1867 Werndl Military Rifle
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- čas přidán 2. 08. 2024
- The first new breech-loading cartridge rifle adopted by the Austro-Hungarian military was the Model 1867 Werndl, firing the 11x42R black powder cartridge. It used an interesting rotating breech locking system, and replaced the Lorenz muzzleloading muskets and the Wanzl breechloading conversions of Lorenz muskets. The Werndl would also turn out to be the rifle that propelled the Steyr manufacturing company to international prominence, as the Austro-Hungarian purchase of some 600,000 Werndl rifles from them (the factory was owned by Josef Werndl) would be the capital infusion needed to turn it into an industrial powerhouse.
Check out Cap and Ball shooting an 1867 Werndl here: • Shooting and reloading...
/ forgottenweapons
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That Nebraskan story is obviously true since using obsolete central powers rifles to guard some grain elevators against sabatoge is a rather Nebraskan thing to do.
Im from Nebraska and i can confirm this
Hi Ian, Thanks for the recommendation! I owe you one ;) cheers, Capandball
Just keep up the great work!
Awesome, have been a fan of both your channels for a while now, (C&R Arsenal too) remember finding capanball when I was searching information about revolving carbines, and loved the hunting video's too.
It's nice to see such sincere aknowlegdement, and respect to eachother.
... but in the age of 86 years Franz-Joseph I. shouldn't start such a big war, neither Kaiser Willy.
The Verdigre home guard kept the works so safe, that there was in fact no German or communist invasion of the United States during the war (or since).
Rauta Vaara fighting in your own territory takes up some time eh?
World: Who'd want to watch a video on old guns at 5 in the morning.
All of us: Oh boy 5 am.
Mr Darth bob 23:37 PM in Australia :)
Mr Darth bob 😂😂
Mr Darth bob 2pm in Finland :P
It's just before 2pm here in the Netherlands.
Mr Darth bob I just woke up, so I'm good.
Sounds like their homeguard was as effective as my anti-lion rock. Haven't been attacked by a lion since I got it!
;p
I didn't know the L.M.P. 1889 was used as a anti-predator weapon
Couple of years ago i bought a couple of mystery cartridges at an antique store for a buck apiece or so. Tracked them down to be the 1877-8 Werndl 11x58mm. I kept them around to stump my friends... Pretty cool to see this video and get the back story on these rifles! Thanks, Ian!
The unit mark on the stock most likely stand for 49th Regiment, 4th Battalion and an armoury number (basically an inventory number) below that.
The k.u.k. Infanterieregiment Nr. 49 "Freiherr von Heß" was a Lower Austrian unit recruited almost exclusively from the German speaking population of that area. The 4th battalion was actually only part of the 49th until 1882, when it was incorporated into the newly founded Infanterieregiment Nr. 84 "Freiherr von Bolfras".
Fun fact: The stamp above the "1868" seen just before the unit mark is shown says "Lenz", which means this rifle was produced in spring of 1886.
Mirdarion theoretically it should be 16th company, weapon number 209.
+Jakob Guntsche I couldn't find any evidence to specifically explain how the inventory number was made up. Your idea could of course be true, but without some documents from that era (the Austrian Kriegsarchiv should have those) we will never know...
Mirdarion that's not my idea, that's a proved fact about markings on Austrian weapons. You can read about that in the book "Mit blankem Säbel", published by the director of the Austrian Army Museum (HGM) in Vienna.
Batallions consisting of 16 companies would make a huge gigantic regiment.
The Iventory number is essential. All racks in armory were numbered. You don't get your weapon every time - but getting the coorect weapon is a matter of minutes - for the whole batallion.
I'd love to see the machines and tooling that made these old rifles.Love these old guns.
I live 7n steyr and there is a museum with all the original tools for that particular gun
"Hi guys thanks for tuning in to another episode of forgotten weapons, my name is Ian" *audibly shouts back excitedly HEY IAN!*
Nebraska has a large number of German settlers so a Czech town being paranoid during the war is understandable, actually Grand island NE where Hornady the ammunition manufacturer is based was founded by German settlers
This is the video that brought me to Forgotten Weapons about 5 years ago. Now I am an addict.
Oh my god. Now we have these "cartridge" guns, think of how destructive this could be in the wrong hands! Almost ten shots a minute! No one can be trusted with this much firepower!
correct - so you get your rifle for rifle training only
@Marginally Sapient Cactus true, true, cartridge rifle musket has been proven to be amonst the top 3 children killer of the 1800's... just after typhus and briefs elastic band powered slingshot. PEOPLE JUST DONT THINK ABOUT THE CHILDREN!
Cap and ball is a fantastic channel, glad to see him getting some attention
Thank you Ian for the selfless plug for Cap and Ball. I watched a number of his videos and they are very educational and enjoyable.
Hey Ian, i would like to say to you personally THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR YOUR VIDEOS!
I grew up in Germany and my Grandma had a book with colourful drawings of old guns, rifles and musketes.
Now 20 years later in which i had no contact with weapons, now i can watch the mechanics moving and explained by you in every detail. Since i found your Channel i couldn't stop watching.
Thank you very much. Affectionate regards from Germany
My pleasure!
Just have to say Ian, I found your channel a few years ago and I've loved watching it grow. Watching those old videos and seeing the quality consistently improve over time has been great. Thanks for all you do for us gun nerds!
love the plug for Cap and Ball. Watch his channel all the time. He even has a video on the Werndel where he does some shooting.
Capandball is a GREAT CZcams channel, lots of interesting history from a unique perspective.
Another great video. I love hearing the back stories.
Hi Ian, thanks for another interesting video (they all are). I do enjoy the older generations of firearms and I also enjoy your knowledgeable commentary on the weapons and the occasional stories attached to them. Thanks for posting from a recent subscriber.
Thanks also for recommending the Cap and Ball channel. I watched both vids on shooting the Werndl with different loads and enjoyed watching him load his own ammo as well. I subscribed. I particularly enjoyed the European take on the subject having lived there in my childhood.
Thanks, man!
I saw one of the carbines for sale at a militaria show today here in the UK. It was classed as 'obsolete caliber', so it wasn't even deactivated. It was actually in a little better condition than the one in the video, too.
Another fantastic video.
Reinstalled Tannenberg yesterday and found out the KuK Trupp now have one of these in the squad loadout options. Shot it a bit, grew to hate the iron sights and then decided to check if Ian has made a video about it. Not disappointed!
It's also in the new game of the series: "Isonzo"
@@gerulfdosinger9869 one of the last rifle to unlock, you need to heat some challenges to get it. It barely has any sway.
@@liammeech3702 I knew there must be other WW1GameSeries enthusiasts watching these videos!
Thanks for the shout-out to Capandball! Balazs deserves more subscribers.
Ian you impress me with your knowledge, very good vlog, I just subbed.
Greetings from Hungary!
On last Saturday,we were on a little trip, very close to the Liszt Ferenc International Airport, Budapest. I found a quite bent and squished cartridge case for this type of rifle. It was manufactured by Georg Roth AG, Lichtenwörth, in 1871.
Simple but clever mechanism. Very cool.
Not only did the Werndl rifle contract "make" the Werndl family arms factory into OEWG ( Austrian Arms Company", but they did it with a full equipment line from Pratt & Whitney USA.
So some of the Werndl interior screws are Sellars Unified threads ( US Inch pattern)...I found that out when I had to replace ( make) a locking screw in the Drum ( holding the drumto its axis)...it was 3/8" UNF!!!.
Also explains why Mannlicher-Shoenauer main screws are 1/4 × 27 TPI. ( special Series UNF).
I have Two Werndls, both ex-Abyssinia ( Ethiopia)...still used in Italo-Abyssinian war of 1935-36 and subsequent guerrilla activity..
Modified M67/77 cartridge.
Doc AV
There was a least one Werndl carbine whose barrel and action were made from solid brass for the Austro-Hungarian Polar Expedition in the early 1870's. I took a picture of it in The Museum of Military History in Vienna.
Capandball is a great deal channel, Balázs Németh is one of the good guys, he organised the last MLAIC World Championships and is an international class blackpowder shooter himself.
I came here via that CapAndBall video. Excellent presentation.
An interesting piece of history.
really good video, keep up the good work
spef LOL ur profile pic😂
I live near Steyr so this is very interresting for me. Thanks for the Video
Always amazes me, the rapid speed of firearms development from
around 1860 to 1960! Thus by 1917 these rifles were positively archaic.
Yet in 2017 the Americans are still basically using the M16 (М16А4), the Russian the AK47 ( AK-74M), while in Britain we've got the SA80, but many argue we'd have been better sticking with the SLR (FAL) or else just buying M16’s (Like the SAS do!).
Ryan Taylor nessecity is the mother of invention. Wait for another REAL war to break out and you'll see innovation you didn't think was possible.
Ryan Taylor Not quite, we went backwards, russia does not use 47's the use 12's now, murica uses the ar 15 variant of the ar 15 and not the milltary full auto m16a1 or burst a3.
Soooo wrong in many ways. Sorry but I had to correct this.
First, Russia doesn't use the AK12, they use the AK74M.
Second, the M16A3 is full-auto, *the A2* is burst-fire (or semi-auto of course, it's called "select fire" for a reason)
Third, this isn't really a mistake, but "ar15 variant of ar15"? wat?
Most branches of the US military are using the M4A1 nowadays, as far as I know.
Such a pretty rifle. Haven't even seen a Werndl before but I'm seriously taken by its looks.
capandball is a great channel indeed
I have been a fan of Capandball for a while. Németh is very knowledgeable and entertaining.
"Buy the gun, not the story"
dbmail545 the story was great though...
I was going to recommend to everyone they go check out Cap and Ball, but I'm glad you beat me to it.
Once again I come across a cool old rifle and when I google it Ian has a video on it!!
Great story. Fascinating rifle.
Hey Ian, Thanks for sharing your knowledge with us. Could you possibly do an episode on the early Savage lever actions like the model 99. There is some super interesting history behind them and I know the model 99 isn't exactly forgotten because many people still hunt with them.
I've shot one of these, Rolling block of any year will basically wipe the floor with it, then again, as far as single shot rifles go, the rolling block is basically the best one ever made, they saw service all the way into WW1 for a reason.
The martini henry is a falling bllck. I think he meand the remmington rolling block, which does indeed have a vertically rotating chamber.
After seeing one of the early Steyr weapons, I have hope that one day we can see Ian with the Steyr TMP ( which would become the B & T MP9 ).
i really need to support ian on patreon... his content is so bad ass
I really like this rifle. The story at the end was very interesting regardless of it's authenticity. Acts of sabotage by Germany did occur in the USA during WW1, but were mainly executed in port areas of large cities on the East coast. They were usually perpetrated by US citizens for money. May I suggest THE BALTIMORE SABOTAGE CELL, by Messner. It may be hard to find outside of the MD library system.
A submarine also attacked Orleans Massachusetts in 1918.
Im pretty sure that the St70 refers to the steel type used for the barrel. St70 is the old designation for E360.
I've read that a piece of the breech from split breech rolling block blew off and lodge into an Austro-Hungarian testers head and that Franz Joseph had a failure to fire the first time he shot it.
Given where the home of the Czech people is on a WWI map a reasonable fear of the consequences of something happening to the elevators and Flour Mill guarding it makes sense.
Ian, you are the Bob Ross of guns.
love to get one of these in Australia
When you close the gun, it makes a kung-fu sound.
4:32
The Werndl, the rifle that defended the Great Plains!
I'm no expert... and I might ask cap & ball, but I am fairly sure the first line of butt markings reads 49th Regiment, 4th Batallion. 49th Infantry Regiment "Freiherr von Hess" served on the Italian front in WW1.
This is really a forgotten weapon.
Hey Ian, wondering if it might be possible to do a video on a sportco firearm?
The company is very interesting with a long history here in Australia.
they produced training rifles for the military and a lot of 303/25 and 303/22 conversions for Lee Enfield rifles.
The founder went on to start kimber in the States if I'm not mistaken.
cool as a fellow nebraskan i do love the story and it totally sounds like a real thing
German and Czech descendent. Can guard and attack my own mill.
Cool video & rifle history.
I grew up with stories of the the two wars Denmark fought over Sleswig Holsten in 1848-50 and 1864, and subsequently the Austro-Prussian war and the Franco-Prussian war. I find it interesting to watch the development of these guns in this period interesting, due to the impact they had. This time period to me is also where we start to se war in a way more destructive way, and way less romantic as it was seen earlier. What I mean by this is how war was portrayed in paintings as glorious and blodless, to a time where photography is more readily available and the generel public has better access to newspapers. To underline what I mean you could say the same thing for the American Civil War in comparison to the War of Independence.
The action reminds of the the Snider enfield. Just more complicated
Ian, please consider doing a video on a sci-fi weapon for a April 1st video! Like the Imperial Guard Lasgun!
(I know this is pretty early but I really want him to think about it)
I have only Seen those behind glas until now.
In the other Hand, I have Seen the whole variety
During wwi Italians reserves in Austrian service, who were on the Italian front had been given this type of rifle, as the Australian army feared that they might revolt. Luckily the Italian reserve were not expected to fight with these outdated weapons. they only had to do physical labour and not any fighting because they were treated with great distrust by Austrian officers. Note that this only applied to the Italian reserves (Standschützen)
I remember you mentioning the Bannerman company in a previous video (or multiple), do you remember which one? It's a great piece of history I'd like to review.
10 months later and I'm re-watching this video, it just hit me - could it be that they were having outlaw/bandit trouble back then and the 'home guard' was actually a necessary development?
Another nice video, thank you. I have some questions:
1- How did they measure muzzle velocity back then?
2- You channel name is Forgotten Weapons, not Forgotten Guns, so any chance of videos with bows, crossbows, knives or swords?
A ballistic pendulum is a simple way to determine muzzle velocity without any electronics, as long as you know the bullet weight. As for non-firearms, I would be willing to cover some, but only ones I know enough about to make a useful an informative video.
SlyPearTree And electroballistic chronographs have been around since the 1840's, invented by Siemens no less, and quite "practical" ones since the 1860's. The technology involved isn't more advanced than a Volta battery, thin copper wires, coils and a clock mechanism turning or moving a paper.
Thanks. I now realize I knew the answer but it was in my brain attic covered by dust.
+FooWasHere
That's very interesting, thanks for sharing.
If you do a video on a forgotten melee weapon do the lantern shield.
It looks cool, the breech bit looks kinda medieval though when opened.
Ian you gotta do a video on a PM63 RAK sometime!
49. Regiment, 4. Bataillon
please more information on companies like Bannerman for example. seem facinating
Ulrich Snyman
search CZcams for bannerman castle
The house is spooky
To be fair, worries about German saboteurs interfering with American industry when the US entered the war were not _completely_ daft. Consider the case of the American Metal Company and its molybdenum mines in Colorado... which, if you followed the paper trail far enough back, belonged in large part to Metallgesellschaft of Frankfurt am Main. A federal statute delightfully called the Trading with the Enemy Act was involved.
I guess it is a big step up from muzzle loading, but damn. That looks a little complicated and intense for loading just a single round.
I would suspect it's not very good at ejecting cases, that tab doesn't seem to offer much leverage to operate the ejector
Well, it is a rifle made and used by Austria-Hungary so I guess it has to have some stupid decisions as part of the country's national focus
Hötzendorf for the win.
as far as stupid military gun buying decisions go, we (US) at several points had a choice between the trapdoor and the rolling block...
What Scorpionsnerd said. It's a great rifle, and it's perfectly easy to use, as shown in the CapAndBall video.
Do we know whether the decision to purchase Austro-Hungarian guns from Bannerman was influenced by the Czech immigrants? If they were fairly recent immigrants, it's likely that some of them would have used these rifles in Imperial service.
The top of the unit markings stand for 49th Regiment, 4th Bataillon. Cant tell for sure what the bottom means...
schana96 Acc. to “Dislokation und Einteilung des k.u.k. Heeres, der k.u.k. Kriegsmarine, der k.k. Landwehr und der königlich ungarischen Landwehr according to "Seidels kleines Armeeschema" (Vienna 1903-1914)“ the 4th Btl was in St. Pölten. www.markusjerko.at/josefjerko/Regimente%20Dislokationen_und_Einteilungen_des_kuk-Heeres_1903-1914.pdf
Now that's what i call a coincidence. I live 20 miles from St. Pölten.
And no, i did not know they were stationed there when I wrote my original comment.
I suspect a bad phone line in 1917, The town of Verdegris orders rifles and they get sent weapons with Verdegris on them. ;-)
sick
Crazy that these were still being used in WWI…
Some how I ended up with an unmodified 1867. It's in pretty rough shape, it needs need some serous tlc.
I just watched that video on the Gasser revolvers, interesting to see the rifle that the cartridge came from. Does that cartridge make the Gasser a contender for most powerful handgun pre .357 magnum? I thought that was the 47 Walker.
The Werndl pistol caliber carbine.
Who knew?
Can you do a Review on the .577 Snider Enfield?
Beautiful, weapons in 18 senchuri,
yay for running astray!
Off topic; the flag in your thumbnail for this vid is from where? I expected to see the Austro-Hungarian flag, but it's not. I'm just curious.
On topic; interesting firearm. I do like early big bore/black powder cartridges.
It's the flag of the Habsburg monarchy.
Forgotten Weapons Thank you very much.
Seems the text on the butt plate says "49 R . 4 B ." which can mean 49th Regiment. 4th Battalion or it was issued to a soldier in the 4th Battalion of the 49th Regiment of foot most likely.
Great rifle and a great story. There was a good deal of German sabotage in the U.S. during the war (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Tom_explosion) and I suspect people were more concerned about that than most of us are about terrorism today. In 1917 in the Nebraska county I live in a German immigrant farmer was arrested, charged, convicted and sent to prison for flying a German flag on his farm! No doubt ratted out by his neighbors, who else would see the flag way out in the middle of the country? Thanks for the fantastic videos.
I have been to Verdigre Nebraska, in mid June They host a festive celebration of Verdigre's Czech heritage.
During that period they open the towns museum which has photos of the home guard you mention.
They actually had a small field gun of some sort.
www.verdigre.org/kolach-days/
Oh cool I've been to Bannerman's castle
You were correct. RCBS $298.95 US. That is still better than 300 euros. The only thing I can tell you, once you have completed your use of the dies, you could sell them to a Werndl owner in Hungary. You could rent out the dies for someone to borrow for a small charge. You could reload ammunition for people. It is like money in the bank. Many ways to make your money back. It is the American way. You would be popular man if you had only set of Werndl reloading dies.
How do you write the name of the settlement? The story sounds very intresting, thanks.
Are you going to do Krag-Jørgensen rifles at one point?
Specifically the Krag-Jørgensen M/1894 6.5mm?
Kind of a cannon breach? Like the lone eagle?
Mine is dated 1870 and I do not see a ST70 stamp nor does it have any unit markings on the butt plate. Were some of these not rechambered for the new cartridge?
I am just really curious, is Bannerman still an active company? I realize most likely not, but just pondering.
Hey Ian, out of sheer curiosity what would the chances of you ever looking at a AN-94 or an AEK-971. To be completely honest I only know a little about these rifles from battlefield. Thanks
That breech block looks like I wouldn't want that close to my face. Maybe it's just because it's really old?
Nukleon They aren't perfect cylinders, the block is loose when open, the lower part is fatter and when rotates it pushes the block forward a bit. This one has a nasty finish, but looks mechanically fine (aside from that stock crack).
Mine locks up like a bank vault.
My 1886 Mannlicher, now that gives me the willies a bit.
My grandpa has one of these, i have no idea how he acquired it but it’s sitting in a closet rusting away, it’s a bummer
About those markings... My guess would be 49th. Regiment, 4th. Batallion, 16th. Company and 209th. Platoon. and that would actually make sense, cause we are talking a german rifle and we all know how much gemans has loved their strict bureaucracy...
Isn't that breech mechanism the same as on the French 75 cannon?