CUAA CAMBELT CRISIS!!! We SNAPPED ANOTHER! 😫 HELP NEEDED! 🙏
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- čas přidán 8. 07. 2024
- We've hit a major roadblock with our CUAA race cars after snapping the fourth cambelt! 😬 It's time to put an end to this issue, and we need your expertise.
If you have any advice or solutions, please share in the comments below or drop us an email - sales@darksidedevelopments.co.uk
Together, we can fix this problem once and for all! 🚗💨
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Hi chaps, VW commercial tech here, we see this failure on the caddy's quite often. Although the root cause is still somewhat unexplained in our workshop we have noticed a fairly common trend, I suspect the timing belt is running backwards / forwards off the fuel pump pulley, thus causing the leading / trailing edge ( dependant on which way the belt is running off the pulley ) to wear against the edges of the tensioner pulley / sealing flange, this weakens the belt and then causes the belt to fail.
If you look at the auxiliary bracket you will see a dowel pin that mates to the block, there is the possibility to add another (dependant on the bracket fitted) to ensure the bracket is correctly aligned to the cylinder block and therefore ensuring the fuel pump pulley is running true to the rest of the timing belt gear.
Hope this gives some insight. All the best !
It was water pump on my side and i wasn’t only caddy’s. Also leon and golf’s
Change the spring loaded tensioner for a manual one, because your revving the engine higher than oem rev limit you’ll be getting harmonics causing the belt to flat about, the pug/citroen tu5jp’s are known for it when you rev them to 7.5k on an oem engine and it’s worse with aftermarket cams and springs the fix is to fit the saxo vts/106 gti manual tensioner and the problem goes away even revving to 9k with an off the shelf gates timing belt
I would be tempted to put it on the dyno with the covers off and watch what’s going on maybe some slow-mo cameras filming the belt
That was the plan tomorrow!
This was what was in my head also. High speed camera with the covers off.😊
When you just had a brand new belt fitted ready for another 60k miles,DarkSide be like”HOLD MY BEER”😂😂😂
Toyota was famous for adding cam belt cooling scoop to their ST185 Celica.
The damage doesnt look like heat, but adding some direct airflow to the belt night be and added action you can take together with the "solving one"
INA released a special notice and tool a few years ago, it was to do with the tensioner stud.
Wasn’t much to the tool really but was for checking the stud was installed perfectly straight.
Yeah they just to come with the BKD engines IIRC
Could you put some paint or tape or something on a new belt, run the engine and see what is getting marked up. Just in case its rubbing on something ?
Manually setup cam tensioner. Run fuel and oil pumps electric and fob off the runners for these. Potentially tension up using manual tensioner and then run the engine up on the dyno with a camera that has a high frame rate on the belt
Ryan, when you get it all put back together and want to test it and use a camera to view your work to see if it worked, you'll need to get ahold of a video specialist store that has high speed cameras you can rent for a day or weekend, there is no camera sold over the counter with a high enough frame rate to perform this task, for you, been there done that and it worked when we rented the gear to test our issues along with the data from the CPU of the car , hope this might help 👍
Belle vidéo 👌 😉. Sacré travail ⚒. Respect 😉
The older PD engines used to do this. I found the toothed crank sprocket to be out of round on multiple engines. Possibly check all pulleys/sprockets are 100% true.
The crank pulley is designed to be out of round I remember reading it in a pdf about pds from vw themselves, counteracts the back lash from the injectors if I remember correctly
Just realised you mean out of round the other way, my bad
I’m sure you already have but I’d be checking the crank endfloat and making sure the crank isn’t bent on the nose. Seems weird for the belt to wear on one side like that, it’s as if it’s twisting
I've seen this on a few different Golf's and Caddy's in Australia. A Tpi was put out as a mix match of tensioner and belt. So, if you run the same manufacturer belt and tensioner, it stops them from shredding to pieces.
Check the crankshaft timing belt gear they go oval ,roll it on a flat surface to see if it rolls smooth or with a jerky motion which causes the timing belt to walk , which then rubs on the covers causing the belt to shread. check crankshaft pulley also for deformation as this also causes the belt to oscilate forwards and backwards efectivly cutting the belt . generally look for sharp edges and corners on all pulleys gears and idlers seen this quite a bit on pd engines.
A lot of VW sprockets and pulleys come from the factory oval (or square-ish).
Its like its jumping of the tensioner then getting sliced up on the tension arrow set mark. i would set a go pro up looking at that tensioner and also have a look at the soi in the mapping from 4k to 5k rpm
Change the belt prior to every race meeting.
Andy Burton had a famous homebuilt peugeot 306 rally car originally with a metro 6r4 v6 engine. It was replace with a dtm calibra cosworth v6 as the 6r4 engine kept breaking belts. They went to the extent of doubling the belt drive (stacked pulleys) and ran 2 timing belts...
Bit of a wild card idea, which i dont think fixes your issue as there clearly an underlying issue of the belt moving sideways on the pulleys.
Quite interesting that tbh had 1 shread before. I thought it was cos the technition who fitted it over tighten the top small idle pulley and it locked up and over heated the belt .
Similar issue with a 1.9 tdi with a aftermarket camber kit and the bearing in the tensioner pulley was pressed to far in and caused the belt to run against the lower casing, try a whole new kit 👍
This reply is not specific to this engine and I'm not sure of what cams you are running so take what I say with a pinch of salt and adapt for you situation. When I used to build engines with higher lift cams and higher engine rpm you can get some real funky harmonics occurring with the cam belt at different rpms. The high lift cams used to exaggerate this effect more and different areas of the belt path would resonate at different points depending on the rpm. One of the things that used to exaggerate this even more was automatic tensioners as they contributed to the whipping effect of the belt. We used to replace automatic tensioners with manual tensioners and check periodically for the correct tension.
If you have a good fabricator in house there is also the option of adding another idler pulley on the lengthier side of the cambelt path to reduce harmonics even more.
This was one of our thoughts, as well as Pulleys with sides to help keep the belt centred.
Just a hunch, are you certain it’s not crank end float? Explains the belt getting shredded on the front main seal housing. Considering the EA888’s have issues with thrust bearings it’s not impossible to imagine the diesel at increased RPM and power may be starting to suffer something similar.
Could you put a go pro with a strong LED light to watch how it happens? That would have maybe give an insight? Might be a dumb suggestion though.
Harmonics definitely look at crank pulley or changing it, auxiliary pulley don’t think if it’s stock it will cope with knock of engine with it high revving…?? did you rebalance the crank, flywheel and clutch?l together? definitely vibration related hope you get it sorted 👍🏻
Cant remember if these have the oblong shaped drive pully like the PD. If it is indeed a high rpm resonance failure, may be worth looking into.
Hi darkside i see gates make a "racing belt" that back of the belt is blue maybe try that. Although they might not make it for that engine code u could probably measure the length width and teeth count and get one for another engine. Or get a marginally skinnyer belt to give you a extra bit of clearance 🤔
I never like how those type of tension pulley they always chatter go back to the old solid pulley
Try your friendly race camshaft vendor for a steer (kent/piper)?
use electric waterpump (from bmw) ,waterpump delete plate and high pressure fuel pump from serpetin belt. shorter belt ,less strech and less load on cambelt.
Try smaller head gasket i had the same issue with my 3.0t engine
Try getting hold of the Gates blue one
Don t tension the belt to spec, little less tension would be better, heat tensions the belt and this happens 💪
😂😂 its not a supercharger belt that could wobble around
These Belts want replacing every other meeting lads it’s a race car if it was a road going time would it happend as quick/often
Given the high rpm continuously when racing, could the tensioner be that bit too weak after a period of time that its allowing it to be a little too slack?
On other engines we have used manual tensioners to remedy this issue preventing the slap. Could you possibly rig a go pro in the area and remove the belt covers to observe when testing to get a better image of things before and when it occurrs?
Tomorrow's job on the other car ;)
I would just like to add that this is common on race bikes and stunt bikes (super high rpm and alot of abuse) I would be inclined to agree with you sir. Maybe a manual tensioner could help
Seems to do it after a gear shift. I would look at crank walk. Perhaps high pressure is moving the crank forward from the pressure plate?
Sound point, these engines never had a manual box but the crank feels good, engine was 100km old
Is it unheard of to make custom crank and cam sprockets to carry two parallel timing belts? Seems clunky but unless you can get a stronger or wider belt... (which would require a similar solution)
Or if you think the tensioner pulley is cutting the back of it when you have transients of slack, you might need either a pulley with tapered retainers on the edge or a faster reacting tensioner (or both). But one question is, if it has slack at times, why does it have slack? Too much tension for the belt, and it's stretching?
Maybe get a wider belt or two parallel belts, maybe with two parallel tensioners or design one stiffer tensioner
Sounds mad max!
i'd say change all the bolts and nuts on those pulleys tensioners ... maybe it can flex a bit under that horspower and load! arp studs bolts.... maybe?? head bolts maybe.! could you measure all the pulleys run true and square .... there can be a problem
There is a tpi on these issue on Audi’s vehicles. I will have a look tomoz and see if there is a root cause for this issues.
K swap it
Ryan, when's the video coming out for that Porsche with the PD swap in the background?
As much as we love the PD that would be sacrilege. I think the plan is just a OEM+ resto
@@DarksideDevelopments I saw a K24 Turbo one the other day. Ruthless swines haha
Do these engines use the "square" shaped so called "smartsprocket" crank pulley? Could it be possible that the increased rpm is causing more belt flap when combined with the auto tensioner? Maybe fit a traditional round pulley and see if the belt moves as much?
Yes they do, fair point!
Dyno it without the belt covers and try to simulate the conditions when it fails.
Ist es nicht so das bei dem 1,9 Tdi die kurbelwellenräder eine leichte ovalität bekommen habe um den riemen zu entlasten ??
Eventuell ist das ja eine Zielführende idee
Grüße aus Deutschland
From what i saw in the video. you got really high torque, you said single mass fly. that means the crank spins easyer and fast at every explosion is a big impact on the belt which is trying to spin the cams.
the tensioner can't take the instant torque, the belt is skinny.
personally my first try would be stronger tensioner and wider belt and pulleys everything just wider.
second thing weight reduction, for the cams so it can spin easyer. prefabricate aluminium pulleys.
the cams need to be forged steel i dont think anything else will hold up.
and i bet the valve springs are heavy duty also again another resistance to coup with.
3. change the map, add a blip to keep revs stable, something like rev matching. it will be annoying but you got to big impacts going true a belt. (alltho in track condition dont think if it would worke cause you need fast gear changes to win.
other ideas... there is one but its nasty, convert to chain and use a big beefy chain or double sprockets and double chain. that will snap to eventually but not being so flexible and the tensioners are kinda fixed you might brake tensioners instead of belt snapping.
for big power you need beefear part's.
Can you reset the cam lobes or is that set of cams for the scrap now? Thought once the belt goes on these eu6 engines it wants a set of cams also 💸😫
The full module is scrap really!
Chain conversion! 😂
Even bicycle chain would be an improvement by the looks of things. Having that amount of money go bang repeatedly in an engine would get old, fast.
IMHO i think the belt is ripping on the engine side, as if a pulley isnt running true ... so basically overstretching half the belt putting all the strain on only half, but for it to be the inner half, doesnt make sense for a bent pulley ??
Everything is stock on the belt side now
Did you get a result on this? Dyno covers off ?
Been thinking about pd engine with oval crank pulley to stop belt flapping.
We did manage to video in slow motion and saw the belt flapping around, we've tried a crank damper which helped but still flapped around at4200rpm. Next we're deleting the balance shaft
Is this not something to do with a bearing on an idler ect not being able to cope with the constant higher rev limits.
Possibly
Hi i saw cases like this happened to costumers it was water pump leaning down making the belt going out but the damper push it in the movement will cut it in half . The belt is strong but water pump is fragile part that’s what was in my cases. Hope this is helpful and sorry for bad language.
Thanks, no water leaks here
Does the cam trigger mod move the top pulley out slightly?
Everything is stock on the belt side now. It was perfectly true before
Which damper you running on the crank?
At the time stock, we have now swapped to a fluidampr
Do you think its because it revs higher than stock
it wont help!
freevalve, sorted!
It Koenigsegg took a while to figure it out, we've no chance!
that was an expensive sounding snap
What's the spec of the high pressure fuel pump ?
Stock CP4.2. Never any issues with the pump after these failures
@@DarksideDevelopments I’m wondering if you’ve had the drive pulley off the pump and it’s not gone back on in the same position, on the Peugeot DV6 diesel the belts are failing when the pump isn’t “timed” correctly when replaced and the peak load of the pump is in time with the peak load of the cam causing early failure.
2.5 BPC racecar?
We said that....
Hi Ryan i can probably help you sort this problem
Please elaborate!
Are the CUAA engines interference?
All diesels usually are
Easiest to tune fastest diesel 5 door hatchback? Anyone help me with this i would be greatful. I have to sacrifice my beloved mk 2 tt tdi stage 1.
Under £10k
Does it have to be hatchback?
Yes unfortunately as I need to be able to use the back as a bit of a van for a few tool boxes 📦
Mk6 Golf / Leon / A3
@DarksideDevelopments think I'm going with the golf gtd over a bmw 125d. Would you say that's a good choice? Iv 12 weeks left until she drops and I need rear 🚪 so I need to get abit of a move on
tried and teste, use a TFSI
And be slower?
@@DarksideDevelopments jokes aside, I really doubt you can outperform a TFSI with a TDI