When I see the impact in the gelatin block and the resulting expansion and wound channel - I can see why a torso hit with this projectile would be considered catastrophic.
Wonderful video. i enjoy seeing these kinds of tests with vintage firearms. that Werndl bullet looks like a very hard hitter. thanks for the great video.
Just found your video from The Firearm Blog. Great stuff, thank you for your efforts and for doing it in English so I can understand it. Keep up the great work.
pretty nice expansion for such a low-tech bullet, very impressive! that would be more than adequate for hunting. excellent video friend! keep up the nice work.
Great video, informativ and very entertaining. The best thing was seeing how mutch you where enjoying your self. I for one want more, and I'm defenitly gonna check out the musket video!
Thanks for getting back to The Werndl. It's amazing how so many of those early black powder cartridge's were close to the same. The cartridge used for that rifle is nearly the same as the .44/77 Sharps and many other cartridges. Thanks again for preserving this info on these old guns and cartridges. PS Did you reload those rounds?
+Hugh Batesel = a lot of truth there. In pistol bullets too. I have a 44 Special revolver that also happily shoots 44 Russian, 44 American, 442 Webley, 44 Bulldog. An when it is done I can fire all of those plus (using black powder) 44 magnum, 444 Marlin and 44-40 as well as presumably 11 mm (if I could find those) from my Rolling Block carbine. :)
Hey Ken, What I was talking about was the ballistic similarities of those old black powder cartridges. I would never recommend shooting different cartridges in guns that were not designed for that cartridge. Mr. Nemeth has some excellent videos on what will happen if someone were to try such a thing. Good luck and keep shooting.
+Hugh Batesel = Ah, LoL, you were speaking of the ballistics, but I was speaking of the cloning of another nation's or ammo maker's cartridge and simply changing bullet weights or powder charge, etc and giving it a new name. It is important to note that in the 19th century (and is still done today) gun makers and ammo companies either got a license from maker one to duplicate the cartridge but sell it under their own name (442 Ely and 442 Webley as a for instance), or simply change the length of the cartridge and stick a new name on it (again .442 Webley and S&W's 44 American) or when sales go stale, take the same old cartridge and change the length and stick a new name on it, which brought us to the UMC 44 Bulldog made by shortening the 442 Webley at Iver Johnson's request, or in the case of S&W promoting bigger is better, lengthening the 44 American, thickening the rim a little, moving to an inside bullet and naming the new thing the 44 Russian, then doing it again and calling it the 44 Special when sales of the Russian faded and 40 years later yet again as the 44 magnum, then Marlin jumped into the game and depending on your view either copied the 44-70 straight or the 11mm Austrian, OR, simply lengthened S&W''s 44 magnum case. All of it really the same case varying only by length which is why I can shoot any of those in my Ro;lling Block with black powder loads. We also see the phenomena with the old .380 Revolver cartridge, copied in the US by Colt and named the 38 short Colt. But when sales of that grew stale it became the 38 Long Colt. Then when that faded S&W lengtheed the 38 Long Colt and called it the 38 Police Special, Then when the bloom wore off that rose, they did it again and gave us the 357 Magnum and later the 357 Maximum. Truth is those old heeled bullets from the English 380 Revolver shoot just fine in a .357. We se eit with the big bore rifles too with some countries sticking their designation on the old 45-70 or the 50-70. And oh gosh, don't get me started on permutations of those. 45-90, 45-110, etc. Sure in the case of bottlenecked cartridges there are issues because when they change, so does the shoulder. But this is of course exactly what wild catting is about. Ackley blew out case shoulders to make things like the 30-06 improved, etc (yes, with reduced loads), I am just saying, know what you are doing, but really there are only about a dozen base black powder designs and most BP cartridges are just variations on one or the other.
Very nice. People don't realize how effective some of the older stuff is. No doubt realizing the damage mechanism of loads like this is what led to the Hague Accords near the turn of the century.
@Joseph Satri Cleofe Villanueva I don't think it was a huge disadvantage. They really have a similar effect in battle. Both are very early breechblock weapons and didn't have ejection (only extraction existed in the early Rolling Blocks) or other features to speed up the loading. It shouldn't be a bad idea.
Neighbor here in Serbia had Werndl converted to shotgun that he used well into 1990s. Original Wernds were popular for hunting until 1960s. Can I ask you to do a video on Gasser 1870/1874 revolver? Truly an impressive and important revolver and almost totally forgotten now, not a single youtube video about it...
Austria-Hungary made some of the most interesting rifles. That bullet's effectiveness is surprising too. That wound channel was devastating and the bullet mushroomed perfectly. I like how you compared multiple projectile using the drawings, very visual. Excellent work, sir.
I am so, so happy to see the Werndl in action. Such an underappreciated rifle from the Monarchy and I wish there was more information on it in English.
Very interesting to see a balistic gel test with the old Werndl round. It is a really nice rifle. Wish I could get my hands at one. Greetings from Austria
Thank you very much for a great test! There is just something about the Werndl that I really like,I would love to see some accuracy tests at various ranges.
Great work. Was the service bullet of the era pure lead also? Seems to have quite the similarity to the Martini cartridge but those used a 1-12 alloy... Was the ejector just to move the empty case out that little bit, with the fingernail used to extract the case out of the chamber, or were you just being gentle with the rifle? Thanks for another great clip.
+britishmuzzleloaders I have two sources with different info. One says it was hardened with Antimon, one says it was pure lead. The extractor ejects the compete cartridge if I let the spring work, and let the breech open.
***** Thanks! I figured you were going easy on the breech... Imagine having to use your thumbnail to get that casing out every time!.. High quality stuff, as usual.
The issue of amputation was far more one of the shear amount of trauma. A modern bullet (FMJ) tends to break bone clean while the soft lead black powder rifles tends to shatter the bone far larger extent. As the video so expertly showed the size of the wound channel and the frontal area of the bullet nearly guarantee more damage to what ever it hits. In part this is why FMJ was effectively required by Hague Convention. That FMJ also feeds better in many weapons was also a good reason to switch to it. As an add on black power also is biologically very dirty too.
Nice video! That bullet expansion is truly impressive. Why does it keep its shape this well? is that because its pure lead, or because the energy is to low to shatter it? By the way, the veins on your hand dont look to good, you should get that checked.... Would be sad to see you shoot one handed in a few years ;)
ya know,i learn more on this channel than i have ever in school.and i'm a gunsmith.course,i only make black powder firearms,but the principles the same.
+murpheysmuskets I have a friend who can lend me one. I think the effect will very similar, as the 1877 Werndl cartridge was copied from the .43 Mauser. Same bullet, nearly the same case.
Man, if that's how they perform surgery in Hungary, remind me never to get sick over there. Just kidding, very nice rifle. I myself have a Gew. 71/84 and a P-71 Martini Henry.
How do you think the Werndl rifle compares to other rifles of similar vintage like the Mauser 1871, the Martini-Henry, or the Remington/Springfield Rolling block?
+AttackCadillac The Mauser and the Gras are surely better than any other single shot designes, However in the 1870s the Werder was considered the best of all, although the cartridge was inferior compared to other single shot rifles.
You seem like a really cool dude. Where are you from? Are you allowed to own locking folder knives, or do you just choose to carry an old one? Hungarian surgery lol
Interesting. One thing. What does the off centre, and too short hammer hit to strike the primer? I can't see any centre firing pin. If that gel had been some unfortunate soldiers belly, I dread to think of the horrible wound the bullet would have inflicted.
i have a question how much does a werndl rifle sell for i would like to buy one but not sure if they are thousands of dollars or several hundred dollars please let me know Richard
Wounds from this rifle are utterly horrible! Imagine something like this happening with your stomach. And all this in the era of curing everything with amputations, lack of antiseptics and poor anasthetics.
When I see the impact in the gelatin block and the resulting expansion and wound channel - I can see why a torso hit with this projectile would be considered catastrophic.
Fascinating! Bravo!
Great video as usual! You always present the perfect mix of scientific analysis and good old shooting fun. Thanks and keep up the fine work you do.
Wonderful video. i enjoy seeing these kinds of tests with vintage firearms. that Werndl bullet looks like a very hard hitter. thanks for the great video.
Just found your video from The Firearm Blog. Great stuff, thank you for your efforts and for doing it in English so I can understand it. Keep up the great work.
pretty nice expansion for such a low-tech bullet, very impressive! that would be more than adequate for hunting. excellent video friend! keep up the nice work.
Great video, informativ and very entertaining. The best thing was seeing how mutch you where enjoying your self.
I for one want more, and I'm defenitly gonna check out the musket video!
Your presenting style is very clear. I just found your channel, amazing content. Subbed.
Wow I'm extremely impressed with the terminal ballistics of that round. That would make an excellent hunting bullet. Excellent video.
Thank you again for your effort and your eccelent Videos. Great comparision.
Excellent as always brother. Keep it up
Thanks for getting back to The Werndl. It's amazing how so many of those early black powder cartridge's were close to the same. The cartridge used for that rifle is nearly the same as the .44/77 Sharps and many other cartridges. Thanks again for preserving this info on these old guns and cartridges. PS Did you reload those rounds?
+Hugh Batesel = a lot of truth there. In pistol bullets too. I have a 44 Special revolver that also happily shoots 44 Russian, 44 American, 442 Webley, 44 Bulldog. An when it is done I can fire all of those plus (using black powder) 44 magnum, 444 Marlin and 44-40 as well as presumably 11 mm (if I could find those) from my Rolling Block carbine. :)
Hey Ken, What I was talking about was the ballistic similarities of those old black powder cartridges. I would never recommend shooting different cartridges in guns that were not designed for that cartridge. Mr. Nemeth has some excellent videos on what will happen if someone were to try such a thing. Good luck and keep shooting.
+Hugh Batesel = Ah, LoL, you were speaking of the ballistics, but I was speaking of the cloning of another nation's or ammo maker's cartridge and simply changing bullet weights or powder charge, etc and giving it a new name. It is important to note that in the 19th century (and is still done today) gun makers and ammo companies either got a license from maker one to duplicate the cartridge but sell it under their own name (442 Ely and 442 Webley as a for instance), or simply change the length of the cartridge and stick a new name on it (again .442 Webley and S&W's 44 American) or when sales go stale, take the same old cartridge and change the length and stick a new name on it, which brought us to the UMC 44 Bulldog made by shortening the 442 Webley at Iver Johnson's request, or in the case of S&W promoting bigger is better, lengthening the 44 American, thickening the rim a little, moving to an inside bullet and naming the new thing the 44 Russian, then doing it again and calling it the 44 Special when sales of the Russian faded and 40 years later yet again as the 44 magnum, then Marlin jumped into the game and depending on your view either copied the 44-70 straight or the 11mm Austrian, OR, simply lengthened S&W''s 44 magnum case. All of it really the same case varying only by length which is why I can shoot any of those in my Ro;lling Block with black powder loads. We also see the phenomena with the old .380 Revolver cartridge, copied in the US by Colt and named the 38 short Colt. But when sales of that grew stale it became the 38 Long Colt. Then when that faded S&W lengtheed the 38 Long Colt and called it the 38 Police Special, Then when the bloom wore off that rose, they did it again and gave us the 357 Magnum and later the 357 Maximum. Truth is those old heeled bullets from the English 380 Revolver shoot just fine in a .357. We se eit with the big bore rifles too with some countries sticking their designation on the old 45-70 or the 50-70. And oh gosh, don't get me started on permutations of those. 45-90, 45-110, etc.
Sure in the case of bottlenecked cartridges there are issues because when they change, so does the shoulder. But this is of course exactly what wild catting is about. Ackley blew out case shoulders to make things like the 30-06 improved, etc (yes, with reduced loads), I am just saying, know what you are doing, but really there are only about a dozen base black powder designs and most BP cartridges are just variations on one or the other.
"Yippee!".This is why I keep watching this channel.
Good job as always.
Nicely done!
Very nice. People don't realize how effective some of the older stuff is. No doubt realizing the damage mechanism of loads like this is what led to the Hague Accords near the turn of the century.
From the thumbnail I thought your ballistic gel was a huge wheel of cheese.
+SpydercoTac Well, my dogs always try to eat them... it is food after all :)
+Peter Connell Pure lead.
@Joseph Satri Cleofe Villanueva I don't think it was a huge disadvantage. They really have a similar effect in battle. Both are very early breechblock weapons and didn't have ejection (only extraction existed in the early Rolling Blocks) or other features to speed up the loading. It shouldn't be a bad idea.
Another educational video Thank you!
Neighbor here in Serbia had Werndl converted to shotgun that he used well into 1990s. Original Wernds were popular for hunting until 1960s.
Can I ask you to do a video on Gasser 1870/1874 revolver? Truly an impressive and important revolver and almost totally forgotten now, not a single youtube video about it...
Austria-Hungary made some of the most interesting rifles. That bullet's effectiveness is surprising too. That wound channel was devastating and the bullet mushroomed perfectly. I like how you compared multiple projectile using the drawings, very visual. Excellent work, sir.
I am so, so happy to see the Werndl in action. Such an underappreciated rifle from the Monarchy and I wish there was more information on it in English.
Very interesting to see a balistic gel test with the old Werndl round. It is a really nice rifle. Wish I could get my hands at one.
Greetings from Austria
Woah I just asked for part 2 yesterday and here it is. I'm sure you did this just for me ;) Thanks!
+hockeywarrior of course :)
Nice show , Never heard of this rifle but it sure would drop a buffalo in the old western US . Thanks for the film keep them coming .
I never really considered clothing being a cause for infection. Interesting stuff!
I appreciate your videos and your accent.
I go ballistic for these kind of tests with historic firearms.
Thank you very much for a great test! There is just something about the Werndl that I really like,I would love to see some accuracy tests at various ranges.
+Milton Dye Next part will cover 50 m accuracy.
+capandball Great,I can hardly wait!
+capandball I love your videos, they're exellent you deserve more subscribers
I would love you to do a breech loading Ferguson rifle , if you can.
Interesting to see the mushrooming and the fact it stayed in tact.
Well worth the wait.
excellent test. must be fun making these vids.
Looking at those wound channels, one might surmise that the round ball killed more often by infection, than by exsanguination.
Great work. Was the service bullet of the era pure lead also? Seems to have quite the similarity to the Martini cartridge but those used a 1-12 alloy... Was the ejector just to move the empty case out that little bit, with the fingernail used to extract the case out of the chamber, or were you just being gentle with the rifle? Thanks for another great clip.
+britishmuzzleloaders I have two sources with different info. One says it was hardened with Antimon, one says it was pure lead. The extractor ejects the compete cartridge if I let the spring work, and let the breech open.
***** Thanks! I figured you were going easy on the breech... Imagine having to use your thumbnail to get that casing out every time!.. High quality stuff, as usual.
+britishmuzzleloaders Thanks! I just had a Martini-Henry in my hands on Monday.... I think I have to get one. Excellent rifle.
***** There is always room for another Martini shooter!... Especially one who will present it in such good fashion... Cheers.
Audio issues seem to be an uploading or exporting issue. Check settings in your video editor
Another fascinating video. Thanks for posting.
Very interesting!
The issue of amputation was far more one of the shear amount of trauma. A modern bullet (FMJ) tends to break bone clean while the soft lead black powder rifles tends to shatter the bone far larger extent.
As the video so expertly showed the size of the wound channel and the frontal area of the bullet nearly guarantee more damage to what ever it hits. In part this is why FMJ was effectively required by Hague Convention. That FMJ also feeds better in many weapons was also a good reason to switch to it.
As an add on black power also is biologically very dirty too.
Great Video. I wonder, what program did you use ro represent way of the bullet in gelatine?
i enjoy your videos very much
Nice video.
I don't know who you are, but you do an excellent series of videos on some of the weapons not very well known in the U.S. Great Videos
WOW for a black powder rifle thats impressive
another great video
Nice video! That bullet expansion is truly impressive. Why does it keep its shape this well? is that because its pure lead, or because the energy is to low to shatter it?
By the way, the veins on your hand dont look to good, you should get that checked.... Would be sad to see you shoot one handed in a few years ;)
ya know,i learn more on this channel than i have ever in school.and i'm a gunsmith.course,i only make black powder firearms,but the principles the same.
great video!
Great video man! I would love to see you do this test with a 43 Mauser someday!
+murpheysmuskets I have a friend who can lend me one. I think the effect will very similar, as the 1877 Werndl cartridge was copied from the .43 Mauser. Same bullet, nearly the same case.
Do you make any effort to control the temperature of your gelatine blocks? It makes a large difference in the visible results if you don't.
+GunFun ZS yes I do, I cool them to 15 C before use.
Thanks.
don't matter which one, a pure lead round makes a nasty hole anyway you look at it!
Well done! The Werndl is an interesting creature! Who was the brass manufacture? Jamison? Bertram?
+mytmousemalibu Bertram. Unfortunately they tend to break at the shoulders too often.
Thanks for the info! Sadly this isn't the first time I've heard of people having problems with Bertram brass.
I have a question ,,, what is the diameter and weight of the bullet that was used in the Werndl 11.15x36r ,,, please help and thanks , Johannes !
What software or equipment do u use to get that digram of the bullet damage?
Dare you to take a deer with that lol
Man, if that's how they perform surgery in Hungary, remind me never to get sick over there. Just kidding, very nice rifle. I myself have a Gew. 71/84 and a P-71 Martini Henry.
+Francis Borek :)
1400fps and a 370 grain slug gives 2100 joules of energy...that's a hard hitting bullet.
How do you think the Werndl rifle compares to other rifles of similar vintage like the Mauser 1871, the Martini-Henry, or the Remington/Springfield Rolling block?
+AttackCadillac The Mauser and the Gras are surely better than any other single shot designes, However in the 1870s the Werder was considered the best of all, although the cartridge was inferior compared to other single shot rifles.
+capandball
Thanks for the response! Love your channel and the insight.
That would for sure nock the fight out of a man. It would be interesting to see how the 11mm Mauser would do, if you have access to one that is.
+jeremy reed Nearly the same ballistics.
I imagine they would be the Mauser has a slightly larger diameter do you think it would preform the same?
The moral... Don't get sick in Hungary!
You seem like a really cool dude.
Where are you from? Are you allowed to own locking folder knives, or do you just choose to carry an old one?
Hungarian surgery lol
+MoreAmerican I am Hungarian. We are allowed to carry knives with shorter blades than 8 cm.
Interesting. One thing. What does the off centre, and too short hammer hit to strike the primer? I can't see any centre firing pin.
If that gel had been some unfortunate soldiers belly, I dread to think of the horrible wound the bullet would have inflicted.
+Adrian Larkins was just wondering about the offset hammer and how it functioned myself
i have a question how much does a werndl rifle sell for i would like to buy one but not sure if they are thousands of dollars or several hundred dollars please let me know Richard
Just several hundred dollars. I've looked around briefly but didn't find a definite price range.
Why is there still a ramrod on the rifle?
+Sherrifs Forge That's the cleaning rod
How are these graphs made?
When your country build walls on borders 3:34
I never want my doctor to be Hungarian now.
Az győnyőrüen expandálodott . Az igen.
Could weaker smokeless powder be used with loads for that gun?
Wounds from this rifle are utterly horrible! Imagine something like this happening with your stomach. And all this in the era of curing everything with amputations, lack of antiseptics and poor anasthetics.
Any firearm will wound you horribly. They aren't used in war for no reason.
Big is good : primitive thinking