Instrument approach gone wrong with Autopilot - TECHNICAL DETAILS
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- čas přidán 27. 08. 2024
- When autopilot situation is not working as expected, there are two schools of thought. 2 camps.
camp 1) turn off the AP if it's not doing what it's suppose to, whether it was pilot error of mis-sequence, mis-mode, or AP glitch. Just turn it off, then potentially back on if you have confidence the AP itself is not going haywire, and you've identified and fixed the mi-mode, mis-sequence.
camp 2) Turning off the AP is dangerous. It is our copilot. Hand-flying can lead to spatial disorientation etc. The likelihood that the AP has glitched is almost null. Revert to HDG mode (lower level of automation), and figure out the mis-mode / mis-sequence, and you can get back on the proper mode. Perhaps by then, it's best to go missed. Speaking of going missed, camp #2 would disconnect the AP to go missed - right? Or is that risky and maybe perform the missed maneuver via the AP....
Myself, being in camp #1, I kept an open mind on the philosophy of camp #2.
My flight 5/13 KHIO - KRNT was VMC, but I elected for the RNAV 34 instead of the visual.
My AP started misbehaving since Seattle approach asked me to stay above 170 KIAS, and the C501 AP are known to have issues negotiating waypoint to waypoint turns properly.
I tried a total of 2 times to revert to HDG mode from a "higher level of automation" but finally had to give up and just hand-fly the rest.
Sitting in your office chair, watching this, everybody is a hero.
It was busy, it was nasty.
Was it possible to leave the AP on and make it all work? Probably.
I'm sure some of you will have a field day with this video telling me what a terrible pilot I am, enjoy!
Single Pilot IFR is difficult. You kept ahead of the dangers and reacted. Good job!
I’m currently working on my instrument, or at least I would like to believe. I haven’t started the Flight portion yet, just the ground school stuff. I can’t even imagine what it’s like to be an airplane, try to shoot an approach, and have your auto pilot go haywire. You’re my hero, bro! Fly well. Well.
Been there.
This is a much more stressful situation than your cool-headedness reflects. But that is internal. Externally, your wife probably thought it was a slightly less-than-normal approach.
I appreciate the video. It shows that it doesn't just happen to me and to stay on task and prioritize properly.
Even in my Cessna Centurion, I have to be careful eating up slower planes ahead of me. I can imagine how much harder in the Citation.
I have been flying citations privately since 1982. a ISP, IISP, S2, Citation 5. A couple of thousand hours and I still love them. At my age I now call them GrandPa's airplane. Have had this problem many times. Now have a Garmin 750 driving the old autopilot. Sometimes I leave the autopilot on and depress the TCS button by your left thumb and hand fly through the turn then release the button and everything is still engaged. When all else fails and you find yourself saying "what are you doing now" to your autopilot then the disconnect button is your best friend.
@@FlyWithNoam check you email
@@FlyWithNoam TCS stands for ?
Regarding around the 4 minute mark. First I Love your videos and flying, well done! I’m a 501sp owner/ pilot like you. With the alt cap problem I cancel the capture and eliminate the hard pitch over with the pitch wheel. On mine it will cancel the capture, then i re-arm the next form of automation. An added benefit is my autopilot will capture gs from above most of the time with this technique. I realize our old citations are all Frankensteins and everyone figures out their own techniques. Mine is similar to yours. Sperry ap and 530w no gpss box (that I know of). I too use heading mode to help speed up the turns and dampen the needle chasing. I call my autopilot “Betsy “ and shes never to be trusted 😂.
Wait! No landing?!? Can't believe you left us up in the air (pun intended).
I occasionally fly a 550, same avionics package as you, same deal, fly with HDG mode to make large course corrections is necessary. I turn in to intercept, make sure “vector to final “ selected, and go to APP. Good work recognizing all of the things happening and prioritizing them in my opinion the correct order
@@FlyWithNoam yes, I am not recommending it the owners of the 550 unless they want to upgrade the panel. Through my career it is absolutely digital to analog loss. Gives me something to do! The ultra that I fly full time is all integrated so it flys the the turns perfectly.
Nice! I really appreciate your narration!
Very educative ! Great Video..
Armchair sim pilot here… so I’m not exactly qualified to comment. But, since you asked, I’d be in Camp 1. You knew that the AP was going to have trouble handling the difficult approach *before* you reached IAF. Sure, having the AP handle it would be optimal, to reduce task saturation.
But as you shared, the old Citation analog AP can’t keep up.
So… hindsight 20/20 says, turn it off immediately before IAF and hand fly. That means no time is spent troubleshooting it. That frees you up to maintain speed and altitude restrictions plus looking for traffic. Less anxiety than wondering IF the AP is misbehaving.
This was VFR, with good visual range. The bigger question is had it been IFR, would that change the equation?
Regardless, kudos to you for putting this out there with your self analysis! We’re all here to learn and be better from the experience. Good job. 👏🏼
Another good video, it’s good to know your equipment and how it behaves. Flew an SII before that had the same quirks. We’d fly RNAV/GPS approaches in heading and vs until we were well established just to help the autopilot.
@@FlyWithNoam indeed. And all the tales of grabbing false glide slopes when intercepting from above, they’ll do it. Keep ‘em coming, I enjoy even the simple ride alongs, citations are great flying planes!
Sounds like you know what your doing any suggestions on my end would be useless,
I guess I should have stuck to my guns along time ago to become a pilot.
Great channel you have me hooked and a fellow bike rider too by the looks of things cheers
Thanks bro
You’re savvy enough to recognize that George doesn’t like 170kts yet you accepted the clearance to “maintain 170 or greater”. Getting behind on an approach starts back there (pointing at the FAC intercept). Following an ATC clearance is regulatory, if you accept it. But, you don’t have to accept an ATC clearance if you can’t do it.
Great video, great job keeping your head in the game. I’m surprised they turned you left onto final at such a tight angle. Maybe ask for a turn in the hold to get you down to 2200’? Or was it too busy?
good job understanding whats happening and taking control of the situation Noam .. what can be done to avoid this situation?
God job staying ahead of the airplane Noam
Question, Once you were cleared for the Approach and told to switch to Tower, Should that have canceled your speed restriction? I am not sure!
Questions from someone only recently instrument rated in a single engine piston:
1) Is fuel the reason you avoid the course reversal at ZULOD?
2) In my airplane, going too fast isn't generally a problem. Generally they say to me "keep your speed up as much as you can", which gives me a bunch of discretion in deciding when I need to slow down for landing. When ATC gives you a 170kt or faster restriction, when are you released from that restriction? Is it only when ATC explicitly releases you? Or do you get to set your landing speed when you're cleared to land?
Thanks for this. It's interesting to see the different types of problems you have vs what I have.
@@FlyWithNoam Oh! Interesting. In every scenario so far, I've either requested the course reversal and been granted it or requested to skip it and been granted. I didn't know there might be a scenario where ATC would say "no".
Thanks for the response.
@@FlyWithNoam Oh. That's interesting. Since getting my rating and filing IFR, I've basically done what I did in training and just requested the course reversal when I'm >90 turn and requested not when I'm not.
Of course I've only done that a couple of times, so maybe as I gain experience I'll see different things.
@@FlyWithNoam To answer your question, there are two places where the speed restriction is lifted on an approach:
1) The clearance limit fix of the restriction. e.g., "Maintain 170 until 3nm from FAF. Inside 3nm can slow down or "Maintain 170until joining final approach course." Alternatively you may get an actual fix, "Maintain 170 until ZULOD."
2) Automatically at the FAF (as you stated) if no earlier clearance limit fix were given. In your case, the answer is FAF because controller gave you a blanket speed restriction. The answer where the poster said it was once the approach clearance is given is incorrect.
As for flight idle to put the gear down, I use to do the same in a Falcon 10 and Gulfstream 3. Flight idle, speed brakes, sometimes raise nose slightly to add drag to slow down a bit faster, silence gear horn, then reapply power once desired speed/configuration is achieved.
A bit of an editorial - I am old school, and I tell you the GPS approaches sure involve a lot of button pushing at times and monitoring. The part I like about an ILS is it does not "Suspend" on me. I still hand fly most approaches (that's half the fun for me right there). I religiously do one coupled approach every 4th approach to keep sharp on autopilot procedures.
Happy and safe flying!
Pod Tri (CFII MEI)
Like to point out a couple of things, first ATC didnt ask you to stay above 170kts the clrn was 170kts OR GREATOR you could have slowed to 170 right away , second an approach clrn cancels any prior speed restriction unless the controller reinstates it and then its only valid untill the FAF. Just wondering do you have the GNSS steering instilled ? As for the autopilot when you are that close to the airport and you are trying to intercept the final descend and slow down and the autopilot isnt behaving just turn it off thats no time to try figure out why just fly the airplane you are just overloading you self and then you will end up being Jerry Wagner.
@@FlyWithNoam I spent 30 years as an Air Traffic Controller in Center Tracon and Control Towers with 26 of those in Chicago , ATC CAN NOT assign a speed inside the FAF , in your comment you stated that ATC "asked me to stay above 170 KIAS" they did not they just gave you the choice . I wasnt trying to be smart asking if you had GNSS i dont know how you A/C is equipped ! but it might not be a bad idea to have it installed, just saying ......................... Please dont be a Jerry
@@FlyWithNoam No problem , yea the speed clrn" 170kts or greater " for ATC means any speed 170 or above , 170 was the slowest that they wanted at the time , they prolly gave you that as you were the lead dog to the airport and there was traffic to follow. As for speed to the FAF I think you may be right about the 5 mile final , i have been retired 14 years so some time the memory isnt the greatest. Yep get you a GPSS steering box and you will be happy happy joy joy when flying RNAV approaches and RNAV Sid and Star. Yep i just looked it up speed restriction till FAF or 5 mile final which ever is greater. Remember dont be a Jerry :)
Why not just just do the visual?
Also, if you think youll have trouble slowing down, nothing wrong with getting configured early (gear should have been out down much earlier)
Just a total armchair pilot here but I tend agree with your approach - once the AP has given you X amount of grief, and you already know you're fighting a losing battle with it, isn't it far better to avoid becoming fixated on winning a war with it, for the sake of it, and just hand fly? And come back to it another day after thinking about it? Also I don't understand why switching the AP off would necessarily be a bad thing even in IMC? (Armchair ignorance on full display here!) If you're flying the approach as per the plate (is that what you call it over there?), sticking to rate of descent, speed and waypoints, is an AP still required?
@@FlyWithNoam Thanks for the reply and sorry I should have mentioned that I did read your description, and your comment elsewhere I think that this is being discussed in a pilot's forum. I've never gone for my license but the flying I've done has been in aircraft up to Navajo in size, and even in that category it's clear how fast things happen - therefore watching your video here it's clear to see how little time there is to get through all the tasks, especially in this kind of situation. Great flying!
Thank God for your safety, My Dear Pilot... Let me tell you that all this work can be avoided in a better and better way, with autopilot control, but you must either be ready for this type of technique or pre-order from ATC something called Extended Down Wind Approach because of the performance and make sure that they will help you.
What is clear to me is that your experience is somewhat lacking, and this is why you frightened me so much when you retard the throttle like this, and for this reason, the autopilot warned you with a warning sound, and this could have led to a blink of an eye to the stall in the critical approach stage. Please take caution and try all the conditions in the analog device and focus Inside the plane because you are not in a VFR on this flight.
And always remember that the plane does not fly on the railways, meaning that you can ask permission to do anything or save for the sake of safety,,,,,,,,,,,,, Always remember that the professional pilot is always learning and developing.