw him approach the exceeding bright light which enshrouded the Father. Said my accompanying angel, He is in close converse with his Father. The anxiety of the angels seemed to be intense while Jesus was communing with his Father. Three times he was shut in by the glorious light about the Father, and the third time he came from the Father his person could be seen. His countenance was calm, free from all perplexity and trouble, and shone with benevolence and loveliness, such as words cannot express. He then made known to the angelic host that a way of escape had been made for lost man. He told them that he had been pleading with his Father, and had offered to give his life a ransom, and take the sentence of death upon himself, that through him man might find pardon; that through the merits of his blood, and obedience to the law of God, they could have the favor of God, and be brought into the beautiful garden, and eat of the fruit of the tree of life.”-The Spirit of Prophecy, Vol. I, pg. 45 (1sp 45.1)
Through the blood of Christ AND THE LAW man can find favor with God. Blood of Christ isn’t enough.
@Answering Adventism Wow 😮
She was a great storyteller but how does this line up with scripture?
Zechariah 2, from verse 8 God speaks of himself in the third person, but in her writings she speaks of them as though they are totally seperate beings.
Zechariah 2:10 - “Shout and be glad, Daughter Zion. For I am coming, and I will live among you,” declares the Lord.
Zechariah 2:13 "Be still before the Lord, all mankind, because he has roused HIMSELF from his holy dwelling.”
My heart is so burdened for my family stuck in this, all I can do is pray for them🙏
@@answeringadventism Thank you.
Amazing how she is able to make it seem so beautiful and sweet but subtly is downgrading the Godhead, making the Father in a way of lesser character than Christ.
The last sentence is terrifying in its mixture of truth and demonic heresy.
@@nixluvsjesus Great scriptures.
Sorry to hear about your family trapped in SDA.
Keep praying and showing that God is Love.
The great controversy is ended. Sin and sinners are no more. The entire universe is clean. One pulse of harmony and gladness beats through the vast creation. From Him who created all, flow life and light and gladness, throughout the realms of illimitable space. From the minutest atom to the greatest world, all things, animate and inanimate, in their unshadowed beauty and perfect joy, declare that GOD IS LOVE. GC 678.3
Come to God with a sincere heart and put a serious study into His word and you too might be at risk of becoming an "Adventist" 😎
This presentation outlines a very traditional, and shall say, very conservative view, and fits aLast Generation Theology ( which claims that Christ will only come when the generation is "perfect").
Unfortunately this is close to the line being pushed by the General Coference of the SDA church.
There are however many Adventists who no longer buy into such things as the infallibility of Ellen White and don't regard her as the "red line" for interpretation. Similarly many now don't accept the significance of 1844 and the Investigate Judgment.
It would be good for this aspect of SDAs be pursued.
Hebrews 1 tells us there are no more prophets of old , how can that be dismissed by anyone?
A person has to ask themselves if a woman who never knew Jesus is worth following.
🕊️
Exactly. There was a faith once for all delivered to the Saints (Jude 1:3) And E.G.W. was NOT there when it was delivered.
@@theextreme7134 this comment right here! ❤
@@theextreme7134 Very true. WE are the Saints spoken of in Scripture and she wasn't with US. Imagine thinking only one Church is right and the only way to God.
Poor Adventists... 🧐
in 1844 all Sunday churches rejected Jesus and the first angels and became Babylon
@@theextreme7134 o j'eus says his end time church cones after 1260 years
he say they have the commandments the Sabbath a true prophet preach the 3 angels and the sanctuary
how much clearer could Jesus make it
Miles, you have a very good grasp of Adventist history, but you seem to think that many Adventist teachings are without biblical basis. Adventists have a strong Biblical basis for their beliefs, including their understanding of eschatology.
I'm curious what you make of the passage you referenced in 1 Corinthians 6 (I think this is the passage you were thinking of, although you said verse 13):
"2 Don’t you realize that someday we believers will judge the world? And since you are going to judge the world, can’t you decide even these little things among yourselves? 3 Don’t you realize that we will judge angels? So you should surely be able to resolve ordinary disputes in this life."
To what is Paul referring here?
The idea that God's people will see evidence about "the world" and "angels" and make judgements on these things doesn't seem out of line with scripture.
What is your take on the meaning of this passage?
So this is a common thing I point out regularly. Where in that pericope do you see anything about looking over what God did in the investigative judgment for 1000 years before he then pours out the executive judgment and all of this is to vindicate the character of God who is essentially on trial because of accusations from Satan?
SDAs find general thematic verses in scripture and then bring to them a bunch of details not found in the Bible that come from the Great Controversy Theme.
There has been lots of banter on that verse and it depends on a number of other beliefs one has that’s a little too much to get into in a comment.
But no, that doesn’t validate or give a biblical basis for a truckload of stuff not found in the text to then be hitched to a single verse. This is a common move on the SDA church’s part. They do this with “war in heaven,” too, and countless other places.
Miles, I never heard you quote from the Bible end time events . Give the people the Bible perspective of end time events . So i will do in all scripture defending the great Converse theme.
PERGUNTA PARA O ADVENTISTA RESPONDER.
SE O HOMEM PODE CUMPRIR A LEI DOS DEZ MANDAMENTOS, PORQUE DEUS MANDOU FAZER OS SACRIFÍCIOS ?
We humans have developed a quantum computer and angels still continue to use books.
Adventists claiming to be historicist is like me only being able to change a tire and calling myself a mechanic. Daniel 9 is the only thing they have in common with historicism. The rest is futurism and idealism at best
Yes, I’ve told many people that historicists take great umbrage with SDAs trying to claim to be historicists because, as per usual, this is them riding coattails of others to try and appear legitimate.
Sincere question.
Where does Adventism depart from Historicism?
@@thenowchurch6419 everything besides Daniel 9. What other parts did they have in common
@thenowchurch you probably have never read any other historicist books but I would recommend Henry gratton Guinness or E. B Elliot
@@chrislucastheprotestantview I have not done an exhaustive study but I think Historicism is taking apocalyptic scripture like Daniel and Revelation and interpreting it over the span of Church History, as opposed to interpeting it literally and in original context.
For example many Evangelical groups as well as Adventists take Revelation chapters 2 and 3 as referring not just to the actual churches addressed by Christ but to historical stages of the Church with Laodicea being the Church in the Last Days.
By proof texting you mean like Jesus said " it is written"?
I have always been curious... When one comes out of a false system of belief, do you question everything as a way to safeguard yourself. Upon what basis does one conclude tht the bible is the word of God?
No, because they only reason I believe is because God was the first mover. He grants faith to believe, the repentance to preserver, and the grace to be sustained.
It isn’t leaning in one’s own doings or looking internally for security. Being born again is a real experience with real realities and real effects. It isn’t just some hopefully wishing that what I believe is correct, hoping I made the right decision.
There are tons of external realities to bolster my faith (the church, the sacraments, historical evidence of Jesus and His resurrection, etc.), but ultimately it’s rooted in the Holy Spirit bearing witness with my spirit that I am a child of God and that nothing can thwart that.
As for the historicity of scripture and realizability, that’s a much deeper discussion that’s too deep to type in comments. But people like Dan Wallace, Michael Kruger and others have done incredible work in the realm of textual criticism, the biblical manuscript tradition, it’s reliability, what that looks like, etc.
All of this stuff compounded upon itself bears quite the fortress. Being a Christian isn’t blind faith hoping you made the right choice. It’s being known by the True God who reveals himself to people by regenerating them, speaking to them in His Word, and nurturing them weekly through the preaching of His Word and in the Lord’s Supper.
Basically, it would be like asking “on what basis do you know that your wife is real?” Well because I interact with her, we have a relationship. It isn’t obviously a total 1:1, but I think that makes the point.
@@answeringadventism all of those claims you've made has its equivalent also in Islam. For every claim you've offered to bolster your faith, a Muslim has the same claim.... Yet we have the truth and they are in error. Now that i have escaped the clutches of so called inspired writings, im questioning everything now. In a lot of instances we use the bible to verify the claims of the bible, which is a circular argument. This is where my journey has led me, and it has landed me in a world of contradictions. Eg, i no longer believe tht graves were opened at the resurrection. No serious scholar does incl Dale Allison. If one if providing a critique for Adventism... And rightly so, one must ensure their own foundation is strong.
come out of Babylon the Sunday churches brother Jesus says he will sent the seven last plagues for doing exactly what Myles is doing
rejecting the first angels and fallong into darkness
@@earthlastdaybiblechannel
_rejecting the first angels_
Please don't panic, most of the people in this comment section did reject the SDA angels gospel, for we have Jesus and He is more than we will ever need.
@Mr Wolley Where does Islam claim that the Holy Spirit is the ultimate witness that Islam and the Qu'ran is true? Where is the historical evidence for Muhammad being the Messiah, or his writings being reliable? If you search and find out the answer is "nowhere" to both questions, you're on the right track.
So according to SDA doctrine God actually needs man to secure heaven from future sin?
Adventist Pastors and members will benefit from learning Biblical theology from Dr Howard, he seems very intelligent, solid
no bedside ir is fallen Babylon theology from the out of hell
@@earthlastdaybiblechannel how is that? Did you know satan accused for no reason?
@@JamieElison He will at least meet JESUS will you?
@@rickhuntling7338 are you SDA?
@@JamieElison if you say Ellen G White is a prophetess your a liar. If you say your baby butchering church is keeping all the commandments your a liar. If you say EGW's writtings are inspired your a liar. If you say us worshiping oue GOD and SAVIOR on the 1st day is a sin your a liar. If you say the thief on the cross was not taken to Abraham's bosom "TODAY" your a 'liar. If you call youself a spritual Jew your a liar. Have you said or believe any of these things? If yes your a liar
Is it adventists that teach heavenly sanctuary or the Bible there is a sanctuary in heaven?
Its not a deception. Its written in the Bible and only the True Church the SDA can interpret it. They have the Spirit of Prophecy and the Testimony of Jesus. If you allow the HS to speak to you then you will understand God wants you to understand. Unless you are skeptic and close minded you can't understand it.
So I guess the 4 different times EGW predicted the end of the world she was just joking around? 🙄
@@matthewtoves8919 She will not become one of the prolific American writer if she is not real messenger feom God. I encourage you to try and read her writings before you judge her. Remember the saying, "Never judge the book by its cover." Try to read it first with humility and fervent prayer from God.May God bless you.
@@mervinimperio5852 So failed prophecy is okay because she became a 'prolific writer'? So I guess Stephen King is a prophet 😂
Failed prophecy, plagiarized writings, but most damning of all is her own claim to authority...
Read testimonies volume 5 pg. 66 and 67. If you disregard or cast doubt on her writings you are rebelling against God. You are like Korah in the rebllion and she is like Moses...absolutely heretical.
YOU my friend need to make a choice. Are you going to follow Christ or your false prophet?
@@matthewtoves8919
Adventist = Christianized satanism
@@MaryMartinez-lm5tv Im not good in prophecy because Im just mere follower of Christ. But you can read Revelation 19:10 that the True church has the Testimony of Jesus and its the "Spirit of Prophecy" its clearly stated and only the SDA has the "Spirit of Prophecy" given to an ordinary woman(Ellen G.White). Eventhough shes gone for a long time but her wirtings can bless and enlighten many people because of God's inspiration through her writings. Now I encourage you to read her writings before you judge her and the SDA belief. Im not surprise why many other sect attack the SDA as it is prophesied in Revelation 12:17. The False Doctrine is Upset against the True Church(SDA). So please read EGW writings before you judge and God bless you sister.
Funny how Adventism is just one of the few Protestant Christian movements who hasn't completely abandoned the scriptural beliefs of their founders .. 🤔
Uhh, what? LOL
Yes, they very much have. The founders were not "trinitarians." The SDA Church has abandoned all sorts of aspects of their pioneers.
@@answeringadventism Ok, there's your one example, can you expound or just throw out accusations?
As a former SDA, you would have a clear understanding of what a cult is, is that correct? Would you mind giving us, your audience, your definition of what a cult is, thanks?
Utilize our website. That’s why it exists: answeringadventism.com/is-seventh-day-adventism-christian-or-a-cult/
Genesis 2:16 KJV - And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
Genesis 2:17 KJV - But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.
Satan came along and told Eve
Genesis 3:4 KJV - And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:
This right here☝️ is the great controversy in a Nutshell.
Whom are you going to believe?
In Phil 3:18, the Apostle Paul was specifically speaking about the Judaizers as the Adventists and the Armstrongites.
Jesus Christ is only a name abused by the Adventist's and the Armstrongites *to teach Moses* (Acts 15:-16) . *The Adventist's and Armstrongites have simply *sorely abused and misused Christ's name to teach Sabbath keeping, something Christ nor the Apostles never taught!* The Apostle Paul condemns the Judaziers. Phil 3:18 *"For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:"*
your saying we can steal lie adultery ? that's crazy
1 jn 3 4 sin is the breaking
of the law
if there was no law there would be no sin
then everybody would go to heaven
@@earthlastdaybiblechannel Where did I say that? You are falsely accusing me. You commit sin all the time, the law has never stopped you from sinning, on the Sabbath day or any other day. You are such a hypocrite. Stop pretending about what you are!
The 10 commandments has never once stopped the Adventist and their like, from slandering and bearing a false witness against their neighbor, which is *murder from their hearts* *The truth is, the Adventist couldn't care less about morals, laws, the 10 commandments or being Christian* The Adventists have done *so much evil in the name of Sabbath keeping and the 10 commandments*
Gal 5:18 *But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are NOT under the law.*
Romans 8:2
For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death *Just to be clear, Jesus, the apostles nor the prophets taught Christians or Gentile nations to keep the Sabbath!! *The 10 commandments are for those, who do not have the Holy Spirit. And, just *MAYBE they won't murder their neighbor.* but, they probably will slander, commit adultery, covet and steal, because that's the way Pharisees are. And, they know they are NOT what they PRETEND to be to deceive the public and themselves. You all are as fake as a wooden nickel.
@@Mfield111 Polycarp was a Catholic Bishop.
@@Mfield111 *Rev. 18:20 and the Martyrdom of Polycarp proves Adventism..etc., is false*
Notice the quote below from 117AD. The Martyrdom of Polycarp (AD 117): Here's a direct quote
The *CHURCH* of God which sojourns at *Smyrna* (Rev. 2) , to the *CHURCH* of God sojourning in Philomelium, and to ALL the congregations of *the Holy and CATHOLIC CHURCH* in every place: Mercy, peace, and love from God the Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, be multiplied.
For, [Polycarp] having through patience overcome the unjust governor, and *thus acquired (the past tense) the crown of immortality*, *he NOW, WITH the apostles and all the righteous [in heaven], rejoicingly glorifies God, even the Father, and blesses our Lord Jesus Christ, the Saviour of our souls, the Governor of our bodies, and *the Shepherd of the *CATHOLIC CHURCH throughout the world* .[28] *(The placing of Polycarp's immortal soul in heaven after his martyrdom is exactly what we find in Revelation 18:20 with the Apostles and ALL the righteous)*
Notice how the author, says *Christ is the Shepherd of the Catholic Church THROUGHOUT THE WHOLE WORLD" In other words, the entire Christian world in 117 AD understood 2 things:
1.That Christ was the Shepherd of the Catholic Church and
2.The doctrine of the immortality of the soul and teaching of the righteous souls went to heaven after the death of the body was taught by Christ and the Church *throughout the whole world!*
Another Armstrong and Adventist heresy on soul sleep and annihilationism bites the dust.
@@Mfield111 You don't get to choose for me what is my concern.
So I have always been confused about the trinity. The way the bible speaks, and how the world interprets the trinity seems different. It seems like the bible DOES speak about the father and son as separate beings. Like when Jesus say's no man has seen the father. Or when the lady is asking Jesus if her sons can be at his side in heaven and Jesus replies "That is not mine to give" or at the cross where Jesus asks God why he has forsaken him. These verses always threw me off, and made me think Muslims and Judaism were on to something as far as Jesus not being God. So idk their version of the trinity seems to make more sense. I may be wrong, can you help me with this?
Have done so here in depth: czcams.com/users/livesDWYbfOuwng?feature=share
You do understand that when YHWH incarnated into a mortal human body He was limited in knowledge and ability and therefore needed to depend on the Father, His spiritual essence, just as we need to?
That is the source of 99% of the scriptures that make it appear that Christ is not God.
@@thenowchurch6419 yes I can see that, and it does explain 99% of the instances you talk about. However what about that 1% like the time he says things like in Matthew 20:23 “but to sit on my right hand, and on my left, is not mine to give, but it shall be given to them for whom it is prepared of my Father”
Or in Matthew 24:36 “But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.”
I’m not trying to stump anyone or anything these are just things I see that doesn’t make sense to me about the trinity. If they are not separate, why isn’t the left or right seat his to give? Is he not God? Or why doesn’t the son know the day and hour if they are one in the same. I feel like even the orthodox explanation of the Trinity is just as uncertain as any unorthodox interpretation, it’s almost like they just tried to over complicate a bunch of scripture to fit the description of a monotheistic God, to avoid the appearance of pantheism. It’s just how it looks to me, it doesn’t make sense.
@@rickybeee My answer to both of those verses is that neither whom is on Christ's right or left nor the day nor the hour are set in stone.
The key positions will be given to whoever are proven worthy to have them, not appointed by anyone.
The day and hour of the 2nd Coming in my view does have some dependence on what the saints, the body of Christ do and when we do it, so that technically the Father knows in the sense that He has and had full access to the potential and intentions of the future saints, while Christ in His mortal human body, did not.
Full disclosure, I am an Open Theist and a Simultaneous Modalist.
Iyesus Christ is the same YHWH who is Infinite but could not fully access that state in His mortal frame.
Grace and Peace.
@@thenowchurch6419 thank you for your insight. I think in the end no one really knows. Who’s to say which is correct? Modalism makes sense too with what we are given. Maybe we weren’t ever meant to know that answer. Maybe that wasn’t important for us to know the answer to? Maybe the being of GOD is just way above our mortal comprehension. I don’t think we have the clear evidence to say one doctrine is correct and the others are heresy. The only reason the trinity is so critical to Christian’s is to say they’re monotheistic, that their three versions of God are one being. Or else they’re just worshiping multiple Gods.
So we try to fit all of that in a doctrine that satisfies that criteria. One could be correct, or maybe it’s a combination of views. The truth is none of us know for certain, and it’s obvious when it comes to discussion on the Trinity. We’re trying to understand a being that created the universe in our little human comprehension.
Wouldn’t Adventism SDA be more of a product of Seventh month movement with Samuel s snow , rather than Millerism itself
In a sense, yes, but the foundation that Miller laid is still necessary for the Seventh Month Movement to exist. They built off of Millers “15 proofs”, his crazy prooftexting, etc.
@@answeringadventism this is the 2300 years propechy
Do you know this?
oct 22 comes from God
@@JamieElison no
they are actually years
I can show you the verse saying 1 day = 1 year
if you use day than the prophecy will not be fullfilled
@@JamieElison oh
You are incorrect
It was it fullfilled
I think you need to find the video from SDA about this 2300 years propechy
At the rate people are leaving Adventism there really may be only 144000 left by the time of the Great Tribulation....
What about "ta hagia" signifying holy place in Hebrews and "hagia hagion" signigying the most holy place, and Paul says that Christ entered into "ta hagia"?
This defense fails. Jesus entered into the presence of God, sat down, something the levitical priests never did because the work was never finished, where He rules and reigns until all of his enemies are made His footstool. That’s what was prophesied about the Messiahs kingdom. That’s exactly what He came and did. Accomplished redemption, entered back into His heavenly abode, sat on His throne as a reigning King.
Arguing if “ta hagia” only means “holy place” is only a sound argument if you assume a literal building in heaven with multiple apartments, etc. where Jesus is still dealing with sin and working. Which isn’t the case. The author of Hebrews tells you-he entered into heaven itself.
This is a bad argumentation that the SDA Church should give up. They’ve been trying to use this since the Des Ford controversy.
Oh my goodness....there is so much to unpack here...this is a house of cards...ummm, I'm sorry I have so many things and topics to challenge you on. I really think there is an element of self perception here, based on, maybe your personal past experience in your personal sphere which possibly is the forum that is holding your principle foundation to what everything you are basing your conclusions on is built over. And since there is much here so far that I can personally scrutinize and blow into the wind, like a house of cards, I'd actually have to write out an encyclopedia of counter to this analysis of everything this gentleman has said so far....quite astounding actually....bottom line is;
don't take one CZcams video or a single person's channel as the be-all/end-all, solid and stable, nothing can counter this because you have arrived...no....because like I said, I can take one deep breath......pooof...and this house of cards is done....over ...squashed....very easy to do 👍
@JamieElison
The story of most people's life....having no idea what is said, but will follow what feels good...everything is right from our own eyes and not the word of God 🙄
Wow! There's alot of similarities to JW in this and how the try to escape fallacies.
Now that I've taken a step back- ok, a giant leap back- from Adventism I can see so many red flags with the teachings and the GCT!
I can attest, the GCT is the governing paradigm to the religion and is taught to lay people through sabbath school, regular discussions, church services, etc.
Question... Myles, how do you think Philippians 2:9-10 should be understood?
"Because of this, God greatly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and on earth and under the earth" NASV
The strong's concordance definition of 'exhaulted' is;
"metaph. to exalt to the highest rank and power, raise to supreme majesty
to extol most highly
to be lifted up with pride, exalted beyond measure
to carry one's self loftily"
I know there are other verses as well, but this one stands out to me.
Im covering this passage in part 5 of the Adventist Jesus series.
This is referring to Jesus in his humanity. He didn’t have that until he incarnated. The supposed “exaltation of Jesus” to be made equal with His father in the GC narrative supposedly took place BEFORE humanity was created. Before Jesus incarnated. And it wasn’t as a man. It was as a being, separate from the Father, given authority and attributes (like omnipresence) that He didn’t possess from eternity past.
Not true. That isn’t Paul’s point in Philippians 2. Jesus is fully divine and possess total equality with the Father and the Holy Spirit and always has. As you’ll see in the coming video, Paul is referring to Jesus humbling himself and leaving his rightful estate and adding unto himself a human nature alongside His divine nature. It is as a man that Jesus was exalted in His keeping of the Law perfectly that He then returned ti the glory He had with the Father and the Spirit before the world began (John 17).
In essence, he returned to His rightful abode upon incarnating taking the throne back that was always rightfully His, but this time, with his human nature as well as His divine nature as the GodMan after fulfilling all of the Law and completing His work of redeeming creation.
He is the only man to be exalted to such a level. But in His divinity, that estate was always His. The person of Jesus Christ possess two natures-human and divine.
@@answeringadventism Thank you for your response, I'll check out the video. Your explanation makes perfect sense; the only way Jesus could be exalted is because he had stepped down into humanity. EGW claimed Christ was exalted pre-creation, but the Bible speaks of it post-calvary. The devil is so sly!
I never realized she taught that Jesus was a lesser being, a demigod of sorts. Lord have Mercy.
Thanks again!
you never understood the 3 angels then and all Sunday churches being the daughter's of Babylon
@@earthlastdaybiblechannel
If a denomination joined the ecumenical movement with Rome as the leader, do they also became a daughter of Babylon?
Well, your SDA cult just did that.
@@earthlastdaybiblechannel SDA's erroneously teach that the Papacy is Babylon. The problem with that is the Papacy didn't exist when John wrote his letter to the seven first century churches. The Papacy doesn't even get a mention anywhere in Scripture, neither does America. According to Christian Scholars Forum which is made up of Ex Graduates of Theology from SDA Universities, Babylon is Old Jerusalem and it's Apostate Judaism.
The SDA according to them, along with the RCC, the JW's, the Mormons also, are all daughters of Babylon.
See their Vid " Who is the Real Babylon". On CSF channel.
EGW i am convinced is not born again (born of God) and not filled by the Holy Spirit.
Don't matter how you twist or sugar code what you say, even if the adventist were wrong about Ellen G White, etc,,you can't never get away from the truth about the sabbath, you can't never get away from the truth of the state of the dead,,you can't never get away from the literal coming of Jesus Christ
The SDA considers themselves as the Remnant.
How can that be true when there are over 500 Sabbath Keeper Denominations?
I guess anyone can just Roll the Dice and pick whatever comes up. Now they have to prove that they are the Remnant amongst the other 500 Sabbath Keeper Denominations. Remember that all 500 have a different Theological Beliefs. And the same is true for all of Protestantism. Ponder that one.
They will say because those “sabbath keepers” don’t have the “identifying mark of the Remnant Church which is the “spirit of prophecy” manifested in the writings of Elle. g. white or the 3 Angels Messages”.
At the end of the day, their concept of sabbath isn’t enough. It’s the whole SDA system and it’s 7 pillars. That’s their “gospel”. If you don’t have that, you don’t have the truth.
The reason is...they possess the spirit of prophecy..Revelation 12:17.
17. And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have [the testimony of Jesus Christ. Which is the spirit of prophecy revelation 19:10
@@bigirwaraymond7171 Ellen says you have the spirit of Prophecy right? that's just what you said. I'll bet everything you own. and anything you will ever own.. that you can't interpret Daniel 8 .(.in its context.) (This is the cornerstone of where you got started interpret it for!) I'm waiting on you!
God's hands are tied??,that is not true.God is not forced to prove His innocence to anyone, if any of His children ask about one person or another and God shows him the life of that person,it is out of God's grace that the person is shown,not because God's hands are tied. Psalms 115:3 (KJV) But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.This will be a time when the saints judge the world. 1 Corinthians 6:2 (KJV) Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
This guy live in Battle Creek and NEVER HEARD ABOUT SDA?? He ever go out?
You are good, really good, you almost convince the moderator to become Adventist, lol.
Yes, Dr. Josh was so close to becoming SDA that he told me after the interview he was so blown away at the heresies and deception of SDA theology that he wants to discuss more in the future about how to better equip the body of Christ to combat it and reach SDAs with the true God and gospel.
I.have given you the hournour of listening to your discourse. Honestly, with no harm intended, I have not been able to ascertain your ferver against the Adventist church. Could it be a DADDY issue? I do believe I heard you state your father was an Adventist Pastor? The reason I am saying that is I am sure the individuals you interview or discuss Adventism with are far from what you believe. I was raised Adventist and it has been my observation that many individuals like you have other issues that often actually extend outside the religion. And yes, I have watched many of your vidieos, but not all.
@@harveyharris9251 You talking like wicked person "Daddy issues" etc- such language and expresisons etc. No wonder, advnentist, your religion was born from deceit.
@@harveyharris9251 Fannie Bolton (one of Ellen's "assistants", and the most likely author of steps to Christ) started to speak up about Ellen White after "working" for her for many years, and using her name on other's writings. She was obviously right because they put her into an insane asylum in Michigan to keep her quiet. This is not a derogatory term, the government actually calls it an asylum for the insane. Pretending Ellen White is a true prophetess after reading her false prophecies, false teachings, strange sayings, and proven plagiarism is a mistake. Just ignoring the facts doesn't make her a true prophetess, for the sake of almond milk cake and salad every week. Christ himself gave a warning about false prophets and false teachers. Ellen White is both. Christ died for Adventists just as much as he did for the world, but adventism is not biblical.
@@harveyharris9251 why does it alway have to be any issue other than finding the real truth from the Bible, and the Bible alone as directed by the Holy Spirit with you guys? (Adventists) If I had a dime for all the times SDA have disrespected the leading of the HS by saying those of us who left did it because we were hurt by someone in the church, have “daddy issues” want to be able to sin or some other diminishing comment, I could retire in a mansion in Tahiti!
We have many lessons to learn, and many, many to unlearn. God and Heaven alone are infallible. Those who think that they will never have to give up a cherished view, never have occasion to change an opinion, will be disappointed. As long as we hold to our own ideas and opinions with determined persistency, we cannot have the unity for which Christ prayed. {CET 203.2} { CW 37:1, TM 30:2} Ellen G White
1 Thessalonians 5:19 Quench not the Spirit.
5:20 Despise not prophesyings.
5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
2 Peter 3:18 But grow in grace, and [in] the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him [be] glory both now and for ever. Amen.
If God's professed people would receive the light as it shines upon them from his Word, they would reach that unity for which Christ prayed, that which the apostle describes, “the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.” “There is,” he says, ”one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism.” [Ephesians 4:3-5.] {GC88 379.2}
Such were the blessed results experienced by those who accepted the Advent message. They “came from different denominations, and their denominational barriers were hurled to the ground; conflicting creeds were shivered to atoms; the unscriptural hope of a temporal millennium was abandoned, false views of the second advent were corrected, pride and conformity to the world were swept away; wrongs were made right; hearts were united in the sweetest fellowship, and love and joy reigned supreme. If this doctrine did this for the few who did receive it, it would have done the same for all, if all had received it.” {GC88 379.3}
Judge for yourselves whether you're being fair towards Adventism and EG White (Possibly prophet?)
Gonna have to do better than the standard fare SDA assertions.
czcams.com/users/liveLWbfo3LTaQo?feature=share
"Judge for yourselves whether you're being fair towards Adventism and EG White"
The real problem here is that you have sold your soul to the devil by accepting the SDA and EGW as the truth.
Please pinpoint from the bible verse to verse rather men writing.
SDA has the truth. Praise the Lord.
Clearly, you weren't paying attention.
Heavenly Father we glorify your name. Let us know how to test all things, spirits, and false prophets. Lift the scales from the eyes of anyone in this chat, comment section, or anyone watching this video that needs the holy spirit to reveal the truth to them. Let your will be done because you were able to lead me and other Christians out of SDAism that were misled. God, you warned us in the bible about teachings such as TGC(The Great Controversy) that is a perversion of your will. Grant us peace today that I can also continue to pray for those that are lost. We want to bring those blinded to you so you can open their eyes. Bless be your holy name. Let us always having a willing heart to pray for others. Let us be gracious and understanding with interacting with others to bring that back to the flock. Amen.
There is no truth in SDA teaching false prophet and that is the truth. The truth will set us free one and only true Jesus Christ the Lord God Almighty. Jesus said I am the way the truth and the life no one goes to the Father except by me. No SDA teaching
In her time there was no law against copying. If he used historical data from other authors, he also mentioned where he got it from. But not all of the over one hundred thousand pages were the work of others! If it was uninspired, how come there are countless hospitals, health centers, universities, schools with the principles enunciated by her ? Books written by her are also found in the Washington DC library and are appreciated by intelligent people.
She not an infallible interpreter. That’s not the official statement of the sda church.
Yes she is. You just aren’t familiar with SDA source documentation then. That’s verbatim what they claim and we’ve looked at that over and over and over again.
answeringadventism.com/is-ellen-white-is-the-infallible-interpreter-of-scripture/
Get ready to hunt down your buddy Keith, if he insists on keeping the Sabbath.
@@JamieElison No and neither do you.
@@JamieElison You make your own rules. All Adventists allow themselves to do many things that the bible does not permit. Some of you go to restaurants...some will board an airplane.....so since you all decide what you are permitted to do, and since you all disagree with each other, none of you really keep it.
@@MaryMartinez-lm5tv Ok thank you. How was I supposed to know that? Anyway, it's beside the point. Many people worship a god that they have created "in their own image". The same is true with "Sabbath keepers". People keep a Sabbath which they have created in their own image. Adventists establish their own boundaries as far as what they will allow themselves to do on the Sabbath. For example, a gay person might say "Since God is love, he loves me and accepts me for who I am". That is an example of making a god in your own image.....in other words, imposing your own standards on who God is. Adventists do the same thing with the Sabbath.....they impose their own standards, rather than biblical standards.
I have listened carefully to everything you have had to say about Adventists. Which Bible verse has the SDA doctrines contradicted?
So far everything you have described lines up very well with the Bible. So you just don't agree with the SDA doctrines because you don't like them or because they contradict Scripture? If they contradict the Bible, which Bible verses have they contradicted?
You keep saying 'Adventists love this Scriptures' whenever a Bibleverse is given to support a doctrine. If we have misinterpreted them, what is the correct understanding?
You don't think that if you are a true Christian who wants to point out error and help your fellow brethren you will show them their error in love and point them to the truth of Jesus?
You address Adventists with a tone to suggest that you have a borne to chew with them. Is that the case? If not, i humbly request you my brother to tone down your tone and speak to Adventists as lost souls that you are trying to minister to. If as an Adventist i have the wrong gospel, I am not a devil. I am still your brother who you need to minister to and win over by love. Let us not strive to win arguments but to win souls.
Thank you so much, after listening to you , I am more convinced than ever the Adventist Church is the remnant church.
Yeah you do, and only because you are on drugs or something.
I hate to say this but an idiot would say that! Because you don't understand Romans chapter 11! You really should your Bible!
@@MaryMartinez-lm5tv
Amen
I wonder if you up loader is going to block this comment also. Romans chapter 11 says you're not!
Excellent explanation of the Adventist fundamentals! Unfortunately, it is hard to get through to brainwashed cult members unless there is divine intervention 😢
2023. Do not point a finger. Do not reason out in not a kind words on this platform. Study the KJV Holy Bible.
Are you afraid of the truth? Truth hurts. So study.,,..
your listener is about to be converted.......
I hope you do! Jesus Christ is the only way. You don't need SDA to make it heaven. It's a false teaching.
There is an abundance that I have to say about this video. As a seventh day Adventist, I strongly disagree with this man’s interpretation of Adventism as a whole. I shutter to think that the churches where he grew up actually taught him in this manner. I in fact believe in sola scriptura… and I also believe that EGW believed in sola scriptura. Conversation/questions welcome
You’re free to your opinion, but this platform isn’t about personal opinions of SDAs. Most SDAs don’t even know SDA systematic theology.
“I also believe that EGW believed in sola scriptura”
No, she didn’t. Here’s here erroneous definition:
“Those who oppressed these followers of Christ called themselves Protestants; but they abjured the fundamental principle of Protestantism,-the Bible and the Bible only as the rule of faith and practice.”-Spirit of Prophecy, Vol. 4, pg. 183 (4SP 183.1)
This is not sola scriptura. Sola scriptura is not “Bible only.” That’s an entirely different concept called nuda scriptura.
Sola scriptura is that scripture alone is the sole INFALLIBLE rule of faith and practice. Not the ONLY rule outright. This is a fundamental difference. The people that coined the term “sola scriptura” affirmed the foundation Christian creeds. They were not affirming nuda scriptura (“Bible only”).
We’ve demonstrated and shown on this platform multiple times from official SDA source documents that Ellen White is the infallible interpreter of scripture in Adventism.
Furthermore, no, the SDA Church can’t affirm sola scriptura because the Great Controversy Theme is what governs ALL of SDA theology as we looked at in this video.
This video has nothing to do with what I was taught growing up. It has to do with official SDA teaching. Which is irrelevant to my upbringing. We looked at primary source documentation here. Are you more learned in SDA theology than Herbert Douglass? Do you even know who he is, at that?
Respectfully, you’re only the 10,000th SDA to say this. We’ve engaged with thousands of SDAs over the years. We understand this information might be new to you. But, no, this isn’t our first rodeo. We deal with official source materials, Adventist scholars and professors, etc. Very few SDAs actually know the system they are a part of.
The door is always open for SDAs to show up to our mic nights and bring their charges out in the open for us to examine who has and hasn’t done their homework. If you think we don’t know our stuff, then show up and seek to have a conversation and let the audience decide who has and hasn’t done their homework.
I see lots of comments against SDAs but very few Biblical arguments. Once Saved Always Saved is a popular "argument" against SDA doctrine and is claimed to be supported by Matthew 7:21-23 KJV but, as I will show, this is not the case. Furthermore, Matthew 24:12-13 KJV actually disproves OSAS. Consider the following scenario:
If a Professor says, "Not everyone that saith unto me, Professor Professor, will receive a passing grade, but he who attends my class everyday and learns the material. Yea, *MANY* at year's end will say unto me, Professor Professor, didn't we sign up for your course and buy your textbooks? And I will profess unto them, I never saw you in class. Depart from me, ye that wasted your parents money."
*QUESTION: DID THE PROFESSOR SAY "ALL" OR "MANY"?*
Will *ALL* who fail the course be guilty of not attending class or is it possible that there'll be *OTHERS* who came early, but simply couldn't grasp the material and failed right along with those *MANY* ?
Likewise, Matthew 7:22 KJV says *MANY* -- NOT *ALL* -- which means while there'll certainly be *MANY* unknown to Him that will be told to depart, the verse leaves room for *OTHERS* - perhaps many more, according to Matthew 24:12-13 KJV -- that will likely be told to depart which *HE KNEW FULL WELL* but impenitently turned back to their old life of sin.
In Matthew 24:12-13 KJV, Jesus contrasts the man in verse 13 who will "endure to the end" and be "saved" with the "many" of verse 12 who allow widespread iniquity to kill their "agape" cold and dead, leaving them unable to endure to the end and lost - *the shocking thing is that these "many" are former saints who turned their back on Jesus!* Why? Because only saints can demonstrate "agape" by happily keeping God's commandments (1 John 5:3 KJV) while the wicked can't keep God's commandments even if they wanted to (Romans 8:7 KJV).
SDA doctrine: 1
OSAS doctrine: 0
"If a Professor says, "Not everyone that saith unto me, Professor Professor, will receive a passing grade, but he who attends my class everyday and learns the material. Yea, MANY at year's end will say unto me, Professor Professor, didn't we sign up for your course and buy your textbooks? And I will profess unto them, I never saw you in class. Depart from me, ye that wasted your parents money."
Now chance the word "Professor" with "LORD" and decide for yourself if the SDA cult will enter while professing that sabbath keeping means eternal salvation.
@@nonconformist4802 What you don’t realize is that every time sincere seekers of truth see your failure to present counter arguments to our spiritual propositions only serves to help them come out of your spiritual darkness into the light of truth.
Jesus said “MANY” not “ALL” so stop lying to people with claims that Matthew 7:21-23 KJV supports Once Saved Always Saved doctrine.
@@kjohn8917
_"What you don’t realize is ..... them come out of your spiritual darkness into the light of truth"_
O my goodness, that is a new one, BRAVO
So according to you _"sincere seekers of truth"_ are the ones who do believe the following trash while calling it the truth:
1) “The Sabbath is the golden clasp that unites God and His people. *IT MEANS ETERNAL SALVATION TO KEEP THE SABBATH* holy unto the Lord.” White, Ellen. My Life Today. Washington, D.C.: Review and Herald, 1952, p. 287
While the Bible said: Acts 4:12
2) "We does not argue that only the Bible should be used for informing one's life. No, the Bible is just one of many sources."
Adventist review January 3 2020
While the Bible said: 2 Tim 3:16-17
3) "The man Christ Jesus was not the Lord God Almighty"
Letter 32, 1899, quoted in the Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, vol. 5, p. 1129
While the Bible said: Colossians 2:9-14
_"so stop lying to people with claims that ...."_
WHAT ABOUT YOU show me where I did said that.
Maybe then all will see who's the real dishonorable person, may God guide a100k people to this post so that they can see for themselves how the modern day pharisees are nothing but Christianized satanists.
@@nonconformist4802
[1] *EGW CONTINUOUSLY CONDEMNS SALVATION BY WORKS* - and this quote to which you refer is simply another way of saying keeping the SABBATH is an outward sign that follows inward acceptance of salvation by grace through faith (1 John 2:3-4 KJV; Hebrews 4:9-10 KJV and Lamsa’s Peshitta).
True believers know we obey God according to His terms, while apostates think they can bargain with God when all they can bring to the bargaining table is a lost soul.
[2] Only a fool would ignore sound, extra-Biblical, *informative* medical advice regarding physical health, such as:
- surgeon general’s warning of smoking
- neurologists warning of porn effects
- doctor’s advice on starting new exercise
[3] Jesus had TWO natures - Almighty and mortal man. When He said, “The Son of Man can do nothing of Himself” - He spoke as a mere man. When He said, “Before Abraham was, I AM” He was speaking as God Almighty in the highest sense of the word, as EGW will confirm in other of her writings.
*So, stop with the dishonest ripping of things out of context and get your facts straight.* Are you disappointed because I proved wrong the anti-SDA doctrine of OSAS, so you attack EGW rather than discuss doctrine? Either prove from Scripture that the wicked can demonstrate “agape” in their hearts or join me in condemning OSAS.
@@kjohn8917
_" THIS QUOTE TO WHICH YOU REFER IS SIMPLY ANOTHER WAY..."_
Don't twist reality, even a child can read and understands what that witch you called a prophet has said.
_while apostates who claim “Sunday sacredness"_
Do not when you worship the Saturday, then assumed that people who did worship *ON* the Sunday are now aspostates.
For if your brain was a little bigger than that of a nut, you would have realized that David did worship GOD also on the Sunday, (Go read Ps. 119 and catch a wake up)
_"True believers know we obey God according to His terms"_
*Bible*
Galatians 3: 1 - "O you foolish SDA morons, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth" , "Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?"
Verse 10: "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse"
Verse 11: "But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God"
Verse 24: "Wherefore *THE LAW WAS* our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. *BUT AFTER* that faith is come, *WE ARE NO LONGER* under a schoolmaster."
*TELL ME, WHAT IS THE REASON THAT YOU DEFLECT MY OTHER STATEMENTS?*
Go bluff your mother, you won't bluff me, without or with your Sabbath, YOU ARE STILL A NOBODY.
Allah is best in everything
But he is not best in becoming a human and live in this world 🫢
Jesus Christ is King. The Triune God is the God of Mohammed. Mohammed was a false prophet that proselytized a false god.
@@answeringadventism Mohammad is Antichrist, wolf in the sheep clothes, false prophet , devil 😈
Adventist are not christian at all, they are something els. Not ssved by faith alone in christ alone. Not wotks.
I'm an SDA and I understand completely. I can't stand Ellen G. White and will walk out of the church any and every time I hear her name mentioned. It's not so much anymore. They treat her as a god, which she is not. I'm a Christian and I believe in the Bible and understand most of it.
I'm completely aware of all the prophecies that are in the Bible.
Honestly, I think you've got practically all of it wrong. They have treated her like a god but other than that, I can't stand her.
I've never heard of the things you're talking about. You were deceived. She/they actually predicted the Second Coming in October 1844. "But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." - Matthew 24:36
I don't know where you're getting all of this info. I've never heard it before. Maybe from David Koresh.
It's not prevalent at all. It's all bogus.
Man, you really need to do some research on your own. This info is not common place!!🤪😝
"Honestly, I think you've got practically all of it wrong."
Then maybe do more research before making false accusations.
Ellen White NEVER predicted the day and hour? Seriously?
(From First Vision 1844) “Soon we heard the voice of God like many waters, which *GAVE US THE DAY AND THE HOUR OF JESUS' COMING*. The living saints, 144,000 in number, knew and understood the voice, while the wicked thought it was thunder and an earthquake. *When God spake the time, He poured upon us the Holy Spirit, and our faces began to light up and shine with the glory of God, as Moses’ did when he came down from Mount Sinai.”-Testimonies for the Church, Vol. 1, pg. 59 (1T 59.1)
Then we heard the voice of God which shook the heavens and earth, and *gave the 144,000 THE DAY AND HOUR of Jesus’ coming.* Then the saints were free, united and full of the glory of God, for he had turned their captivity. And I saw a flaming cloud come where Jesus stood and he laid off his priestly garment and put on his kingly robe, took his place on the cloud which carried him to the east where it first appeared to the saints on earth, a small black cloud, which was the sign of the Son of Man. While the cloud was passing from the Holiest to the east which took a number of days, the Synagogue of Satan worshiped at the saints feet.”-Day-Star, February 15, 1846 (DS March 14, 1846, par. 2)
This is precisely the problem. You are a part of an organization that hadn't been forthright with you and you aren't aware of the actual history of it's development. She was claiming to be SHOWN the day and hour repeatedly until the 1890s. Over and over and over again. We have documented this down in great detail on our website and in video.
answeringadventism.com/did-ellen-white-ever-give-failed-prophecies/
"Man, you really need to do some research on your own. This info is not common place!!"
Right, you have no clue what you're talking about. That's exactly the problem. It isn't common knowledge because they have tried rewriting history and don't want you looking into these things. But it's us that needs to do research? The irony.
The reason you don't find a former SDA and a practicing SDA going head to head online is because criticism of SDA theology relies on lies and misrepresentation and which can be easily exposed. For instance, right off the bat, this guy says "Great Controversy informs ALL of their theology". Mr. Myles, I can substantiate EVERY single SDA doctrine from THE BIBLE AND THE BIBLE *ALONE* without appealing the writings of EGW even once.
Right, you haven’t read SDA scholars and their papers, you’ve consumed virtually zero content on this channel, yet you think I’m lying and misrepresenting while parroting out the same tired trope we’ve heard for decades as YOU lie in the process. Par for the course SDA rhetoric.
Email me and we’ll set up the discussion and see who has and hasn’t done their homework. Easy to expose, right?
answeringadventism@gmail.com
@@answeringadventism Did you not consume my post? *I plainly said I can substantiate every single SDA doctrine from the Bible alone,* not EGW, though I believe she was God's prophet despite the "evidence" of intrigue and conspiracy. If you properly understood end times prophecy, especially Revelation 12, you'd be asking why so many "prophets" such as C. T. Russell, M. B. Eddy, E. Casey, H. P. Blavatsky, A. Bessant, A. A. Bailey, J. Smith, etc., flooded the landscape at the time of EGW.
So, with which doctrine do you disagree? State of the Dead? Annihilation of the Wicked? Spirit of Prophecy in the NT? The so called "gift of tongues" so prevalent today? Historicist eschatology?
Like I said, I hear lotsa criticism of SDA doctrine, but when the bell rings, very few come out from their corner and attempt to go toe to toe with us.
@@pawwelmussial2916 Our doctrines establish if the God we claim to worship is Biblical or not.
For instance, many “Christians” claim Allah and Jesus’ Father are the same - impossible. Allah (Satan) has no son - the Biblical Father gave His only begotten Son.
Also, the Biblical Father does not claim we are Once Saved, Always Saved. Why? The “many” of Matthew 24:12 (unlike the man of verse 13 who will “endure to the end” and be “saved”) whose *agape* will turn cold and dead in them through the practice of widespread iniquity *are former saints who will be lost* - because *agape* is demonstrated by happily keeping God’s commandments (1 John 5:3 KJV), while the wicked can’t keep them even if they wanted to (Romans 8:7 KJV). There’s no escaping this. If you argue, “they may be cold, but they’re OK” that ignores the fact that Jesus will spit merely lukewarm backsliders from His mouth, and “cold” is far more spit worthy than “lukewarm”.
What about Eternal Torment? What does that easily disproven false doctrine say about God? It makes Him as sadistic, as evil, as merciless, as unjust as Satan - for even mortal men recognize the injustice of exacting such punishment for even the most vile of offenders and have in place laws against “cruel and unusual punishment”, yet “shall mortal man be more just than God?”
I could go on, if asked.
@@kjohn8917
Go on please, I am begging you.
And while you are, why don't you also tell us why your cult do fornicate with the Church of Rome?
Or what about the fact that your cults own literature rejected Sola Scriptura?
Or where we can read in the Bible that the creation do have the power to tell the CREATOR what is wrong or right and that he is only allowed to do what was approved by your cult?
PLEASE GO AHEAD, I am waiting.
@@nonconformist4802 I offered specifics - you offer rhetoric without counter arguments.
I don’t waste time with such as you. Show specifics or get shown the door.
Hummmm, search the scriptures, you will see the truth for yourself. This person has no understanding of the Great Controversy. Read the Bible, its all there. may God help you to repent before it is too late.
Stop judging people's beliefs motives and a love for God. Just because you cannot understand or even know what I believe this does not make you right otherwise you are treading on GODS jurisdiction and we all know what happens to people who do Gods work of judging - we WILL BE JUDGED. You are obliged surmising what I belief and if you knew your Bible ALL SURMISEING IS EVIL. PLEASE DONT PREACH TO PEPOLE WHST I BELIEVE WHEN AS AN ADVENTIST I DONT BELIEVE WHAT YOU ARE TELLING THEM ONLY GOD KNOWS MY HEART . I DELIGHT TO DO HIS WILL HIS LAW IS IN MY HEART. JUST TELL PEOPLE WHAT YOU BELIEVE AND LEAVE ALONE WHAT YOU CANT UDERSTAND. SOME Adventist have made errors in our church but it does not make the church wrong because they did. STOP DIGGING UP THE PAST.
Stop digging up the past.... Denounce your false prophet and repent, then we can talk.
SDA Have a habit of attacking and passing judgement on other churches. Perhaps if they just worshipped silently on their own people would mot bother them.
I honestly think the SDA people I met are absolutely great, it is that EW that I find strange and they do seem to Follow what she says which is a bit sad.
Brother you speaking your own lies of idea.no biblical saport of your ideologies
This man is a scoffer beware of him
Aka you can’t deal with anything that was said. Thanks!
@answeringadventism good life teacher lol
brother you didn't study your doctrine well, coz our doctrine is centered around the Bible. Brother you lying to the people I hope reconsider your ideology about we have other gods. Her writings is not above the Bible you have to understand that hope you take the Theology and learn more about Ellen.G. White.
Born, raised, wondered away, returned, baptised twice, recieved bible studies, ran bible studies preached, door knocked, done outreach, worked as a youth leader, head elder, been and was a pathfinder leader in the SDA church etc. I can boldly say after all this that i consider myself the worst christian in the world today and a sinner obove all others and its only by the grace and mercy of my Lord Jesus Christ and the Blood that He shed for me by His sacrifice on the cross that im undeservingly redeemed and have hope of eternal life. My listing out the experiences and things I've participated in, throughout my life as a Seventh Day Adventist is not to boast in any way but to make the point that after all my experience I can honestly say that the accusations being made here is not true about EGW and also about the SDA Church. Please come and see for your self about what we believe there are plenty of SDA Churches around just attend and see for yourself insted of believing these lies thats the only way to the truth.
Or it demonstrates that you haven’t read the official source materials widely enough for yourself and you are out of step with them.
Notice you appeal to a random local church as the standard, Answering Adventism deals with primary source documentation and sources that hold official weight organizationally. Not just a random Adventist church somewhere.
That’s part of the problem. Most SDAs aren’t even learned enough in their own systematic theology. You guys are so confident that we are lying and confused yet you can’t even demonstrate it. You make these drive by assertions (which is actually bearing false witness by the way, yet you’re supposed to be the “commandment keeping church”) but can’t even refute what’s presented.
THERE IS NO TRUTH OUTSIDE THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTIST CHURCH. THE SEVENTH-DAY ADVDNTISH CHURCH IS THE REMNANT CHURCH (Revelation 12:17).